Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Kenny Leong"
Date:	21 Aug 2003 08:53:30 PM
Object:	Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !

(Truth Hunter) wrote in message news:<e164e783.0308101615.5a3d9f84@posting.google.com>...

God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !

Well, christians believe that 1) god is all-knowing. 2) god is a
perfect designer. 3) god is a perfect planner.
Combine all three attributes above and consider the following
things...
First...according to christians, there was no earth, and no people
before 'god' created the earth and people. Therefore, people did not
exist physically exist.
If people did not physically exist, then here's big question for the
christians. The question is ... if god is a all-knowing, perfect
designer, and perfect planner, then could god possibly make a product
that does something unexpected (in god's view)? If god CAN make a
product that does something unexpected to god (such as the product has
true free-will), then it means that god is not all-knowing, and god is
not a perfect designer, and god is not a perfect planner.
If god CANNOT make a product that does something unexpected, then it
means that god is all-knowing, and god is a perfect designer, and also
a perfect planner. This means that a all-knowing, perfect designer,
and perfect planner cannot make a product with free-will. If certain
folks insist that 'god' can make a product with free-will, then
there's a fatal violation of just three of god's fundamental
attributes.
So ... relating this to the apple. If some folks reckon that god is
all-knowing, a perfect designer, and perfect planner, then it was god
that created every single event by perfect all-knowing design and
planning..including the apple, and what adam and eve were going to do
etc. Every single mechanical action for adam and eve was designed and
planned by god with perfect knowledge in advance of adam and eve's
physical creation. Given this situation, there's no way that god could
become upset, sad, or angry about his/her/it's perfectly sequenced
future events.
Kenny L.
So...if god is a all-knowing, perfect designer, and perfect planner,
then any future
.

User: "Kenny Leong"
Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !	27 Aug 2003 09:40:03 PM

duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<nk6qkvkjrdluaf7eurjvjjjl426rthfasb@4ax.com>...

On 27 Aug 2003 12:38:58 -0700,

(JessHC) wrote:

If god knows everything already knows what our final decision will be,
please explain how it would be possible to change our decision.

You can't - that's just it. Your final decision cannot be differnt
than your final decision.

If
god knows what our final decision will be, and we can't change that
decision because god already knows what it will be, please explain how
that allows for free will.

He only knows what you will finally freely choose. He does not
interfer with your free decision.

Any more stupid questions?

duke, American-American

You're the only stupid idiot around here duke32.
You need to answer our simple question first, you dum dum.
If god is all-knowing, and god is a perfect designer and perfect
planner, then do you believe that 'god' knows exactly what his/her/its
product will do in the future once that product becomes created
physically?
Now answer this other question you dum dum. If a product of god does
not YET exist physically, then can that product make decisions?
And finally...answer this last question you dum dum. If the product
doesn't yet exist, then HOW DOES god COME TO KNOW what the product
will do in the future?
Just answer these questions you dum dum, instead of avoiding them and
spewing out your irrelevant nonsense.
Kenny L.
.

User: "duke32"
Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !	28 Aug 2003 07:26:24 AM

On 27 Aug 2003 19:40:03 -0700,

(Kenny Leong)
wrote:

He only knows what you will finally freely choose. He does not
interfer with your free decision.
Any more stupid questions?

He knows what your freely-made choice will be. He doesn't interfer
with it.
And he didn't interfer with your parents free choice to elect to
procreate that which became you.

Now answer this other question you dum dum. If a product of god does
not YET exist physically, then can that product make decisions?

You keep saying "product of God". You are here because your parents
made that decision to procreate. God said that humans would procreate
humans, not lizards.
God doesn't stir the pot to make you what you are. You are what you
are because of your parents freely made choice to procreate, and what
you freely choose to do with yourself, and a roll of the dice of
course.

And finally...answer this last question you dum dum. If the product
doesn't yet exist, then HOW DOES god COME TO KNOW what the product
will do in the future?

God is God, God is all knowing. He knows, but he doesn't interfer.
You can run, but you can't hide.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.

User: "JessHC"
Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !	28 Aug 2003 01:12:06 PM

duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<tlsrkvkc1i0gn8ks2f9f8jdn1sbvnm89kp@4ax.com>...

On 27 Aug 2003 19:40:03 -0700,

(Kenny Leong)
wrote:

He only knows what you will finally freely choose. He does not
interfer with your free decision.
Any more stupid questions?

You're the only stupid idiot around here duke32.
You need to answer our simple question first, you dum dum.

If god is all-knowing, and god is a perfect designer and perfect
planner, then do you believe that 'god' knows exactly what his/her/its
product will do in the future once that product becomes created
physically?

He knows what your freely-made choice will be. He doesn't interfer
with it.

If he already knows what it will be, how could he possible interfer
with it? That would mean he could change it, which would mean he no
longer knows what the choice will be. If it can change, he can't
know. It can't be both ways.

And he didn't interfer with your parents free choice to elect to
procreate that which became you.

And yet, he supposedly knew right from the beginning of time that they
would do so. Would it have been possible for them to do other than
what god knew they would do?

Now answer this other question you dum dum. If a product of god does
not YET exist physically, then can that product make decisions?

You keep saying "product of God". You are here because your parents
made that decision to procreate. God said that humans would procreate
humans, not lizards.

You're saying god didn't create humans?

God doesn't stir the pot to make you what you are. You are what you
are because of your parents freely made choice to procreate, and what
you freely choose to do with yourself, and a roll of the dice of
course.

So god didn't know how any of it would turn out.

And finally...answer this last question you dum dum. If the product
doesn't yet exist, then HOW DOES god COME TO KNOW what the product
will do in the future?

God is God, God is all knowing. He knows, but he doesn't interfer.

If he knows all, he doesn't have to interfere, since existence
couldn't unfold in any way contradictory to what he already knows.

You can run, but you can't hide.

You can type, but you can't think.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not running or hiding.
.

User: "duke32"
Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !	28 Aug 2003 05:11:30 PM

On 28 Aug 2003 11:12:06 -0700,

(JessHC) wrote:

He knows what your freely-made choice will be. He doesn't interfer
with it.

If he already knows what it will be, how could he possible interfer
with it?

God can do anything he wants. And your free will and choosing of him
is what he wants. But if you don't, he lets you bury yourself.

That would mean he could change it, which would mean he no
longer knows what the choice will be.

Exactly, but he lets you hang yourself if that's what you want.

If it can change, he can't know. It can't be both ways.

He can, but he doesn't.

And he didn't interfer with your parents free choice to elect to
procreate that which became you.

And yet, he supposedly knew right from the beginning of time that they
would do so. Would it have been possible for them to do other than
what god knew they would do?

Of course not, and your parents could not finally do something that
was different from their final decision.
And now you are faced with your own final free choice, which cannot be
something other than your final free choice.

Because God doesn't interfer with your free choice.
Is this sinking in yet. Don't waste time - you may not have any to
throw away.

You keep saying "product of God". You are here because your parents
made that decision to procreate. God said that humans would procreate
humans, not lizards.

You're saying god didn't create humans?

God created humans, parents procreate their kids. No lizards need
apply.

So god didn't know how any of it would turn out.

He does, but you don't, and you have a decision to make.

You can run, but you can't hide.

You can type, but you can't think.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not running or hiding.

OK, but don't forget, you have a final free decision to make, and it
has eternal ramifications for you. And your time is running out.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.

User: "JessHC"
Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !	28 Aug 2003 09:55:34 PM

duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<ivuskvgo6qsk8qfrnnionqm3ielg363ev5@4ax.com>...

On 28 Aug 2003 11:12:06 -0700,

(JessHC) wrote:

He knows what your freely-made choice will be. He doesn't interfer
with it.

If he already knows what it will be, how could he possible interfer
with it?

God can do anything he wants. And your free will and choosing of him
is what he wants. But if you don't, he lets you bury yourself.

You are claiming two logically contradictory positions. At least.

That would mean he could change it, which would mean he no
longer knows what the choice will be.

Exactly, but he lets you hang yourself if that's what you want.

Now you're saying god DOESN'T know what the choice will be? You're
not even trying.

If it can change, he can't know. It can't be both ways.

He can, but he doesn't.

Nope. Unless you're saying god knows "a" and "not-a". In which
chase, he doesn't know anything. Again, it can't be both ways.

And he didn't interfer with your parents free choice to elect to
procreate that which became you.

And yet, he supposedly knew right from the beginning of time that they
would do so. Would it have been possible for them to do other than
what god knew they would do?

Of course not, and your parents could not finally do something that
was different from their final decision.

Then no free will. You obviously don't understand the concept.

And now you are faced with your own final free choice, which cannot be
something other than your final free choice.

If I can only chose one thing, I have no free will. If the
possibility exists that I could chose one or the other, I'd have free
will, but god's foreknowledge denies that possibility. That's why
it's a contradiction. Are you saying god is contradictory?

Because God doesn't interfer with your free choice.

Then there's no way for him to possess prior knowledge of the outcome.

Is this sinking in yet. Don't waste time - you may not have any to
throw away.

Yeah, right, those veiled threats really scare me.

You keep saying "product of God". You are here because your parents
made that decision to procreate. God said that humans would procreate
humans, not lizards.

You're saying god didn't create humans?

God created humans, parents procreate their kids. No lizards need
apply.

You imply children are the "products" of their parents.

So god didn't know how any of it would turn out.

He does, but you don't, and you have a decision to make.

But, as you keep saying, the decision has already been made. Just
because I don't know right now what it will be, doesn't mean it's
going to change.

You can run, but you can't hide.

You can type, but you can't think.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not running or hiding.

OK, but don't forget, you have a final free decision to make, and it
has eternal ramifications for you. And your time is running out.

Ooo, scary. Your time is running out, too, you know. What a shame it
will be when, at your final breath, you realize you've wasted your
life on a fantasy.
.

User: "duke32"
Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !	29 Aug 2003 10:59:39 AM

On 28 Aug 2003 19:55:34 -0700,

(JessHC) wrote:

God can do anything he wants. And your free will and choosing of him
is what he wants. But if you don't, he lets you bury yourself.

You are claiming two logically contradictory positions. At least.

Sorry, but he lets you do yourself in. And that's only one position.
He could have invented you a a robot which couldn't say no to him, but
that's not his style.

That would mean he could change it, which would mean he no
longer knows what the choice will be.

Exactly, but he lets you hang yourself if that's what you want.

Now you're saying god DOESN'T know what the choice will be? You're
not even trying.

Read it again. He knows but he doesn't interfere. So you are forever
more in this life faced with choice.

If it can change, he can't know. It can't be both ways.

He can, but he doesn't.

Nope. Unless you're saying god knows "a" and "not-a". In which
chase, he doesn't know anything. Again, it can't be both ways.

God knows everything. Best of luck with your free choice.

Of course not, and your parents could not finally do something that
was different from their final decision.

Then no free will. You obviously don't understand the concept.

*I* understand it perfecty.

And now you are faced with your own final free choice, which cannot be
something other than your final free choice.

If I can only chose one thing, I have no free will.

There's no restriction on your free choice.
God knowing what your final free choice is does not hinder you making
that free choice.
If the

possibility exists that I could chose one or the other, I'd have free
will, but god's foreknowledge denies that possibility. That's why
it's a contradiction. Are you saying god is contradictory?

Nope, sorry. For that to be true, your final free choice would have
to be different than your final free choice.

Because God doesn't interfer with your free choice.

Then there's no way for him to possess prior knowledge of the outcome.

With God, everything is possible.

Is this sinking in yet. Don't waste time - you may not have any to
throw away.

Yeah, right, those veiled threats really scare me.

Sorry, threats are not in my charter. Just trying to help you.

God created humans, parents procreate their kids. No lizards need
apply.

You imply children are the "products" of their parents.

That's right. They mixed the chemicals and got you, not a lizard.

He does, but you don't, and you have a decision to make.

But, as you keep saying, the decision has already been made.

Nope, maybe you need glasses. You have yet to make your final freely
made choice.

Just
because I don't know right now what it will be, doesn't mean it's
going to change.

Having already make your final free choice is quite possible.

Ooo, scary. Your time is running out, too, you know. What a shame it
will be when, at your final breath, you realize you've wasted your
life on a fantasy.

Me: win (hopefully)/no win. You: lose/no win. No win comes into
play if there is no almighty God.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.

User: "Kenny Leong"
Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !	30 Aug 2003 10:17:08 AM

Quit it with your nonsense duke32.
Your 'god' cannot be a all-knowing, perfect designer and planner IF
god allows you to choose 'everything' for yourself. That's because
every single one of your mechanical moves was all-knowingly and
perfectly designed and planned BEFORE you were physically created by
'god'.
If god didn't all-knowingly design and plan every single one of your
'future' mechanical movements, then god is NOT ALL-KNOWING, and is not
a perfect designer, and is not a perfect planner.
Do you reckon that god didn't design and plan every single one of your
fundamental mechanical movements BEFORE you were created?....and
therefore god is not a all-knowing, perfect designer and planner? Just
answer the questions duke32, you clown.
Kenny L.
duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<rgtukvg03vjqbo07o0tvbq7h2heicrd9uh@4ax.com>...

On 28 Aug 2003 19:55:34 -0700,

(JessHC) wrote:

God can do anything he wants. And your free will and choosing of him
is what he wants. But if you don't, he lets you bury yourself.

You are claiming two logically contradictory positions. At least.

Sorry, but he lets you do yourself in. And that's only one position.
He could have invented you a a robot which couldn't say no to him, but
that's not his style.

That would mean he could change it, which would mean he no
longer knows what the choice will be.

Exactly, but he lets you hang yourself if that's what you want.

Now you're saying god DOESN'T know what the choice will be? You're
not even trying.

Read it again. He knows but he doesn't interfere. So you are forever
more in this life faced with choice.

If it can change, he can't know. It can't be both ways.

He can, but he doesn't.

Nope. Unless you're saying god knows "a" and "not-a". In which
chase, he doesn't know anything. Again, it can't be both ways.

God knows everything. Best of luck with your free choice.

Of course not, and your parents could not finally do something that
was different from their final decision.

Then no free will. You obviously don't understand the concept.

*I* understand it perfecty.

And now you are faced with your own final free choice, which cannot be
something other than your final free choice.

If I can only chose one thing, I have no free will.

There's no restriction on your free choice.

God knowing what your final free choice is does not hinder you making
that free choice.

If the

possibility exists that I could chose one or the other, I'd have free
will, but god's foreknowledge denies that possibility. That's why
it's a contradiction. Are you saying god is contradictory?

Nope, sorry. For that to be true, your final free choice would have
to be different than your final free choice.

Because God doesn't interfer with your free choice.

Then there's no way for him to possess prior knowledge of the outcome.

With God, everything is possible.

Is this sinking in yet. Don't waste time - you may not have any to
throw away.

Yeah, right, those veiled threats really scare me.

Sorry, threats are not in my charter. Just trying to help you.

God created humans, parents procreate their kids. No lizards need
apply.

You imply children are the "products" of their parents.

That's right. They mixed the chemicals and got you, not a lizard.

He does, but you don't, and you have a decision to make.

But, as you keep saying, the decision has already been made.

Nope, maybe you need glasses. You have yet to make your final freely
made choice.

Just
because I don't know right now what it will be, doesn't mean it's
going to change.

Having already make your final free choice is quite possible.

Ooo, scary. Your time is running out, too, you know. What a shame it
will be when, at your final breath, you realize you've wasted your
life on a fantasy.

Me: win (hopefully)/no win. You: lose/no win. No win comes into
play if there is no almighty God.

duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****

User: "duke32"
Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !	31 Aug 2003 02:24:13 PM

On 30 Aug 2003 08:17:08 -0700,

(Kenny Leong)
wrote:

Quit it with your nonsense duke32.
Your 'god' cannot be a all-knowing, perfect designer and planner IF
god allows you to choose 'everything' for yourself.

He doesn't want robots. So he gives you choice.

That's because
every single one of your mechanical moves was all-knowingly and
perfectly designed and planned BEFORE you were physically created by
'god'.

Nope.

If god didn't all-knowingly design and plan every single one of your
'future' mechanical movements, then god is NOT ALL-KNOWING, and is not
a perfect designer, and is not a perfect planner.

His perfect plan is to give you a free will. Be careful how you lose,
eh use, it.

Do you reckon that god didn't design and plan every single one of your
fundamental mechanical movements BEFORE you were created?

Absolutely.

....and
therefore god is not a all-knowing, perfect designer and planner? Just
answer the questions duke32, you clown.

I've answered it time and again, but it's overy your head apparently.
An all-knowing perfect designer and planner that wants free choice out
of you and me gets you and me faced with a choice.
I now what my choice is. Do you? Be careful, time is running short.
And once you die, there's no turning back or changing your mind.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.

User: "Kenny Leong"
Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !	31 Aug 2003 10:53:36 PM

duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<hgi4lv8qhj9ig7cifi00elkin5ceb50vcm@4ax.com>...

On 30 Aug 2003 08:17:08 -0700,

(Kenny Leong)
wrote:

Quit it with your nonsense duke32.

Your 'god' cannot be a all-knowing, perfect designer and planner IF
god allows you to choose 'everything' for yourself.

He doesn't want robots. So he gives you choice.

Nope. You're dribbling crap ;) God's product never had any choice,
because a all-knowing, perfect designer and planner ALL-KNOWINGLY
DESIGNS AND PLANS EVERY SINGLE MECHANICAL MOVE BEFORE YOU WERE
PHYSICALLY CREATED, which I said in my previous post.

That's because
every single one of your mechanical moves was all-knowingly and
perfectly designed and planned BEFORE you were physically created by
'god'.

Nope.

Oh..so you don't believe that 'god' is a all-knowing, perfect designer
and perfect planner, AND that god didn't perfectly design and
perfectly plan every single one of your mechanical moves before you
were physically created? So you're now admitting that your god is not
a perfect designer, and is not a perfect planner, and is also
especially not all-knowing...since god didn't design and PLAN your
every single mechanical movement in advance of your physical creation.
You better go back to sleep there duke32.

If god didn't all-knowingly design and plan every single one of your
'future' mechanical movements, then god is NOT ALL-KNOWING, and is not
a perfect designer, and is not a perfect planner.

His perfect plan is to give you a free will. Be careful how you lose,
eh use, it.

Go back to sleep duke32, as I already told you above. You have no
free-will, since your mechanical movements were already perfectly
designed, planned, and permanently locked in before you were
physically created. That's the only way that 'god' knows what you're
going to do, because 'god' perfectly designed and perfectly planned
every single one of your mechanical movements before you were created.
And since your mechanical movements are already locked in, you have no
free-will.
Also, do not forget (if you are even capable of it with your microbe
size brain) that if you believe that you have complete freedom of
choice to choose things for yourself, then it severely violates the
'christian' belief that god is a all-knowing, perfect designer, and
perfect planner.
If you don't believe that 'god' perfectly designed and planned every
single one of your mechanical movements before you were physically
created (with full knowledge of everything), then as I said .. god
would NOT be a perfect designer, or a perfect planner, AND god would
NOT be all-knowing.

Do you reckon that god didn't design and plan every single one of your
fundamental mechanical movements BEFORE you were created?

Absolutely.

Excellent. You have just confirmed and verified to everybody here that
your god is not a all-knowing, perfect designer and perfect planner,
since your fundamental mechanical movements were not designed and
planned before your physical existence. This fatally contradicts the
'christian' belief that god is a all-knowing, perfect designer and
perfect planner.
Thus you're obviously not a christian.
GAME OVER for you little buddy.
Kenny L.
.

User: "duke32"
Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !	01 Sep 2003 11:40:14 AM

On 31 Aug 2003 20:53:36 -0700,

(Kenny Leong)
wrote:

duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<hgi4lv8qhj9ig7cifi00elkin5ceb50vcm@4ax.com>...

On 30 Aug 2003 08:17:08 -0700,

(Kenny Leong)
wrote:

Quit it with your nonsense duke32.

Your 'god' cannot be a all-knowing, perfect designer and planner IF
god allows you to choose 'everything' for yourself.

He doesn't want robots. So he gives you choice.

Simple. God did not want a design with preplanned mechanical moves.
He wanted a human being what would demonstrate choice.

So you finally understand what I've been telling you.

So you're now admitting that your god is not
a perfect designer, and is not a perfect planner, and is also
especially not all-knowing...since god didn't design and PLAN your
every single mechanical movement in advance of your physical creation.

He didn't want robots, but thinking human beings.

You better go back to sleep there duke32.

Why? You're the one that the light is finally coming on for.

Also, do not forget (if you are even capable of it with your microbe
size brain) that if you believe that you have complete freedom of
choice to choose things for yourself, then it severely violates the
'christian' belief that god is a all-knowing, perfect designer, and
perfect planner.

Too bad that you are incapable of understanding that our all-knowing,
perfect designer and planner didn't want robots, but decision-making
human beings.

Do you reckon that god didn't design and plan every single one of your
fundamental mechanical movements BEFORE you were created?

Absolutely.

Excellent. You have just confirmed and verified to everybody here that
your god is not a all-knowing, perfect designer and perfect planner,

Not at all. God didn't want to plan all our mechanical movements
before we were created.

Thus you're obviously not a christian.
GAME OVER for you little buddy.

And you don't even have sense enough to see the error of your
analysis.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.

User: "iconoclast"
Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !	01 Sep 2003 06:15:12 PM

"duke32" <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:p3t6lv85cpqeucr3h07i4756dud6d0u78i@4ax.com...

On 31 Aug 2003 20:53:36 -0700,

(Kenny Leong)
wrote:

duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:<hgi4lv8qhj9ig7cifi00elkin5ceb50vcm@4ax.com>...

On 30 Aug 2003 08:17:08 -0700,

(Kenny Leong)
wrote:

Quit it with your nonsense duke32.

Your 'god' cannot be a all-knowing, perfect designer and planner IF
god allows you to choose 'everything' for yourself.

He doesn't want robots. So he gives you choice.

Simple. God did not want a design with preplanned mechanical moves.

Who said, you?

He wanted a human being what would demonstrate choice.

Who said, you?

So you finally understand what I've been telling you.

He didn't want robots, but thinking human beings.

Who said, you?

You better go back to sleep there duke32.

Why? You're the one that the light is finally coming on for.

Too bad that you are incapable of understanding that our all-knowing,
perfect designer and planner didn't want robots, but decision-making
human beings.

Who said, You?
What if He did?

Do you reckon that god didn't design and plan every single one of your
fundamental mechanical movements BEFORE you were created?

Absolutely.

Excellent. You have just confirmed and verified to everybody here that
your god is not a all-knowing, perfect designer and perfect planner,

Not at all. God didn't want to plan all our mechanical movements
before we were created.

Who said, You?
What if He did?

Thus you're obviously not a christian.
GAME OVER for you little buddy.

And you don't even have sense enough to see the error of your
analysis.

Who said, You?

duke, American-American
*****

Thank you God. I would never have suspected God to use the pseudonym of
Duke on the internet.
.

User: "Barry OGrady"
Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !	01 Sep 2003 08:48:59 PM

On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 16:40:14 GMT, duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote:

On 31 Aug 2003 20:53:36 -0700,

(Kenny Leong)
wrote:

duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<hgi4lv8qhj9ig7cifi00elkin5ceb50vcm@4ax.com>...

On 30 Aug 2003 08:17:08 -0700,

(Kenny Leong)
wrote:

Quit it with your nonsense duke32.

Your 'god' cannot be a all-knowing, perfect designer and planner IF
god allows you to choose 'everything' for yourself.

He doesn't want robots. So he gives you choice.

Simple. God did not want a design with preplanned mechanical moves.

That's odd, because he got robots.

He wanted a human being what would demonstrate choice.

That would choose to light up a cigarette, that would choose to be clinically depressed?

So you finally understand what I've been telling you.

He didn't want robots, but thinking human beings.

He didn't get what he wanted, which makes Jesus a liar.

You better go back to sleep there duke32.

Why? You're the one that the light is finally coming on for.

Too bad that you are incapable of understanding that our all-knowing,
perfect designer and planner didn't want robots, but decision-making
human beings.

And he gave us threats to help us along the way.

Do you reckon that god didn't design and plan every single one of your
fundamental mechanical movements BEFORE you were created?

Absolutely.

Excellent. You have just confirmed and verified to everybody here that
your god is not a all-knowing, perfect designer and perfect planner,

Not at all. God didn't want to plan all our mechanical movements
before we were created.

They just happened that way?

Thus you're obviously not a christian.
GAME OVER for you little buddy.

And you don't even have sense enough to see the error of your
analysis.

I get the distinct impression that most Christians see God like they see witches
and magicians. They all have great power but they don't know how they work nor
do they have full control of their powers. It seems that, rather than designing humans
to a high degree of precision, God had to accept what he could get and then test
each one to see how they turned out. Of course, it's absurd for God to punish
humans for being what they are since it is beyond their control, and, it would seem,
beyond Gods control.

duke, American-American
*****

-Barry
========
Web page: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~barry.og
Atheist, radio scanner, LIPD information.
Voicemail/fax number +14136227640
.

User: "Don"
Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !	01 Sep 2003 03:02:29 PM

On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 16:40:14 GMT, duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote:

Simple. God did not want a design with preplanned mechanical moves.

"The steps of a man are established by the LORD"
Psalm37:23
"Man's steps are ordained by the LORD"
Proverbs20:24

He wanted a human being what would demonstrate choice.

" I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not in himself,
Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps."
Jer.10:23

He didn't want robots, but thinking human beings.

"Man's steps are ordained by the LORD"
Proverbs20:24
"The LORD nullifies the counsel of the nations;
He frustrates the plans of the peoples."
Psalm33:10

Too bad that you are incapable of understanding that our all-knowing,
perfect designer and planner didn't want robots, but decision-making
human beings.

"Man's steps are ordained by the LORD"
Proverbs20:24
"just as He chose us in Him BEFORE the foundation of the world, that
we would be holy and blameless before Him."
Eph.1:4

Not at all. God didn't want to plan all our mechanical movements
before we were created.

"Man's steps are ordained by the LORD"
Proverbs20:24
"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works,
which God ordained beforehand so that we would walk in them."
Eph.2:10

And you don't even have sense enough to see the error of your
analysis.

And you don't even have sense enough to read the scriptures!
D*
"He's just one dog-faced-boy short of a freak-show."
- - anonymous
.

User: "Kenny Leong"
Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !	01 Sep 2003 07:52:34 PM

Don <calldonREMOVE@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<j787lvk09sitdi8ku0mv11sbc29cpsddks@4ax.com>...

On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 16:40:14 GMT, duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote:

Simple. God did not want a design with preplanned mechanical moves.

"The steps of a man are established by the LORD"
Psalm37:23

"Man's steps are ordained by the LORD"
Proverbs20:24

He wanted a human being what would demonstrate choice.

" I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not in himself,
Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps."
Jer.10:23

He didn't want robots, but thinking human beings.

"Man's steps are ordained by the LORD"
Proverbs20:24

"The LORD nullifies the counsel of the nations;
He frustrates the plans of the peoples."
Psalm33:10

Too bad that you are incapable of understanding that our all-knowing,
perfect designer and planner didn't want robots, but decision-making
human beings.

"Man's steps are ordained by the LORD"
Proverbs20:24

"just as He chose us in Him BEFORE the foundation of the world, that
we would be holy and blameless before Him."
Eph.1:4

Not at all. God didn't want to plan all our mechanical movements
before we were created.

"Man's steps are ordained by the LORD"
Proverbs20:24

"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works,
which God ordained beforehand so that we would walk in them."
Eph.2:10

And you don't even have sense enough to see the error of your
analysis.

And you don't even have sense enough to read the scriptures!

D*

"He's just one dog-faced-boy short of a freak-show."
- - anonymous

Looks like it's well and truly GAME OVER for dukey32, that dum dum.
Kenny L.
.

User: "Don"
Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !	02 Sep 2003 01:16:03 PM

On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 20:02:29 GMT, Don <calldonREMOVE@earthlink.net>
wrote:

On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 16:40:14 GMT, duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote:

Simple. God did not want a design with preplanned mechanical moves.

"The steps of a man are established by the LORD"
Psalm37:23

"Man's steps are ordained by the LORD"
Proverbs20:24

He wanted a human being what would demonstrate choice.

" I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not in himself,
Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps."
Jer.10:23

He didn't want robots, but thinking human beings.

"Man's steps are ordained by the LORD"
Proverbs20:24

"The LORD nullifies the counsel of the nations;
He frustrates the plans of the peoples."
Psalm33:10

Too bad that you are incapable of understanding that our all-knowing,
perfect designer and planner didn't want robots, but decision-making
human beings.

"Man's steps are ordained by the LORD"
Proverbs20:24

"just as He chose us in Him BEFORE the foundation of the world, that
we would be holy and blameless before Him."
Eph.1:4

Not at all. God didn't want to plan all our mechanical movements
before we were created.

"Man's steps are ordained by the LORD"
Proverbs20:24

"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works,
which God ordained beforehand so that we would walk in them."
Eph.2:10

And you don't even have sense enough to see the error of your
analysis.

And you don't even have sense enough to read the scriptures!

DUKE, I notice you completely ignored my post above. Why is that? Do
you believe the clear message of the scriptures?
D*
"He's just one dog-faced-boy short of a freak-show."
- - anonymous
.

User: "Kenny Leong"
Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !	01 Sep 2003 08:12:28 PM

duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<p3t6lv85cpqeucr3h07i4756dud6d0u78i@4ax.com>...

On 31 Aug 2003 20:53:36 -0700,

(Kenny Leong)
wrote:

duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<hgi4lv8qhj9ig7cifi00elkin5ceb50vcm@4ax.com>...

On 30 Aug 2003 08:17:08 -0700,

(Kenny Leong)
wrote:

Quit it with your nonsense duke32.

Your 'god' cannot be a all-knowing, perfect designer and planner IF
god allows you to choose 'everything' for yourself.

He doesn't want robots. So he gives you choice.

Simple. God did not want a design with preplanned mechanical moves.

No duke32, you moron. I didn't ask you a question. I told you that
god's product never had any choice because a all-knowing, perfect
designer and perfect planner all-knowingly designs and plans every
single mechanical move for his/her/its product BEFORE the product is
even created physically.
Due to the attributes of 'god', namely ALL-KNOWING, PERFECT DESIGNER,
and PERFECT PLANNER, this 'god' cannot create a product that does
something that will ever do something unexpected. This is because
'god' chose everything perfectly BEFORE you were even created
physically.
I already told you to consider the PERIOD just after 'god' had
finished designing and planning YOU, but had NOT YET created you
physically. Do you mean to tell everybody here that all your moves are
not yet locked in and fixed, and therefore god is not all-knowing?
You never answer the question because you're a moron. You never
address these issues, but instead try to divert attention to your
other warped self-made rubbish (as others have correctly pointed out
your characteristics).
Also, Don gave examples from your 'official literature' that states
that 'god' designed and planned your every mechanical movement before
you were even created physically. Go argue against your fairytale
book, you idiot.
Note, if your brain can cope with it without blowing up...the word
'ordained' means "ordered to happen".
Let me quote those passages again just so that you can take a good
look at them once again.
"Man's steps are ordained by the LORD"
Proverbs20:24
" I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not in himself,
Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps."
Jer.10:23
"The LORD nullifies the counsel of the nations;
He frustrates the plans of the peoples."
Psalm33:10
"just as He chose us in Him BEFORE the foundation of the world, that
we would be holy and blameless before Him."
Eph.1:4
"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works,
which God ordained beforehand so that we would walk in them."
Eph.2:10
Kenny L.

duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****

User: "duke32"
Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !	02 Sep 2003 07:16:16 AM

On 1 Sep 2003 18:12:28 -0700,

(Kenny Leong)
wrote:

Due to the attributes of 'god', namely ALL-KNOWING, PERFECT DESIGNER,
and PERFECT PLANNER, this 'god' cannot create a product that does
something that will ever do something unexpected. This is because
'god' chose everything perfectly BEFORE you were even created
physically.

But he doesn't interfer.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.

User: "angryjohn"
Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !	02 Sep 2003 06:21:39 PM

On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 12:16:16 GMT, duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote:

On 1 Sep 2003 18:12:28 -0700,

(Kenny Leong)
wrote:

But he doesn't interfer.

So your "god" has never lifted a finger. Lol
aa#2106
.

User: "Kenny Leong"
Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !	02 Sep 2003 11:51:14 PM

angryjohn <john@angryjohn.net> wrote in message news:<af9alvggahd2a9bsu14votie4trsqlabkp@4ax.com>...

On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 12:16:16 GMT, duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote:

On 1 Sep 2003 18:12:28 -0700,

(Kenny Leong)
wrote:

But he doesn't interfer.

So your "god" has never lifted a finger. Lol
aa#2106

hahahahahaha!! His 'god' doesn't interfere hahahaha!!! duke32 the
moron must have some amnesia about the 40 days 40 nights massacre that
god carried out at one stage hehehe. God doesn't interfere he says
hahahaha!!!!
Kenny L.
.

User: "JessHC"
Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !	02 Sep 2003 12:06:34 PM

duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<6b29lvgqmmbev1cccar81vbcpc9e6n4lge@4ax.com>...

On 1 Sep 2003 18:12:28 -0700,

(Kenny Leong)
wrote:

But he doesn't interfer.

He doesn't have to interfere (at 61 you should know how to spell that
word); he's the Supreme Watchmaker, who knows how everything is going
to unfold after he starts the universe in motion. He made the
universe knowing exactly how everything would ever happen, because
he's perfect. Oops.
.

User: "duke32"
Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !	02 Sep 2003 12:40:44 PM

On 2 Sep 2003 10:06:34 -0700,

(JessHC) wrote:

But he doesn't interfer.

Yep, he knew before he created the universe if you would screw
yourself in the ground. See, he doesn't interfer.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.

User: "Don"
Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !	02 Sep 2003 02:03:41 PM

On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 17:40:44 GMT, duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote:

On 2 Sep 2003 10:06:34 -0700,

(JessHC) wrote:

But he doesn't interfer.

Yep, he knew before he created the universe if you would screw
yourself in the ground.

"Man's steps are ordained by the LORD"
Proverbs20:24
"The steps of a man are established by the LORD"
Psalm37:23

See, he doesn't interfer.

"The LORD nullifies the counsel of the nations;
He frustrates the plans of the peoples."
Psalm33:10

See, he doesn't interfer.

Can you say NULLIFIES?
nul·li·fy
tr.v. nul·li·fied, nul·li·fy·ing, nul·li·fies
1) To make null; invalidate.
2) To counteract the force or effectiveness of.
What part of THE LORD NULLIFIES to you not understand?

duke, American-American

Can you read?
D*
"He's just one dog-faced-boy short of a freak-show."
- - anonymous
.

User: "duke32"
Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !	02 Sep 2003 05:10:11 PM

On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 19:03:41 GMT, Don <calldonREMOVE@earthlink.net>
wrote:

"The LORD nullifies the counsel of the nations;
He frustrates the plans of the peoples."
Psalm33:10

See, he doesn't interfer.

Can you say NULLIFIES?
What part of THE LORD NULLIFIES to you not understand?
Can you read?
D*

I harden your heart.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.

User: "Kenny Leong"
Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !	06 Sep 2003 09:03:52 AM

duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<a25alv0iq4l5liau4metnjkfiaodf8d398@4ax.com>...

I harden your heart.

The only hardened thing around here is your concrete head dukey.
Kenny L.
.

User: "duke32"
Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !	06 Sep 2003 01:41:37 PM

On 6 Sep 2003 07:03:52 -0700,

(Kenny Leong)
wrote:

duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<a25alv0iq4l5liau4metnjkfiaodf8d398@4ax.com>...

I harden your heart.

The only hardened thing around here is your concrete head dukey.

Don't look now, but your's is leaking.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.

User: "Kenny Leong"
Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !	13 Sep 2003 10:15:05 PM

duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<ufaklv0rj7ha38chr7ecs9kb206e8me6oq@4ax.com>...

On 6 Sep 2003 07:03:52 -0700,

(Kenny Leong)
wrote:

duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<a25alv0iq4l5liau4metnjkfiaodf8d398@4ax.com>...

I harden your heart.

The only hardened thing around here is your concrete head dukey.

Don't look now, but your's is leaking.

duke, American-American

Nope..won't dukey ... won't fall for your evil trick there.
Kenny L.
.

User: "JessHC"
Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !	28 Aug 2003 12:30:40 AM

duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<nk6qkvkjrdluaf7eurjvjjjl426rthfasb@4ax.com>...

On 27 Aug 2003 12:38:58 -0700,

(JessHC) wrote:

If god knows everything already knows what our final decision will be,
please explain how it would be possible to change our decision.

You can't - that's just it. Your final decision cannot be differnt
than your final decision.

Fine. Then we lack free will. The outcome is predetermined. That's
what "predeterminism" means.

If
god knows what our final decision will be, and we can't change that
decision because god already knows what it will be, please explain how
that allows for free will.

He only knows what you will finally freely choose. He does not
interfer with your free decision.

Then why bother? If the decision is already made, that means I can't
change it; god's knowing my final decision ensures that. If I can't
change the decision, that means it's predetermined whether or not I'm
going to heaven or hell. If it's predetermined whether I'm going to
heaven or hell, then it doesn't matter what decisions I make, because
it's predetermined. Hence, there is no free will. I am not free to
change the final outcome.
Just one more in a list of good reasons to not believe in god, this
contradiction between "free will" and "predetermination." Can't have
both.

Any more stupid questions?

The questions only seem stupid to you because you're so sorely lacking
in the ability to think clearly; maybe it's an act, though. Just
because you don't like them, doesn't mean they're stupid. In fact,
it's a good indication that they're making you uncomfortable. Like
soCode said, "since the outcome is known, it is only an illusion of a
decision." That's what predetermination is all about; an outcome that
can't be altered. Any more stupid statements? Wait, that was one of
those stupid questions you mentioned; of COURSE you'll make more
stupid statements. That appears to be your reason for being here.
.

User: "duke32"
Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !	28 Aug 2003 05:17:13 PM

On 28 Aug 2003 11:01:45 -0700,

(JessHC) wrote:

If god knows the outcome, the outcome is predetermined.

But not your final free choice. And that's the key. He knows, but
you don't, and you have to come to grips with what that will be.

It's not yet made. You final free decision is yet to come.

Great, that means I haven't made the decision at that future point.
But you've already said that god knows what my decision will be. That
means I've already made the decision in the future;

Rest assured that at some point in the future, you will have already
make the decision.
What's it going to be. God knows, but you and I don't. I'm glad I'm
not you.

Will it be a surprize to god? If not, then the decision is already
made.

He knows right know if you are going to finally and freely condemn
yourself, or not.

Not according to you. You're claiming "man has free will" (which can
only mean god doesn't know what we're going to do) AND "God already
knows every choice everyone will make" (which can only mean everything
is predetermined).

Oh, he knows, but it's a mystery to you. You still have to come to
grips with that decision.

So it's not an act? You really are this dim-witted? Or are you're
just trying to distract me from all those other questions you can't
answer?

Oh, nooooooooo. It's not an act. Think about it. Think about that
decision with eternal ramifications. Be careful.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.

User: "JessHC"
Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !	28 Aug 2003 09:46:24 PM

duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<8fvskv409v2uohu5fbvl3ih1vj9hqum6uo@4ax.com>...

On 28 Aug 2003 11:01:45 -0700,

(JessHC) wrote:

If god knows the outcome, the outcome is predetermined.

But not your final free choice. And that's the key. He knows, but
you don't, and you have to come to grips with what that will be.

Your fierce stupidity often boggles the mind. It doesn't matter if I
don't know the predetermined outcome. God does. My not knowing
doesn't have any impact on the matter, because god already knows.
That's what makes it predetermined. My final free choice is already
known by god; I can't change it. That is the definition of
predetermination; an event the outcome of which can't be altered.

It's not yet made. You final free decision is yet to come.

Great, that means I haven't made the decision at that future point.
But you've already said that god knows what my decision will be. That
means I've already made the decision in the future;

Rest assured that at some point in the future, you will have already
make the decision.

Fine. That means the decision I make is predetermined. I cannot make
any other choice. Free will goes out the window. Bye bye.

What's it going to be. God knows, but you and I don't. I'm glad I'm
not you.

Why? You just admitted you don't know the outcome. Maybe I've made
the right choice, and you've made the wrong choice. If that's true,
I'm glad I'm not you. Well, really, I'm glad I'm not you either way.

Will it be a surprize to god? If not, then the decision is already
made.

He knows right know if you are going to finally and freely condemn
yourself, or not.

Then how would it be possible for me to affect a change on my own
life? God already knows my choice. He can't be surprized. There's
nothing I can do to change the fact that god possesses that
information. It doesn't matter, then, how I live my life (well,
except to me); the matter is already settled. Why is this so
difficult for you to understand?

Oh, he knows, but it's a mystery to you. You still have to come to
grips with that decision.

This concept is just completely beyond you. That's okay.

So it's not an act? You really are this dim-witted? Or are you're
just trying to distract me from all those other questions you can't
answer?

Oh, nooooooooo. It's not an act.

You really should think about what you say a little more before you
say it.

Think about it. Think about that
decision with eternal ramifications. Be careful.

Why? You said yourself the decision has already been made, although
you seem to be able to hold at least two contradictory thoughts at the
same time in your little brain.
Actually, I have thought about it, a whole lot, which is why I think
the whole illogical mishmash is a load of crap.
.

User: "Charles P"
Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !	29 Aug 2003 08:32:32 AM

"JessHC" <jesshc@phantomemail.com> wrote in message

Why? You said yourself the decision has already been made, although
you seem to be able to hold at least two contradictory thoughts at the
same time in your little brain.

These people believe all sorts of stuff that is totally impossible and
logically inconsistent. The foundation of their dogma is that one
equals three. They will argue with you forever, and they don't
care if their position is nonsensical. The position they hold is
driven by emotional needs, not logic.
.

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