| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Kenny Leong" |
| Date: |
21 Aug 2003 08:53:30 PM |
| Object: |
Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
(Truth Hunter) wrote in message news:<e164e783.0308101615.5a3d9f84@posting.google.com>...
God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !
Well, christians believe that 1) god is all-knowing. 2) god is a
perfect designer. 3) god is a perfect planner.
Combine all three attributes above and consider the following
things...
First...according to christians, there was no earth, and no people
before 'god' created the earth and people. Therefore, people did not
exist physically exist.
If people did not physically exist, then here's big question for the
christians. The question is ... if god is a all-knowing, perfect
designer, and perfect planner, then could god possibly make a product
that does something unexpected (in god's view)? If god CAN make a
product that does something unexpected to god (such as the product has
true free-will), then it means that god is not all-knowing, and god is
not a perfect designer, and god is not a perfect planner.
If god CANNOT make a product that does something unexpected, then it
means that god is all-knowing, and god is a perfect designer, and also
a perfect planner. This means that a all-knowing, perfect designer,
and perfect planner cannot make a product with free-will. If certain
folks insist that 'god' can make a product with free-will, then
there's a fatal violation of just three of god's fundamental
attributes.
So ... relating this to the apple. If some folks reckon that god is
all-knowing, a perfect designer, and perfect planner, then it was god
that created every single event by perfect all-knowing design and
planning..including the apple, and what adam and eve were going to do
etc. Every single mechanical action for adam and eve was designed and
planned by god with perfect knowledge in advance of adam and eve's
physical creation. Given this situation, there's no way that god could
become upset, sad, or angry about his/her/it's perfectly sequenced
future events.
Kenny L.
So...if god is a all-knowing, perfect designer, and perfect planner,
then any future
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| User: "Barry OGrady" |
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| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
04 Sep 2003 02:16:56 AM |
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On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 21:43:13 -0400, angryjohn <john@angryjohn.net> wrote:
On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 17:49:59 GMT, duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote:
On Thu, 04 Sep 2003 00:18:21 +1000, Barry OGrady
<god_freee_jones@hotmail.com> wrote:
Your all knowing God doesn't know?
I am an atheist because there are no gods.
Well, you will then get to spend all eternity with yourself and nobody
else. In the meantime, as for myself, I hope to spend all eternity
peacefully in the arms of our loving God.
Huh?
aa#2106
Duke is gay?
-Barry
========
Web page: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~barry.og
Atheist, radio scanner, LIPD information.
Voicemail/fax number +14136227640
.
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| User: "Karen H Jarvis" |
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| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
03 Sep 2003 12:56:45 PM |
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duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote: ...
On Thu, 04 Sep 2003 00:18:21 +1000, Barry OGrady
<god_freee_jones@hotmail.com> wrote:
Your all knowing God doesn't know?
I am an atheist because there are no gods.
Well, you will then get to spend all eternity with yourself and nobody
else. In the meantime, as for myself, I hope to spend all eternity
peacefully in the arms of our loving God.
Won't it be a tad crowded?
duke, merkin-pillock
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
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| User: "Barry OGrady" |
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| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
04 Sep 2003 02:16:54 AM |
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On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 17:56:45 GMT, Karen H Jarvis <now@new.home> wrote:
duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote: ...
On Thu, 04 Sep 2003 00:18:21 +1000, Barry OGrady
<god_freee_jones@hotmail.com> wrote:
Your all knowing God doesn't know?
I am an atheist because there are no gods.
Well, you will then get to spend all eternity with yourself and nobody
else. In the meantime, as for myself, I hope to spend all eternity
peacefully in the arms of our loving God.
Won't it be a tad crowded?
Nope. Each believer will have their own God, yet there will still be only one God.
You will be aware that in Christian maths, 1 + 1 + 1 = 1, but in heaven, 1 + 1 + ........
still only equals 1.
Don't try to understand it. Just believe.
duke, merkin-pillock
*****
-Barry
========
Web page: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~barry.og
Atheist, radio scanner, LIPD information.
Voicemail/fax number +14136227640
.
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| User: "Dr. Smartass" |
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| Title: TQOTM Nomination--Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
04 Sep 2003 11:58:30 AM |
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Barry OGrady <god_freee_jones@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:0npdlvorl3joguugcs14pp088njikmcfj1@4ax.com:
On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 17:56:45 GMT, Karen H Jarvis <now@new.home> wrote:
Won't it be a tad crowded?
IronyMeter == 0; ' turned off as precaution, because it's an O'Grady post
Nope. Each believer will have their own God, yet there will still be
only one God. You will be aware that in Christian maths, 1 + 1 + 1 =
1, but in heaven, 1 + 1 + ........ still only equals 1.
Don't try to understand it. Just believe.
IronyMeter == 1;
Seconds?
--
Dr. Smartass
BAAWA Knight of Heckling -- a.a. #1939
"And the knowledge that they fear
Is a weapon to be used against them."
--Rush, "The Weapon"
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| User: "*Nemo*" |
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| Title: Re: TQOTM Nomination--Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
06 Sep 2003 04:21:12 AM |
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In article <Xns93EC7A0A63B7Baskifyouwantit@216.77.188.51>,
"Dr. Smartass" <gekiskivviesdo@astroboyskivviesmail.com> wrote:
Barry OGrady <god_freee_jones@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:0npdlvorl3joguugcs14pp088njikmcfj1@4ax.com:
On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 17:56:45 GMT, Karen H Jarvis <now@new.home> wrote:
Won't it be a tad crowded?
IronyMeter == 0; ' turned off as precaution, because it's an O'Grady post
Nope. Each believer will have their own God, yet there will still be
only one God. You will be aware that in Christian maths, 1 + 1 + 1 =
1, but in heaven, 1 + 1 + ........ still only equals 1.
Don't try to understand it. Just believe.
IronyMeter == 1;
Seconds?
Dr. S...
On review of Mr. OGrady's posts, it appears that he is an atheist. I
have moved this to AQOTM in accordance with the posted rules.
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
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| User: "Dr. Smartass" |
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| Title: Re: TQOTM Nomination--Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
06 Sep 2003 05:10:49 PM |
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*Nemo* <nemo0037@yahoo.NOSPMPLS.com> wrote in
news:nemo0037-806EBA.05211106092003@news02.east.earthlink.net:
In article <Xns93EC7A0A63B7Baskifyouwantit@216.77.188.51>,
"Dr. Smartass" <gekiskivviesdo@astroboyskivviesmail.com> wrote:
Barry OGrady <god_freee_jones@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:0npdlvorl3joguugcs14pp088njikmcfj1@4ax.com:
On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 17:56:45 GMT, Karen H Jarvis <now@new.home>
wrote:
Won't it be a tad crowded?
IronyMeter == 0; ' turned off as precaution, because it's an O'Grady
post
Nope. Each believer will have their own God, yet there will still
be only one God. You will be aware that in Christian maths, 1 + 1 +
1 = 1, but in heaven, 1 + 1 + ........ still only equals 1.
Don't try to understand it. Just believe.
IronyMeter == 1;
Seconds?
Dr. S...
On review of Mr. OGrady's posts, it appears that he is an atheist. I
have moved this to AQOTM in accordance with the posted rules.
Ah, thank you. One of these days I'll make up a "Dramatis Personae" list so
I can keep track of who's who in a.a. ;)
Apologies to Mr. O'Grady for smearing him with the "T" *g*
--
Dr. Smartass
BAAWA Knight of Heckling -- a.a. #1939
"And the knowledge that they fear
Is a weapon to be used against them."
--Rush, "The Weapon"
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| User: "*Nemo*" |
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| Title: Re: TQOTM Nomination--Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
06 Sep 2003 04:15:52 AM |
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In article <Xns93EC7A0A63B7Baskifyouwantit@216.77.188.51>,
"Dr. Smartass" <gekiskivviesdo@astroboyskivviesmail.com> wrote:
Barry OGrady <god_freee_jones@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:0npdlvorl3joguugcs14pp088njikmcfj1@4ax.com:
On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 17:56:45 GMT, Karen H Jarvis <now@new.home> wrote:
Won't it be a tad crowded?
IronyMeter == 0; ' turned off as precaution, because it's an O'Grady post
Nope. Each believer will have their own God, yet there will still be
only one God. You will be aware that in Christian maths, 1 + 1 + 1 =
1, but in heaven, 1 + 1 + ........ still only equals 1.
Don't try to understand it. Just believe.
IronyMeter == 1;
Seconds?
I'll second that. I like things as cracked as that.
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
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| User: "Paul Duca" |
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| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
09 Sep 2003 11:46:06 PM |
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duke32 wrote:
On Thu, 04 Sep 2003 00:18:21 +1000, Barry OGrady
<god_freee_jones@hotmail.com> wrote:
Your all knowing God doesn't know?
I am an atheist because there are no gods.
Well, you will then get to spend all eternity with yourself and nobody
else. In the meantime, as for myself, I hope to spend all eternity
peacefully in the arms of our loving God.
You WILL let Him stick His hand down your pants...if say, that's
the only way you get food?
Paul
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| User: "Barry OGrady" |
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| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
11 Sep 2003 10:03:40 AM |
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On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 04:46:06 GMT, Paul Duca <tomservo56954@comcast.net> wrote:
duke32 wrote:
On Thu, 04 Sep 2003 00:18:21 +1000, Barry OGrady
<god_freee_jones@hotmail.com> wrote:
Your all knowing God doesn't know?
I am an atheist because there are no gods.
Well, you will then get to spend all eternity with yourself and nobody
else. In the meantime, as for myself, I hope to spend all eternity
peacefully in the arms of our loving God.
You WILL let Him stick His hand down your pants...if say, that's
the only way you get food?
That's the way God's representatives on earth work.
Paul
-Barry
========
Web page: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~barry.og
Atheist, radio scanner, LIPD information.
Voicemail/fax number +14136227640
.
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| User: "JessHC" |
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| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
28 Aug 2003 12:33:27 AM |
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duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<606qkvguiigcpc95vad11k0s3jrv0kcs9s@4ax.com>...
On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:18:21 +0100, soCode <news@socode.com> wrote:
duke32 wrote:
YOU don't know your final decision, but God does.
And since the outcome is known, it is only an illusion
of a decision.
Not to you, it isn't. You still have to make that life or death
decision.
Doesn't matter. If it's an illusion, it's an illusion; it doesn't
become non-illusory because you can't perceive the illusion, it just
means you can't see it. Hey, presto! Just like magic.
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| User: "duke32" |
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| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
28 Aug 2003 07:17:53 AM |
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On 27 Aug 2003 22:33:27 -0700, (JessHC) wrote:
Doesn't matter. If it's an illusion, it's an illusion; it doesn't
become non-illusory because you can't perceive the illusion, it just
means you can't see it. Hey, presto! Just like magic.
"If" there was ice water in hell, a few people might enjoy going
there.
It's your final free choice decision yet to be made.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
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| User: "JessHC" |
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| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
28 Aug 2003 01:05:25 PM |
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duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<6isrkv81m9d7corg9oh8etuqht3jkciq1t@4ax.com>...
On 27 Aug 2003 22:33:27 -0700, (JessHC) wrote:
Doesn't matter. If it's an illusion, it's an illusion; it doesn't
become non-illusory because you can't perceive the illusion, it just
means you can't see it. Hey, presto! Just like magic.
"If" there was ice water in hell, a few people might enjoy going
there.
Still waiting for that intellectual tour de force you promised.
It's your final free choice decision yet to be made.
Great. But if god already knows what it will be, it's predetermined,
and free will is just an illusion that you can't perceive because
you're not clever enough.
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| User: "Kenny Leong" |
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| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
28 Aug 2003 10:44:40 AM |
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duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<606qkvguiigcpc95vad11k0s3jrv0kcs9s@4ax.com>...
On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:18:21 +0100, soCode <news@socode.com> wrote:
duke32 wrote:
YOU don't know your final decision, but God does.
And since the outcome is known, it is only an illusion
of a decision.
Not to you, it isn't. You still have to make that life or death
decision.
Nonsense, you dum dum. It is 'god' that makes ALL decisions. Otherwise
god would not be a all-knowing, perfect designer, and perfect planner.
If the product could make any decisions by itself BEFORE it was even
created physically or even mentally, then god wouldn't be a
all-knowing, perfect designer and perfect planner...since it means
that things can slip past god, and that god would not have complete
control of everything. This would exactly mean that god would NOT be
all-knowing, and god would NOT be a perfect designer, and god would
NOT be a perfect planner. This shows beyond any doubt that your belief
in free-will and that god is a all-knowing, perfect designer and
planner IS FATALLY FLAWED.
Kenny L.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
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| User: "duke32" |
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| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
28 Aug 2003 11:54:41 AM |
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On 28 Aug 2003 08:44:40 -0700, (Kenny Leong)
wrote:
YOU don't know your final decision, but God does.
And since the outcome is known, it is only an illusion
of a decision.
Not to you, it isn't. You still have to make that life or death
decision.
Nonsense, you dum dum. It is 'god' that makes ALL decisions.
I'm trying to decide what to eat for lunch. God is not advising me.
It my choice and all my choice.
Otherwise
god would not be a all-knowing, perfect designer, and perfect planner.
If the product could make any decisions by itself BEFORE it was even
created physically or even mentally, then god wouldn't be a
all-knowing, perfect designer and perfect planner.
Where are you getting this silly idea that we make decsions before we
are created?
You're really way out in left field on that one.
This would exactly mean that god would NOT be
all-knowing, and god would NOT be a perfect designer, and god would
NOT be a perfect planner.
Yet God got exactly what he wanted. A being that had the free will to
choose him or to reject him.
He doesn't interfer with that free choice, just that we have the
decision to make.
What will be your final freely made decision - God or satan? You have
right up to the moment of death to make up your mind. But it takes
time afterwards to implement your decision, so I wouldn't take too
long.
This shows beyond any doubt that your belief
in free-will and that god is a all-knowing, perfect designer and
planner IS FATALLY FLAWED.
This shows that your hypothesis if FATALLY FLAWED.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
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| User: "JessHC" |
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| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
28 Aug 2003 05:02:37 PM |
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duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<kgcskv0itcu1tn2ahggq39d1e9471t06k5@4ax.com>...
On 28 Aug 2003 08:44:40 -0700, (Kenny Leong)
wrote:
<snip>
Otherwise
god would not be a all-knowing, perfect designer, and perfect planner.
If the product could make any decisions by itself BEFORE it was even
created physically or even mentally, then god wouldn't be a
all-knowing, perfect designer and perfect planner.
Where are you getting this silly idea that we make decsions before we
are created?
From you. You said god knows what we're going to do before we do it.
The only way it is possible for god to know what decisions we will
make in the future, is for god to look ahead and see what decisions
we've made. Where are you getting this silly idea that it's possible
for god to know what decisions we will make if the decisions haven't
been made?
You're really way out in left field on that one.
Only because we're trying to discuss this rationally with you. Sorry
it's so far over your head.
This would exactly mean that god would NOT be
all-knowing, and god would NOT be a perfect designer, and god would
NOT be a perfect planner.
Yet God got exactly what he wanted. A being that had the free will to
choose him or to reject him.
You're contradicting yourself again. Free will is incompatible with
absolute foreknowledge. If god knows what we're going to do, and
there is no way in heaven or on earth that we can change what we're
going to do, we don't have free will. It's really simple. If we have
free will, it is impossible for god to know what we will do in the
future, because our choices would not be limited to one possibility.
He doesn't interfer with that free choice, just that we have the
decision to make.
The decision is Schroedinger's Cat. God interferes by having
absolutely knowledge. He doesn't have to open the box to know the
cat's already dead.
What will be your final freely made decision - God or satan? You have
right up to the moment of death to make up your mind. But it takes
time afterwards to implement your decision, so I wouldn't take too
long.
If god already knows our decision, is it possible for us to make a
contrary decision?
This shows beyond any doubt that your belief
in free-will and that god is a all-knowing, perfect designer and
planner IS FATALLY FLAWED.
This shows that your hypothesis if FATALLY FLAWED.
How so? We keep pointing out to you why free will and foreknowledge
are incompatible, and you can't seem to comprehend the concept.
.
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| User: "Kenny Leong" |
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| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
28 Aug 2003 09:37:10 PM |
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Don't bother reasoning with this psycho jesshc. The clown knows
exactly what you're talking about. His tactic is called flogging a
dead horse.
Kenny L.
jesshc@phantomemail.com (JessHC) wrote in message news:<d58e3ac.0308281402.13d163c5@posting.google.com>...
duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<kgcskv0itcu1tn2ahggq39d1e9471t06k5@4ax.com>...
On 28 Aug 2003 08:44:40 -0700, (Kenny Leong)
wrote:
<snip>
Otherwise
god would not be a all-knowing, perfect designer, and perfect planner.
If the product could make any decisions by itself BEFORE it was even
created physically or even mentally, then god wouldn't be a
all-knowing, perfect designer and perfect planner.
Where are you getting this silly idea that we make decsions before we
are created?
From you. You said god knows what we're going to do before we do it.
The only way it is possible for god to know what decisions we will
make in the future, is for god to look ahead and see what decisions
we've made. Where are you getting this silly idea that it's possible
for god to know what decisions we will make if the decisions haven't
been made?
You're really way out in left field on that one.
Only because we're trying to discuss this rationally with you. Sorry
it's so far over your head.
This would exactly mean that god would NOT be
all-knowing, and god would NOT be a perfect designer, and god would
NOT be a perfect planner.
Yet God got exactly what he wanted. A being that had the free will to
choose him or to reject him.
You're contradicting yourself again. Free will is incompatible with
absolute foreknowledge. If god knows what we're going to do, and
there is no way in heaven or on earth that we can change what we're
going to do, we don't have free will. It's really simple. If we have
free will, it is impossible for god to know what we will do in the
future, because our choices would not be limited to one possibility.
He doesn't interfer with that free choice, just that we have the
decision to make.
The decision is Schroedinger's Cat. God interferes by having
absolutely knowledge. He doesn't have to open the box to know the
cat's already dead.
What will be your final freely made decision - God or satan? You have
right up to the moment of death to make up your mind. But it takes
time afterwards to implement your decision, so I wouldn't take too
long.
If god already knows our decision, is it possible for us to make a
contrary decision?
This shows beyond any doubt that your belief
in free-will and that god is a all-knowing, perfect designer and
planner IS FATALLY FLAWED.
This shows that your hypothesis if FATALLY FLAWED.
How so? We keep pointing out to you why free will and foreknowledge
are incompatible, and you can't seem to comprehend the concept.
.
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| User: "duke32" |
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| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
29 Aug 2003 07:45:01 AM |
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On 28 Aug 2003 19:37:10 -0700, (Kenny Leong)
wrote:
Don't bother reasoning with this psycho jesshc. The clown knows
exactly what you're talking about. His tactic is called flogging a
dead horse.
Kenny L.
Yep, dead is exactly what your silly professions are.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
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| User: "duke32" |
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| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
29 Aug 2003 07:43:53 AM |
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On 28 Aug 2003 15:02:37 -0700, (JessHC) wrote:
Where are you getting this silly idea that we make decsions before we
are created?
From you. You said god knows what we're going to do before we do it.
The only way it is possible for god to know what decisions we will
make in the future, is for god to look ahead and see what decisions
we've made.
Wow, now that takes imagination. Let's see, you're professing that
the only way God can look into the future to see our final freely made
decision is if we can make the decision before we are created.
Now there's a winner.
That would make us as *Gods*.
You're really way out in left field on that one.
Only because we're trying to discuss this rationally with you. Sorry
it's so far over your head.
Unbelievable.
Yet God got exactly what he wanted. A being that had the free will to
choose him or to reject him.
You're contradicting yourself again. Free will is incompatible with
absolute foreknowledge.
Not when the divine Creator is involved.
If god knows what we're going to do, and
there is no way in heaven or on earth that we can change what we're
going to do, we don't have free will. It's really simple. If we have
free will, it is impossible for god to know what we will do in the
future, because our choices would not be limited to one possibility.
So you're saying that our freely made final decision could be
different than our freely made final decision.
He doesn't interfer with that free choice, just that we have the
decision to make.
The decision is Schroedinger's Cat. God interferes by having
absolutely knowledge. He doesn't have to open the box to know the
cat's already dead.
How did the cat die?
What will be your final freely made decision - God or satan? You have
right up to the moment of death to make up your mind. But it takes
time afterwards to implement your decision, so I wouldn't take too
long.
If god already knows our decision, is it possible for us to make a
contrary decision?
Only if you can make a freely made final decision that is different
than your freely made fnal decision.
This shows that your hypothesis if FATALLY FLAWED.
How so? We keep pointing out to you why free will and foreknowledge
are incompatible, and you can't seem to comprehend the concept.
You haven't stopped to look at your words yet.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
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| User: "duke32" |
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| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
30 Aug 2003 07:10:46 AM |
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On 29 Aug 2003 14:37:27 -0700, (JessHC) wrote:
Wow, now that takes imagination. Let's see, you're professing that
the only way God can look into the future to see our final freely made
decision is if we can make the decision before we are created.
No, duke. That's what you claim, when you say "god already knows our
final decision." Unless you're trying to claim god could know our
final decision *without* his being able to see the future.
Of course he knows the future. That future is controlled by you, not
God.
Have you thought about your final freely made decision yet?
Now there's a winner.
It's funny you can't see the contradiction: we have free will, but
god already knows what our choice will be, and it can't be different
from what god knows.
That's right, which means your final free decision cannot be differnt
than your final free decision.
You're really way out in left field on that one.
Only because we're trying to discuss this rationally with you. Sorry
it's so far over your head.
Unbelievable.
That's the problem; you believe the unbelievable.
It's not unbelievable.
Yet God got exactly what he wanted. A being that had the free will to
choose him or to reject him.
You're contradicting yourself again. Free will is incompatible with
absolute foreknowledge.
Not when the divine Creator is involved.
Doesn't matter who is involved. Unless you're claiming god can be
self-contradictory. Why don't you claim that?
I'm not.
So you're saying that our freely made final decision could be
different than our freely made final decision.
Nope. I'm saying if we have free will, god can't know. If god knows,
we can't have free will. And ne'er the twain shall meet.
Sorry. God is THE one that can see your final free decision with
interferring with it.
He doesn't interfer with that free choice, just that we have the
decision to make.
The decision is Schroedinger's Cat. God interferes by having
absolutely knowledge. He doesn't have to open the box to know the
cat's already dead.
How did the cat die?
Not the point.
So you don't know anything about it.
And god would know that, too, I suppose. He'd know both choices.
Nope, you can only make one final free decision.
Maybe you're trying to say god knows we're going to make *A* choice,
but he doesn't know which one, because he can't see the future.
He knows exactly what your final free decision will be.
I could accept that, although of course I think the whole "god" concept
is illogical and contradictory.
It takes a pretty minimal mental capacity to say God is illogical.
You didn't answer the question, but that's expected. I'll rephrase:
If god knows our "final choice" before we chose it, could we then make
a "final choice" that god can't anticipate?
Correction - that God can't know.
And the answer is: no. Your final free decision cannot be different
than your final free decision.
Why, are they going to change? Hmm. "Free will and foreknowledge are
incompatible." Yep, that's always true.
For man maybe, but not for God.
God knows what your final freely made decision will be.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
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| User: "JessHC" |
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| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
30 Aug 2003 04:13:51 PM |
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duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<8a41lvcev8b0nklm1v2fb7kj3j6uhdo07r@4ax.com>...
On 29 Aug 2003 14:37:27 -0700, (JessHC) wrote:
Wow, now that takes imagination. Let's see, you're professing that
the only way God can look into the future to see our final freely made
decision is if we can make the decision before we are created.
No, duke. That's what you claim, when you say "god already knows our
final decision." Unless you're trying to claim god could know our
final decision *without* his being able to see the future.
Of course he knows the future. That future is controlled by you, not
God.
Great googly moogly, you're a moron. You claim god knows the future.
You claim he can't see our future before we are created. At what
point does the future become known to him?
Why don't you answer this question: if god knows my final decision is
going to be "A", is it possible for me to chose "B"?
Have you thought about your final freely made decision yet?
Here's another question for you: if god really wants me to go to
heaven, and knows what it would take to convince me, what keeps him
from interfering with my life?
Now there's a winner.
It's funny you can't see the contradiction: we have free will, but
god already knows what our choice will be, and it can't be different
from what god knows.
That's right, which means your final free decision cannot be differnt
than your final free decision.
Okay, so now explain how, since we can't change our final decision
because it can't be different from our final decision, we have free
will.
You're really way out in left field on that one.
Only because we're trying to discuss this rationally with you. Sorry
it's so far over your head.
Unbelievable.
That's the problem; you believe the unbelievable.
It's not unbelievable.
True enough; if one is willing to entertain illogical, contradictory
beliefs, it's believable.
Yet God got exactly what he wanted. A being that had the free will to
choose him or to reject him.
You're contradicting yourself again. Free will is incompatible with
absolute foreknowledge.
Not when the divine Creator is involved.
Doesn't matter who is involved. Unless you're claiming god can be
self-contradictory. Why don't you claim that?
I'm not.
You should, since that's what you're arguments imply.
So you're saying that our freely made final decision could be
different than our freely made final decision.
Nope. I'm saying if we have free will, god can't know. If god knows,
we can't have free will. And ne'er the twain shall meet.
Sorry. God is THE one that can see your final free decision with
interferring with it.
I'm sorry you can't see how completely wrong you are.
He doesn't interfer with that free choice, just that we have the
decision to make.
The decision is Schroedinger's Cat. God interferes by having
absolutely knowledge. He doesn't have to open the box to know the
cat's already dead.
How did the cat die?
Not the point.
So you don't know anything about it.
The cat died by god's observing it.
And god would know that, too, I suppose. He'd know both choices.
Nope, you can only make one final free decision.
Why do you keep snipping stuff? And why do you refuse to explain, or
even face, the problem that if god knows my final choice, it is
IMPOSSIBLE to make a different choice?
Maybe you're trying to say god knows we're going to make *A* choice,
but he doesn't know which one, because he can't see the future.
He knows exactly what your final free decision will be.
Then we can't make a different choice. That means no free will, you
thick headed sanctimonious troll.
I could accept that, although of course I think the whole "god" concept
is illogical and contradictory.
It takes a pretty minimal mental capacity to say God is illogical.
That's because it's so obvious to anyone not blinded by their need to
believe. You claim god does things which are wildly illogical. If
god does illogical things, god is illogical.
You didn't answer the question, but that's expected. I'll rephrase:
If god knows our "final choice" before we chose it, could we then make
a "final choice" that god can't anticipate?
Correction - that God can't know.
That wasn't my question. Why do you feel the need to change my
question? Why can't you answer the question asked?
And the answer is: no. Your final free decision cannot be different
than your final free decision.
Then it is not a free decision. If there is only one possible choice,
it is not free will. Why don't you try to explain what you think free
will is?
Why, are they going to change? Hmm. "Free will and foreknowledge are
incompatible." Yep, that's always true.
For man maybe, but not for God.
Yes, for god, too. For everything ever in the universe.
Unless god is self-contradictory, which is what your argument implies.
God knows what your final freely made decision will be.
That which does not exist can't know anything. God does not exist.
Therefore god can't know anything.
.
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| User: "duke32" |
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| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
31 Aug 2003 02:18:55 PM |
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On 30 Aug 2003 14:13:51 -0700, (JessHC) wrote:
Of course he knows the future. That future is controlled by you, not
God.
Great googly moogly, you're a moron. You claim god knows the future.
You claim he can't see our future before we are created.
Sorry, but you got yourself confused again.
1. God knows the future.
2. God definitely does see your future before you are procreated.
But you don't see it. Which means that, if failure is in your future,
it's all your doing.
You junior atheists sure do have a hard time keeping things straight,
don't you.
Why don't you answer this question: if god knows my final decision is
going to be "A", is it possible for me to chose "B"?
Nope, because just as you said, you finally chose "A" and not "B".
Tough luck.
Have you thought about your final freely made decision yet?
Here's another question for you: if god really wants me to go to
heaven, and knows what it would take to convince me, what keeps him
from interfering with my life?
He wants you to make the selection. *And* he gave you more than
enough for you to make a valid choice.
Okay, so now explain how, since we can't change our final decision
because it can't be different from our final decision, we have free
will.
It's intuitively clear.
That's the problem; you believe the unbelievable.
It's not unbelievable.
True enough; if one is willing to entertain illogical, contradictory
beliefs, it's believable.
I don't have any problem at all believing that your final free choice
cannot be different than your final free choice.
Doesn't matter who is involved. Unless you're claiming god can be
self-contradictory. Why don't you claim that?
I'm not.
You should, since that's what you're arguments imply.
You're the one having trouble understanding that which is intuitively
straight forward, not me.
Sorry. God is THE one that can see your final free decision with
interferring with it.
I'm sorry you can't see how completely wrong you are.
Well, at least God and I agree. That leaves you out in the rain.
Nope, you can only make one final free decision.
Why do you keep snipping stuff?
It's now irrevalent.
And why do you refuse to explain, or
even face, the problem that if god knows my final choice, it is
IMPOSSIBLE to make a different choice?
Because this would require your final free decision to be different
than your final free decision.
He knows exactly what your final free decision will be.
Then we can't make a different choice. That means no free will, you
thick headed sanctimonious troll.
Free will on your part is exactly what it means.
That's because it's so obvious to anyone not blinded by their need to
believe. You claim god does things which are wildly illogical. If
god does illogical things, god is illogical.
Anythng illogical is illogical only to the human mind, not God's.
That wasn't my question. Why do you feel the need to change my
question? Why can't you answer the question asked?
You can't tell the difference.
Then it is not a free decision. If there is only one possible choice,
it is not free will. Why don't you try to explain what you think free
will is?
There is not only one possible choice, but two minimum.. And hence
free will enters your decision.
Why, are they going to change? Hmm. "Free will and foreknowledge are
incompatible." Yep, that's always true.
For man maybe, but not for God.
Yes, for god, too. For everything ever in the universe.
God created the universe. He can change the rules if he wants to.
Unless god is self-contradictory, which is what your argument implies.
No, he's none of that, but you are in over your head.
God knows what your final freely made decision will be.
That which does not exist can't know anything. God does not exist.
Therefore god can't know anything.
He knows your final free decision. And you will be rewarded
accordingly.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
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| User: "BDK" |
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| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
01 Sep 2003 02:22:16 AM |
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In article <nkh4lv8hm7eg9t9ldo5sh9h7j7ie9c64p8@4ax.com>, duke32
@earthlink.net says...
On 30 Aug 2003 14:13:51 -0700, (JessHC) wrote:
Of course he knows the future. That future is controlled by you, not
God.
Great googly moogly, you're a moron. You claim god knows the future.
You claim he can't see our future before we are created.
Sorry, but you got yourself confused again.
1. God knows the future.
2. God definitely does see your future before you are procreated.
Ummm, ok Dooky.
But you don't see it. Which means that, if failure is in your future,
it's all your doing.
Then god's incompetant or uncaring, since he knows what it would take to
convince non-believers he exists. Simple Dooky.
You junior atheists sure do have a hard time keeping things straight,
don't you.
Why don't you answer this question: if god knows my final decision is
going to be "A", is it possible for me to chose "B"?
Nope, because just as you said, you finally chose "A" and not "B".
You are reallly warped Dooky.
Tough luck.
Have you thought about your final freely made decision yet?
Hee hee, here come Dooky's threats again...
Here's another question for you: if god really wants me to go to
heaven, and knows what it would take to convince me, what keeps him
from interfering with my life?
He wants you to make the selection. *And* he gave you more than
enough for you to make a valid choice.
OBVIOUSLY he didn't, since he knows (remember) if we do or not.
Okay, so now explain how, since we can't change our final decision
because it can't be different from our final decision, we have free
will.
It's intuitively clear.
LOL!! Like Windows??? I think the only thing clear here is that you are
messed up in the head.
That's the problem; you believe the unbelievable.
It's not unbelievable.
True enough; if one is willing to entertain illogical, contradictory
beliefs, it's believable.
I don't have any problem at all believing that your final free choice
cannot be different than your final free choice.
LOL. Here we go with the dancing again.
Doesn't matter who is involved. Unless you're claiming god can be
self-contradictory. Why don't you claim that?
I'm not.
You should, since that's what you're arguments imply.
You're the one having trouble understanding that which is intuitively
straight forward, not me.
Only to a mind like yours Dooky. He's coming from the side of sanity.
Sorry. God is THE one that can see your final free decision with
interferring with it.
I'm sorry you can't see how completely wrong you are.
Well, at least God and I agree. That leaves you out in the rain.
Nope, you can only make one final free decision.
Your "free" is a sane person's king's ransom! LOL.
Why do you keep snipping stuff?
It's now irrevalent.
And why do you refuse to explain, or
even face, the problem that if god knows my final choice, it is
IMPOSSIBLE to make a different choice?
Because this would require your final free decision to be different
than your final free decision.
Wow, that's amazingly kooky, Dooky.
He knows exactly what your final free decision will be.
Then we can't make a different choice. That means no free will, you
thick headed sanctimonious troll.
Free will on your part is exactly what it means.
That's because it's so obvious to anyone not blinded by their need to
believe. You claim god does things which are wildly illogical. If
god does illogical things, god is illogical.
Anythng illogical is illogical only to the human mind, not God's.
How convenient for you.
That wasn't my question. Why do you feel the need to change my
question? Why can't you answer the question asked?
You can't tell the difference.
Then it is not a free decision. If there is only one possible choice,
it is not free will. Why don't you try to explain what you think free
will is?
There is not only one possible choice, but two minimum.. And hence
free will enters your decision.
Wow. Do you tap dance like this every time when your view is totally
nonsensical??
Why, are they going to change? Hmm. "Free will and foreknowledge are
incompatible." Yep, that's always true.
For man maybe, but not for God.
Yes, for god, too. For everything ever in the universe.
God created the universe. He can change the rules if he wants to.
Unless god is self-contradictory, which is what your argument implies.
No, he's none of that, but you are in over your head.
You would know all about that
God knows what your final freely made decision will be.
That which does not exist can't know anything. God does not exist.
Therefore god can't know anything.
He knows your final free decision. And you will be rewarded
accordingly.
Here we go with the gleeful threats again. These type of responses make
me ask the question: "Are you a righty or a lefty??" LOL!!
BDK
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
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| User: "duke32" |
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| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
01 Sep 2003 11:31:14 AM |
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On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 03:22:16 -0400, BDK
<kingratatat@buckeye-express.com> wrote:
But you don't see it. Which means that, if failure is in your future,
it's all your doing.
Then god's incompetant or uncaring, since he knows what it would take to
convince non-believers he exists. Simple Dooky.
And God never overtaxes your ability to understand, so if you don't,
It's simply because you refuse to accept his words.
It's really all very simple.
Why don't you answer this question: if god knows my final decision is
going to be "A", is it possible for me to chose "B"?
Nope, because just as you said, you finally chose "A" and not "B".
You are reallly warped Dooky.
My answer fits perfectly to the question..
He wants you to make the selection. *And* he gave you more than
enough for you to make a valid choice.
OBVIOUSLY he didn't, since he knows (remember) if we do or not.
Which is why he always gives you enough to make a decision.
Okay, so now explain how, since we can't change our final decision
because it can't be different from our final decision, we have free
will.
It's intuitively clear.
LOL!! Like Windows??? I think the only thing clear here is that you are
messed up in the head.
Too bad you chose not to think about it. It's your funeral.
That's the problem; you believe the unbelievable.
It's not unbelievable.
True enough; if one is willing to entertain illogical, contradictory
beliefs, it's believable.
I don't have any problem at all believing that your final free choice
cannot be different than your final free choice.
LOL. Here we go with the dancing again.
God's music is really so very, very clear.
Because this would require your final free decision to be different
than your final free decision.
Wow, that's amazingly kooky, Dooky.
It's crystal clear to even human logic. What's your problem?
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
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| User: "BDK" |
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| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
01 Sep 2003 11:56:36 PM |
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In article <7ms6lvghq1un1dadq6m77u6ihccfval1mn@4ax.com>, duke32
@earthlink.net says...
On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 03:22:16 -0400, BDK
<kingratatat@buckeye-express.com> wrote:
But you don't see it. Which means that, if failure is in your future,
it's all your doing.
Then god's incompetant or uncaring, since he knows what it would take to
convince non-believers he exists. Simple Dooky.
And God never overtaxes your ability to understand, so if you don't,
It's simply because you refuse to accept his words.
He would know, EXACTLY what it would take to convince me he exists, if
he really existed, wouldn't he Dooky?
It's really all very simple.
Why don't you answer this question: if god knows my final decision is
going to be "A", is it possible for me to chose "B"?
Nope, because just as you said, you finally chose "A" and not "B".
You are reallly warped Dooky.
My answer fits perfectly to the question..
Yeah, it's just as nonsensical.
He wants you to make the selection. *And* he gave you more than
enough for you to make a valid choice.
OBVIOUSLY he didn't, since he knows (remember) if we do or not.
Which is why he always gives you enough to make a decision.
Sure Dooky, keep saying that over and over again.
Okay, so now explain how, since we can't change our final decision
because it can't be different from our final decision, we have free
will.
It's intuitively clear.
LOL!! Like Windows??? I think the only thing clear here is that you are
messed up in the head.
Too bad you chose not to think about it. It's your funeral.
LOL! Here's the threats, got a stiffie yet?
That's the problem; you believe the unbelievable.
It's not unbelievable.
True enough; if one is willing to entertain illogical, contradictory
beliefs, it's believable.
I don't have any problem at all believing that your final free choice
cannot be different than your final free choice.
LOL. Here we go with the dancing again.
God's music is really so very, very clear.
And your dancing like a fool Dooky.
Because this would require your final free decision to be different
than your final free decision.
Wow, that's amazingly kooky, Dooky.
It's crystal clear to even human logic. What's your problem?
Your logic, and human logic are "universes" apart. In your Universe,
things make sense that are obviously total nonsense in the universe most
of us live in, even most believers!
BDK
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
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| User: "duke32" |
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| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
02 Sep 2003 07:12:00 AM |
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On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 00:56:36 -0400, BDK
<kingratatat@buckeye-express.com> wrote:
And God never overtaxes your ability to understand, so if you don't,
It's simply because you refuse to accept his words.
He would know, EXACTLY what it would take to convince me he exists, if
he really existed, wouldn't he Dooky?
You're just saying "no".
Because this would require your final free decision to be different
than your final free decision.
Wow, that's amazingly kooky, Dooky.
It's crystal clear to even human logic. What's your problem?
Your logic, and human logic are "universes" apart. In your Universe,
things make sense that are obviously total nonsense in the universe most
of us live in, even most believers!
Hahahahahahahahaha. That's funny.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
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| User: "BDK" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
02 Sep 2003 11:14:49 AM |
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In article <a229lv0qaqpd11k528eef0plhg79o6sg3u@4ax.com>, duke32
@earthlink.net says...
On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 00:56:36 -0400, BDK
<kingratatat@buckeye-express.com> wrote:
And God never overtaxes your ability to understand, so if you don't,
It's simply because you refuse to accept his words.
He would know, EXACTLY what it would take to convince me he exists, if
he really existed, wouldn't he Dooky?
You're just saying "no".
Lol!! You're just saying yes!!! Wayyyy to easily, IMO.
Because this would require your final free decision to be different
than your final free decision.
Wow, that's amazingly kooky, Dooky.
It's crystal clear to even human logic. What's your problem?
Your logic, and human logic are "universes" apart. In your Universe,
things make sense that are obviously total nonsense in the universe most
of us live in, even most believers!
Hahahahahahahahaha. That's funny.
No, actually, it's kinda sad...
BDK
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
|
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| User: "JessHC" |
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| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
02 Sep 2003 11:56:37 AM |
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duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<a229lv0qaqpd11k528eef0plhg79o6sg3u@4ax.com>...
On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 00:56:36 -0400, BDK
<kingratatat@buckeye-express.com> wrote:
And God never overtaxes your ability to understand, so if you don't,
It's simply because you refuse to accept his words.
He would know, EXACTLY what it would take to convince me he exists, if
he really existed, wouldn't he Dooky?
You're just saying "no".
You're just not answering the question.
Because this would require your final free decision to be different
than your final free decision.
Wow, that's amazingly kooky, Dooky.
It's crystal clear to even human logic. What's your problem?
Your logic, and human logic are "universes" apart. In your Universe,
things make sense that are obviously total nonsense in the universe most
of us live in, even most believers!
Hahahahahahahahaha. That's funny.
It really, really is.
.
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| User: "duke32" |
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| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
02 Sep 2003 12:36:59 PM |
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On 2 Sep 2003 09:56:37 -0700, (JessHC) wrote:
And God never overtaxes your ability to understand, so if you don't,
It's simply because you refuse to accept his words.
He would know, EXACTLY what it would take to convince me he exists, if
he really existed, wouldn't he Dooky?
You're just saying "no".
You're just not answering the question.
You don't expect God to play up to you, do you? You have all you need
- if you burn your foot, blame yourself.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
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| User: "Barry OGrady" |
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| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
05 Sep 2003 09:22:10 PM |
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On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 17:36:59 GMT, duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote:
On 2 Sep 2003 09:56:37 -0700, (JessHC) wrote:
And God never overtaxes your ability to understand, so if you don't,
It's simply because you refuse to accept his words.
He would know, EXACTLY what it would take to convince me he exists, if
he really existed, wouldn't he Dooky?
You're just saying "no".
You're just not answering the question.
You don't expect God to play up to you, do you? You have all you need
- if you burn your foot, blame yourself.
We could blame God for making it possible for our foot to be burned.
We could blame God for not preventing our foot from being burned.
We could blame God for not giving us the required information.
duke, American-American
*****
-Barry
========
Web page: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~barry.og
Atheist, radio scanner, LIPD information.
Voicemail/fax number +14136227640
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| User: "JessHC" |
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| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
02 Sep 2003 10:15:36 PM |
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duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<o5l9lvks04frf4qml6mhaea3mpgbnf1s5n@4ax.com>...
On 2 Sep 2003 09:56:37 -0700, (JessHC) wrote:
And God never overtaxes your ability to understand, so if you don't,
It's simply because you refuse to accept his words.
He would know, EXACTLY what it would take to convince me he exists, if
he really existed, wouldn't he Dooky?
You're just saying "no".
You're just not answering the question.
You don't expect God to play up to you, do you? You have all you need
- if you burn your foot, blame yourself.
I didn't realize I was talking to god; I thought I was talking to duke.
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