| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Kenny Leong" |
| Date: |
21 Aug 2003 08:53:30 PM |
| Object: |
Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
(Truth Hunter) wrote in message news:<e164e783.0308101615.5a3d9f84@posting.google.com>...
God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE !
Well, christians believe that 1) god is all-knowing. 2) god is a
perfect designer. 3) god is a perfect planner.
Combine all three attributes above and consider the following
things...
First...according to christians, there was no earth, and no people
before 'god' created the earth and people. Therefore, people did not
exist physically exist.
If people did not physically exist, then here's big question for the
christians. The question is ... if god is a all-knowing, perfect
designer, and perfect planner, then could god possibly make a product
that does something unexpected (in god's view)? If god CAN make a
product that does something unexpected to god (such as the product has
true free-will), then it means that god is not all-knowing, and god is
not a perfect designer, and god is not a perfect planner.
If god CANNOT make a product that does something unexpected, then it
means that god is all-knowing, and god is a perfect designer, and also
a perfect planner. This means that a all-knowing, perfect designer,
and perfect planner cannot make a product with free-will. If certain
folks insist that 'god' can make a product with free-will, then
there's a fatal violation of just three of god's fundamental
attributes.
So ... relating this to the apple. If some folks reckon that god is
all-knowing, a perfect designer, and perfect planner, then it was god
that created every single event by perfect all-knowing design and
planning..including the apple, and what adam and eve were going to do
etc. Every single mechanical action for adam and eve was designed and
planned by god with perfect knowledge in advance of adam and eve's
physical creation. Given this situation, there's no way that god could
become upset, sad, or angry about his/her/it's perfectly sequenced
future events.
Kenny L.
So...if god is a all-knowing, perfect designer, and perfect planner,
then any future
.
|
|
| User: "duke32" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
23 Aug 2003 06:23:05 AM |
|
|
On 21 Aug 2003 18:53:30 -0700, (Kenny Leong)
wrote:
If people did not physically exist, then here's big question for the
christians. The question is ... if god is a all-knowing, perfect
designer, and perfect planner, then could god possibly make a product
that does something unexpected (in god's view)?
Good grief - you are eons behind in the conversation.
If god CAN make a
product that does something unexpected to god (such as the product has
true free-will), then it means that god is not all-knowing, and god is
not a perfect designer, and god is not a perfect planner.
He wanted free will, not robots.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "duke32" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
24 Aug 2003 09:37:51 AM |
|
|
On 23 Aug 2003 16:39:51 -0700, (Brad) wrote:
If god CAN make a
product that does something unexpected to god (such as the product has
true free-will), then it means that god is not all-knowing, and god is
not a perfect designer, and god is not a perfect planner.
He wanted free will, not robots.
That's a myth. Even the Bible undermines the "free" will claim.
Where?
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "duke32" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
25 Aug 2003 11:14:22 AM |
|
|
On 24 Aug 2003 11:03:50 -0700, (Brad) wrote:
He wanted free will, not robots.
That's a myth. Even the Bible undermines the "free" will claim.
Where?
Divine manipulation of a persons behavior in order to produce a
particular outcome is demonstrated in Deut 2:30.
Deuteronomy 2
30 But Sihon king of Heshbon refused to let us pass through. For the
LORD your God had made his spirit stubborn and his heart obstinate in
order to give him into your hands, as he has now done
Nope, men's hearts are made hard by denying men their desires. God
always gives, but what we need, not necessarily what we want.
Better luck next time.
Divine predestination of individuals to play a specific role is
demonstrated in Eph 1:4-5,11.
Ephesians 1
4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy
and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[1] predestined us to be
adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his
pleasure and will--
11In him we were also chosen,[3] having been predestined according to
the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the
purpose of his will,
Nope. It's thru Christ that we are held blameless. If we reject
Christ, we no longer qualify.
Nice try, but no cigar.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "Brad" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
25 Aug 2003 07:37:18 PM |
|
|
duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<93dkkvkki7c85cee024t3pl278q2k3or08@4ax.com>...
On 24 Aug 2003 11:03:50 -0700, (Brad) wrote:
He wanted free will, not robots.
That's a myth. Even the Bible undermines the "free" will claim.
Where?
Divine manipulation of a persons behavior in order to produce a
particular outcome is demonstrated in Deut 2:30.
Deuteronomy 2
30 But Sihon king of Heshbon refused to let us pass through. For the
LORD your God had made his spirit stubborn and his heart obstinate in
order to give him into your hands, as he has now done
Nope, men's hearts are made hard by denying men their desires. God
always gives, but what we need, not necessarily what we want.
Better luck next time.
You're ignoring what the verse says in favor of writing your own
script.
The verse does not say that the king of Heshbon had his heart hardened
because of unfulfilled desire.
The verse states that the Lord God made his spirit and heart stubborn.
That's intervention and behavior manipulation by God to produce an
outcome in line with his(God's)whims.
Mentally rewriting verses may appeal to you as an expedient way to
ignore the text, but it does little to enhance your credibility as a
Bible believer.
Divine predestination of individuals to play a specific role is
demonstrated in Eph 1:4-5,11.
Ephesians 1
4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy
and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[1] predestined us to be
adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his
pleasure and will--
11In him we were also chosen,[3] having been predestined according to
the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the
purpose of his will,
Nope. It's thru Christ that we are held blameless. If we reject
Christ, we no longer qualify.
Nice try, but no cigar.
And again you've ignored the text in favor of obfuscation.
The text says nothing about being able to reject God's predestined
plan or overriding his will and plan with your own.
You've mentally inserted your own qualifier into the scripture that
renders God's divine power of predestination impotent.
The text does clearly state that:
God PREDESTINED some people to be his sons in accordance with HIS
pleasure and HIS will.
The word predestine means to determine in advance or settle
beforehand.
According to whose will? According to HIS will. The will of God, not
the individual.
Verse 11 declares that some people were predestined according to the
plan of HIM who works out everything in conformity of the purpose of
HIS will.
There is no reason, other than your personal theological desires for a
God who wants so-called "free-will", to assume that God's
predestination and God's will are not binding.
Your use of the word "free" in your free will claim is also not
applicable to the Bible deity, as an incorrect choice results in
punishment.
The choice is by no means "free" and is better defined as an
ultimatum.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "JessHC" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
25 Aug 2003 04:35:30 PM |
|
|
duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<93dkkvkki7c85cee024t3pl278q2k3or08@4ax.com>...
On 24 Aug 2003 11:03:50 -0700, (Brad) wrote:
He wanted free will, not robots.
That's a myth. Even the Bible undermines the "free" will claim.
Where?
Divine manipulation of a persons behavior in order to produce a
particular outcome is demonstrated in Deut 2:30.
Deuteronomy 2
30 But Sihon king of Heshbon refused to let us pass through. For the
LORD your God had made his spirit stubborn and his heart obstinate in
order to give him into your hands, as he has now done
Nope, men's hearts are made hard by denying men their desires. God
always gives, but what we need, not necessarily what we want.
Gee, looks to me like "the LORD your God has made his spirit stubborm
and his heart obstinate in order to give him into your hands, as he
has now done." Hey! Just like Pharoah! What a wacky god,
manipulating his children.
Come up yet with a scripture that says we get "what we need, not
necessarily what we want"? Come up yet with a scripture that says
hell is a cold dark lonely place? And hey, why do you think Buddha
was Chinese, again?
Better luck next time.
Don't need it.
Divine predestination of individuals to play a specific role is
demonstrated in Eph 1:4-5,11.
Ephesians 1
4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy
and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[1] predestined us to be
adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his
pleasure and will--
11In him we were also chosen,[3] having been predestined according to
the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the
purpose of his will,
Nope. It's thru Christ that we are held blameless. If we reject
Christ, we no longer qualify.
If it is predestined, there is no free will. Oooh, too bad. If "he
chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and
blameless in his sight, why do we need Jesus?
Nice try, but no cigar.
I don't smoke. You shouldn't, either.
.
|
|
|
| User: "BDK" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
26 Aug 2003 12:44:14 AM |
|
|
In article <d58e3ac.0308251335.195251d4@posting.google.com>,
jesshc@phantomemail.com says...
duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<93dkkvkki7c85cee024t3pl278q2k3or08@4ax.com>...
On 24 Aug 2003 11:03:50 -0700, (Brad) wrote:
He wanted free will, not robots.
That's a myth. Even the Bible undermines the "free" will claim.
Where?
Divine manipulation of a persons behavior in order to produce a
particular outcome is demonstrated in Deut 2:30.
Deuteronomy 2
30 But Sihon king of Heshbon refused to let us pass through. For the
LORD your God had made his spirit stubborn and his heart obstinate in
order to give him into your hands, as he has now done
Nope, men's hearts are made hard by denying men their desires. God
always gives, but what we need, not necessarily what we want.
Gee, looks to me like "the LORD your God has made his spirit stubborm
and his heart obstinate in order to give him into your hands, as he
has now done." Hey! Just like Pharoah! What a wacky god,
manipulating his children.
Come up yet with a scripture that says we get "what we need, not
necessarily what we want"? Come up yet with a scripture that says
hell is a cold dark lonely place? And hey, why do you think Buddha
was Chinese, again?
Better luck next time.
Don't need it.
Divine predestination of individuals to play a specific role is
demonstrated in Eph 1:4-5,11.
Ephesians 1
4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy
and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[1] predestined us to be
adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his
pleasure and will--
11In him we were also chosen,[3] having been predestined according to
the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the
purpose of his will,
Nope. It's thru Christ that we are held blameless. If we reject
Christ, we no longer qualify.
If it is predestined, there is no free will. Oooh, too bad. If "he
chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and
blameless in his sight, why do we need Jesus?
Nice try, but no cigar.
I don't smoke. You shouldn't, either.
I wager 100 kwatlus that Dooky has done much more than smoke over the
years to get his brain as friend as badly as it is.
BDK
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "JessHC" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
25 Aug 2003 04:20:40 PM |
|
|
duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<9uckkv473oke0nqjaa62h6ot2t8ig2igf4@4ax.com>...
On 24 Aug 2003 10:34:47 -0700, (JessHC) wrote:
duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<najhkvo5gkfubt6gom9odvdh80fsbi8m3j@4ax.com>...
On 23 Aug 2003 16:39:51 -0700, (Brad) wrote:
If god CAN make a
product that does something unexpected to god (such as the product has
true free-will), then it means that god is not all-knowing, and god is
not a perfect designer, and god is not a perfect planner.
He wanted free will, not robots.
That's a myth. Even the Bible undermines the "free" will claim.
Where?
Start with Adam and Eve, and work your way through.
A&E is THE prime and initial example re free will. God gave them one
simple "do not", and the free will to accept or to reject his
direcive. They chose to reject.
Oops, wrong.
.
|
|
|
| User: "duke32" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
26 Aug 2003 12:42:31 PM |
|
|
On 25 Aug 2003 14:20:40 -0700, (JessHC) wrote:
That's a myth. Even the Bible undermines the "free" will claim.
Where?
Start with Adam and Eve, and work your way through.
A&E is THE prime and initial example re free will. God gave them one
simple "do not", and the free will to accept or to reject his
direcive. They chose to reject.
Oops, wrong.
Not according to the bible.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "duke32" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
27 Aug 2003 07:31:14 AM |
|
|
On 26 Aug 2003 20:47:09 -0700, (JessHC) wrote:
Dukie, dukie. This has been pointed out to you so many times before,
by me and others far more intelligent and articulate than me. If they
lacked knowledge of good and evil, they lacked the ability to know
whether the choices they made were right or wrong, good or bad. It's
all right there in the bible, the problem is, you just reject stuff
that conflicts with your narrow interpretations, and lie about what's
actually there.
jessie, jessie, jessie.
Tell me - what part about **DO NOT** did they fail to understand?
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "JessHC" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
27 Aug 2003 02:45:31 PM |
|
|
duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<lv8pkvgr6f68ib6vt5dfeqpo6d6fo29csi@4ax.com>...
On 26 Aug 2003 20:47:09 -0700, (JessHC) wrote:
Dukie, dukie. This has been pointed out to you so many times before,
by me and others far more intelligent and articulate than me. If they
lacked knowledge of good and evil, they lacked the ability to know
whether the choices they made were right or wrong, good or bad. It's
all right there in the bible, the problem is, you just reject stuff
that conflicts with your narrow interpretations, and lie about what's
actually there.
jessie, jessie, jessie.
Tell me - what part about **DO NOT** did they fail to understand?
How much simpler can I make it for you? They failed to understand
that disobeying was wrong. They didn't know it was wrong to disobey.
Adam and Eve lacked the ability to make the distinction between right
and wrong, so didn't know that disobeying was wrong. Now, be a good
robot, since that's what god wants, and say, "They just knew. It's
your funeral."
.
|
|
|
| User: "Doug Semler" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
28 Aug 2003 12:19:02 AM |
|
|
At some point in the past, JessHC <jesshc@phantomemail.com> slavered,
and posted this:
duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:<lv8pkvgr6f68ib6vt5dfeqpo6d6fo29csi@4ax.com>...
Tell me - what part about **DO NOT** did they fail to understand?
How much simpler can I make it for you? They failed to understand
that disobeying was wrong. They didn't know it was wrong to disobey.
Adam and Eve lacked the ability to make the distinction between right
and wrong, so didn't know that disobeying was wrong. Now, be a good
robot, since that's what god wants, and say, "They just knew. It's
your funeral."
No, no, no. You forgot the "God KNEW that A&E well KNEW what 'do not'
meant."
--
Doug Semler
http://home.wideopenwest.com/~doug_semler
a.a. #705, BAAWA. EAC Guardian of the Horn of the IPU (pbuhh).
I hate spam, standard email address munging applied.
42
DNRC o-
.
|
|
|
| User: "Doug Semler" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
28 Aug 2003 01:27:35 PM |
|
|
At some point in the past, duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> slavered, and
posted this:
JessH wrote:
How much simpler can I make it for you? They failed to understand
that disobeying was wrong. They didn't know it was wrong to
disobey. Adam and Eve lacked the ability to make the distinction
between right and wrong, so didn't know that disobeying was wrong.
Now, be a good robot, since that's what god wants, and say, "They
just knew. It's your funeral."
Yes, yes, yes. He knew their final freely made decision. He told
them "do not" before hand, knew that they knew fully well what not to
do, and they did it anyway on their own free will anyway.
If your god already knew that they were going to disobey his command, and
when, and how they are going to be talked into disobedience, then that
command is no longer a command, but a suggestion.
--
Doug Semler
http://home.wideopenwest.com/~doug_semler
a.a. #705, BAAWA. EAC Guardian of the Horn of the IPU (pbuhh).
I hate spam, standard email address munging applied.
42
DNRC o-
.
|
|
|
| User: "duke32" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
28 Aug 2003 05:25:16 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 14:27:35 -0400, "Doug Semler"
<doug_semler@REMOVEMEwideopenwest.com> wrote:
If your god already knew that they were going to disobey his command, and
when, and how they are going to be talked into disobedience, then that
command is no longer a command, but a suggestion.
Well, I guess you could say that. But that's sorta like lying down in
your grave to be covered up, but telling the guy with the shovel to be
gentle in throwing the dirt.
Hahahahahahahaha.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "Doug Semler" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
28 Aug 2003 08:36:51 PM |
|
|
At some point in the past, duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> slavered, and
posted this:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 14:27:35 -0400, "Doug Semler"
<doug_semler@REMOVEMEwideopenwest.com> wrote:
If your god already knew that they were going to disobey his
command, and when, and how they are going to be talked into
disobedience, then that command is no longer a command, but a
suggestion.
Well, I guess you could say that. But that's sorta like lying down in
your grave to be covered up, but telling the guy with the shovel to be
gentle in throwing the dirt.
Hahahahahahahaha.
Oooookaaaaay....
--
Doug Semler
http://home.wideopenwest.com/~doug_semler
a.a. #705, BAAWA. EAC Guardian of the Horn of the IPU (pbuhh).
I hate spam, standard email address munging applied.
42
DNRC o-
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "duke32" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
28 Aug 2003 12:02:02 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:26:10 -0400, BDK
<kingratatat@buckeye-express.com> wrote:
Snort!! You owe me a keyboard, Dooky!! I shot tea out of my nose when I
read the above. Funny and scary at the same time!!! If god knew what A&E
were going to do from the start, then telling them not to eat the apple
wasnt something he should have ever forbidden the to do, since he KNEW
they were going to do it anyway.
But they didn't know.
You see, you're trying to equate original sin as a one time event
only. You and I are faced with exactly that choice on a daily basis.
God knows what you and I will freely decide, but your mom and pop were
the ones that freely decided to bring you into the picture. It was
their freely made decision. Now you're stuck. You must now make a
final free decision of your own - what will it be - to accept God for
to reject God.
Don't wait too long. You could die suddenly in a car accident is a
few minutes.
Dance, Dooky, dance!! It will make
sense if you dance long and hard enough!!
Desparate, that's the best description for you Dooky.
BDK
I don't have to dance. I have made my decision, and have no plans to
change it. BUT you do.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "duke32" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
29 Aug 2003 11:29:42 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 21:50:45 -0400, BDK
<kingratatat@buckeye-express.com> wrote:
One time, a million times, the point is the same. The so called choice
you have is no choice if god already knows what the answer will be from
the start!
Sorry, but God only knows what *YOU* will decide to be your final
freely made decision. He doesn't interfer.
Good luck on your decision.
You can try to make it make sense, but it doesn't, no matter
how much you dance trying to keep the plates up on the sticks.
How this makes sense to even you befuddles me..
BDK
Logical reasoning.
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "BDK" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
29 Aug 2003 09:57:04 PM |
|
|
In article <mkvukv47vrcrnke0iu5hd0v69tqvt16jhn@4ax.com>, duke32
@earthlink.net says...
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 21:50:45 -0400, BDK
<kingratatat@buckeye-express.com> wrote:
One time, a million times, the point is the same. The so called choice
you have is no choice if god already knows what the answer will be from
the start!
Sorry, but God only knows what *YOU* will decide to be your final
freely made decision. He doesn't interfer.
Good luck on your decision.
Again with the nonsense, you don't seem to be able to understand, is it
drugs??
You can try to make it make sense, but it doesn't, no matter
how much you dance trying to keep the plates up on the sticks.
How this makes sense to even you befuddles me..
BDK
Logical reasoning.
Belief in an invisible being, with nothing but a book to base that
belief on, and that's logical reasoning?? No wonder you are dominating
the Theist Quote Of The Month contests...
BDK
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "JessHC" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
30 Aug 2003 12:34:20 AM |
|
|
duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<mkvukv47vrcrnke0iu5hd0v69tqvt16jhn@4ax.com>...
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 21:50:45 -0400, BDK
<kingratatat@buckeye-express.com> wrote:
One time, a million times, the point is the same. The so called choice
you have is no choice if god already knows what the answer will be from
the start!
Sorry, but God only knows what *YOU* will decide to be your final
freely made decision. He doesn't interfer.
If you want to believe that, fine, but such a situation makes free
will impossible. Of course, you'll now say something clever like "No
it doesn't," and completely avoid trying to explain WHY or HOW it
doesn't make free will impossible.
Good luck on your decision.
You can try to make it make sense, but it doesn't, no matter
how much you dance trying to keep the plates up on the sticks.
How this makes sense to even you befuddles me..
BDK
Logical reasoning.
You are using neither logic nor reasoning, although you so desperately
want to believe otherwise.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Barry OGrady" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
28 Aug 2003 11:39:31 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:39:20 GMT, duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 01:19:02 -0400, "Doug Semler"
<doug_semler@REMOVEMEwideopenwest.com> wrote:
How much simpler can I make it for you? They failed to understand
that disobeying was wrong. They didn't know it was wrong to disobey.
Adam and Eve lacked the ability to make the distinction between right
and wrong, so didn't know that disobeying was wrong. Now, be a good
robot, since that's what god wants, and say, "They just knew. It's
your funeral."
No, no, no. You forgot the "God KNEW that A&E well KNEW what 'do not'
meant."
Yes, yes, yes. He knew their final freely made decision. He told
them "do not" before hand, knew that they knew fully well what not to
do, and they did it anyway on their own free will anyway.
Yes, yes, yes, God knew what they would do because he programmed them as
part of his plan to find an excuse to downgrade all life, which he obviously had
planned from the beginning.
duke, American-American
*****
-Barry
========
Web page: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~barry.og
Atheist, radio scanner, LIPD information.
Voicemail/fax number +14136227640
.
|
|
|
| User: "duke32" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
28 Aug 2003 12:03:15 PM |
|
|
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 02:39:31 +1000, Barry OGrady
<god_freee_jones@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yes, yes, yes. He knew their final freely made decision. He told
them "do not" before hand, knew that they knew fully well what not to
do, and they did it anyway on their own free will anyway.
Yes, yes, yes, God knew what they would do because he programmed them as
part of his plan to find an excuse to downgrade all life, which he obviously had
planned from the beginning.
No programming. Free will. Have you made your final one?
duke, American-American
*****
2Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ, that each one may
receive what is due him for the things done
while in the body, whether good or bad.
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "Barry OGrady" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
30 Aug 2003 10:11:01 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:03:15 GMT, duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote:
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 02:39:31 +1000, Barry OGrady
<god_freee_jones@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yes, yes, yes. He knew their final freely made decision. He told
them "do not" before hand, knew that they knew fully well what not to
do, and they did it anyway on their own free will anyway.
Yes, yes, yes, God knew what they would do because he programmed them as
part of his plan to find an excuse to downgrade all life, which he obviously had
planned from the beginning.
No programming. Free will. Have you made your final one?
God knew what was going to happen before he began creating, which is to say
he planned it.
duke, American-American
*****
-Barry
========
Web page: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~barry.og
Atheist, radio scanner, LIPD information.
Voicemail/fax number +14136227640
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Kenny Leong" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
01 Sep 2003 08:40:26 PM |
|
|
duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<sadskvkbp3hugdkarkldjn4c7v4p38pgn6@4ax.com>...
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 02:39:31 +1000, Barry OGrady
<god_freee_jones@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yes, yes, yes. He knew their final freely made decision. He told
them "do not" before hand, knew that they knew fully well what not to
do, and they did it anyway on their own free will anyway.
Yes, yes, yes, God knew what they would do because he programmed them as
part of his plan to find an excuse to downgrade all life, which he obviously had
planned from the beginning.
No programming. Free will. Have you made your final one?
Free-will this, you moron...
"The steps of a man are established by the LORD"
Psalm37:23
"Man's steps are ordained by the LORD"
Proverbs20:24
Kenny L.
.
|
|
|
| User: "J.R." |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
02 Sep 2003 01:08:37 AM |
|
|
(Kenny Leong) wrote in message news:<29154d7c.0309011740.17bc72d@posting.google.com>...
duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<sadskvkbp3hugdkarkldjn4c7v4p38pgn6@4ax.com>...
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 02:39:31 +1000, Barry OGrady
<god_freee_jones@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yes, yes, yes. He knew their final freely made decision. He told
them "do not" before hand, knew that they knew fully well what not to
do, and they did it anyway on their own free will anyway.
Yes, yes, yes, God knew what they would do because he programmed them as
part of his plan to find an excuse to downgrade all life, which he obviously had
planned from the beginning.
No programming. Free will. Have you made your final one?
Free-will this, you moron...
"The steps of a man are established by the LORD"
Psalm37:23
"Man's steps are ordained by the LORD"
Proverbs20:24
Kenny L.
It sure seems to say that people are just wind-up little god-bots.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Kenny Leong" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
02 Sep 2003 08:08:36 AM |
|
|
(J.R.) wrote in message news:<54de13e7.0309012208.792d6c12@posting.google.com>...
kenny_tm_leong@yahoo.com (Kenny Leong) wrote in message news:<29154d7c.0309011740.17bc72d@posting.google.com>...
duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<sadskvkbp3hugdkarkldjn4c7v4p38pgn6@4ax.com>...
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 02:39:31 +1000, Barry OGrady
<god_freee_jones@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yes, yes, yes. He knew their final freely made decision. He told
them "do not" before hand, knew that they knew fully well what not to
do, and they did it anyway on their own free will anyway.
Yes, yes, yes, God knew what they would do because he programmed them as
part of his plan to find an excuse to downgrade all life, which he obviously had
planned from the beginning.
No programming. Free will. Have you made your final one?
Free-will this, you moron...
"The steps of a man are established by the LORD"
Psalm37:23
"Man's steps are ordained by the LORD"
Proverbs20:24
Kenny L.
It sure seems to say that people are just wind-up little god-bots.
It surely does. Poor little dukey...shot down in flames.
Kenny L.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Kenny Leong" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
23 Aug 2003 12:54:31 PM |
|
|
duke32 <duke32@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<hfjekvkjur2jurki7ggi1pp2jfqcto682n@4ax.com>...
On 21 Aug 2003 18:53:30 -0700, (Kenny Leong)
wrote:
If people did not physically exist, then here's big question for the
christians. The question is ... if god is a all-knowing, perfect
designer, and perfect planner, then could god possibly make a product
that does something unexpected (in god's view)?
Good grief - you are eons behind in the conversation.
If god CAN make a
product that does something unexpected to god (such as the product has
true free-will), then it means that god is not all-knowing, and god is
not a perfect designer, and god is not a perfect planner.
He wanted free will, not robots.
duke, American-American
Not years behind..but years ahead actually. You forget that before
humans can even exist physically, then there's no way that 'god' could
ever design and plan humans to so something unexpected - especially to
make god sad, angry, disappointed, or even upset. Because if god could
do make a product that does something unexpected, then god would not
be all-knowing, and god would not be a perfect designer, or a perfect
planner. That's because if your product doesn't yet exist, and you are
a all-knowing, perfect designer and perfect planner, then there is NO
WAY you'll be able to make a product that has free-will....because the
product doesn't even physically exist yet before you design and plan
every single one of its future mechanical actions. Therefore the
product's future actions are god's VERY OWN ACTIONS (since every
single action was chosen and planned perfectly in advance, before the
product even existed). So whatever the product does is exactly the
same as what god does..because it's all god's own movements and
actions.
See? You're miles behind.
Kenny L.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Kix Adams" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
24 Aug 2003 03:27:19 AM |
|
|
(Kenny Leong) wrote in message news:<29154d7c.0308230954.1c59f325@posting.google.com>...
Not years behind..but years ahead actually. You forget that before
humans can even exist physically, then there's no way that 'god' could
ever design and plan humans to so something unexpected - especially to
make god sad, angry, disappointed, or even upset. Because if god could
do make a product that does something unexpected, then god would not
be all-knowing, and god would not be a perfect designer, or a perfect
planner. That's because if your product doesn't yet exist, and you are
a all-knowing, perfect designer and perfect planner, then there is NO
WAY you'll be able to make a product that has free-will....because the
product doesn't even physically exist yet before you design and plan
every single one of its future mechanical actions. Therefore the
product's future actions are god's VERY OWN ACTIONS (since every
single action was chosen and planned perfectly in advance, before the
product even existed). So whatever the product does is exactly the
same as what god does..because it's all god's own movements and
actions.
See? You're miles behind.
Kenny L.
Matthew 19:
26. But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is
impossible; but with God all things are possible.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Kix Adams" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
25 Aug 2003 11:28:19 AM |
|
|
"Charles P" <chuck@spammerssuck.com> wrote in message news:<tT22b.111778$3o3.7876843@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
One aspect of God that seems impossible is for Him to show Himself -
just once in the last 2000 years, but no...it doesn't seem possible
for him. He was thundering out of mountain tops, parting the Red Sea,
making stone tablets, stopping the movement of the earth in its orbit,
doing all sorts of wacky stuff thousands of years ago. Now all we
have is this stony silence.
Jesus Christ walked the earth and performed miracles before large
numbers of witnesses and he was still rejected because men who gave
over to their own desires and refused to give up what they thought
they knew to believe the truth that was right before their eyes. When
Jesus was crucified he left his disciples to perform miracles just as
he had and even they were killed for doing as commanded by God. So men
were left to decide in their own hearts whether to believe in him or
to reject him. Those who cannot believe and have faith without proof
would not have anymore believe and faith with proof. However, if
you're looking for a miracle, the fact that God's word has survived
these 2,000 years with all the criticism and attempts to silence it is
a miracle in itself.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Barry OGrady" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
30 Aug 2003 10:10:55 AM |
|
|
On 25 Aug 2003 09:28:19 -0700, (Kix Adams) wrote:
"Charles P" <chuck@spammerssuck.com> wrote in message news:<tT22b.111778$3o3.7876843@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
One aspect of God that seems impossible is for Him to show Himself -
just once in the last 2000 years, but no...it doesn't seem possible
for him. He was thundering out of mountain tops, parting the Red Sea,
making stone tablets, stopping the movement of the earth in its orbit,
doing all sorts of wacky stuff thousands of years ago. Now all we
have is this stony silence.
Jesus Christ walked the earth and performed miracles before large
numbers of witnesses and he was still rejected because men who gave
over to their own desires and refused to give up what they thought
they knew to believe the truth that was right before their eyes.
Even back then Jesus was a failure.
When
Jesus was crucified he left his disciples to perform miracles just as
he had and even they were killed for doing as commanded by God.
Is that the best God could do?
So men
were left to decide in their own hearts whether to believe in him or
to reject him.
Based on what?
Those who cannot believe and have faith without proof
would not have anymore believe and faith with proof.
At least, that is what you have been told.
However, if
you're looking for a miracle, the fact that God's word has survived
these 2,000 years with all the criticism and attempts to silence it is
a miracle in itself.
It's a condemnation of human intellect.
-Barry
========
Web page: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~barry.og
Atheist, radio scanner, LIPD information.
Voicemail/fax number +14136227640
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Kenny Leong" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
26 Aug 2003 01:31:27 AM |
|
|
angryjohn <john@angryjohn.net> wrote in message news:<26glkvs0tbd43vgelrdvf2vjrqh9cf1fcc@4ax.com>...
On 25 Aug 2003 09:28:19 -0700, (Kix Adams) wrote:
"Charles P" <chuck@spammerssuck.com> wrote in message news:<tT22b.111778$3o3.7876843@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
One aspect of God that seems impossible is for Him to show Himself -
just once in the last 2000 years, but no...it doesn't seem possible
for him. He was thundering out of mountain tops, parting the Red Sea,
making stone tablets, stopping the movement of the earth in its orbit,
doing all sorts of wacky stuff thousands of years ago. Now all we
have is this stony silence.
Jesus Christ walked the earth and performed miracles before large
numbers of witnesses and he was still rejected because men who gave
over to their own desires and refused to give up what they thought
they knew to believe the truth that was right before their eyes. When
Jesus was crucified he left his disciples to perform miracles just as
he had and even they were killed for doing as commanded by God. So men
were left to decide in their own hearts whether to believe in him or
to reject him. Those who cannot believe and have faith without proof
would not have anymore believe and faith with proof. However, if
you're looking for a miracle, the fact that God's word has survived
these 2,000 years with all the criticism and attempts to silence it is
a miracle in itself.
It's a miracle the bible hasn't been moved to the ancient mythology section as
it shoud be.
aa#2106
Yes...and it's also interesting why they can never admit that a
all-knowing, perfect designing, and perfect planning 'god' (according
to THEIR own beliefs) can never make a product that does something
unexpected...which means that such a 'god'..or whatever you want to
call it.. never needs to judge anything that it makes. Otherwise 'god'
wouldn't be a all-knowing, perfect designer, and perfect planner.
Kenny L.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Kix Adams" |
|
| Title: Re: God KILLED his SON for one rotten APPLE ! |
25 Aug 2003 01:02:11 PM |
|
|
(Kenny Leong) wrote in message news:<29154d7c.0308240713.45bd9f39@posting.google.com>...
That's the fatal flaw in the bible. There's no way that a all-knowing,
perfect designing, and perfect planner can create a product that does
something unexpected. That is, such a entity cannot make a product
with free-will.
There's no way? Or perhaps it's just that you cannot comprehend how it
can be so? God has been questioned and denounced by some of the most
educated and intelligent men on earth and the reason is that none of
them could grasp from the beginning is that He is God. He does not
exist by the same rules of logic that we do. If God created every
animal, insect, fish and plant on earth, why do you doubt that he
could create a man who's decisions are his own to make?
Now let me ask you a simple question. Is it possible that god did NOT
YET design and plan his/her/its product all-knowingly? By your
definition, the answer is YES..it is possible. Therefore if this is
possible, then it becomes IMPOSSIBLE that god knew every single thing
about his/her/it's product ... and thus god would not be all-knowing,
and would not be a perfect designer, and would not be a perfect
planner. This simply shows that the bible is fatally flawed.
Kenny L.
If God had not planned us using his all knowing and intelligent design
he would not have given us free will and you would not have had the
ability to question his existence. Should I, at this point, remind you
who the master of confusion and chaos is?
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
