"Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
news:2006073111065916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...

On 2006-07-31 10:36:51 +0100, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> said:

"Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
news:2006073109233216807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...

On 2006-07-31 03:34:54 +0100, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> said:

"Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
news:2006073102233643658-thecroft@macunlimitednet...

On 2006-07-30 22:19:46 +0100, "Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net> said:

Yes, it's another Bill M rant from the man who cannot understand
simple English

The god believers claim that god created the world and everything in
it. He is all loving, all caring and all powerful creator of man in
his image.

SOME do (OK I'm one, but unlike Bill I recognise there is a variety
of views)

Because the world is so magnificent and complex it had to have a
creator. By this same logic, god has to be even more powerful and
complex and would have to have a creator. Complexity in no way is
proof or evidence of a god creator. It is only evidence that the
Universe is very complex by our standards.

No, it's a belief. But science can but a figure on the likelihood of
a universe like ours happening by chance, and it is vanishingly
small. Now maybe we just lucked out - it's possible.

Supposedly man after he dies lives on in gods eternal heaven in
eternal happiness.

That's a Judaeo-Christian perspective. Buddhists, Hindus and Jains
would not sign up to that

If this is true, why did he create sin and punishment on Earth?

Sin is choosing to live in a way that is contrary to what Goid wants.

Where do you guys get off talking about a 'God' when you haven't one
toenail's worth of proof he exists? What is wrong with you. You wrote
the words, 'contrary to what God wants'. How in hell can you make such
a statement. How in the hell do you *know* what a deity that hasn't
even proven to exist, 'want'? Huh? BS. You are making that up. You
have no proof of what you're saying at all. None.

We can argue until the cows come home about evidence for or against the
existence of God, but probably wouldn't agree about what constitutes
evidence.

You avoided my question. How can you possibly write that *anything* is
'contrary to what God wants'??? How can you write that? Based on what?
Like I said: You have no proof of what you're saying.

Cop out and a half. You believe there is a 'God' out there. No. You say
there *is* a 'God' out there. Where? Point to him. Say, 'Here he is!'.
Or, 'There he is.' You can't. What? If you did, I wouldn't accept that
as proof? Try me.

You make a number of requests for "proof". Rather than deal with each
indiviually I'll put the point at the end.

For example, the probability of a universe where life is

possible coming into existence spontaneously is vanishingly small.

Absolutely no proof of the existence of 'God'. And *certainly* no proof
that 'God' likes 'this', or 'God' likes 'that'. Or *anything* about 'God'.

And a 'creator' who never had a 'beginning' but, nonetheless, comes
'ready-made' with supernatural intelligence, imagination, a
'conscience', the 'gift' of omniscience, etc. I'm supposed to believe
*that*?

No - just accept that I do.

Based on what? 'Faith'? *That's* your 'proof' that 'God' exists? Hah!

And worse, you Christians present this 'God' as 'fact'. You infer that
you know 'God' likes this, but he hates that. *How* in the hell can you
say such things when you can't produce any irrefutable evidence for what
you're saying is true? None. Zero. Nothing. Oh, I forgot. 'Faith'. Hah!

Evidence for a Creator? Only if your world-view permits it to be
regarded as evidence.

Try me. Point to something you *personally* regard as irrefutable proof
that 'God' exists. You personally. And don't forget to supply the
evidence. The night sky and rainbows don't count. You couldn't possibly
prove that a deity 'created' them.

A non-response. What's the matter?

I write what I believe to be true in response to

the poster - not to convice people who do not share those beliefs.

You're trying to convince someone that what you believe is true.
Otherwise you wouldn't have responded to the post. You are trying to
justify what you believe. By its very nature you are trying to
'convince'.

Not necessarily - just explaining what I believe.

Well that *is* a little different from claiming that what you're asserting
is actually 'true'.

Whether people are

"convinced" or not is all one to me.

If I do make that choice then I create sin - not God.

Did your God 'sin' when he consciously -- using that 'free-will' of
his -- *chose* to create evil instead of *not* choosing to do so? He
didn't have to do that, did he? No one 'forced' God to create evil,
did they?

God created the capacity to do evil, not evil itself.

Oh no? If 'God' created *everything* in existence -- and evil exists --
it goes without saying that 'God' created evil. Where else would it have
come from. And as pointed out elsewhere, this 'God' of yours is
ultimately destroy 'Satan' and all his followers and eradicate ... what?
.... why 'evil'.

You say 'God' created the 'capacity' to do evil, not evil itself.
Exactly, what do you mean by that? At some point in time, your God
'dreamt' up the concept of evil and had the 'free-will' to either leave
it on the 'drafting board' or actually put it 'into production', so to
speak. He willfully chose to create it and expose man to it. Willfully
and malevolently. Nice 'God' you believe in there. He could have left it
on the 'drafting board' and out of 'production', you know. He had
absolutely no reason to inflict his 'creation' with such a scourge --
unless he is a depraved deity, is there? And you people worship and
adore such filth. Well, at least think highly of him.

He could have done, but it is difficult to see how he could create
morally responsible beings, without the possibility of evil.

Why in the world would he want 'morally reprehensible' beings to exist at
all. What 'good' did 'God creating 'evil' do? Like I said: There is
nothing more evil than the creator of evil.

Sin is acting in

a way contrary to what God wants and therefore God cannot, by
definition, sin.

So no matter how heinous an act this 'God' of yours performs, it's not
really 'sin' because it's 'God' doing the 'sinning', right? Do I read
you correctly.

Yes, but see the sentence that follows for a gloss.

Consigning the rest of the animal world to suffer pain and often a
hideous death -- without *any* chance of going to 'heaven' -- isn't
'sinful'?

I have no information on what happens to animals, nor any viewpoint on
it.

Well would you agree to this: If the no other creature in the animal world
goes to 'heaven', would you not say that consigning animals to a fate
where they feel pain, suffer and all to often die a hideous death is
morally reprehensible, nay, an 'evil' thing to do?

What do you call such depraved and sadistic abuse of supernatural power?
God just being 'God'?


We can question his motives and regard what he does as

wrong from our perspective, but that is not sin.

What do *you* call depraved and sadistic abuse of power?

Which is what you have just done.

And why not? If one believes in the literal truth of the 'Noah's Flood'
story,

Big "if" there. I don't - nor do most Christians - but let's run with
that.

would not the drowning deaths of every single infant baby, toddler, and
pregnant woman be considered 'mass-murder' and 'infanticide', or just
'God' just being irrational 'God'? You *know* that this 'God' of yours
is no 'angel'. Where do you draw the line on immoral acts and call 'sin'
a 'sin'?

Yes, but as it didn't happen I see no reason to worry about that.

How about standing idly by and doing nothing to save the world from the
horrific suffering it is enduring? What? Is 'God' too lazy to lift his
holy ***** off his 'throne' and do something about the suffering of his
'children'?

And where did 'God' get his intelligence, imagination, and
'supernatural powers' from? Explain that one. You seem to have an
intimate knowledge of 'God'. What did he tell you about all that?

Why did he create Hell?

Answering a question with a question. Sometimes that's justified. But
here, I think you should offer up some kind of reasonable answer. Don't
you? You're the guy who seems to know the 'mind' of 'God'.

Why not create a world with men that are

motivated to be all caring and loving beings, just like him, with no
desire to be selfish, greedy and mean?

Or, indeed, no choice to be those things. Ask yourself, is that what
you would want? Would you want to be an automaton?

What??? What do you think you 'Christians' believe is going to
ultimately happen? Don't you believe that your 'God' is going destroy
'Satan' and all of his followers? Don't you believe that evil will
ultimately be eradicated; that evil will be no more? What does that
leave you with? No more 'free-will' and the ability to 'choose' to do
evil, that's what.

That's a good point. I'll need to think about that.

So, why not just have said to Adam and Eve, 'I forgive you' after they
disobeyed and avoided all the pain, anguish, suffering, death and
destruction mankind has experienced?

Er, Greywolf. The story of the Garden of Eden is a story; a parable.
You can't push it to explain things it was written to explain.

Well! That's comforting. You don't believe the story of Adam & Eve is
literally true. Hallelujah!

Nor did Augustine in the 4th Century or Origen in the 3rd. Nor have most
theologians since.

Okay. Let me rephrase the question: Why doesn't 'God' put an end to
mankind's suffering. And while I'm at it: Why did 'God' feel the need to
dress up as a 1st-century Jew and have himself crucified? Into S&M, is he?

What? Is your 'God' as sadist? Is he evil? No. He doesn't even exist.
Get that throught your thick, brainwashed skull! Use you your brain!

What makes you think I'm 'brainwashed'?

Because you're desperately clinging to something so irrational that it
almost defies description. Only brainwashed (or ignorant) people do
that. If only you could point to *something* that we humans would
recognize as deity. But there is absolutely *nothing*. I can't hold it
against you *that* much. After all, you were brainwashed at a tender
age; when you were at your most vulnerable, I would think.

Again, how do you know? Where is your evidence?

Print out this thread. Re-read your replies. You *may* see just how
irrational some of your responses are. You are brainwashed, amigo. Proof?
Ask yourself if *anything* could convince you that you may just *possibly*
be wrong. If you answer, 'No', you're brainwashed. Not even allowing for
the *possibility* that you are wrong tells me your all but brain-dead --
on a certain level.

You are quick to demand

proof but equally quick to make judgements about people about whom you
know nothing.

Look at your porcupine-like defense of a 'God' who you could not
*possibly' prove exists (because he doesn't), yet maintains you know his
'feelings' on certain things. What does that tell me?

So you *should* be cut a little 'slack' for that. But then again, you
*are* proselytizing, aren't you?

No

You know nothing about me. This

isn't debate - it's the kind of senseless noise that gives atheits a
bad name. Don't shout - reason.

Well then 'reason'. You've got a 'God' whose 'mind' you pretend you know
and understand. Based on what???

Religious fanatics claim that man has chosen to be evil because of
his 'free will'. This is totally specious. 'Free will' does no imply
or require evil conduct.

But it must

'must', nothing. Here you go again.
Trying to pretend that you have some sort of inside 'info' about a
'God' whose existence you couldn't prove if your life depended on it.

Not at all - I'm arguing that free will must logically involve the
possibility of evil conduct. God doesn't come into it.

Again. I ask you where did 'evil' come from if not from your 'God'? Evil
which your 'God' could have freely chosen *not* to create.

Baloney? Okay. Pretend I'm an alien from the planet Mars. Prove to me
that this 'God' of yours exists. Can't, can you? You can't. You would
eventually tell me that I would have to have 'faith' in order to do
that. How bogus!

require the ability to choose such. If it did not then

On the same basis, how would I prove that my sister exists? I could
show you photographs of a woman, describe our childhood - introduce her
even. But if our putative Martian had no concept of family, or believed
that familial relationships were impossible, would any it PROVE that
this woman is my sister?

Well if it were *impossible* for my Martian friend to comprehend the
above, that would be one thing. But you and I are both earthlings;
humans who have the same 'make-up'. You insist there is a 'God' but seem
to suggest that I don't have the proper 'detection gear' to 'detect'
him. Rubbish. And you know it.

'free' does not mean anything - it just means 'free to do what I
think you should do'.

free will n. 1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice:
chose to remain behind of my own free will. 2. The power, attributed
especially to human beings, of making free choices that are
unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate
or divine will.

Exactly - that last phrase negates your argument

You forgot something, preacher. Your 'theology' has this creature you
call 'Satan'

Actually, my theology regards Satan as that part of hman beings that
turns us away from God.

And where is the proof/evidence supporting this position?

We are Satan.

So you are saying that there is no supernatural creature that is the
personification of evil? Well I agree! If anything, 'God' would be
'Satan'. Name one entity that could be more evil than the creator of
evil.

I accept, though, that most

Christians do not accept this.

constantly pulling and tugging for very vulnerable and weak man to do
the wrong thing. Think about that. A supernatural evil force
constantly pushing man to do evil. Why, that's a bit unfair. Don't you
think? And who 'stacked the deck' so unfairly? Why Mr. Perfection
himself: 'God'. What a hoot!

I take your point. I could present the standard Christian argument, but
I'd much rather leave that to someone who actually believes it.

A good benevolent god could have created man as a loving caring
creature with free will but without any desire or ability to commit
evil.

In which case we would not be morally free agents.

Oh, what a horrid, unspeakably horrible fate! Instead of experiencing
the pain, anguish, suffering, death and destruction man has had to
endure, we would spend an eternity in blissfull happiness -- but
without the 'free-will' to 'choose' evil. How dreadful!!!

Do I detect a degree of sarcasm here?

Darn tootin'

No free will. Also no growth. No

thought, No invention. No creativity. Nor a lot of other things that we
value.

And how does the presence of evil produce any of the above? Great art is
not the by-product of evil, is it?

Actually it can be - and often is. Picasso's "Guernica", for example.

That painting was Picasso's response to the immoral bombing of a Spanish
town. It didn't stem from Picasso's evil 'nature'.

We could not choose

to do wrong. Could it be, do you think Bill, that that's what God
wants? Beings that can do wrong but choose to do right?

Was it 'good' of 'God' to create evil when he didn't have to? Is
experiencing the ability to do evil something that makes one a
'better' mindless angel?

What makes you think angels are mindless? Do you know something I
don't?

You're forgetting that they don't have the 'free-will' to disobey 'God'.
Or do they? And if you say either 'Yes' or 'No', be prepared to say
*exactly* how you *know* that.

You're the one making the statement about angels - you back it up.

I maintain that there are no such things as 'angels'. I believe they are
no more 'real' than 'God' is real. But I take it from your response that
you don't believe 'angels' are 'real' either. Hallelujah for that!

He already created other limitations on man's 'free will'.

In the next paragraph you just lose it completely.

He created hunger pains to force man to eat and drink?

But people can choose to starve to death (and have). Free will.

Well let's just drag your ***** to the middle of the Saharan desert,
miles and miles away from anyone without any food and water and see if
your 'free-will' produces Sunday brunch. Are you nuts?

That's missing the point. The poster argues that we are forced to eat
and that there is therefore no free will. I'm merely pointing out that
the statement he makes is evidently false - we are not forced to eat.

No. But if we don't, we die. That's how we continue living. I don't see
your point.

Only that we can choose to die if we wish - our free will is not negated
by our biological needs.

I'm not sure how you can construe that as meaning that free will
involves the production of food.

He created suffocation panic to force man to breathe?

But people can choose to asphyxiate themselves (and have). Free will.

Doo Doo Do ... Doo Doo Do ... Do ... oh where's the Outer Limits
soundtrack?

And a powerful sex drive to force man to procreate? (Frequently in
excess of mans ability to feed and care for his creations!)

But people can choose to abstain from sex - sometimes for life (and
do). Free will.

Forget that part about me being an alien from the planet Mars. I think
*you* are one!

Oh - this must be that famous "atheist appeal to reason" I've heard so
much about.

No. Your beliefs are intrinsically irrational and without substance.
They're grounded in irrationality, not reason. There is nothing to
support them. But as I've already stated; you've been brainwashed, and
severely so in my opinion.

By whom? When? How?

I'll let *you* try and figure that one out. All I know is that you show
every sign of being indoctrinated and severely brainwashed. You have NO
proof that this 'God' of yours exists and yet you are fighting tooth and
nail to pretend he does. Sad. Real sad.

So one cannot and should not try to hold certain things against you.

Then why create greed and selfishness which encourages man to steel,
lie, subjugate and even kill other men?

So we can choose - just like the stuff you just mentioned.

This is supposedly to keep man in line and force him to follow god's
wishes and commands. This is characteristic of a dictator and slave
master not the characteristics of an all loving and caring god.

Who supposes your 'supposedly'? I don't. Most Christians don't.

Oh no? What happens to those who do not believe in 'God' or choose not
to worship and adore him? Huh?

God will judge them on the basis of the way they've lived their lives'
fairly and justly.

Did he tell you this over the weekend or early this morning over a cup
of delicious Columbian coffee?

You are one severly brainwashed dude trying brainwash someone else.
Your belief-system is so 'false' it isn't even funny. You people are
sick. 'Barking mad', as Richard Dawkins would say. Whew!!! Elizabeth,
get me the smelling salts, this guy's nonsense is knocking me loopy!
I'm going to leave it here. I don't want to end up drowning in dog
diarrhea.

Well I don't care cause my dad's bigger than your dad so there! (stomps
foot and stalks out of playground)

He came back and just left again.

OK - on to the proof thing. Let's suppose I tell you I met God. Let's say
I had an experience that unquestionably involved an encounter with God.
Do you accept my word? If not, why not?

Theoretically, it *could* be true. But given what you've told me, It is
more than likely that you suffered some sort of delusion. But then, are
you telling me that you *did* have a 'meeting' with 'God'? If so, you are
going to have to come up with some damn good evidence for what you would
be telling me is true.


Well, one person's word

does not count as evidence - certainly not proof. So how about if a
thousand people say that they have met God? Or millions? Or thousands of
millions?

There has been countless people who have believed in 'God' or gods. The
problem is that not one single one of them have been able to prove deity
exists. Not a one. What does *that* tell you. If there *were*, in fact, a
deity, would not every creature exposed to this deity recognize it was
deity and bring skeptics to the deity and have the deity interact with the
skeptics and thus 'prove' that the deity, did in fact, exist? And how does
one *disprove* the existence of a non-existent, imaginary deity? Hmmm?

You can - and will - say that none of this is objective

proof - but why should I accept your understanding of the universe rather
than my own experience?

Because both you and I live in the same universe. If you point to the sun
and say, 'See that, that's the sun,' I would turn and see the same sun you
see. Try that with 'God'.

Once again I am not proselytising or

attempting to convince you or anybody else, so do not have to accept your
standards of "proof".

earlier posts snipped

Brainwashed until proven otherwise. That's you, amigo.

Greywolf

"Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
news:2006073111065916807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...

On 2006-07-31 10:36:51 +0100, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> said:

"Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
news:2006073109233216807-thecroft@macunlimitednet...

On 2006-07-31 03:34:54 +0100, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> said:

"Andrew" <thecroft@macunlimited.net> wrote in message
news:2006073102233643658-thecroft@macunlimitednet...

On 2006-07-30 22:19:46 +0100, "Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net> said:

Yes, it's another Bill M rant from the man who cannot understand simple English

The god believers claim that god created the world and everything in
it. He is all loving, all caring and all powerful creator of man in his
image.

SOME do (OK I'm one, but unlike Bill I recognise there is a variety of views)

Because the world is so magnificent and complex it had to have a
creator. By this same logic, god has to be even more powerful and
complex and would have to have a creator. Complexity in no way is proof
or evidence of a god creator. It is only evidence that the Universe is
very complex by our standards.

No, it's a belief. But science can but a figure on the likelihood of a
universe like ours happening by chance, and it is vanishingly small.
Now maybe we just lucked out - it's possible.

Supposedly man after he dies lives on in gods eternal heaven in eternal
happiness.

That's a Judaeo-Christian perspective. Buddhists, Hindus and Jains
would not sign up to that

If this is true, why did he create sin and punishment on Earth?