| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"david ford" |
| Date: |
09 Oct 2004 09:45:33 PM |
| Object: |
Re: GOP taking a leaf from the Discovery Institute? |
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:<rf6gm0hetg5t6eeav1vlrilnpda1sv8nol@4ax.com>...
On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 (david ford) wrote:
Gary Bohn <garybohn@REMOVETHISaccesscomm.ca> wrote in message news:<Xns957CDD28BDAE3GaryBohn@130.133.1.4>...
Klaus Hellnick <khellNOSPAMnick@houston.rr.com> wrote in news:7oI9d.14124$sY3.7119@fe2.texas.rr.com:
macaddicted wrote:
David <daycd@hotmail.com> wrote:
[START Quote from NYTimes http://tinyurl.com/4hgj4]
But other analysts, including some Republicans, said Mr. Bush was
repeatedly taking phrases and sentences out of context, or
cherry-picking votes, to provide an unfavorable case against Mr.
Kerry.
"So much of what they are indicting is taken out of context," said
Kathleen Hall Jamieson, director of the Annenberg Public Policy
Center at the University of Pennsylvania, and the author of a book on
negative campaigning. "It's a matter of taking sentences out of
context or parts of sentences out of context. And it's hard for
journalists to write the context back in because it takes time.''
[END Quote]
This all sounds very familiar!
Yes, its the 98% of politicians that make the other 2% look bad.
Yup, a totally liberal rag, whose website starts with a big lying ad
for the Democrats, writes a massively slanted "article", only quoting
liberals. A clear indication of the slant is when it starts out by
referring to "SENATOR JOHN KERRY" and "Mr. Bush".
I noticed that Bush is so up on foreign affairs he called Canada a third
world country during the second debate. You want *him* back in office?
From
http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2004a.html
"KERRY: Well, let me just say quickly that I've had an extraordinary
experience of watching up close and personal that transition in
Russia, because I was there right after the transformation. And I was
probably one of the first senators, along with Senator Bob Smith of
New Hampshire, a former senator, go down into the KGB underneath
Treblinka Square and see reams of files with names in them."
What is [Kerry]"Treblinka Square"?
Wow, he got the name wrong. No way Shrug would ever
do anything like that.
Did Kerry also get [MS]"the name wrong" when he recounted being in
Cambodia?
Do you believe Kerry when he says he was in Russia looking at the
papers he mentioned?
About Kerry and Cambodia:
Muravchik, Joshua. 24 August 2004. "Kerry's Cambodia Whopper"
_Washington Post_, page A17, at
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27211-2004Aug23.html
Muravchik is a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute.
In entirety:
Most of the debate between the former shipmates who swear by John
Kerry and the group of other Swift boat veterans who are attacking his
military record focuses on matters that few of us have the experience
or the moral standing to judge. But one issue, having nothing to do
with medals, wounds or bravery under fire, goes to the heart of
Kerry's qualifications for the presidency and is therefore something
that each of us must consider. That is Kerry's apparently fabricated
claim that he fought in Cambodia.
It is an assertion he made first, insofar as the written record
reveals, in 1979 in a letter to the Boston Herald. Since then he has
repeated it on at least eight occasions during Senate debate or in
news interviews, most recently to The Post this year (an interview
posted on Kerry's Web site). The most dramatic iteration came on the
floor of the Senate in 1986, when he made it the centerpiece of a
carefully prepared 20-minute oration against aid to the Nicaraguan
contras.
Kerry argued that contra aid could put the United States on the path
to deeper involvement despite denials by the Reagan administration of
any such intent. Kerry began by reading out similar denials regarding
Vietnam from presidents Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon. Then
he offered this devastating riposte:
"I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I
remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge
and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling
the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in
Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared -- seared -- in me."
However seared he was, Kerry's spokesmen now say his memory was
faulty. When the Swift boat veterans who oppose Kerry presented
statements from his commanders and members of his unit denying that
his boat entered Cambodia, none of Kerry's shipmates came forward, as
they had on other issues, to corroborate his account. Two weeks ago
Kerry's spokesmen began to backtrack. First, one campaign aide
explained that Kerry had patrolled the Mekong Delta somewhere
"between" Cambodia and Vietnam. But there is no between; there is a
border. Then another spokesman told reporters that Kerry had been
"near Cambodia." But the point of Kerry's 1986 speech was that he
personally had taken part in a secret and illegal war in a neutral
country. That was only true if he was "in Cambodia," as he had often
said he was. If he was merely "near," then his deliberate misstatement
falsified the entire speech.
Next, the campaign leaked a new version through the medium of
historian Douglas Brinkley, author of "Tour of Duty," a laudatory book
on Kerry's military service. Last week Brinkley told the London
Telegraph that while Kerry had been 50 miles from the border on
Christmas, he "went into Cambodian waters three or four times in
January and February 1969 on clandestine missions." Oddly, though,
while Brinkley devotes nearly 100 pages of his book to Kerry's
activities that January and February, pinpointing the locations of
various battles and often placing Kerry near Cambodia, he nowhere
mentions Kerry's crossing into Cambodia, an inconceivable omission if
it were true.
Now a new official statement from the campaign undercuts Brinkley. It
offers a minimal (thus harder to impeach) claim: that Kerry "on one
occasion crossed into Cambodia," on an unspecified date. But at least
two of the shipmates who are supporting Kerry's campaign (and one who
is not) deny their boat ever crossed the border, and their testimony
on this score is corroborated by Kerry's own journal, kept while on
duty. One passage reproduced in Brinkley's book says: "The banks of
the [Rach Giang Thanh River] whistled by as we churned out mile after
mile at full speed. On my left were occasional open fields that
allowed us a clear view into Cambodia. At some points, the border was
only fifty yards away and it then would meander out to several hundred
or even as much as a thousand yards away, always making one wonder
what lay on the other side." His curiosity was never satisfied,
because this entry was from Kerry's final mission.
After his discharge, Kerry became the leader of Vietnam Veterans
Against the War (VVAW). Once, he presented to Congress the accounts by
his VVAW comrades of having "personally raped, cut off ears, cut off
heads, taped wires . . . to human genitals . . . razed villages in a
fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan . . . poisoned foodstocks." Later
it was shown that many of the stories on which Kerry based this
testimony were false, some told by impostors who had stolen the
identities of real GIs, but Kerry himself was not implicated in the
fraud. And his own over-the-top generalization that such "crimes
[were] committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of
officers at all levels of command" could be charged up to youthfulness
and the fevers of the times.
But Kerry has repeated his Cambodia tale throughout his adult life. He
has claimed that the epiphany he had that Christmas of 1968 was about
truthfulness. "One of the things that most struck me about Vietnam was
how people were lied to," he explained in a subsequent interview. If
-- as seems almost surely the case -- Kerry himself has lied about
what he did in Vietnam, and has done so not merely to spice his
biography but to influence national policy, then he is surely not the
kind of man we want as our president.
.
|
|
| User: "Chris Thompson" |
|
| Title: Re: GOP taking a leaf from the Discovery Institute? |
10 Oct 2004 09:19:57 AM |
|
|
(david ford) wrote in
news:dford3-b1c67abe.0410091851.707322b7@posting.google.com:
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
message news:<rf6gm0hetg5t6eeav1vlrilnpda1sv8nol@4ax.com>...
On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 (david ford) wrote:
Gary Bohn <garybohn@REMOVETHISaccesscomm.ca> wrote in message
news:<Xns957CDD28BDAE3GaryBohn@130.133.1.4>...
Klaus Hellnick <khellNOSPAMnick@houston.rr.com> wrote in
news:7oI9d.14124$sY3.7119@fe2.texas.rr.com:
macaddicted wrote:
David <daycd@hotmail.com> wrote:
[START Quote from NYTimes http://tinyurl.com/4hgj4]
But other analysts, including some Republicans, said Mr. Bush
was repeatedly taking phrases and sentences out of context, or
cherry-picking votes, to provide an unfavorable case against
Mr. Kerry.
"So much of what they are indicting is taken out of context,"
said Kathleen Hall Jamieson, director of the Annenberg Public
Policy Center at the University of Pennsylvania, and the author
of a book on negative campaigning. "It's a matter of taking
sentences out of context or parts of sentences out of context.
And it's hard for journalists to write the context back in
because it takes time.'' [END Quote]
This all sounds very familiar!
Yes, its the 98% of politicians that make the other 2% look
bad.
Yup, a totally liberal rag, whose website starts with a big
lying ad for the Democrats, writes a massively slanted
"article", only quoting liberals. A clear indication of the
slant is when it starts out by referring to "SENATOR JOHN KERRY"
and "Mr. Bush".
I noticed that Bush is so up on foreign affairs he called Canada a
third world country during the second debate. You want *him* back
in office?
From
http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2004a.html
"KERRY: Well, let me just say quickly that I've had an extraordinary
experience of watching up close and personal that transition in
Russia, because I was there right after the transformation. And I
was probably one of the first senators, along with Senator Bob Smith
of New Hampshire, a former senator, go down into the KGB underneath
Treblinka Square and see reams of files with names in them."
What is [Kerry]"Treblinka Square"?
Wow, he got the name wrong. No way Shrug would ever
do anything like that.
Hey, he was on the right continent.
Did Kerry also get [MS]"the name wrong" when he recounted being in
Cambodia?
Do you believe Kerry when he says he was in Russia looking at the
papers he mentioned?
About Kerry and Cambodia:
Muravchik, Joshua. 24 August 2004. "Kerry's Cambodia Whopper"
_Washington Post_, page A17, at
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27211-2004Aug23.html
Muravchik is a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute.
In entirety:
Tiresome screed from right-wing smear-tank clipped.
Ever fought in a war, David? Ever been in the field for days or weeks at
a time? Ever been far from roads, street signs, friendly beat cops you
could ask for directions? Ever been completely reliant on maps you're
not sure you trust, in a landscape that all looks the same, day after
day after day? With people shooting at you, on top of everything else?
I haven't been in combat, but I have spent enough time in roadless areas
to know that you can easily be a hundred miles off from where you think
you are, looking at a map. If I extrapolate that to a rain-forest
setting, that close to a border, I can easily believe someone might be
mixed up about what side of a line they're on. And yes, Cambodians and
Khmer Rouge were as respectful of those lines as anyone else during that
war- i.e., not at all, so you better believe Kerry knows what he's
saying when mentioning getting shot at by those folks.
As always, you're off the mark.
Chris
--
"We are all capable of believing things which we know to be untrue, and
then, when we are finally proved wrong, impudently twisting the facts so
as to show that we were right. Intellectually, it is possible to carry
on this process for an indefinite time: the only check on it is that
sooner or later a false belief bumps up against solid reality, usually
on a battlefield." --George Orwell, 1946, "Under Your Nose"
.
|
|
|
| User: "david ford" |
|
| Title: Re: GOP taking a leaf from the Discovery Institute? |
13 Oct 2004 06:06:38 AM |
|
|
Chris Thompson <rockwallaby@TAKEOUTerols.com> wrote in message news:<Xns957E6A1E7D90rockwallabyerolscom@207.69.189.191>...
(david ford) wrote in news:dford3-b1c67abe.0410091851.707322b7@posting.google.com:
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:<rf6gm0hetg5t6eeav1vlrilnpda1sv8nol@4ax.com>...
On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 (david ford) wrote:
Gary Bohn <garybohn@REMOVETHISaccesscomm.ca> wrote in message news:<Xns957CDD28BDAE3GaryBohn@130.133.1.4>...
Klaus Hellnick <khellNOSPAMnick@houston.rr.com> wrote in news:7oI9d.14124$sY3.7119@fe2.texas.rr.com:
macaddicted wrote:
David <daycd@hotmail.com> wrote:
[START Quote from NYTimes http://tinyurl.com/4hgj4]
But other analysts, including some Republicans, said Mr. Bush
was repeatedly taking phrases and sentences out of context, or
cherry-picking votes, to provide an unfavorable case against
Mr. Kerry.
"So much of what they are indicting is taken out of context,"
said Kathleen Hall Jamieson, director of the Annenberg Public
Policy Center at the University of Pennsylvania, and the author
of a book on negative campaigning. "It's a matter of taking
sentences out of context or parts of sentences out of context.
And it's hard for journalists to write the context back in
because it takes time.'' [END Quote]
This all sounds very familiar!
Yes, its the 98% of politicians that make the other 2% look
bad.
Yup, a totally liberal rag, whose website starts with a big
lying ad for the Democrats, writes a massively slanted
"article", only quoting liberals. A clear indication of the
slant is when it starts out by referring to "SENATOR JOHN KERRY"
and "Mr. Bush".
I noticed that Bush is so up on foreign affairs he called Canada a
third world country during the second debate. You want *him* back
in office?
From
http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2004a.html
"KERRY: Well, let me just say quickly that I've had an extraordinary
experience of watching up close and personal that transition in
Russia, because I was there right after the transformation. And I
was probably one of the first senators, along with Senator Bob Smith
of New Hampshire, a former senator, go down into the KGB underneath
Treblinka Square and see reams of files with names in them."
What is [Kerry]"Treblinka Square"?
Wow, he got the name wrong. No way Shrug would ever
do anything like that.
Hey, he was on the right continent.
Did Kerry also get [MS]"the name wrong" when he recounted being in
Cambodia?
Do you believe Kerry when he says he was in Russia looking at the
papers he mentioned?
About Kerry and Cambodia:
Muravchik, Joshua. 24 August 2004. "Kerry's Cambodia Whopper"
_Washington Post_, page A17, at
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27211-2004Aug23.html
Muravchik is a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute.
In entirety:
Tiresome screed from right-wing smear-tank clipped.
Ever fought in a war, David? Ever been in the field for days or weeks at
a time? Ever been far from roads, street signs, friendly beat cops you
could ask for directions? Ever been completely reliant on maps you're
not sure you trust, in a landscape that all looks the same, day after
day after day? With people shooting at you, on top of everything else?
No.
I haven't been in combat, but I have spent enough time in roadless areas
to know that you can easily be a hundred miles off from where you think
you are, looking at a map. If I extrapolate that to a rain-forest
setting, that close to a border, I can easily believe someone might be
mixed up about what side of a line they're on. And yes, Cambodians and
Khmer Rouge were as respectful of those lines as anyone else during that
war- i.e., not at all, so you better believe Kerry knows what he's
saying when mentioning getting shot at by those folks.
As always, you're off the mark.
How much of this Kerry remark, which he made during a speech on the
Senate floor in 1986, do you think was on [CT]"the mark"-- all of it?:
"I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I
remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge
and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling
the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in
Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared -- seared -- in me."
Cited in
Muravchik, Joshua. 24 August 2004. "Kerry's Cambodia Whopper"
_Washington Post_, page A17, at
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27211-2004Aug23.html
Compare
[Muravchik]"....at least two of the shipmates who are supporting
Kerry's campaign (and one who is not) deny their boat ever crossed the
border, and their testimony on this score is corroborated by Kerry's
own journal, kept while on duty. One passage reproduced in Brinkley's
book ["'Tour of Duty,' a laudatory book on Kerry's military service']
says: 'The banks of the [Rach Giang Thanh River] whistled by as we
churned out mile after mile at full speed. On my left were occasional
open fields that allowed us a clear view into Cambodia. At some
points, the border was only fifty yards away and it then would meander
out to several hundred or even as much as a thousand yards away,
always making one wonder what lay on the other side.' His curiosity
was never satisfied, because this entry was from Kerry's final
mission."
Do you believe Kerry when he says he was in Russia looking at the
papers he mentioned here?:
From
http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2004a.html
"KERRY: Well, let me just say quickly that I've had an extraordinary
experience of watching up close and personal that transition in
Russia, because I was there right after the transformation. And I was
probably one of the first senators, along with Senator Bob Smith of
New Hampshire, a former senator, go down into the KGB underneath
Treblinka Square and see reams of files with names in them."
.
|
|
|
| User: "Chris Thompson" |
|
| Title: Re: GOP taking a leaf from the Discovery Institute? |
13 Oct 2004 04:55:41 PM |
|
|
(david ford) wrote in
news:dford3-b1c67abe.0410130312.12b62840@posting.google.com:
Chris Thompson <rockwallaby@TAKEOUTerols.com> wrote in message
news:<Xns957E6A1E7D90rockwallabyerolscom@207.69.189.191>...
(david ford) wrote in
news:dford3-b1c67abe.0410091851.707322b7@posting.google.com:
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote
in message news:<rf6gm0hetg5t6eeav1vlrilnpda1sv8nol@4ax.com>...
On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 (david ford) wrote:
Gary Bohn <garybohn@REMOVETHISaccesscomm.ca> wrote in message
news:<Xns957CDD28BDAE3GaryBohn@130.133.1.4>...
Klaus Hellnick <khellNOSPAMnick@houston.rr.com> wrote in
news:7oI9d.14124$sY3.7119@fe2.texas.rr.com:
macaddicted wrote:
David <daycd@hotmail.com> wrote:
[START Quote from NYTimes http://tinyurl.com/4hgj4]
But other analysts, including some Republicans, said Mr.
Bush was repeatedly taking phrases and sentences out of
context, or cherry-picking votes, to provide an unfavorable
case against Mr. Kerry.
"So much of what they are indicting is taken out of
context," said Kathleen Hall Jamieson, director of the
Annenberg Public Policy Center at the University of
Pennsylvania, and the author of a book on negative
campaigning. "It's a matter of taking sentences out of
context or parts of sentences out of context. And it's hard
for journalists to write the context back in because it
takes time.'' [END Quote]
This all sounds very familiar!
Yes, its the 98% of politicians that make the other 2% look
bad.
Yup, a totally liberal rag, whose website starts with a big
lying ad for the Democrats, writes a massively slanted
"article", only quoting liberals. A clear indication of the
slant is when it starts out by referring to "SENATOR JOHN
KERRY" and "Mr. Bush".
I noticed that Bush is so up on foreign affairs he called
Canada a third world country during the second debate. You want
*him* back in office?
From
http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2004a.html
"KERRY: Well, let me just say quickly that I've had an
extraordinary experience of watching up close and personal that
transition in Russia, because I was there right after the
transformation. And I was probably one of the first senators,
along with Senator Bob Smith of New Hampshire, a former senator,
go down into the KGB underneath Treblinka Square and see reams of
files with names in them."
What is [Kerry]"Treblinka Square"?
Wow, he got the name wrong. No way Shrug would ever
do anything like that.
Hey, he was on the right continent.
Did Kerry also get [MS]"the name wrong" when he recounted being in
Cambodia?
Do you believe Kerry when he says he was in Russia looking at the
papers he mentioned?
About Kerry and Cambodia:
Muravchik, Joshua. 24 August 2004. "Kerry's Cambodia Whopper"
_Washington Post_, page A17, at
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27211-2004Aug23.html
Muravchik is a resident scholar at the American Enterprise
Institute. In entirety:
Tiresome screed from right-wing smear-tank clipped.
Ever fought in a war, David? Ever been in the field for days or weeks
at a time? Ever been far from roads, street signs, friendly beat cops
you could ask for directions? Ever been completely reliant on maps
you're not sure you trust, in a landscape that all looks the same,
day after day after day? With people shooting at you, on top of
everything else?
No.
The point is not whether I believe him or not.
I disagree with a relative of mine on darn near every political, and
most personal issues we have discussed. One thing I won't do, though,
is second-guess his combat experiences- he was in the US Army Rangers
(left a Captain) and served in Yugoslavia, Rwanda, and Somalia. He was
on the mission to rescue the guys in the downed helicopter there, and
his stories are horrifying. Since I have never been in any situation
even close, in the absence of any evidence of an out-and-out atrocity, I
can not in conscience criticize anything he might have done.
Just as Fred Stone hasn't earned the right to call Kerry a wimp, you
haven't earned the right to second-guess Kerry in this regard. Just as
I haven't earned the right to say anything about Bush Sr.'s war record.
So take your idiotic questions, and find a nice, dark spot to insert
them.
Chris
--
"We are all capable of believing things which we know to be untrue, and
then, when we are finally proved wrong, impudently twisting the facts so
as to show that we were right. Intellectually, it is possible to carry
on this process for an indefinite time: the only check on it is that
sooner or later a false belief bumps up against solid reality, usually
on a battlefield." --George Orwell, 1946, "Under Your Nose"
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
|
| Title: Re: GOP taking a leaf from the Discovery Institute? |
13 Oct 2004 08:01:24 AM |
|
|
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 11:06:38 +0000 (UTC), (david
ford) wrote:
[snip]
How much of this Kerry remark, which he made during a speech on the
Senate floor in 1986, do you think was on [CT]"the mark"-- all of it?:
Hey, if you are wrong on all the issues. If your candidate not only
has increased the deficit more than any other president, but has been
dead wrong with every economic forecast, if your candidate has changed
his position on why we needed to invade another country, was wrong
about when it was over, if your candidate needs to make blatant lies
regarding his opponents position, then the best you can do is comment
on some 36 year old quote.
Hey, David, do you think Shrub was sober enough in 1968 to know where
Vietnam was? (We can all assume that he did not know where Cambodia
was drunk or sober.)
[snip]
--
Matt Silberstein
Stones taught me to fly
Love taught me to lie
Life taught me to die
So it's not hard to fall
When you float like a cannonball
Damien Rice
.
|
|
|
| User: "david ford" |
|
| Title: Re: GOP taking a leaf from the Discovery Institute? |
14 Oct 2004 08:24:35 AM |
|
|
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:<qv9qm0tprrelnevrocpq159g93ku14uota@4ax.com>...
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 (david ford) wrote:
[snip]
How much of this Kerry remark, which he made during a speech on the
Senate floor in 1986, do you think was on [CT]"the mark"-- all of it?:
Hey, if you are wrong on all the issues.
On the issue of partial-birth abortion, do you think Bush is [MS]"wrong"?
If your candidate not only
has increased the deficit more than any other president, but has been
dead wrong with every economic forecast, if your candidate has changed
his position on why we needed to invade another country, was wrong
about when it was over, if your candidate needs to make blatant lies
regarding his opponents position, then the best you can do is comment
on some 36 year old quote.
Hey, David, do you think Shrub was sober enough in 1968 to know where
Vietnam was? (We can all assume that he did not know where Cambodia
was drunk or sober.)
[snip]
I think that in 1968, Bush knew where Vietnam was.
I have a question for you about something said in 1986.
How much of this Kerry remark, which he made during a speech on the
Senate floor in 1986, do you think was on the mark-- all of it?:
"I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I
remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge
and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling
the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in
Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared -- seared -- in me."
Cited in
Muravchik, Joshua. 24 August 2004. "Kerry's Cambodia Whopper"
_Washington Post_, page A17, at
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27211-2004Aug23.html
Compare
[Muravchik]"....at least two of the shipmates who are supporting
Kerry's campaign (and one who is not) deny their boat ever crossed the
border, and their testimony on this score is corroborated by Kerry's
own journal, kept while on duty. One passage reproduced in Brinkley's
book ["'Tour of Duty,' a laudatory book on Kerry's military service']
says: 'The banks of the [Rach Giang Thanh River] whistled by as we
churned out mile after mile at full speed. On my left were occasional
open fields that allowed us a clear view into Cambodia. At some
points, the border was only fifty yards away and it then would meander
out to several hundred or even as much as a thousand yards away,
always making one wonder what lay on the other side.' His curiosity
was never satisfied, because this entry was from Kerry's final
mission."
.
|
|
|
| User: "Chris Thompson" |
|
| Title: Re: GOP taking a leaf from the Discovery Institute? |
14 Oct 2004 11:29:54 PM |
|
|
(david ford) wrote in
news:dford3-b1c67abe.0410140531.7bd39d05@posting.google.com:
David:
What percentage of females of Armenian-Fijiian descent whose fathers
work in tampon factories and whose mothers have an interest in obsolete
Bulgarian farm implements think that changing the formula of Coca-cola
might have influenced 17.69% of the population of the United States of
America (+/- .00427%) in their decision to eat Hershey bars, AND buy
gasoline at Gulf stations, AND eat bacon on Thursdays, AND use 10-10-5
fertilizer on their lawns instead of 10-8-12 fertilizer?
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Elmer Bataitis" |
|
| Title: Re: GOP taking a leaf from the Discovery Institute? |
14 Oct 2004 10:31:16 AM |
|
|
From: (david ford)
Organization: http://groups.google.com
Newsgroups: talk.origins,alt.atheism,sci.skeptic,talk.atheism
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:24:35 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: GOP taking a leaf from the Discovery Institute?
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:<qv9qm0tprrelnevrocpq159g93ku14uota@4ax.com>...
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 (david ford) wrote:
[snip]
How much of this Kerry remark, which he made during a speech on the
Senate floor in 1986, do you think was on [CT]"the mark"-- all of it?:
Hey, if you are wrong on all the issues.
On the issue of partial-birth abortion, do you think Bush is [MS]"wrong"?
If your candidate not only
has increased the deficit more than any other president, but has been
dead wrong with every economic forecast, if your candidate has changed
his position on why we needed to invade another country, was wrong
about when it was over, if your candidate needs to make blatant lies
regarding his opponents position, then the best you can do is comment
on some 36 year old quote.
Hey, David, do you think Shrub was sober enough in 1968 to know where
Vietnam was? (We can all assume that he did not know where Cambodia
was drunk or sober.)
[snip]
I think that in 1968, Bush knew where Vietnam was.
I have a question for you about something said in 1986.
How much of this Kerry remark, which he made during a speech on the
Senate floor in 1986, do you think was on the mark-- all of it?:
"I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I
remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge
and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling
the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in
Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared -- seared -- in me."
Cited in
Muravchik, Joshua. 24 August 2004. "Kerry's Cambodia Whopper"
_Washington Post_, page A17, at
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27211-2004Aug23.html
Compare
[Muravchik]"....at least two of the shipmates who are supporting
Kerry's campaign (and one who is not) deny their boat ever crossed the
border, and their testimony on this score is corroborated by Kerry's
own journal, kept while on duty. One passage reproduced in Brinkley's
book ["'Tour of Duty,' a laudatory book on Kerry's military service']
says: 'The banks of the [Rach Giang Thanh River] whistled by as we
churned out mile after mile at full speed. On my left were occasional
open fields that allowed us a clear view into Cambodia. At some
points, the border was only fifty yards away and it then would meander
out to several hundred or even as much as a thousand yards away,
always making one wonder what lay on the other side.' His curiosity
was never satisfied, because this entry was from Kerry's final
mission."
David, this does nothing to impeach Kerry at all. So he remembered wrong. So
what? There were all sorts of secret operations going on in Cambodia during
the war. It was one of the worst kept secrets too.
But keep posting this stuff as it just continues to glaringly point out
Dubya's avoidance of Vietnam service.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
|
| Title: Re: GOP taking a leaf from the Discovery Institute? |
14 Oct 2004 08:53:33 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:24:35 +0000 (UTC), (david
ford) wrote:
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:<qv9qm0tprrelnevrocpq159g93ku14uota@4ax.com>...
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 (david ford) wrote:
[snip]
How much of this Kerry remark, which he made during a speech on the
Senate floor in 1986, do you think was on [CT]"the mark"-- all of it?:
Hey, if you are wrong on all the issues.
On the issue of partial-birth abortion, do you think Bush is [MS]"wrong"?
If your candidate not only
has increased the deficit more than any other president, but has been
dead wrong with every economic forecast, if your candidate has changed
his position on why we needed to invade another country, was wrong
about when it was over, if your candidate needs to make blatant lies
regarding his opponents position, then the best you can do is comment
on some 36 year old quote.
Hey, David, do you think Shrub was sober enough in 1968 to know where
Vietnam was? (We can all assume that he did not know where Cambodia
was drunk or sober.)
[snip]
I think that in 1968, Bush knew where Vietnam was.
Hey, you do have a position on something. Do you think he could have
found it on a globe while he was drunk (as he often was at the time)?
I have a question for you about something said in 1986.
I am sure you do.
How much of this Kerry remark, which he made during a speech on the
Senate floor in 1986, do you think was on the mark-- all of it?:
I answered this already. I have a better one. Did Shrub make an error
when he said: ""Gosh, I just don't think I ever said I'm not worried
about Osama bin Laden. It's kind of one of those exaggerations." Do
you think that Shrub could admit that error or would he have to dance
yet again? Does it bother you at all that Shrub was accusing Kerry of
lying when it was Shrub who was wrong and Kerry was dead on right?
[snip]
--
Matt Silberstein
Stones taught me to fly
Love taught me to lie
Life taught me to die
So it's not hard to fall
When you float like a cannonball
Damien Rice
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "wbarwell" |
|
| Title: Re: GOP taking a leaf from the Discovery Institute? |
13 Oct 2004 11:02:43 PM |
|
|
Matt Silberstein wrote:
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 11:06:38 +0000 (UTC), (david
ford) wrote:
[snip]
How much of this Kerry remark, which he made during a speech on the
Senate floor in 1986, do you think was on [CT]"the mark"-- all of it?:
Hey, if you are wrong on all the issues. If your candidate not only
has increased the deficit more than any other president, but has been
dead wrong with every economic forecast, ...
Not only have deficits increased under Bush, but by
massive amounts.
And every deficit dollar is a future tax.
**********************************************
Yearly Average Real Deficits Broken
down by Presidental Administrations.
Source: www.publicdebt.treas.gov
**********************************************
Date Amount
Bush (Budget years)
10/07/2004 $7,418,151,165,657.99
09/30/2004 7,397.052,696,330.32
09/30/2003 6.783,231,062,743.62
09/30/2002 6,228,235,965,597.16
$7.419 trillions
- 5.807
-------
$1.611 trillion / 3 budget years
= $537 billions average deficit per year
----------------------------------
Clinton
09/28/2001 $5,807,463,412,200.06
09/30/2000 5,674,178,209,886.86
09/30/1999 5,656,270,901,615.43
09/30/1998 5,526,193,008,897.62
09/30/1997 5,413,146,011,397.34
09/30/1996 5,224,810,939,135.73
09/29/1995 4,973,982,900,709.39
09/30/1994 4,692,749,910,013.32
$5.807 trillions
- 4.411
--------
1.396 trillions / 8 budget years
= $174.5 billion average deficit per budget year
----------------------------------
Bush
09/30/1993 4,411,488,883,139.38
09/30/1992 4,064,620,655,521.66
09/30/1991 3,665,303,351,697.03
09/28/1990 3,233,313,451,777.25
$4.411 trillions
- 2.587
---------
1.824 trillions / 4 budget years
= $456 billions average deficit per budget year
----------------------------------
Reagan
09/29/1989 2,857,430,960,187.32
09/30/1988 2,602,337,712,041.16
09/30/1987 2,350,276,890,953.00
09/30/1986 2,125,302,616,658.42
12/31/1985 1,945,941,616,459.88
12/31/1984 1,662,966,000,000.00
12/31/1983 1,410,702,000,000.00
12/31/1982 1,197,073,000,000.00
$2.857 trillions
- 1.029
--------
$1.846
= $228.5 billions average deficit per budget year
----------------------------------
Carter
12/31/1981 1,028,729,000,000.00
12/31/1980 930,210,000,000.00
12/31/1979 845,116,000,000.00
12/29/1978 789,207,000,000.00
$1.029 trillions
- 719 billions
----------
$238 billions / 4 budget years
= $59.5 billions deficits average per budget year
----------------------------------
Nixon/Ford
12/30/1977 718,943,000,000.00
12/31/1976 653,544,000,000.00
12/31/1975 576,649,000,000.00
12/31/1974 492,665,000,000.00
12/31/1973 469,898,039,554.70
12/29/1972 449,298,066,119.00
12/31/1971 424,130,961,959.95
12/31/1970 389,158,403,690.26
$719 billions
- 368 billions
---------------
$351 billions / 4 budget years
= $43.9 billions average deficit per budget year
------------------------------------
Kennedy/Johnson
12/31/1969 368,225,581,254.41
12/31/1968 358,028,625,002.91
12/29/1967 344,663,009,745.18
12/30/1966 329,319,249,366.68
12/31/1965 320,904,110,042.04
12/31/1964 317,940,472,718.38
12/31/1963 309,346,845,059.17
12/31/1964 303,470,080,489.27
$368 billions
- 296 billions
---------------
$72 billons / 8 budget years
= $9 billion average deficit per budget year
-----------------------------------
Eisenhower
12/29/1961 296,168,761,214.92
12/30/1960 290,216,815,241.68
12/31/1959 290,797,771,717.63
12/31/1958 282,922,423,583.87
12/31/1957 274,897,784,290.72
12/31/1956 276,627,527,996.11
12/30/1955 280,768,553,188.96
12/31/1954 278,749,814,391.33
$296 billions
- 275 billions
-------------
$21 billions / 8 budget years
= $2.625 billions average deficit per budget year
----------------------------------
Truman
12/31/1953 275,168,120,129.39
06/30/1953 266,071,061,638.57
06/30/1952 259,105,178,785.43
06/29/1951 255,221,976,814.93
06/30/1950 257,357,352,351.04
06/30/1949 252,770,359,860.33
$275 billions
- 253
------
$24 billions / 4 budget years
= $6 billions average deficit per budget year
**********************************************
if your candidate has changed
his position on why we needed to invade another country, was wrong
about when it was over, if your candidate needs to make blatant lies
regarding his opponents position, then the best you can do is comment
on some 36 year old quote.
Hey, David, do you think Shrub was sober enough in 1968 to know where
Vietnam was? (We can all assume that he did not know where Cambodia
was drunk or sober.)
[snip]
--
Kerry - two medals a silver and bronze star.
Bush? Well they don't give medals
for going AWOL, missing your medical and
getting grounded or falling off of a bar stool.
Kerry - a hero, Bush - a zero
Cheerful Charlie
.
|
|
|
| User: "John Wilkins" |
|
| Title: Re: GOP taking a leaf from the Discovery Institute? |
13 Oct 2004 11:22:22 PM |
|
|
wbarwell <wbarwell@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
Matt Silberstein wrote:
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 11:06:38 +0000 (UTC), (david
ford) wrote:
[snip]
How much of this Kerry remark, which he made during a speech on the
Senate floor in 1986, do you think was on [CT]"the mark"-- all of it?:
Hey, if you are wrong on all the issues. If your candidate not only
has increased the deficit more than any other president, but has been
dead wrong with every economic forecast, ...
It looks to me from the table below that Republican governments are
worse at deficit spending than Democrat administrations. I can't see
from these figures that fiscal responsibility has *ever* been a
Republican virtue, postwar...
Not only have deficits increased under Bush, but by
massive amounts.
And every deficit dollar is a future tax.
**********************************************
Yearly Average Real Deficits Broken
down by Presidental Administrations.
Source: www.publicdebt.treas.gov
**********************************************
Date Amount
Bush (Budget years)
10/07/2004 $7,418,151,165,657.99
09/30/2004 7,397.052,696,330.32
09/30/2003 6.783,231,062,743.62
09/30/2002 6,228,235,965,597.16
$7.419 trillions
- 5.807
-------
$1.611 trillion / 3 budget years
= $537 billions average deficit per year
----------------------------------
Clinton
09/28/2001 $5,807,463,412,200.06
09/30/2000 5,674,178,209,886.86
09/30/1999 5,656,270,901,615.43
09/30/1998 5,526,193,008,897.62
09/30/1997 5,413,146,011,397.34
09/30/1996 5,224,810,939,135.73
09/29/1995 4,973,982,900,709.39
09/30/1994 4,692,749,910,013.32
$5.807 trillions
- 4.411
--------
1.396 trillions / 8 budget years
= $174.5 billion average deficit per budget year
----------------------------------
Bush
09/30/1993 4,411,488,883,139.38
09/30/1992 4,064,620,655,521.66
09/30/1991 3,665,303,351,697.03
09/28/1990 3,233,313,451,777.25
$4.411 trillions
- 2.587
---------
1.824 trillions / 4 budget years
= $456 billions average deficit per budget year
----------------------------------
Reagan
09/29/1989 2,857,430,960,187.32
09/30/1988 2,602,337,712,041.16
09/30/1987 2,350,276,890,953.00
09/30/1986 2,125,302,616,658.42
12/31/1985 1,945,941,616,459.88
12/31/1984 1,662,966,000,000.00
12/31/1983 1,410,702,000,000.00
12/31/1982 1,197,073,000,000.00
$2.857 trillions
- 1.029
--------
$1.846
= $228.5 billions average deficit per budget year
----------------------------------
Carter
12/31/1981 1,028,729,000,000.00
12/31/1980 930,210,000,000.00
12/31/1979 845,116,000,000.00
12/29/1978 789,207,000,000.00
$1.029 trillions
- 719 billions
----------
$238 billions / 4 budget years
= $59.5 billions deficits average per budget year
----------------------------------
Nixon/Ford
12/30/1977 718,943,000,000.00
12/31/1976 653,544,000,000.00
12/31/1975 576,649,000,000.00
12/31/1974 492,665,000,000.00
12/31/1973 469,898,039,554.70
12/29/1972 449,298,066,119.00
12/31/1971 424,130,961,959.95
12/31/1970 389,158,403,690.26
$719 billions
- 368 billions
---------------
$351 billions / 4 budget years
= $43.9 billions average deficit per budget year
------------------------------------
Kennedy/Johnson
12/31/1969 368,225,581,254.41
12/31/1968 358,028,625,002.91
12/29/1967 344,663,009,745.18
12/30/1966 329,319,249,366.68
12/31/1965 320,904,110,042.04
12/31/1964 317,940,472,718.38
12/31/1963 309,346,845,059.17
12/31/1964 303,470,080,489.27
$368 billions
- 296 billions
---------------
$72 billons / 8 budget years
= $9 billion average deficit per budget year
-----------------------------------
Eisenhower
12/29/1961 296,168,761,214.92
12/30/1960 290,216,815,241.68
12/31/1959 290,797,771,717.63
12/31/1958 282,922,423,583.87
12/31/1957 274,897,784,290.72
12/31/1956 276,627,527,996.11
12/30/1955 280,768,553,188.96
12/31/1954 278,749,814,391.33
$296 billions
- 275 billions
-------------
$21 billions / 8 budget years
= $2.625 billions average deficit per budget year
----------------------------------
Truman
12/31/1953 275,168,120,129.39
06/30/1953 266,071,061,638.57
06/30/1952 259,105,178,785.43
06/29/1951 255,221,976,814.93
06/30/1950 257,357,352,351.04
06/30/1949 252,770,359,860.33
$275 billions
- 253
------
$24 billions / 4 budget years
= $6 billions average deficit per budget year
**********************************************
if your candidate has changed
his position on why we needed to invade another country, was wrong
about when it was over, if your candidate needs to make blatant lies
regarding his opponents position, then the best you can do is comment
on some 36 year old quote.
Hey, David, do you think Shrub was sober enough in 1968 to know where
Vietnam was? (We can all assume that he did not know where Cambodia
was drunk or sober.)
[snip]
--
John S. Wilkins
web: www.wilkins.id.au blog: evolvethought.blogspot.com
God cheats
.
|
|
|
| User: "Dick C" |
|
| Title: Re: GOP taking a leaf from the Discovery Institute? |
14 Oct 2004 10:30:38 AM |
|
|
John Wilkins wrote in talk.origins
It looks to me from the table below that Republican governments are
worse at deficit spending than Democrat administrations. I can't see
from these figures that fiscal responsibility has *ever* been a
Republican virtue, postwar...
There is a whole lot behind those figures that is not shown.
After WWII, the U.S. at first decreased the size of the military,
but also needed to develop new weapons for the cold war. Plus
we had the fight in Korea to pay for, and we were giving huge
amounts of money away for foreign affairs. On the other hand,
we had the only economy to really survive WWII intact, and
we could sell almost everything we built overseas.
In the 1960's, the other economies really started to pickup,
and we started to see the effects of that. Plus we were building
up a nice debt from the Viet Nam war, the Cold War, and the
Space Race. In the mid 70's we had the oil embargo added to
the mix. Carter inherited a bad economy. Reagan killed the
economy in order to attempt to fix it. But he mostly killed it.
Bush Sr. struggled with the economy, although during his last
presidential race he thought the economy was strong. The voters
knew differently. Clinton got a weak, but recovering, economy.
And one of the major points throughout the 90's was to reduce
the deficit, and balance the budget. The goals were met, and when
Bush took office, all the Republicans wanted to give away any
money saved, rather either use it to actually reduce debt, or
save it for bad times. Thus we had a series of tax cuts, while
spending increased. Just exactly the opposite of what had been
preached just a couple of years earlier.
The republican cries of fiscal responsibility are just strawmen
aimed at the supposed "tax and spend" Democrats. The Republicans
are more of the don't tax, but spend like you do.
snip
--
***** #1349
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
~Benjamin Franklin
Home Page: dickcr.iwarp.com
email:
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "wbarwell" |
|
| Title: Re: GOP taking a leaf from the Discovery Institute? |
14 Oct 2004 06:14:11 AM |
|
|
John Wilkins wrote:
wbarwell <wbarwell@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
Matt Silberstein wrote:
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 11:06:38 +0000 (UTC), (david
ford) wrote:
[snip]
How much of this Kerry remark, which he made during a speech on the
Senate floor in 1986, do you think was on [CT]"the mark"-- all of it?:
Hey, if you are wrong on all the issues. If your candidate not only
has increased the deficit more than any other president, but has been
dead wrong with every economic forecast, ...
It looks to me from the table below that Republican governments are
worse at deficit spending than Democrat administrations. I can't see
from these figures that fiscal responsibility has *ever* been a
Republican virtue, postwar...
We have $7.418 trillion in deficits.
It took 200 years to get to $1 trillion in deficits
in Carter's last year, 1981 we had $1.029 trillion
in deficits. Clinton over 8 years total gave
us $1.396 trillions. The rest, $4.993 trillions
came from 3 GOP presidents, Reagan, Bush and Bush.
That's $16,643 per American, $66,573 per family of four.
Or enough to buy each American a rather decent car.
Or tuition for a college education.
We are paying about 1/5 of each tax dollar just
on interest on this national debt. Had this debt been
paid off starting with Reagan, rather than run up
to the now total $7.418 trillion, we could have had a
20% tax cut, a real tax cut.
http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdpdodt.htm
Its amazing to me nobody ever seems to look at the numbers
and do a bit of simple math.
Cheerful Charlie
Not only have deficits increased under Bush, but by
massive amounts.
And every deficit dollar is a future tax.
**********************************************
Yearly Average Real Deficits Broken
down by Presidental Administrations.
Source: www.publicdebt.treas.gov
**********************************************
Date Amount
Bush (Budget years)
10/07/2004 $7,418,151,165,657.99
09/30/2004 7,397.052,696,330.32
09/30/2003 6.783,231,062,743.62
09/30/2002 6,228,235,965,597.16
$7.419 trillions
- 5.807
-------
$1.611 trillion / 3 budget years
= $537 billions average deficit per year
----------------------------------
Clinton
09/28/2001 $5,807,463,412,200.06
09/30/2000 5,674,178,209,886.86
09/30/1999 5,656,270,901,615.43
09/30/1998 5,526,193,008,897.62
09/30/1997 5,413,146,011,397.34
09/30/1996 5,224,810,939,135.73
09/29/1995 4,973,982,900,709.39
09/30/1994 4,692,749,910,013.32
$5.807 trillions
- 4.411
--------
1.396 trillions / 8 budget years
= $174.5 billion average deficit per budget year
----------------------------------
Bush
09/30/1993 4,411,488,883,139.38
09/30/1992 4,064,620,655,521.66
09/30/1991 3,665,303,351,697.03
09/28/1990 3,233,313,451,777.25
$4.411 trillions
- 2.587
---------
1.824 trillions / 4 budget years
= $456 billions average deficit per budget year
----------------------------------
Reagan
09/29/1989 2,857,430,960,187.32
09/30/1988 2,602,337,712,041.16
09/30/1987 2,350,276,890,953.00
09/30/1986 2,125,302,616,658.42
12/31/1985 1,945,941,616,459.88
12/31/1984 1,662,966,000,000.00
12/31/1983 1,410,702,000,000.00
12/31/1982 1,197,073,000,000.00
$2.857 trillions
- 1.029
--------
$1.846
= $228.5 billions average deficit per budget year
----------------------------------
Carter
12/31/1981 1,028,729,000,000.00
12/31/1980 930,210,000,000.00
12/31/1979 845,116,000,000.00
12/29/1978 789,207,000,000.00
$1.029 trillions
- 719 billions
----------
$238 billions / 4 budget years
= $59.5 billions deficits average per budget year
----------------------------------
Nixon/Ford
12/30/1977 718,943,000,000.00
12/31/1976 653,544,000,000.00
12/31/1975 576,649,000,000.00
12/31/1974 492,665,000,000.00
12/31/1973 469,898,039,554.70
12/29/1972 449,298,066,119.00
12/31/1971 424,130,961,959.95
12/31/1970 389,158,403,690.26
$719 billions
- 368 billions
---------------
$351 billions / 4 budget years
= $43.9 billions average deficit per budget year
------------------------------------
Kennedy/Johnson
12/31/1969 368,225,581,254.41
12/31/1968 358,028,625,002.91
12/29/1967 344,663,009,745.18
12/30/1966 329,319,249,366.68
12/31/1965 320,904,110,042.04
12/31/1964 317,940,472,718.38
12/31/1963 309,346,845,059.17
12/31/1964 303,470,080,489.27
$368 billions
- 296 billions
---------------
$72 billons / 8 budget years
= $9 billion average deficit per budget year
-----------------------------------
Eisenhower
12/29/1961 296,168,761,214.92
12/30/1960 290,216,815,241.68
12/31/1959 290,797,771,717.63
12/31/1958 282,922,423,583.87
12/31/1957 274,897,784,290.72
12/31/1956 276,627,527,996.11
12/30/1955 280,768,553,188.96
12/31/1954 278,749,814,391.33
$296 billions
- 275 billions
-------------
$21 billions / 8 budget years
= $2.625 billions average deficit per budget year
----------------------------------
Truman
12/31/1953 275,168,120,129.39
06/30/1953 266,071,061,638.57
06/30/1952 259,105,178,785.43
06/29/1951 255,221,976,814.93
06/30/1950 257,357,352,351.04
06/30/1949 252,770,359,860.33
$275 billions
- 253
------
$24 billions / 4 budget years
= $6 billions average deficit per budget year
**********************************************
if your candidate has changed
his position on why we needed to invade another country, was wrong
about when it was over, if your candidate needs to make blatant lies
regarding his opponents position, then the best you can do is comment
on some 36 year old quote.
Hey, David, do you think Shrub was sober enough in 1968 to know where
Vietnam was? (We can all assume that he did not know where Cambodia
was drunk or sober.)
[snip]
--
Kerry - two medals a silver and bronze star.
Bush? Well they don't give medals
for going AWOL, missing your medical and
getting grounded or falling off of a bar stool.
Kerry - a hero, Bush - a zero
Cheerful Charlie
.
|
|
|
| User: "Ferrous Patella" |
|
| Title: Re: GOP taking a leaf from the Discovery Institute? |
14 Oct 2004 12:21:23 PM |
|
|
news:416e60f5$0$171$811e409b@news.mylinuxisp.com by wbarwell
<wbarwell@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com>:
We have $7.418 trillion in deficits.
It took 200 years to get to $1 trillion in deficits
in Carter's last year, 1981 we had $1.029 trillion
in deficits. Clinton over 8 years total gave
us $1.396 trillions. The rest, $4.993 trillions
came from 3 GOP presidents, Reagan, Bush and Bush.
That's $16,643 per American, $66,573 per family of four.
Or enough to buy each American a rather decent car.
Or tuition for a college education.
We are paying about 1/5 of each tax dollar just
on interest on this national debt. Had this debt been
paid off starting with Reagan, rather than run up
to the now total $7.418 trillion, we could have had a
20% tax cut, a real tax cut.
Not to mention the effect on interest rates. Paying off the (USAian)
national debt would be the best way to put money in people's pockets and
jumpstart the economy. Mortgage rate would drop, making housing more
affordable. More money would be available to invest into businesses at
cheaper rates.
The last tax cut was a quintuple hit on the middle class:
1. It greatly shifted the tax burden away from the top 2-5% to the middle
income families.
2. It was deficit spending, which means not only do we pay more but we
have to pay the additional compounded interest for years to come.
3. It tightens the money market, driving up interest rates for home loans
and ...
4. business loans which beats down the economy and job market.
5. Much of the interest money leaves the country to foreign lenders, who
then invests it in outsourced competition.
Meanwhile the top income bracket, who gets the greatest benefit from the
tax break, turns around and lends that tax break to the government to
cover the deficit that was just created by that tax break.
http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdpdodt.htm
Its amazing to me nobody ever seems to look at the numbers
and do a bit of simple math.
Cheerful Charlie
--
Ferrous Patella (Homo gerardii)
T.A., Philosophy Lab
University of Ediacara
"Nature as God's "reality" show - what a concept!"
--A t.o. poster who wishes to remain anonymous
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
|
| Title: Re: GOP taking a leaf from the Discovery Institute? |
14 Oct 2004 07:30:16 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 04:22:22 +0000 (UTC), (John
Wilkins) wrote:
wbarwell <wbarwell@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
Matt Silberstein wrote:
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 11:06:38 +0000 (UTC), (david
ford) wrote:
[snip]
How much of this Kerry remark, which he made during a speech on the
Senate floor in 1986, do you think was on [CT]"the mark"-- all of it?:
Hey, if you are wrong on all the issues. If your candidate not only
has increased the deficit more than any other president, but has been
dead wrong with every economic forecast, ...
It looks to me from the table below that Republican governments are
worse at deficit spending than Democrat administrations. I can't see
from these figures that fiscal responsibility has *ever* been a
Republican virtue, postwar...
How do we determine virtues? By intent, by words, or by action? By
action hypocrisy has been the most prominent Republican virtue in the
last 30 or so years. Failure to pay for things is but an widespread
example of this.
Not only have deficits increased under Bush, but by
massive amounts.
And every deficit dollar is a future tax.
**********************************************
Yearly Average Real Deficits Broken
down by Presidental Administrations.
Source: www.publicdebt.treas.gov
**********************************************
Date Amount
Bush (Budget years)
10/07/2004 $7,418,151,165,657.99
09/30/2004 7,397.052,696,330.32
09/30/2003 6.783,231,062,743.62
09/30/2002 6,228,235,965,597.16
$7.419 trillions
- 5.807
-------
$1.611 trillion / 3 budget years
= $537 billions average deficit per year
----------------------------------
Clinton
09/28/2001 $5,807,463,412,200.06
09/30/2000 5,674,178,209,886.86
09/30/1999 5,656,270,901,615.43
09/30/1998 5,526,193,008,897.62
09/30/1997 5,413,146,011,397.34
09/30/1996 5,224,810,939,135.73
09/29/1995 4,973,982,900,709.39
09/30/1994 4,692,749,910,013.32
$5.807 trillions
- 4.411
--------
1.396 trillions / 8 budget years
= $174.5 billion average deficit per budget year
----------------------------------
Bush
09/30/1993 4,411,488,883,139.38
09/30/1992 4,064,620,655,521.66
09/30/1991 3,665,303,351,697.03
09/28/1990 3,233,313,451,777.25
$4.411 trillions
- 2.587
---------
1.824 trillions / 4 budget years
= $456 billions average deficit per budget year
----------------------------------
Reagan
09/29/1989 2,857,430,960,187.32
09/30/1988 2,602,337,712,041.16
09/30/1987 2,350,276,890,953.00
09/30/1986 2,125,302,616,658.42
12/31/1985 1,945,941,616,459.88
12/31/1984 1,662,966,000,000.00
12/31/1983 1,410,702,000,000.00
12/31/1982 1,197,073,000,000.00
$2.857 trillions
- 1.029
--------
$1.846
= $228.5 billions average deficit per budget year
----------------------------------
Carter
12/31/1981 1,028,729,000,000.00
12/31/1980 930,210,000,000.00
12/31/1979 845,116,000,000.00
12/29/1978 789,207,000,000.00
$1.029 trillions
- 719 billions
----------
$238 billions / 4 budget years
= $59.5 billions deficits average per budget year
----------------------------------
Nixon/Ford
12/30/1977 718,943,000,000.00
12/31/1976 653,544,000,000.00
12/31/1975 576,649,000,000.00
12/31/1974 492,665,000,000.00
12/31/1973 469,898,039,554.70
12/29/1972 449,298,066,119.00
12/31/1971 424,130,961,959.95
12/31/1970 389,158,403,690.26
$719 billions
- 368 billions
---------------
$351 billions / 4 budget years
= $43.9 billions average deficit per budget year
------------------------------------
Kennedy/Johnson
12/31/1969 368,225,581,254.41
12/31/1968 358,028,625,002.91
12/29/1967 344,663,009,745.18
12/30/1966 329,319,249,366.68
12/31/1965 320,904,110,042.04
12/31/1964 317,940,472,718.38
12/31/1963 309,346,845,059.17
12/31/1964 303,470,080,489.27
$368 billions
- 296 billions
---------------
$72 billons / 8 budget years
= $9 billion average deficit per budget year
-----------------------------------
Eisenhower
12/29/1961 296,168,761,214.92
12/30/1960 290,216,815,241.68
12/31/1959 290,797,771,717.63
12/31/1958 282,922,423,583.87
12/31/1957 274,897,784,290.72
12/31/1956 276,627,527,996.11
12/30/1955 280,768,553,188.96
12/31/1954 278,749,814,391.33
$296 billions
- 275 billions
-------------
$21 billions / 8 budget years
= $2.625 billions average deficit per budget year
----------------------------------
Truman
12/31/1953 275,168,120,129.39
06/30/1953 266,071,061,638.57
06/30/1952 259,105,178,785.43
06/29/1951 255,221,976,814.93
06/30/1950 257,357,352,351.04
06/30/1949 252,770,359,860.33
$275 billions
- 253
------
$24 billions / 4 budget years
= $6 billions average deficit per budget year
**********************************************
if your candidate has changed
his position on why we needed to invade another country, was wrong
about when it was over, if your candidate needs to make blatant lies
regarding his opponents position, then the best you can do is comment
on some 36 year old quote.
Hey, David, do you think Shrub was sober enough in 1968 to know where
Vietnam was? (We can all assume that he did not know where Cambodia
was drunk or sober.)
[snip]
--
Matt Silberstein
Stones taught me to fly
Love taught me to lie
Life taught me to die
So it's not hard to fall
When you float like a cannonball
Damien Rice
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
|
| Title: Re: GOP taking a leaf from the Discovery Institute? |
10 Oct 2004 10:12:15 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 02:45:33 +0000 (UTC), (david
ford) wrote:
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:<rf6gm0hetg5t6eeav1vlrilnpda1sv8nol@4ax.com>...
On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 (david ford) wrote:
Gary Bohn <garybohn@REMOVETHISaccesscomm.ca> wrote in message news:<Xns957CDD28BDAE3GaryBohn@130.133.1.4>...
Klaus Hellnick <khellNOSPAMnick@houston.rr.com> wrote in news:7oI9d.14124$sY3.7119@fe2.texas.rr.com:
macaddicted wrote:
David <daycd@hotmail.com> wrote:
[START Quote from NYTimes http://tinyurl.com/4hgj4]
But other analysts, including some Republicans, said Mr. Bush was
repeatedly taking phrases and sentences out of context, or
cherry-picking votes, to provide an unfavorable case against Mr.
Kerry.
"So much of what they are indicting is taken out of context," said
Kathleen Hall Jamieson, director of the Annenberg Public Policy
Center at the University of Pennsylvania, and the author of a book on
negative campaigning. "It's a matter of taking sentences out of
context or parts of sentences out of context. And it's hard for
journalists to write the context back in because it takes time.''
[END Quote]
This all sounds very familiar!
Yes, its the 98% of politicians that make the other 2% look bad.
Yup, a totally liberal rag, whose website starts with a big lying ad
for the Democrats, writes a massively slanted "article", only quoting
liberals. A clear indication of the slant is when it starts out by
referring to "SENATOR JOHN KERRY" and "Mr. Bush".
I noticed that Bush is so up on foreign affairs he called Canada a third
world country during the second debate. You want *him* back in office?
From
http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2004a.html
"KERRY: Well, let me just say quickly that I've had an extraordinary
experience of watching up close and personal that transition in
Russia, because I was there right after the transformation. And I was
probably one of the first senators, along with Senator Bob Smith of
New Hampshire, a former senator, go down into the KGB underneath
Treblinka Square and see reams of files with names in them."
What is [Kerry]"Treblinka Square"?
Wow, he got the name wrong. No way Shrug would ever
do anything like that.
Did Kerry also get [MS]"the name wrong" when he recounted being in
Cambodia?
Did Shrub make a simple mistake when he said "they attacked us" when
"they" did not attack up?
Did Shrub make a simple mistake when every year he says that his tax
cuts will cut the deficit and every year the deficit increases?
Did Shrub make a simple mistake when he cut funding for Afghanistan
after we invaded Iraq?
Did Shrub make a simple mistake when he said that 10 million people
had register to vote in Afghanistan, more than are eligible to vote?
Did Shrub make a simple mistake when he sent troops off to fight a war
without body armor or armored vehicles, and then attacks his opponent
for disagreeing on how to pay for a *supplemental" bill?
Did Shrub make a simple mistake when he said that the general said how
many troops we would need, but not one general has been sacked, or
even reprimanded, for screwing up so badly?
Did Shrub make a simple mistake when he failed to ask for full funding
of No Child Left Behind?
Did Shrub make a simple mistake when he said the air was cleaner and
neglected to mention that during a recession, when manufacturing jobs
are going overseas, pollution drops?
Do you believe Kerry when he says he was in Russia looking at the
papers he mentioned?
Yes.
[snip]
--
Matt Silberstein
Stones taught me to fly
Love taught me to lie
Life taught me to die
So it's not hard to fall
When you float like a cannonball
Damien Rice
.
|
|
|
| User: "david ford" |
|
| Title: Re: GOP taking a leaf from the Discovery Institute? |
12 Oct 2004 07:50:59 PM |
|
|
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:<0bkim051aomloectblpag7hlj9m40dkd7v@4ax.com>...
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 (david ford) wrote:
Matt Silberstein <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:<rf6gm0hetg5t6eeav1vlrilnpda1sv8nol@4ax.com>...
On Sat, 9 Oct 2004 (david ford) wrote:
Gary Bohn <garybohn@REMOVETHISaccesscomm.ca> wrote in message news:<Xns957CDD28BDAE3GaryBohn@130.133.1.4>...
Klaus Hellnick <khellNOSPAMnick@houston.rr.com> wrote in news:7oI9d.14124$sY3.7119@fe2.texas.rr.com:
macaddicted wrote:
David <daycd@hotmail.com> wrote:
[START Quote from NYTimes http://tinyurl.com/4hgj4]
But other analysts, including some Republicans, said Mr. Bush was
repeatedly taking phrases and sentences out of context, or
cherry-picking votes, to provide an unfavorable case against Mr.
Kerry.
"So much of what they are indicting is taken out of context," said
Kathleen Hall Jamieson, director of the Annenberg Public Policy
Center at the University of Pennsylvania, and the author of a book on
negative campaigning. "It's a matter of taking sentences out of
context or parts of sentences out of context. And it's hard for
journalists to write the context back in because it takes time.''
[END Quote]
This all sounds very familiar!
Yes, its the 98% of politicians that make the other 2% look bad.
Yup, a totally liberal rag, whose website starts with a big lying ad
for the Democrats, writes a massively slanted "article", only quoting
liberals. A clear indication of the slant is when it starts out by
referring to "SENATOR JOHN KERRY" and "Mr. Bush".
I noticed that Bush is so up on foreign affairs he called Canada a third
world country during the second debate. You want *him* back in office?
From
http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2004a.html
"KERRY: Well, let me just say quickly that I've had an extraordinary
experience of watching up close and personal that transition in
Russia, because I was there right after the transformation. And I was
probably one of the first senators, along with Senator Bob Smith of
New Hampshire, a former senator, go down into the KGB underneath
Treblinka Square and see reams of files with names in them."
What is [Kerry]"Treblinka Square"?
Wow, he got the name wrong. No way Shrug would ever
do anything like that.
Did Kerry also get [MS]"the name wrong" when he recounted being in
Cambodia?
Did Shrub make a simple mistake when he said "they attacked us" when
"they" did not attack up?
Did Shrub make a simple mistake when every year he says that his tax
cuts will cut the deficit and every year the deficit increases?
Did Shrub make a simple mistake when he cut funding for Afghanistan
after we invaded Iraq?
Did Shrub make a simple mistake when he said that 10 million people
had register to vote in Afghanistan, more than are eligible to vote?
Did Shrub make a simple mistake when he sent troops off to fight a war
without body armor or armored vehicles, and then attacks his opponent
for disagreeing on how to pay for a *supplemental" bill?
Did Shrub make a simple mistake when he said that the general said how
many troops we would need, but not one general has been sacked, or
even reprimanded, for screwing up so badly?
Did Shrub make a simple mistake when he failed to ask for full funding
of No Child Left Behind?
Did Shrub make a simple mistake when he said the air was cleaner and
neglected to mention that during a recession, when manufacturing jobs
are going overseas, pollution drops?
You have given me and lurkers no reason to accept as correct the
factual-type elements of your questions. For example, you allege that
Bush has said certain things, I wasn't aware Bush said the things you
claim he said, and you've given no references to support your
allegations that Bush said those things. I don't accept the premises
of your questions.
Do you believe Kerry when he says he was in Russia looking at the
papers he mentioned?
Yes.
[snip]
How much of this Kerry remark, which he made during a speech on the
Senate floor in 1986, do you believe?:
"I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I
remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge
and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling
the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in
Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared -- seared -- in me."
Cited in
Muravchik, Joshua. 24 August 2004. "Kerry's Cambodia Whopper"
_Washington Post_, page A17, at
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27211-2004Aug23.html
.
|
|
|
| User: "Elmer Bataitis" |
|
| Title: Re: GOP taking a leaf from the Discovery Institute? |
12 Oct 2004 08:59:19 PM |
|
|
From: (david ford)
(snip)
How much of this Kerry remark, which he made during a speech on the
Senate floor in 1986, do you believe?:
"I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I
remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge
and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling
the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in
Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared -- seared -- in me."
Cited in
Muravchik, Joshua. 24 August 2004. "Kerry's Cambodia Whopper"
_Washington Post_, page A17, at
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27211-2004Aug23.html
And where was George Dubua when Kerry was in Vietnam getting shot at by
whomever?
How much fire did Dubua take?
How many medals did George Dubua get for his National Guard service?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Michelle Malkin" |
|
| Title: Re: GOP taking a leaf from the Discovery Institute? |
12 Oct 2004 10:23:50 PM |
|
|
"Elmer Bataitis" <nylicens@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:BD9205A9.9DB8%nylicens@frontiernet.net...
From: (david ford)
(snip)
How much of this Kerry remark, which he made during a speech on the
Senate floor in 1986, do you believe?:
"I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I
remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge
and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling
the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in
Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared -- seared -- in me."
Cited in
Muravchik, Joshua. 24 August 2004. "Kerry's Cambodia Whopper"
_Washington Post_, page A17, at
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27211-2004Aug23.html
And where was George Dubua when Kerry was in Vietnam getting shot at by
whomever?
How much fire did Dubua take?
Just from his daddy telling him what a worthless son of a
Barbara he was
How many medals did George Dubua get for his National Guard service?
The Order of the Crossed Doobies Award.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "david ford" |
|
| Title: Re: GOP taking a leaf from the Discovery Institute? |
13 Oct 2004 06:14:12 AM |
|
|
Elmer Bataitis <nylicens@frontiernet.net> wrote in message news:<BD9205A9.9DB8%nylicens@frontiernet.net>...
dford3@gl.umbc.edu (david ford):
(snip)
How much of this Kerry remark, which he made during a speech on the
Senate floor in 1986, do you believe?:
"I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I
remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge
and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling
the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in
Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared -- seared -- in me."
Cited in
Muravchik, Joshua. 24 August 2004. "Kerry's Cambodia Whopper"
_Washington Post_, page A17, at
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27211-2004Aug23.html
And where was George Dubua when Kerry was in Vietnam getting shot at by
whomever?
The National Guard.
How much fire did Dubua take?
None that I know of.
How many medals did George Dubua get for his National Guard service?
None that I know of.
Speaking of medals, do you think Kerry deserved all of the medals he
was awarded during his time in Vietnam?
How much of this Kerry remark, which he made during a speech on the
Senate floor in 1986, do you think was on the mark-- all of it?:
"I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I
remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge
and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling
the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in
Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared -- seared -- in me."
Cited in
Muravchik, Joshua. 24 August 2004. "Kerry's Cambodia Whopper"
_Washington Post_, page A17, at
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27211-2004Aug23.html
Compare
[Muravchik]"....at least two of the shipmates who are supporting
Kerry's campaign (and one who is not) deny their boat ever crossed the
border, and their testimony on this score is corroborated by Kerry's
own journal, kept while on duty. One passage reproduced in Brinkley's
book ["'Tour of Duty,' a laudatory book on Kerry's military service']
says: 'The banks of the [Rach Giang Thanh River] whistled by as we
churned out mile after mile at full speed. On my left were occasional
open fields that allowed us a clear view into Cambodia. At some
points, the border was only fifty yards away and it then would meander
out to several hundred or even as much as a thousand yards away,
always making one wonder what lay on the other side.' His curiosity
was never satisfied, because this entry was from Kerry's final
mission."
.
|
|
| | | | |
