Re: Government churches should be constitutionally rabid

Religions > Atheism > Re: Government churches should be constitutionally rabid

LINK TO THIS PAGE

rating : 0 | 0

Page 1 of 3

Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	""
Date:	12 Nov 2003 05:52:15 AM
Object:	Re: Government churches should be constitutionally rabid

(ambrose searle aka richard gardiner) wrote:

:|buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote in message news:<esq1rvku2qdpuag6g8ugih8m763n7snh1g@4ax.com>...
:|>
:|> Thus, factually speaking James Madison was the man who was most responsible
:|> for the separation of church and state which flourishes in this country
:|
:|Agreed. Madison, however, credited Martin Luther with being the
:|individual who "led the way" in paving the road for this distinction.
:|
:|http://personal.pitnet.net/primarysources/madisonluther.html

(1) Gardiner AKA Searle is giving a URL to one of his own old web sites
(2) My Reply will be found in the newly posted article
Christian Orthodoxy And The Founders
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/orthodox.htm
in the following article URL found in that newly posted article
TO F. L. Schaeffer (only mention of Luther in any of Madison's writings
found to date) and references to Blackstone in Madison's writings
[12-30-99]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=387669cf.12171966%40news.exis.net&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain

:|
:|Furthermore, Madison's explicitly stated reason for wanting this
:|separation was to avoid "dishonoring Christianity."
:|
:|(James Madison, Notes, Speech to the Virginia Assembly, 1784; V:10.)

My Reply will be found in the newly posted article
Christian Orthodoxy And The Founders
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/orthodox.htm

:|You see, your big hero, James Madison, rightly believed, with Luther,
:|that Christianity is corrupted when it engages in coercing religious
:|belief; and for that reason, he ardently opposed the government
:|mandating or compelling any sort of religious belief.
:|
:|Madison unquestionably believed that we all OWE A DUTY TO THE CREATOR
:|(his words), but that that duty cannot be strongarmed by the civil
:|sword without turning people into hypocrites.
:|
:|Madison also believed, very strongly, that religion flourishes best
:|when the government has no control of it. He expressed elation in
:|several of his letters in the 1820's that religious groups were doing
:|so well without an establishment.
:|
:|Allison and his atheist friends are really crazy for trying to make
:|Madison their hero: Madison stated very clearly that RELIGION IS
:|NECESSARY, but religious establishments are not (Notes, 1784); Madison
:|believed clearly that we all have a religious duty towards God.
:|

My Reply will be found in the newly posted article
Christian Orthodoxy And The Founders
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/orthodox.htm

:|Allison and his atheist friends dodge Madison like the plague when
:|Madison insists: "the belief in a God All Powerful wise & good, is so
:|essential to the moral order of the World & to the happiness of man,
:|that arguments which enforce it cannot be drawn from too many sources"
:|(to F. Beasley 11/20/1825)

My Reply will be found in the newly posted article
Christian Orthodoxy And The Founders
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/orthodox.htm

:|
:|You see, with all of Allison's dodging and weaving, reposting and
:|cut-and-pasting... which will surely be his easily predictable
:|response to this post... Allison has never been able to undo the fact
:|that Madison himself was clearly a Christian as evidenced by his life
:|at Princeton. Allison has never been able to show that when Madison
:|satisfied the orthodoxy requirements of both ENTRANCE and GRADUATION
:|from Princeton, that Madison was hoodwinking Dr. Witherspoon for the
:|four years he was there. Allison has never been able to show that when
:|Madison told his friend that a theological education was to be
:|pursued, that he was really kidding. Allison has never been able to
:|show any evidence that Madison's concern for "having his name enrolled
:|in the annals of Heaven" while at seminary was anything but sincere.

My Reply will be found in the newly posted article
Christian Orthodoxy And The Founders
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/orthodox.htm

:|
:|Allison will make silly arguments along the lines of saying that
:|Madison only went to Princeton for the sake of his physical health.

My Reply will be found in the newly posted article
Christian Orthodoxy And The Founders
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/orthodox.htm

:|
:|What can Allison show? He can show that Madison was rather clear in
:|not wanting the government to have any ecclesiastical power. He can
:|show that Madison felt that most of the abuses of the middle ages
:|pertained to religious establishments. He can show that Madison was
:|very very critical of those who wanted religious establishements in
:|Virginia and the U.S.

My Reply will be found in the newly posted article
Christian Orthodoxy And The Founders
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/orthodox.htm

My Reply will be found in the newly posted article
Christian Orthodoxy And The Founders
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/orthodox.htm

:|
:|Allison cannot show, however, that Madison didn't have a personal
:|disdain for atheism and non-religion. He did. It's a fact. He even
:|doubted the possibility of true atheism (see Madison to Jasper Adams
:|http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/jasper.htm).

:|James Madison was a great Christian man who took the principles of the
:|Reformation and applied them to Civil Government.
:|
:|This is all well articulated by Dr. Jim Smylie's excellent article in
:|the Princeton University Chronicle "Madison and Witherspoon:
:|Theological Roots of American Political Thought," Vol. XXII, No. 3
:|(Spring, 1961).

My Reply will be found in the newly posted article
Christian Orthodoxy And The Founders
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/orthodox.htm

:|Ambrose Searle AKA Richard Gardiner.

Now for A.S. AKA R. G.'s rambling discourse I add this:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[as Gray Shockley said:]
(Your "opinion" is not an adequate citation.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take anything that Ambrose Searle aka Richard Gardiner types with a grain
of salt. As he has demonstrated time and time again in the past of several
years ago, the past of a year and half ago and finally quite recently,
truth and him with regards to posting are not on speaking terms.
MY EVIDENCE:
*************************
http://snurl.com/2ws8
*************************
http://snurl.com/2wsb
*************************
.

User: "ambrose searle"
Title: Re: Government churches should be constitutionally rabid	12 Nov 2003 09:45:05 AM

wrote in message news:<7f74rvohb96c5koai9gi0u07kh2ls717gu@4ax.com>...

:|Agreed. Madison, however, credited Martin Luther with being the
:|individual who "led the way" in paving the road for this distinction.
:|
:|http://personal.pitnet.net/primarysources/madisonluther.html

This link is to material as chaotic and disorganized as the material
Allison posts in newsgroups.
There is nothing on the page Allison linked that deals with my claim
above, viz., that Madison credited Luther with being the individual
who "led the way," etc.
The only thing close is a further link contained on that page in which
Allison claims that Madison never mentioned Luther
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_566845179
(which is demonstrably wrong)
In short, since Allison simply responds to claims by simply posting
links to massive, disorganized, convaluted, irrelevant, long-winded
material, that doesn't even address the assertion made, he is unworthy
of dialogue.
In short, as I rightly predicted, Allison can't answer these claims,
except by massive reruns of convaluted material in which a truly
interested reader has to plow through a haystack to find a needle.
Again, he commits the fallacy that is rightly called "fallacy ad
magnum"... the belief that you are right if you simply post more
digital material than your opponent, regardless of whether that
material addresses your opponent's claim.
Searle
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Government churches should be constitutionally rabid	17 Nov 2003 07:17:54 AM

(ambrose searle AKA richard gardiner) wrote:

Your unsubstantiated claim is noted.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ordinary or extraordinary claims require ordinary or extraordinary proof.
If you're going to claim something and especially something outlandish
you're going to need some pretty extraordinary and/or irrefutable proof to
back up such a claim. "Where's the beef?" Where's the ordinary or
extraordinary proof for their ordinary or extraordinary claims? If one is
not responding with ordinary or extraordinary, *factual* proof, then the
claim is not worth considering
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[ as Homer@nospam said]
Why is asking for "proof" considered truculence? Do you consider it
truculence for a judge to ask for evidence in a trial. Would you rather
that
people just testified that they believed in the guilt of the suspect?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[as Gray Shockley said:]
(Your "opinion" is not an adequate citation.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Luther letter etc
http://makeashorterlink.com/?P2DB32F86
http://makeashorterlink.com/?R1CB52F86
Otherwise:

(ambrose searle aka richard gardiner) wrote:

My Reply will be found in the newly posted article
Christian Orthodoxy And The Founders
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/orthodox.htm

:|Ambrose Searle AKA Richard Gardiner.

User: "Carol Lee Smith"
Title: Re: Government churches should be constitutionally rabid	12 Nov 2003 10:27:56 AM

On 12 Nov 2003, ambrose searle wrote:

There is nothing on the page Allison linked that deals with my claim
above, viz., that Madison credited Luther with being the individual
who "led the way," etc.
The only thing close is a further link contained on that page in which
Allison claims that Madison never mentioned Luther
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_566845179
(which is demonstrably wrong)

If it is demonstrably wrong, just demonstrate it with evidence.
Post citations to Madison/Luther links
here ---------------->
thank you.
.

User: "ambrose searle"
Title: Re: Government churches should be constitutionally rabid	12 Nov 2003 04:08:12 PM

Carol Lee Smith <human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message news:<Pine.OSF.3.96.1031112102700.969E-100000@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu>...

On 12 Nov 2003, ambrose searle wrote:

There is nothing on the page Allison linked that deals with my claim
above, viz., that Madison credited Luther with being the individual
who "led the way," etc.

The only thing close is a further link contained on that page in which
Allison claims that Madison never mentioned Luther
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_566845179

(which is demonstrably wrong)

If it is demonstrably wrong, just demonstrate it with evidence.

Post citations to Madison/Luther links

here ---------------->

Sure thing.
1. Allison claims (or at least implies at the link above) that Madison
never mentioned Luther...
2. Madison mentioned Luther:
http://personal.pitnet.net/primarysources/madisonluther.html
Done.
Now, Carol, of course you will find some sort of fault with this very
simple demonstration of Allison's error, because that's how you are.
You make challenges, and when they're met, you move the goalposts.
It's the last refuge of an atheist without the facts on her side.
Searle
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Government churches should be constitutionally rabid	17 Nov 2003 07:47:06 AM

(ambrose searle AKA richard gardiner) wrote:

Luther letter etc
http://makeashorterlink.com/?P2DB32F86
http://makeashorterlink.com/?R1CB52F86
Otherwise:

(ambrose searle aka richard gardiner) wrote:

My Reply will be found in the newly posted article
Christian Orthodoxy And The Founders
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/orthodox.htm

:|Ambrose Searle AKA Richard Gardiner.

User: "Carol Lee Smith"
Title: Re: Government churches should be constitutionally rabid	12 Nov 2003 10:10:54 PM

On 12 Nov 2003, ambrose searle wrote:

Carol Lee Smith <human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message news:<Pine.OSF.3.96.1031112102700.969E-100000@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu>...

If it is demonstrably wrong, just demonstrate it with evidence.
Post citations to Madison/Luther links
here ---------------->

Sure thing.
1. Allison claims (or at least implies at the link above) that Madison
never mentioned Luther...

Implies in what way?

2. Madison mentioned Luther:
http://personal.pitnet.net/primarysources/madisonluther.html
Done.

I would like to see the original or else I would like to see a link which
is not of your own manufacture.
From your record here, I haven't found a good reason to trust any writings
for which you are responsible.

Now, Carol, of course you will find some sort of fault with this very
simple demonstration of Allison's error, because that's how you are.
You make challenges, and when they're met, you move the goalposts.

I am moving the goalpost. I am moving it to a place where you provide a
link which is not something you have designed.
Scan in a page and post that.

It's the last refuge of an atheist without the facts on her side.

I would want the same proof even if I was Mormon or Pagan.
.

User: "ambrose searle"
Title: Re: Government churches should be constitutionally rabid	13 Nov 2003 04:53:51 AM

Carol Lee Smith <human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message news:<Pine.OSF.3.96.1031112220812.10332G-100000@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu>...

On 12 Nov 2003, ambrose searle wrote:

Carol Lee Smith <human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message news:<Pine.OSF.3.96.1031112102700.969E-100000@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu>...

If it is demonstrably wrong, just demonstrate it with evidence.

Post citations to Madison/Luther links

here ---------------->

Sure thing.

1. Allison claims (or at least implies at the link above) that Madison
never mentioned Luther...

Implies in what way?

2. Madison mentioned Luther:
http://personal.pitnet.net/primarysources/madisonluther.html

Done.

I would like to see the original or else I would like to see a link which
is not of your own manufacture.

LOL. How's Allison's page for a piece of "my manufacture"?--
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/ref4.htm

I am moving the goalpost. I am moving it to a place where you provide a
link which is not something you have designed.

Here's your guru's site.... he is infallible. LOL:
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/ref4.htm
Searle
.

User: "Carol Lee Smith"
Title: Re: Government churches should be constitutionally rabid	13 Nov 2003 08:29:12 AM

On 13 Nov 2003, ambrose searle wrote:

Carol Lee Smith <human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message news:<Pine.OSF.3.96.1031112220812.10332G-100000@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu>...

On 12 Nov 2003, ambrose searle wrote:

Carol Lee Smith <human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message news:<Pine.OSF.3.96.1031112102700.969E-100000@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu>...

If it is demonstrably wrong, just demonstrate it with evidence.
Post citations to Madison/Luther links
here ---------------->

Sure thing.
1. Allison claims (or at least implies at the link above) that Madison
never mentioned Luther...

Implies in what way?

2. Madison mentioned Luther:
http://personal.pitnet.net/primarysources/madisonluther.html
Done.

I would like to see the original or else I would like to see a link which
is not of your own manufacture.

LOL. How's Allison's page for a piece of "my manufacture"?--
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/ref4.htm

Thanks for that one. Curious you didn't offer it in the first place.

I am moving the goalpost. I am moving it to a place where you provide a
link which is not something you have designed.

Here's your guru's site.... he is infallible. LOL:
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/ref4.htm

Thanks for that one. Curious you didn't offer it in the first place.

Now what was it you were thinking this proves for you?
.

User: "ambrose searle"
Title: Re: Government churches should be constitutionally rabid	13 Nov 2003 03:08:11 PM

Carol Lee Smith <human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message news:<Pine.OSF.3.96.1031113082704.21089A-100000@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu>...

On 13 Nov 2003, ambrose searle wrote:

Carol Lee Smith <human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message news:<Pine.OSF.3.96.1031112220812.10332G-100000@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu>...

On 12 Nov 2003, ambrose searle wrote:

Carol Lee Smith <human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message news:<Pine.OSF.3.96.1031112102700.969E-100000@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu>...

If it is demonstrably wrong, just demonstrate it with evidence.

Post citations to Madison/Luther links

here ---------------->

Sure thing.

1. Allison claims (or at least implies at the link above) that Madison
never mentioned Luther...

Implies in what way?

2. Madison mentioned Luther:
http://personal.pitnet.net/primarysources/madisonluther.html

Done.

I would like to see the original or else I would like to see a link which
is not of your own manufacture.

LOL. How's Allison's page for a piece of "my manufacture"?--

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/ref4.htm

Thanks for that one. Curious you didn't offer it in the first place.

I am moving the goalpost. I am moving it to a place where you provide a
link which is not something you have designed.

Here's your guru's site.... he is infallible. LOL:
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/ref4.htm

Thanks for that one. Curious you didn't offer it in the first place.

Now what was it you were thinking this proves for you?

It's all part of the thread. I can hold your hand for you, but I can't
do the thinking for you as well.
You challenged me to post a link that shows Madison invoked Luther as
the one who led the way in distinguishing between church and state.
This link does it: http://members.tripod.com/~candst/ref4.htm
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Government churches should be constitutionally rabid	19 Nov 2003 11:34:13 AM

(ambrose searle aka richard gardiner) wrote:

:|Carol Lee Smith <human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message news:<Pine.OSF.3.96.1031113082704.21089A-100000@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu>...
:|> On 13 Nov 2003, ambrose searle wrote:
:|>
:|> > Carol Lee Smith <human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message news:<Pine.OSF.3.96.1031112220812.10332G-100000@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu>...
:|> > > On 12 Nov 2003, ambrose searle wrote:
:|>
:|> > > > Carol Lee Smith <human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message news:<Pine.OSF.3.96.1031112102700.969E-100000@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu>...
:|>
:|> > > > > If it is demonstrably wrong, just demonstrate it with evidence.
:|>
:|> > > > > Post citations to Madison/Luther links
:|>
:|> > > > > here ---------------->
:|>
:|> > > > Sure thing.
:|>
:|> > > > 1. Allison claims (or at least implies at the link above) that Madison
:|> > > > never mentioned Luther...
:|>
:|> > > Implies in what way?
:|>
:|> > > > 2. Madison mentioned Luther:
:|> > > > http://personal.pitnet.net/primarysources/madisonluther.html
:|>
:|> > > > Done.
:|>
:|> > > I would like to see the original or else I would like to see a link which
:|> > > is not of your own manufacture.
:|>
:|> > LOL. How's Allison's page for a piece of "my manufacture"?--
:|>
:|> > http://members.tripod.com/~candst/ref4.htm
:|>
:|> Thanks for that one. Curious you didn't offer it in the first place.
:|>
:|> > > > Now, Carol, of course you will find some sort of fault with this very
:|> > > > simple demonstration of Allison's error, because that's how you are.
:|> > > > You make challenges, and when they're met, you move the goalposts.
:|>
:|> > > I am moving the goalpost. I am moving it to a place where you provide a
:|> > > link which is not something you have designed.
:|>
:|> > Here's your guru's site.... he is infallible. LOL:
:|> > http://members.tripod.com/~candst/ref4.htm
:|>
:|> Thanks for that one. Curious you didn't offer it in the first place.
:|>
:|> Now what was it you were thinking this proves for you?
:|
:|It's all part of the thread. I can hold your hand for you, but I can't
:|do the thinking for you as well.
:|
:|You challenged me to post a link that shows Madison invoked Luther as
:|the one who led the way in distinguishing between church and state.
:|
:|This link does it: http://members.tripod.com/~candst/ref4.htm

This one is far better:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=387669cf.12171966%40news.exis.net&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain
My Reply will be found in the newly posted article
Christian Orthodoxy And The Founders
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/orthodox.htm

:|Allison cannot show, however, that Madison didn't have a personal
:|disdain for atheism and non-religion. He did. It's a fact. He even
:|doubted the possibility of true atheism (see Madison to Jasper Adams
:|http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/jasper.htm).

For context purposes:
*The Jasper Adams Saga
o Introduction
o Jasper Adams Sermon: Relation of Christianity to Civil
Government, First Edition
http://candst.tripod.com/jasp1.htm
o Jasper Adams Sermon, First Edition
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/jasp1.htm
o The letters to and from Jasper Adams.
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/jaspltrs.htm
o Rebuttal to Jasper Adams Sermon, Immunity of Religion
http://candst.tripod.com/jasprebut.htm
o Jasper Adams Sermon: Second Edition
http://candst.tripod.com/jasp2.htm
**************************
Now for Ambrose Searle AKA Richard Gardiner's rambling discourse I add
this:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[as Gray Shockley said:]
(Your "opinion" is not an adequate citation.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Dave Thompson" said to another but it can be applied to Ambrose Searle
AKA Richard Gardiner as well
Ummmm, you are a historical troll that has been posting this dreck for a
while now. It doesn't matter if you stopped for a while or not. None of
your posts are new, they're just the same thing you've posted before and
have been shown to be baseless. You obviously don't like it when you've
been caught right in the beginning. I'm sure it won't stop you but at least
it serves notice to others that aren't familiar with you who they are
dealing with.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take anything that Ambrose Searle aka Richard Gardiner types with a grain
of salt. As he has demonstrated time and time again in the past of several
years ago, the past of a year and half ago and finally quite recently,
truth and him with regards to posting are not on speaking terms.
MY EVIDENCE:
*************************
Gardiner AKA Searle's church state posting history covering 3-99 to 902,
5/02 - 7/02 and this current year
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N16F22596
http://snurl.com/2ws8
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q54F21596 (up to date as of 11/18/03)
*************************
http://makeashorterlink.com/?I2AF32596
http://snurl.com/2wsb
*************************
.

User: "ambrose searle"
Title: Re: Government churches should be constitutionally rabid	19 Nov 2003 10:30:07 PM

wrote in message news:<abanrvcf3rui16d0r01e6gorols0ih3jm2@4ax.com>...

ambrosesearle@yahoo.com (ambrose searle aka richard gardiner) wrote:

:|
:|You challenged me to post a link that shows Madison invoked Luther as
:|the one who led the way in distinguishing between church and state.
:|
:|This link does it: http://members.tripod.com/~candst/ref4.htm

This one is far better:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=387669cf.12171966%40news.exis.net&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain

My Reply will be found in the newly posted article
Christian Orthodoxy And The Founders
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/orthodox.htm

A "reply" that has been thoroughly answered at
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=fe9a0c54.0311172019.274b6fb5%40posting.google.com
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Government churches should be constitutionally rabid	21 Nov 2003 09:29:12 AM

PART I
[I said ]

[ ambrose searle aka richard gardiner ] said

:|A "reply" that has been thoroughly answered at
:|
:|http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=fe9a0c54.0311172019.274b6fb5%40posting.google.com

[ my reply]
Now in your wildest dreams.
Your standard ploy here is to try and attack the source, be it a web site
or the one posting or in some cases even a scholar.
That is pretty standard with you, you seem to want the world to believe
that only you know the "truth," and anyone who disagrees with your position
has got to have it wrong no matter who they are or how qualified they are.
You might sell that to members of the choir, but you will not fool most
people who may even bother to read any of the exchanges between us.
Two Items, one short, one quite long.
Letr any readers who may venrute to studying decide.
(1)
http://makeashorterlink.com/?C10D12A96
From:

Subject: Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a Christian
Newsgroups: alt.bible, alt.christnet.philosophy, alt.christnet.theology,
alt.religion.christian, alt.atheism
Date: 2002-06-04 04:35:59 PST
(2)
[part i]
CHRISTIAN ORTHODOXY AND THE FOUNDERS
Just some of the cited and excerpted sources used in this over all article
There are duplications in some instances, in most I tried to eliminate the
duplications.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Table compiled by Ian Dorion
actual writings of a variety of men of the founding era as well as
founders, franers, etc.
U S Constitution
Debates on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution in the
Convention Held at Philadelphia in 1787, Jonathan Elliot, Vol. V.
Philadelphia: J. B. Lippincott Company (1888) p 128-131.
The Complete Bill of Rights, The Drafts, Debates, Sources, and
Origins, Edited by Neil H. Cogan. Oxford University Press (1997) p 72.
Notes of the Debates in the Federal Convention of 1787, Reported by
James Madison, Bicentennial Edition. With an introduction by Adrienne Koch.
W. W. Morton & Company New York * London, Reissued as a Norton paperback
1987, original introduction copyright 1966, Ohio University Press, pp 33.
See footnotes page 270 "The Constitution's Forgotten Religion
Clause: Reflections on the Article VI Religious Test Ban" by Daniel L.
Dreisbach, Journal Of Church and State , Volume 38 Spring 1996 Number 2
Bicentennial Edition, Notes of the Debates in the Federal
Convention of 1787, Reported by James Madison, With an introduction by
Adrienne Koch. W. W. Morton & Company New York * London, Reissued as a
Norton paperback 1987, original introduction copyright 1966, Ohio
University Press, pp 561.
Excerpt from The federalist Society For Law and Public Policy
Studies. Charitable Choice, Remarks of Professor Marci Hamilton
The First Freedoms, Church and State in America to the Passage of
the First Amendment, by Thomas Curry, page 220.
The Bill Of Rights: A Documentary History, Vol. II, Bernard
Schwartz, Chelsea House Publishers, in association with McGraw Hill Book
Company, N.Y. Toronto, London, Sydney (1971) pp 1159.
*The Writings of James Madison, Vol. 5, p. 424.
Excerpts from "The Virginia Chronicle," by John Leland, 1790. The
Writings of John Leland, Edited by L.F. Greene, Arno Press & The New York
Times N Y (1969) pp.91-124) Originally published as: The Writings Of The
Late Elder John Leland Including Some Events In His Life, Written By
Himself, With Additional Sketches &c. By Miss L.F. Greene, Lanesboro, Mass.
New York Printed By G.W. Wood, 29 Gold Street, 1845.
1791
Excerpts from "The Rights of Conscience Inalienable; and Therefore
Religious Opinions Not Cognizable by Law," by John Leland, 1790. The
Writings of John Leland, Edited by L.F. Greene, Arno Press & The New York
Times N Y (1969) pp.175-192) Originally published as: The Writings Of The
Late Elder John Leland Including Some Events In His Life, Written By
Himself, With Additional Sketches &c. By Miss L.F. Greene, Lanesboro, Mass.
New York Printed By G.W. Wood, 29 Gold Street, 1845.
1794
Excerpts from The Yankee Spy, by Jack Nips ( John Leland), 1794.
The Writings of John Leland, Edited by L.F. Greene, Arno Press & The New
York Times N Y (1969) pp.215-229) Originally published as: The Writings Of
The Late Elder John Leland Including Some Events In His Life, Written By
Himself, With Additional Sketches &c. By Miss L.F. Greene, Lanesboro, Mass.
New York Printed By G.W. Wood, 29 Gold Street, 1845.
April 14, 1800
The Gazette of the United States, April 14, 1800.Jan 1, 1800 TO
Dec.31, 1800 MFILM N.S. 10953 AP2.05
January 1833
Commentaries on The Constitution of The United States, by Supreme
Court Justice Joseph Story, Vol III, (1833) pg 705.
For the debate over religious tests at the constitutional and
ratifying conventions, see Daniel Dreisbach, "The Constitution's Forgotten
Religion Clause: Reflections on the Article VI Religious Test Ban," Journal
Of Church and State 38 (Spring 1996): 261-96;
Morton Borden, Jews, Turks, and Infidels (Chapel Hill, N.C.:
University of North Carolina Press, 1984);
John M. Murrin, "Religion and Politics in America from the First
Settlements to the Civil War," in Religion and American Politics: From the
Colonial Period to the 1980s, ed. Mark A. Noll (New York: Oxford University
Press, 1990), 19-43;
Jackson Turner Main, The Antifederalists: Critics of the
Constitution, 1781-1788 (Chapel Hill, N.C.: University of North Carolina
Press, 1961);
James H. Smyhe, "Protestant Clergy, the First Amendment, and
Beginnings of a Constitutional Debate, 1781-1791," in The Religion of the
Republic, ed. Elwyn A. Smith (Philadelphia, Penn.: Fortress Press, 1971),
116-53;
Edwin Gaustad, "Religious Tests, Constitutions, and a 'Christian
Nation'," in Religion in a Revolutionary Age, eds. Ronald Hoffman and Peter
J. Albert (Charlottesville, Va.: University Press of Virginia, 1994),
218-35.
On religion and the campaign of 1800, see Mark A. Noll, One Nation
Under God? (New York: Harper and Row, 1988), 74-89;
Charles F. O'Brien, "The Religious Issue in the Presidential
Campaign of 1800,"Essex Institute Historical Collections 107 (January
1971): 82-93;
Constance B. Schulz, "`Of Bigotry in Politics and Religion':
Jefferson's Religion, the Federalist Press, and the Syllabus," The Virginia
Magazine of Biography and History 91 (January 1983): 73-91;
Charles O. Lerche, Jr., "Jefferson and the Election of 1800: A Case
Study in the Political Smear," William and Mary Quarterly 5 (October 1948):
467-91;
Fred C. Luebke, "The Origins of Thomas Jefferson's
Anti-Clericalism," Church History 32 (September 1963): 344-56; and
L. H. Butterfeld, "Elder John Leland, Jeffersonian Itinerant,"
Proceedings of the American Antiquarian Society 62 (October 1952): 214-29.
See O'Brien, "The Religious Issue in the Presidential Campaign of
1800."
John Murrin, "Religion and Politics in America from the First
Settlements to the Civil War," inReligion and American Politics, ed. Noll,
19-43.
Schulz. "Of Bigotry in Politics and Religion."
"God-And a Religious President . . . Or Jefferson and No God":
Campaigning for a Voter-Imposed Religious Test in 1800, Frank Lambert, pp
770-71 Journal Of Church and State , Volume 39 Autumn 1997 Number 4
Part III
Gales, Joseph, Sr. Debates and Proceedings of the Congress of the
United States (Washington , 1834) I, 1106-1108
Church and State in the United States, Anson Phelps Stokes, D.D.,
L.L.D, Harper & Bros, N Y (1950) Vol. I, p. 346
1790
"The Rights of Conscience Inalienable; and Therefore Religious
Opinions Not Cognizable by Law," by John Leland, 1790. The Writings of John
Leland, Edited by L.F. Greene, Arno Press & The New York Times N Y (1969)
pp.175-192) Originally published as: the Writings of the Late Elder John
Leland Including Some Events in His Life, Written by Himself, with
Additional Sketches &C. By Miss L.f. Greene, Lanesboro, Mass. New York
Printed By G.W. Wood, 29 Gold Street, 1845.
March 5, 1798 General Aurora Advertiser, March 5, 1798. MFILM N.S.
12516 HF5862.A9
May 9, 1798 General Aurora Advertiser, May, 9, 1798, Philadelphia,
Penna. MFILM N.S. 12516 HF5862.A9 1800
Excerpts from "A Solemn Address to Christians & Patriots, Upon The
Approaching Election of a President of the United States," Political
Sermons of the American Founding Era, 1730-1805, Edited by Ellis Sandoz,
Liberty press, pp. 1481-1528.
The Gazette of the United States, April 14, 1800.Jan 1, 1800 TO
Dec.31, 1800 MFILM N.S. 10953 AP2.05
General Aurora Advertiser, July 31, 1800, Jan. 1, 1800 -Dec. 31,
1800 MFILM N.S. 12516 HF582.A9
Excerpt from letter from Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush,
September 23, 1800.The Works of Thomas Jefferson In Twelve Volumes, Federal
edition. Collected and edited by Paul Leicester Ford. Volume X, G. P.
Putnam's Sons, The Knickerbocker Press. (1905) pp 148-49.
October 6, 1800
Excerpt from letter from Benjamin Rush to Jefferson, October 6,
1800. RC (DLC); endorsed by TJ as received 16 Oct. [1800] and so recorded
in SJL. pp 321
The Papers of Thomas Jefferson, 2nd series, Jefferson's Extracts
from the Gospels, "The Philosophy of Jesus" and "The Life and Morals of
Jesus." Dickinson W. Adams, Editor, Princeton University Press, Princeton,
N J, (1983) pp 405-06.
Letter to Moses Robinson from Jefferson, March 23, 1801. PrC (DLC)
pp 324 EXTRACTS The Papers of Thomas Jefferson, 2nd series, Jefferson's
Extracts from the Gospels, "The Philosophy of Jesus" and "The Life and
Morals of Jesus." Dickinson W. Adams, Editor, Princeton University Press,
Princeton, N J, (1983) pp 405-06.
original source for quote -Thomas Jefferson to Postmaster-General
Gideon Granger, May 3, 1801, Works: Ford IX, 249,- quote appearing in The
Life of John Marshall, By Albert J Beveridge Vol. III, page 15, published
1917.
"Sowing Useful Truths and principles": The Danbury Baptists, Thomas
Jefferson and the "Wall of Separation", By Daniel L. Dreisbach, Journal Of
Church and State , Volume 39, Summer 1997, Number 3, pp 491.
James Madison to Thomas Jefferson, Washington, Oct. 1, 1803, Notes
for annual message, Oct. 17, 1803: alterations and additions, etc.[1.], The
Republic of Letters, the Correspondence between Thomas Jefferson and James
Madison, 1776- 1826, Edited by James Morton Smith, Vol. II, 1790 -1804, W.
W. Norton & Company, New York, London, (1995) pp 1297-98.
January 23, 1808
American State Papers Bearing on Sunday Legislation, compiled and
annotated William Addison Blakely, Revised Edition Edited by Willard Allen
Colcord. The Religious Liberty Association (1911) pages 174-175) (Original
publication of letter, Works of Thomas Jefferson, ed. Ford. Vol. 5, Pages
236-37).
Letter to Baptist Churches in North Carolina, June 3, 1811. Letters
And Other Writin s of James Madison Fourth President Of The United States
In Four Volumes Published By the Order Of Congress, Vol..II, J. B.
Lippincott & Co., Philadelphia, (1865) pp 511-512.
"A discourse in two parts: delivered July 23, 1812, on the public
fast, in the chapel of Yale College by Timothy Dwight, D.D. L.L.D.,
President of that Seminary; Published at the request of the students, and
others;" New Haven, Published by Howe and Deforest; Sold also by A.T.
Goodrich and Co. No, 124, Broadway, New-York; Printed by J.Seymour, 49,
John-street, New-York, p. 40.
A Discourse in Two Parts, Reverend Timothy Dwight, 2nd ed. (Boston:
Flagg & Gould, 1813), p 24. The Rhetoric and Reality of the "Christian
Nation" Maxim in American Law, 1810-1920, By Steven Keith Green, an
unpublished Ph. D. Dissertation submitted to the Faculity of the University
of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (1997) p 1.
1846
Source of Information U.S. Attorney General Jeremiah S. Black,
"Religious liberty, An Address to the Phrenakosmian Society of Pennsylvania
College, Delivered at the Annual Commencement, 17 September 1856," in
Essays and Speeches of Jeremiah S. Black (New York: D Appleton, 1885), 53
"Sowing Useful Truths and principles": The Danbury Baptists, Thomas
Jefferson and the "Wall of Separation", By Daniel L. Dreisbach, Journal Of
Church and State, Volume 39, Summer 1997, Number 3, pp 492.
1871
Miscellaneous Writings of Joseph P. Bradley (1901), 357-359.
http://www.vwc.edu/academic_life/csrf/articles/christian_amendment.htm
National Liberal Platform Adopted at Cincinnati, September 14,
1879. American State Papers Bearing On Sunday Legislation, Revised and
Enlarged Edition, Compiled and Annotated by William Addison Blakely,
Revised Edition Edited by Willard Allen Colcord, The Religious Liberty
Association, Washington D.C. 1911, pp 170.
1888
Dr.. Philip Schaff Church and State in the United States (1888), p.
11. American State Papers on Freedom in Religion. 4th Revised Edition.
Published in 1949 for The Religious Liberty Association, Washington, D.C.
First Edition Compiled by William Addison Blakely, of the Chicago Bar.
(1890) under the Title American State Papers Bearing on Sunday Legislation.
p. 523. 1888
Schaff, Philip, Church and State in the United States, Papers of
the American Historical Society, 1888, p. 137. 1888
Church and State in the United States: Or, the American Idea of
Religious Liberty and its Practical Effects, with Official Documents / by
Philip Schaff. G. P. Putnam's Sons,New York & London, 1888, pp. 39-40
[REPRINT] Church and State in the United States or The American Idea of
Religious Liberty and It's Practical Effects, Philip Schaff, Arno Press,
New York Times Company, New York: (1972) pp. 39-40. 1888
Some of The Supreme Court's Decisions in Church and State:
Most of these cases are not Establishment Clause cases, a couple are.
However, they do show that Everson v Board of Education in 1947 wasn't the
first time the United States Supreme Court dealt with church and state, as
some people claim.
* Terrett v. Tylor (1815) First case to reach the USSC in the realm of
Church and State
* Vidal v Girard's Executors. (1844) The next case decided by the
United States Supreme Court in which it considered the relationship between
religion and the state.
* Permoli v. Municipality of New Orleans (1845)
* Watson v. Jones (1872)
* Reynolds v. U S (1878)
* Davis v. Beason (1890)
* Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-Day Saints v. U S (1890)
* Church of the Holy Trinity v. U S (1892)
* Bradford v. Roberts (1890) This was a case directly involving the 1st
Amendment, Establishment Clause.
* Jacobson v. Mass. (1905)
* Quick Bear v. Lapp (1908)
* Arver v. U S (1918) Selective Service case
* Meyer v. Nebraska (1923)
* Cochran v. La. State Board of Education (1930)
* U S v. Macintosh (1931)
* Haminto v. Regents of the U of California (1934)
* Lovell v Griffin (1938)
* Cantwell v. Conn. (1940) First case that applied the Bill of Rights
against the states. This was a Free Exercise case
* Minersville School District v. Gobitis (1940)
* Cox v. New Hampshire (1941)
* Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire (1942)
* Jones v. Opelika (1942)
* Murdock v. Pa. (1943)
* Jones v. Opelika (2d) (1943)
* Matrin v. City of Struthers (1943)
* West Virginia State Bd of Ed v. Barnett (1943)
* Taylor v. Mississippi (1943)
* U S v. Ballard (1944)
* Prince v. Mass. (1944)
* Follett v. Town of McCormack (1944)
* In re Summers (1945)
* Girouard v. U S (1946)
* Marsh v. Alabama (1946)
* Everson v. Bd of Ed (1947) First case to define the rule of law with
regards to the establishment clause and first Establishment Clause
application against the states via Bill of Rights.
Church and State in the United States, by Anson Phelps Stokes
(1874-1958) and Leo Pfeffer. Revised one-volume edition, Harper & Row,
Publishers, (1964) pp. 104-129.
A Documentary History of Religion in America, To The Civil War,
Ed, by Edwi S. Gaustad, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. (1982) pp.
226-27
Religion & Constitutional Government in the United States, A
Historical Overview with Sources. John E. Semonche, Signet Books Carrboro,
N.C. (1985) pp 30
Religion & Constitutional Government in the United States, A
Historical Overview with Sources. John E. Semonche, Signet Books Carrboro,
N.C. (1985) pp 30
The Radicalism of the American Revolution, by Gordon S. Wood,
Alfred A. Knopf, N Y (1992) pp 330
The American Heritage, History of Making the Nation
1783-1860, American Heritage/Bonanza Books N.Y. (1987) pp 77-78
The papers of James Madison, Volume 8, March 10, 1784- March 28,
1786. Edited by Robert A. Rutland, William M.E. Rachal. The University of
Chicago Press, (1973) pp 295-298
Republics Ancient and Modern, Inventions of Prudence: Constituting
the American Regime, By Paul A. Rahe, Volume III, The University of north
carolina Press, Chapel Hill & London (1994) pp 53-54
Religion & Constitutional Government in the United States, A
Historical Overview with Sources. John E. Semonche, Signet Books Carrboro,
N.C. (1985) pp 30
Britannica:
The American Heritage, History of Making the Nation 1783-1860,
American Heritage/Bonanza Books N.Y. (1987) pp 77-78
Allen Jayne. Jefferson's Declaration of Independence: Origins,
Philosophy, and Theology. Lexington: University Press of Kentucky. 1998.
Pp. xiii, 245. The American Historical Review Vol. 104 # 3 June 1999.
http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/ahr/104.3/br_36.html
The Rise of American Civilization," by Charles A. and Mary R.
Beard. (Vol. I., p. 449.)
Faith of Our Fathers, Religion and the New Nation. Edwin S.
Gaustad, Harper & Row, (1987) pp 77
JA to John Quincy Adams, November 3, 1815; Adams Papers, reel 122
On January 3, 1817, John Quincy Adams wrote his father that all his "hopes
of a future life" were "founded upon the Gospel of Christ." Nor, he added,
would he "cavil or quibble away" was seemed to him clear assertions by
Jesus that he was God."You see my orthodoxy grows upon me." Adrienne Koch
and William Peden, eds., The Selected Writings of John and John Quincy
Adams (New York, 1946), 291-92
Harold O. J. Brown, God and Politics, Four Views on the
Reformation of Civil Government, Gary Scott Smith, ed. Presbyterian and
Reformed Publishing, 1989. p. 132.
Barry Schwartz, George Washington: The Making of an American
Symbol, New York: The Free Press, 1987, pp. 174-175.)
Entry by Thomas Jefferson in his Anas. February 1, 1800, The
Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Selected and Edited by Saul K. Padover , The
Easton press. (1967) pp 217-218)
William Meade, Old Churches, Ministers and Families of Virginia, 2
vols.; Philadelphia, 1857, I, 191). (Paul F. Boller, George Washington &
Religion, Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, p. 26.)
William Lee Miller, "The Ghost of freedoms Past," in The Washington
Post National Weekly Edition (13 October 1886), p. 23. ]
Leo Pfeffer, Church, State, and Freedom, Beacon Press, 1967. P.
254, (revised edition).
Albert J. Menendez, No Religious Test: The Story of Our
Constitution's Forgotten Article, Americans United for Separation of Church
& State, 1987. p. 11.
Garry Wills, Under God: Religion and American Politics, Simon and
Schuster, 1990. p. 383.
Robert Rutland, "The Courage to Doubt in a Secular Republic," in
James Madison on Religious Liberty, Prometheus Books, 1985. p. 209
Michael Novak, ibid., p. 300.
North, Political Polytheism, op. cit., pp. 681-685. A
non-Reconstructionist advocate of the "Christian Nation" doctrine, Harold
O.J. Brown, agrees with North. "America made a mistake in the year 1787.
Officially, government ...broke with Christianity," God and Politics, Four
Views on the Reformation of Civil Government, Gary Scott Smith, ed.
Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing, 1989. p. 132.
North, ibid., p. 568.
Frederick Clarkson, "Eternal Hostility, The Struggle Between
Theoracy and Democracy." Common Courage Press, Monroe, Maine (1997) 83-86
Robert Rutland, "The Courage to Doubt in a Secular Republic," in
James Madison on Religious Liberty, Prometheus Books, 1985. p. 208 [209].
Alan Dershowitz, America Declares Independence,(2003) pp. 65-66,
68
Alan M. Dershowitz, "Justice O'Connor's Second Indiscretion," New
York Times, April 2, 1989.
People v. Ruggles (1811): "we are a Christian people." Justice
Brewer in Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States (1892):'This is a
Christian nation." Cf. Mark DeWolfe Howe, The Carden and the Wilderness:
Religion and Government in American Constitutional History (University of
Chicago, 1965), pp. 14, 29.
See Lincoln's order for Sabbath observance by the military, out of
"deference to the best sentiment of a Christian people," in Abraham
Lincoln: Speeches and Writings, 18591865, edited by Don F. Fehrenbacher
(Library of America, 1989), p. 382. Also the resolution of slavery, as
disqualifying the South from entry "into the family of christian and
civilized nations" (ibid., p. 445-and cf. pp. 223, 433, 597, 627).
John Henry Newman, "English Catholic Literature," in The Idea of a
University (Oxford, 1976), p. 255.
Ibid., p. 259.
Acton's famous axiom was formulated in a letter of 1887 to Mandell
Creighton, a historian of the papacy. See Selected Writings of Lord Acton,
edited by J. Rufus Fears (Liberty Classics, 1985), vol. 2, p. 383.
'Cf. Miriam Davidson, Convictions of the Heart: Jim Corbett and
the Sanctuary Movement (University of Arizona, 1988), pp. 115-17; Robert
Tomsho, The American Sanctuary Movement (Texas Monthly Press, 1987), pp.
159-67, 204-5.
Garry Wills, Under God: Religion and American Politics, Simon and
Schuster, 1990. pp. 381-385. 383
As quoted by Leo Pfeffer, "The Establishment Clause: The
Never-Ending Conflict," in Ronald C. White and Albright G. Zimmerman, An
Unsettled Arena: Religion and the Bill of Rights, Grand Rapids, Michigan:
William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1990, p. 72.)
.

User: "ambrose searle"
Title: Re: Government churches should be constitutionally rabid	21 Nov 2003 10:11:57 PM

wrote in message news:<4qbsrvc2mgvlp93pvmsu76s6iosufd9prn@4ax.com>...

PART I

[I said ]

:|> This one is far better:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=387669cf.12171966%40news.exis.net&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain

[ ambrose searle aka richard gardiner ] said

:|A "reply" that has been thoroughly answered at
:|
:|http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=fe9a0c54.0311172019.274b6fb5%40posting.google.com

[ my reply]
Now in your wildest dreams.

Your standard ploy here is to try and attack the source, be it a web site
or the one posting or in some cases even a scholar.

My my my. Is little Allison pouting because someone turns his own
stock and trade against him.
Who is the loudest attacker of David Barton on the web? Hint look in
the mirror. Who has laid into James Hutson (at the LOC), D. James
Kennedy, Gary Amos, Harold Berman, Eidsmoe, Robertson, Dreisbach,
Smylie, etc., ad nauseum.
And you dare scold me for "attacking the one posting" when almost all
you've done for the last three months is obsessively go after the
identity of "Ambrose Searle," post after post after post with nothing
but "Ambrose Searle is Richard Gardiner." ROTFLMAO!

That is pretty standard with you,

No one has the imfamous reputation for ad hominems that you have.
STANDARD FARE.

you seem to want the world to believe
that only you know the "truth," and anyone who disagrees with your position
has got to have it wrong no matter who they are or how qualified they are.

People are free to check my observations about your scholars:
Dershowitz, Semonche, etc. and see if they have the ACLU associations
I claim.
If having a Ph.D. and a bunch of similar credentials is all it takes
to qualify one as an expert, then bow at the feet of D.James Kennedy
my friend: A.B., M.Div., M.Th., D.D., D.Sac.Lit., Ph.D., Litt.D.,
D.Sac.Theol., D.Humane Let.
I will hand it to Dershowitz: his is a fine trial lawyer. He played a
great role in getting O.J. off the hook; just like he sells a bill of
goods in the church/state arena.

You might sell that to members of the choir, but you will not fool most
people who may even bother to read any of the exchanges between us.

Actually I post in such a way that someone can follow my train of
thought without having to click on 40 links one after another after
another...
When most folks get to your huge cut-and-paste reposts that don't even
address the matter at hand, you are correct when you say they don't
bother to read them.
Like all the tangential cut-and-paste crap I just snipped from the
bottom of this post that is more of your fallacy ad magnum tactic
(viz., "if I cut and paste huge reams of digital material it will have
the appearance of bowling my opponent over with a mountain of
evidence.")
It ain't gonna fly jimbo.
So I redirect the inquisitive reader to this accurate assessment of
your "Christian Orthodoxy and the Founders" website:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=fe9a0c54.0311172019.274b6fb5%40posting.google.com
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Government churches should be constitutionally rabid	22 Nov 2003 11:13:05 AM

(ambrose searle aka richard gardiner) wrote:

:|Who is the loudest attacker of David Barton on the web? Hint look in
:|the mirror. Who has laid into James Hutson (at the LOC), D. James
:|Kennedy, Gary Amos, Harold Berman, Eidsmoe, Robertson, Dreisbach,
:|Smylie, etc., ad nauseum.

Ho hum:
It really bugs the hell out of you that people expose Barton and not
everyone embraced the LOC religion propaganda.
Are the above named people your heroes? Do they represent your viewpoints?
If so, that shows how much a liar you really are since you denied that
viewpoint for 18 approx 18 months before (3/99-9/00)
(1) Actually I don't offhand know who Harold Berman is.
(2) I frequently cite Dreisbach. At least for awhile, though he is an
accommodationist, he was quite balanced in much of his early writings. He
seems to have gotten away from the in some of his more recent writings.
But I have most of his published works articles and books. S. Batte and
Dreisbach went to UVA law school together, though he was a year ahead of
her as I recall.
Gary Amos, a Virginia Beach Attorney and your co-author. Helped begin Pat
Robertson's Regent U with help in setting up the School of Government and
Law school. He may still be an instructor there. He has close ties with the
truly extreme Rushdooney's Reconstructionist movement. You also got badly
burnt when you cited some of his works and had it backfire in the past by
Mike Curtis Jeff Sinclair and myself.
Not just anyone on Usenet would mention Gary Amos or have any knowledge of
him.
Richard Gardiner, Gary Amos,. Results 1 - 50 of about 136.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?B27352D96
jalison@pilot.infi.net Gary Amos,. Results 1 - 12 of about 29.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?J5A325D96
buckeye@exis.net, Gary Amos,. Results 1 - 20 of about 63.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?T2D351D96
Ambrose Searle, Gary Amos,. Results 1 - 11 of about 24.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?T1E325D96
Mike Curtis, Gary Amos,. Results 1 - 50 of about 2,530
http://makeashorterlink.com/?M10421D96
D. James Kennedy, Gary Amos, Eidsmoe, Robertson,
are well known. Tier reputation proceeds them, nothing more need be said
about them and I don't off hand know who Smylie is.
DAVID BARTON:
The Barton Chronicles
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/bartchro.htm
Subject: L.O.C. EXHIBIT (update)
http://snurl.com/2sjj
Kindly note some of what is contained in the above URL
LIBRARY OF CONGRESS, Copyright William Edelen
http://www.evolvefish.com/freewrite/edelin-lib-congrs.html
and
Tearing Down Jefferson's Oath, John Patrick Michael Murphy
Copyright 1998
http://www.evolvefish.com/freewrite/murphy-jeffersons-oath.html
They are short articles but gives you an alternative viewpoint, not that I
think you really want one.
First Amendment Scholars Challenge Library of Congress
Claims on Jefferson Letter Regarding "Wall"
http://www.infidels.org/wire/stories/loc_jeffWall.html
(The above URL also has the letter the scholars wrote to the LOC, and the
list of scholars who signed off on it---Buckeye)
==========================
REGARDING THE LOC EXHIBIT:
I received this email just the other day. Kindly note their thoughts:

and one other:

:|Jim,
:|
:|The following is the exchange I just had with the Library of Congress. Can
:|you provide anything better? I want to demonstrate that atheists have been a
:|shunned and despised minority since the founding.
:|
:|Thanks, as always.
:|
:|- Mike
:|
:|**********
:|I am interested in the existence of atheism during the
:|colonial period. There is no mention of this in your exhibit, "Religion
:|and the Founding of the American Republic." Certainly atheism was on
:|people's minds, inasmuch as Jefferson was called this in the election of
:|1800.
:|
:|Can you help?
:|
:|Because atheism was a term of opprobrium in early America few people
:|would admit to professing it. It is, therefore, impossible to estimate
:|the number of atheists. Benjamin Franklin once stated that he had never
:|met an atheist in America. James Hutson
:|
:|Thank you.
:|
:|Do you have references I can cite to this effect? (I.e., that atheism was a
:|term of opprobrium?)
:|
:|No reference that I readily comes to mind. John Adams' papers are full
:|of scathing remarks about atheists.Jim Hutson

*****************************
Also note the little if anything that is contained in the following was
ever included in the LOC Exhibit.
Balance and accuracy wasn't the goal they had in mind.
Christian Orthodoxy And The Founders
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/orthodox.htm
**************************
Now for Ambrose Searle AKA Richard Gardiner's rambling discourse I add
this:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[as Gray Shockley said:]
(Your "opinion" is not an adequate citation.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Dave Thompson" said to another but it can be applied to Ambrose Searle
AKA Richard Gardiner as well
Ummmm, you are a historical troll that has been posting this dreck for a
while now. It doesn't matter if you stopped for a while or not. None of
your posts are new, they're just the same thing you've posted before and
have been shown to be baseless. You obviously don't like it when you've
been caught right in the beginning. I'm sure it won't stop you but at least
it serves notice to others that aren't familiar with you who they are
dealing with.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take anything that Ambrose Searle aka Richard Gardiner types with a grain
of salt. As he has demonstrated time and time again in the past of several
years ago, the past of a year and half ago and finally quite recently,
truth and him with regards to posting are not on speaking terms.
MY EVIDENCE:
*************************
Gardiner AKA Searle's church state posting history covering 3-99 to 902,
5/02 - 7/02 and this current year
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N16F22596
http://snurl.com/2ws8
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q54F21596 (up to date as of 11/18/03)
*************************
http://makeashorterlink.com/?I2AF32596
http://snurl.com/2wsb
*************************
.

User: "ambrose searle"
Title: Re: Government churches should be constitutionally rabid	22 Nov 2003 11:46:27 PM

wrote in message news:<t86vrvkcrtbjm1h46jd109lnmo47nqmhjl@4ax.com>...

ambrosesearle@yahoo.com (ambrose searle aka richard gardiner) wrote:

Ho hum:

It really bugs the hell out of you that people expose Barton and not
everyone embraced the LOC religion propaganda.

There you go again. That darned Library of Congress and their
right-wing fundamentalist propaganda...
Let the reader decide:
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/

Are the above named people your heroes? Do they represent your viewpoints?
If so, that shows how much a liar you really are since you denied that
viewpoint for 18 approx 18 months before (3/99-9/00)

I don't give a hoot about Barton. I think he is misguided in many
aspects. I am simply pointing out that you are being absolutely
hypocritical and continuing your typical "don't attack the messenger"
ONLY WHEN ITS YOUR MESSENGERS THAT ARE BEING ATTACKED.

(1) Actually I don't offhand know who Harold Berman is.

I believe you.
Ames Professor of Law, Harvard Law School
The leading authority on Common Law. But it makes sense that you don't
know Berman because you don't know much about that topic.

(2) I frequently cite Dreisbach. At least for awhile, though he is an
accommodationist, he was quite balanced in much of his early writings. He
seems to have gotten away from the in some of his more recent writings.

Perhaps he has come to his senses.

Gary Amos, a Virginia Beach Attorney and your co-author. Helped begin Pat
Robertson's Regent U with help in setting up the School of Government and
Law school. He may still be an instructor there. He has close ties with the
truly extreme Rushdooney's Reconstructionist movement.

Not only do you recklessly continue your "attack the messenger"
tactic, but you get it very very wrong. Amos has no sympathy for
Reconstructionism or Theonomy. Period. You don't know what you're
talking about.
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Government churches should be constitutionally rabid	25 Nov 2003 11:07:54 AM

(ambrose searle) wrote:

:|buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote in message news:<t86vrvkcrtbjm1h46jd109lnmo47nqmhjl@4ax.com>...
:|>

(ambrose searle aka richard gardiner) wrote:
:|>
:|> >:|Who is the loudest attacker of David Barton on the web? Hint look in
:|> >:|the mirror. Who has laid into James Hutson (at the LOC), D. James
:|> >:|Kennedy, Gary Amos, Harold Berman, Eidsmoe, Robertson, Dreisbach,
:|> >:|Smylie, etc., ad nauseum.
:|>
:|> Ho hum:
:|>
:|> It really bugs the hell out of you that people expose Barton and not
:|> everyone embraced the LOC religion propaganda.
:|
:|There you go again. That darned Library of Congress and their
:|right-wing fundamentalist propaganda...
:|
:|Let the reader decide:
:|
:|http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/

By all means let the reders decide

(ambrose searle aka richard gardiner) wrote:

and one other:

:|
:|> Are the above named people your heroes? Do they represent your viewpoints?
:|> If so, that shows how much a liar you really are since you denied that
:|> viewpoint for 18 approx 18 months before (3/99-9/00)
:|
:|I don't give a hoot about Barton. I think he is misguided in many
:|aspects. I am simply pointing out that you are being absolutely
:|hypocritical and continuing your typical "don't attack the messenger"
:|ONLY WHEN ITS YOUR MESSENGERS THAT ARE BEING ATTACKED.
:|
:|> (1) Actually I don't offhand know who Harold Berman is.
:|
:|I believe you.
:|
:|Ames Professor of Law, Harvard Law School
:|
:|The leading authority on Common Law. But it makes sense that you don't
:|know Berman because you don't know much about that topic.
:|
:|> (2) I frequently cite Dreisbach. At least for awhile, though he is an
:|> accommodationist, he was quite balanced in much of his early writings. He
:|> seems to have gotten away from the in some of his more recent writings.
:|
:|Perhaps he has come to his senses.
:|
:|> Gary Amos, a Virginia Beach Attorney and your co-author. Helped begin Pat
:|> Robertson's Regent U with help in setting up the School of Government and
:|> Law school. He may still be an instructor there. He has close ties with the
:|> truly extreme Rushdooney's Reconstructionist movement.
:|
:|Not only do you recklessly continue your "attack the messenger"
:|tactic, but you get it very very wrong. Amos has no sympathy for
:|Reconstructionism or Theonomy. Period. You don't know what you're
:|talking about.

User: ""
Title: Re: Government churches should be constitutionally rabid	22 Nov 2003 11:12:58 AM

(ambrose searle) wrote:
[ ambrose searle aka richard gardiner ] said

:|A "reply" that has been thoroughly answered at
:|
:|http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=fe9a0c54.0311172019.274b6fb5%40posting.google.com

[ my reply]
Now in your wildest dreams.
What follows exposes your failed impotent, lame and irrelevant attempt to
discredit:
My Reply will be found in the newly posted article
Christian Orthodoxy And The Founders
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/orthodox.htm
Let the readers decide
Two Items, one short, one quite long.
Let any readers who may venture into studying decide.
(1)
http://makeashorterlink.com/?C10D12A96
From:

User: "ambrose searle"
Title: Re: Government churches should be constitutionally rabid	22 Nov 2003 11:56:00 PM

wrote in message news:<d76vrvsudfrfsc1cihutgh9b5ant5tdfcs@4ax.com>...

ambrosesearle@yahoo.com (ambrose searle) wrote:

[ ambrose searle aka richard gardiner ] said

:|A "reply" that has been thoroughly answered at
:|
:|http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=fe9a0c54.0311172019.274b6fb5%40posting.google.com

A "reply" that has been thoroughly answered at
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=fe9a0c54.0311172019.274b6fb5%40posting.google.com
.

User: ""
Title: Re: Government churches should be constitutionally rabid	03 Dec 2003 09:52:39 AM

(ambrose searle aka richard gardiner) wrote:

:|A "reply" that has been thoroughly answered at
:|http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=fe9a0c54.0311172019.274b6fb5%40posting.google.com

Actually I am glad you are doing this, because if anyone actually compares
the above with the below, they will not be impressed with that which you
are offering.
[ my reply]
Now in your wildest dreams.
What follows exposes your failed impotent, lame and irrelevant attempt to
discredit:
My Reply will be found in the newly p