| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
21 Nov 2003 09:29:37 AM |
| Object: |
Re: Government churches should be constitutionally rabid |
PART VI
[I said ]
:|> This one is far better:
:|http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=387669cf.12171966%40news.exis.net&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain
:|>
:|> My Reply will be found in the newly posted article
:|> Christian Orthodoxy And The Founders
:|> http://members.tripod.com/~candst/orthodox.htm
:|
[ ambrose searle aka richard gardiner ] said
:|A "reply" that has been thoroughly answered at
:|
:|http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=fe9a0c54.0311172019.274b6fb5%40posting.google.com
[ my reply]
Now in your wildest dreams.
Your standard ploy here is to try and attack the source, be it a web site
or the one posting or in some cases even a scholar.
That is pretty standard with you, you seem to want the world to believe
that only you know the "truth," and anyone who disagrees with your position
has got to have it wrong no matter who they are or how qualified they are.
You might sell that to members of the choir, but you will not fool most
people who may even bother to read any of the exchanges between us.
Two Items, one short, one quite long.
Letr any readers who may venrute to studying decide.
(1)
http://makeashorterlink.com/?C10D12A96
From:
Subject: Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a Christian
Newsgroups: alt.bible, alt.christnet.philosophy, alt.christnet.theology,
alt.religion.christian, alt.atheism
Date: 2002-06-04 04:35:59 PST
(2)
[part vi]
CHRISTIAN ORTHODOXY AND THE FOUNDERS
Just some of the cited and excerpted sources used in this over all article
There are duplications in some instances, in most I tried to eliminate the
duplications.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************************
THE GARDINER (aka Searle) MEET Mr. MADISON SERIES
The entire thread of this series can be viewd on the left hand sode of the
following URL
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L25A26A96
http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=386b43cc.6165287%40
news.exis.net&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dg:thl2138498068d%26dq%3D%26hl%3Den%2
6lr%3D%26selm%3D386b43cc.6165287%2540news.exis.net%26rnum%3D1
***********************************
(1). Topic: Madison never seemed to have been an ardent believer himself
(Ketcham, William Lee Miller, Robert Alley)
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl2138498068d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&selm=386b43cc.6165
287%40news.exis.net&rnum=1
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=386b43cc.6165287%40news.exis.net&output=gplain
[12-29-99]
(2). Topic: Additional info showing Madison never seemed to have been an
ardent believer himself (Ketcham)
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=566179370&fmt=text [12-29-99]
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl2138498068d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&selm=387c7366.1462
7437%40news.exis.net
[AND]
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1932347190d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&selm=386c439f.23946
45%40news.exis.net
[AND]
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1932347190d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&selm=387db01c.2921
488%40news.exis.net
(3). Topic: Madison's Familiarity with writings of Europeans (Ketcham)
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl2138498068d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&selm=386d4b72.8123
421%40news.exis.net
[12-29-99]
(4). Topic: Additional info on Madison's familiarity with writings of
Europeans (Ketcham)
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1932347190d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&selm=386c439f.23946
45%40news.exis.net
[12-29-99]
(5). Topic: Did "religious freedom" for Jefferson and Madison extend
to atheists? Yes. (William Lee Miller)
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl2138498068d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&selm=387c7366.1462
7437%40news.exis.net
[12-30-99]
(6). Topic: Gardiner's fudging on Priestley [12-30-99]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_566603206
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1519449593d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=387
972cb.14472662%40news.exis.net&rnum=14
(7). Topic: Response to Gardiner's reply on familiarity with writings of
Europeans plus letter TO F. L. SCHAEFFER (only mention of Luther in any of
Madison's writings found to date) and references to Blackstone in Madison's
writings (Ketcham) [12-30-99]
http://makeashorterlink.com/?O26213896
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=387669cf.12171966%40news.exis.net&oe=UTF-8&outp
ut=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1519449593d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
&selm=387669cf.12171966%40news.exis.net
(8). Topic: Evidence relating to the substance of Madison's religious
studies during this period (childhood to 1776) is scanty. (Ketcham)
[12-30-99]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_566596922
(9). Topic: Additional evidence that Madison's religion or lack thereof
was largely unknown [12-30-99] (Madison)
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_566505236
(10). Topic: Here was a man (Madison) inspired by what she described as
"the true religion of statesmanship, (political religion, the religion of
politics) ("Madison" in Martineau's Retrospect of Western Travel
(London and New York, 1838). Drew McCoy) [12-30-99]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_566596921
(11). Topic: There is positive evidence that he (Madison) never intended to
make the ministry his life work, (Ketcham) [12-30-99]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_566505231
(12). Topic: Madison & Calvin (Ketcham) 12-30-99]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_566466752
(13). Topic: it becomes apparent that Madison did not maintain his
interest in theological controversy very long after his period of entrance
into public life in 1776. (Ketcham) [12-30-99]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_566596920
(14). Topic: Madison went far beyond Locke (Ketcham) [12-31-99]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_566824290
(15). Topic: He [Madison] never became a member of the Episcopal Church
(Ketcham) [12-31-99]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_566824288
(16). Topic: Lack of mentioning of Luther and Calvin in the Papers of
Madison (The Papers of James Madison ) [12-31-99]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_566845179
(17). Topic: Bogus quote attributed to Madison (Robert S. Alley) [12-31-99]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_566824287
(18). Topic: In 1814, Madison demonstrated his occasional Enlightenment
antagonism toward clericalism in a bitter comment on New England's
resistance to the War of 1812: (Ketcham) [12-31-99]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_566824289
(19). Topic: Madison, Religion and education (letters to and from Madison)
[1-1-00]
http://makeashorterlink.com/?X21E63896
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=38781f1e.16513987%40news.exis.net&oe=UTF-8&outp
ut=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl4163172164d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
&selm=38781f1e.16513987%40news.exis.net
(20). Topic: Beasley had written to Madison requesting that he offer his
opinion on a pamphlet, Vindication of the Argument a prior in Proof of the
Being and Attributes of God. (letter from Madison) [1-1-00]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_567132679
(21). Topic: Madison and Separation Church & State (Madison) [1-1-00]
http://makeashorterlink.com/?D13E22896
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=387311b8.13084091%40news.exis.net&oe=UTF-8&outp
ut=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1262978779d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
&selm=387311b8.13084091%40news.exis.net
(22). Topic: Asking Childress a question about Madison that Childress has
never answered [1-2-00]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_567462905
(23). Topic: About the General assessment battle in Virginia (Robert A.
Rutland,) [ Jan. 22, 2000]
http://makeashorterlink.com/?D26E12896
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=k05qbskl4t2s4vldg3p8ihb9epqri9eucc%404ax.com&oe=
UTF-8&output=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=buckeye%40exis.net,+In+this+confused+situation+Presbyter
ians+occupied+an+ambiguous&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=k05qbskl4t2s4vldg3p
8ihb9epqri9eucc%404ax.com&rnum=2&filter=0
(24). Topic: Madison and 1774-76 [Jan 22, 2000] (Robert A. Rutland)
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_591737267
(25). Topic: A comparison between the fifteen-paragraph Memorial and
Remonstrance and John Locke's "Letter on Toleration" (1685) leads to the
speculation that Madison had occasion to use Locke's treatise in preparing
his own. (Robert A. Rutland) [Jan. 22, 2000]
http://groups.google.com/groups?o
=djq&selm=an_591737290
(26) (James Madison's Memorial and Remonstrance [1-3-00] (Madison)
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3881a295.5536473%40news.exis.net&oe=UTF-8&outpu
t=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl4163172164d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
&selm=3881a295.5536473%40news.exis.net
(27) Explanation of James Madison's Memorial and Remonstrance [1-3-00]
(Ketcham)
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=9hu1dskd1qcunsmbp1t84qi5s9f0el89sd%404ax.com&oe
=UTF-8&output=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl527410419d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
&selm=9hu1dskd1qcunsmbp1t84qi5s9f0el89sd%404ax.com
(28). Topic: Reminding Gardiner Madison never joined the Episcopalian
church (Ketcham) [1-4-00]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_568184543
(29). Topic: Letters from Madison showing he was not well versed in
theology and religion
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=569518061&fmt=text [1-7-00]
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1499747947d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&selm=3879dc70.2989
938%40news.exis.net
(30). Topic: Why did Madison go to Princeton (Irving
Brant, The Papers of James Madison, Madison, Ketcham) [1-7-00]
http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2E935A96
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=vne8pvg236qs0tohi
v768cqa5m0psvah7a%404ax.com&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dbuckeye-ELO%2540nospam.net,%2
Bsearle,%2Bwhy%2Bdid%2BMadison%2Bgo%2Bto%2Bprinceton%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%2
6ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26selm%3Dvne8pvg236qs0tohiv768cqa5m0psvah7a%25404
ax.com%26rnum%3D4%26filter%3D0
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N10A21A96
(31) From probably even before the Constitution was written, on the various
state levels two primary camps of thought and desires formed regarding
religion and the state [1-11-00] [1]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=387f3215.6366757%40news.exis.net&oe=UTF-8&outpu
t=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3565196566d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
&selm=387f3215.6366757%40news.exis.net&rnum=63
(32) Montesquieu, Hume, Madison, By Paul A. Rahe [1-11-00] [II]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=389673c3.23182906%40news.exis.net&oe=UTF-8&outp
ut=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3565196566d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
&selm=389673c3.23182906%40news.exis.net
(33). Topic: Princeton, Witherspoon, Hume, Madison, By Paul A. Rahe
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_571284476 [1-11-00] [III]
(34). Topic: Madison to William Bradford, Dec. 1. 1773.
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=571284477&fmt=text [1-11-00] [IV]
(34). Topic: Madison to William Bradford, Jan 24. 1774
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=571855762&fmt=text [1-12-00] [V]
(34) Madison to William Bradford, Dec. 1. 1773. [1-11-00] [IV]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=38a07b26.25074153%40news.exis.net&oe=UTF-8&outp
ut=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3565196566d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
&selm=38a07b26.25074153%40news.exis.net
(35) Madison to William Bradford, Jan 24. 1774 [1-12-00] [V]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3891c390.7443939%40news.exis.net&oe=UTF-8&outpu
t=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3565196566d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
&selm=3891c390.7443939%40news.exis.net
(36). Topic: Madison, Witherspoon, Princeton, By Paul A. Rahe [1-12-00]
[VI]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_571855764
(37). Topic: Smith, Madison Voltaire, Locke, E. Randolph, By Paul A. Rahe
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=571855765&fmt=text [1-12-00] [VII]
(38) Smith, Madison Voltaire, Locke, E. Randolph, By Paul A. Rahe [1-12-00]
[VII]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=38a7d343.11463649%40news.exis.net&oe=UTF-8&outp
ut=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3565196566d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
&selm=38a7d343.11463649%40news.exis.net
(39) Madison identified as a Deist, language of Deism, etc. By Paul A. Rahe
[1-12-00] [VIII]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=38aad4c1.11846387%40news.exis.net&oe=UTF-8&outp
ut=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3565196566d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
&selm=38aad4c1.11846387%40news.exis.net
(40). Topic: There is no principle in all of Madison's wide range of
private opinions and long public career to which he held with greater vigor
and tenacity than this one of religious liberty. The strength of this
consistency was heightened significantly by the substitution of the concept
of freedom of conscience for the Lockean idea of toleration. [1-18-00]
[part I] (The Papers of James Madison)
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_574362732
(41). Topic: Declaration of Rights and Form of Government of Virginia (in
depth) [1-18-00] [part II] (The Papers of James Madison)
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_574362733
(42). Topic: Madison and Va Declaration of Rights (in depth)
[1-18-00] [part III] (The Papers of James Madison)
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_574362734
(43) Virginia Declaration of Rights (in depth) [1-18-00] [part IV]
(The Papers of James Madison)
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=o2i98scdl00d11lciri6g6qvevgp9sodqg%404ax.com&oe=
UTF-8&output=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl527410419d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
&selm=o2i98scdl00d11lciri6g6qvevgp9sodqg%404ax.com
(44). Topic: Committee's Proposed Article on Religion (in depth)
(The Papers of James Madison)
[1-18-00] [part V]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_574362737
(45) Madison and Joseph Story [1-18-00]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=v8v88skkoqgtgic0jnttbo1q5k97f5ub19%404ax.com&oe=
UTF-8&output=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl827347558d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
&selm=v8v88skkoqgtgic0jnttbo1q5k97f5ub19%404ax.com&rnum=72
(46) Madison and Joseph Story [1-18-00]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=t7v88scgtkns23ueobraiml94dbbvvqva0%404ax.com&oe
=UTF-8&output=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl827347558d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
&selm=t7v88scgtkns23ueobraiml94dbbvvqva0%404ax.com&rnum=75
(47) About the General assessment battle in Virginia [ Jan. 22, 2000]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=k05qbskl4t2s4vldg3p8ihb9epqri9eucc%404ax.com&oe=
UTF-8&output=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=buckeye%40exis.net,+In+this+confused+situation+Presbyter
ians+occupied+an+ambiguous&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=k05qbskl4t2s4vldg3p
8ihb9epqri9eucc%404ax.com&rnum=2&filter=0
(48). Topic: George Mason, Madison and the Virginia Declaration of Rights
(The papers of James Madison) [1-20-99]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_575408885
(49). Topic: toleration (Robert S. Alley)
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=576930036&fmt=text [1-24-00] [I]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_576930036
(50). Topic: toleration (Robert S. Alley)
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=576930037&fmt=text [1-24-00] [II]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_576930037
(51). Topic: toleration (Robert S. Alley)
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=576930038&fmt=text [1-24-00] [III]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_576930038
(52). Topic: toleration (Robert S. Alley)
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=576930039& [1-24-2000] [IV]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_576930039
(53). Topic: toleration
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=576956927&fmt=text [1-24-00] [IV]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_576956927
(54). Topic: toleration (Robert S. Alley)
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=576930040&fmt=text [1-24-00] [V]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_576930040
(55). Topic: toleration (Robert S. Alley)
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=576930041&fmt=text [1-24-00] [VI]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_576930041
(56). Topic: toleration (Robert S. Alley)
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=576930042&fmt=text [1-24-00] [VII]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_576930042
(57). Topic: copyright [1-28-00]
http://makeashorterlink.com/?G65813A96
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl186410010d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=gq73
9sspis0toc1ko80o5irj7tqbfdl6b8%404ax.com
(58). Topic: Additional evidence of Madison separating from Witherspoon on
church state thinking [John Witherspoon on Church and State, by James
Hastings Nichols. JOURNAL OF PRESBYTERIAN HISTORY, 42, (1964)
pp 171-73]
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=591400477&fmt=text
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_591400477
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