PART II
[I said ]
:|> This one is far better:
:|http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=387669cf.12171966%40news.exis.net&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain
:|>
:|> My Reply will be found in the newly posted article
:|> Christian Orthodoxy And The Founders
:|> http://members.tripod.com/~candst/orthodox.htm
:|
[ ambrose searle aka richard gardiner ] said
:|A "reply" that has been thoroughly answered at
:|
:|http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=fe9a0c54.0311172019.274b6fb5%40posting.google.com
[ my reply]
Now in your wildest dreams.
Your standard ploy here is to try and attack the source, be it a web site
or the one posting or in some cases even a scholar.
That is pretty standard with you, you seem to want the world to believe
that only you know the "truth," and anyone who disagrees with your position
has got to have it wrong no matter who they are or how qualified they are.
You might sell that to members of the choir, but you will not fool most
people who may even bother to read any of the exchanges between us.
Two Items, one short, one quite long.
Letr any readers who may venrute to studying decide.
(1)
http://makeashorterlink.com/?C10D12A96
From:
Subject: Re: Was Thomas Jefferson a Christian
Newsgroups: alt.bible, alt.christnet.philosophy, alt.christnet.theology,
alt.religion.christian, alt.atheism
Date: 2002-06-04 04:35:59 PST
[part ii]
(2) CHRISTIAN ORTHODOXY AND THE FOUNDERS
Just some of the cited and excerpted sources used in this over all article
There are duplications in some instances, in most I tried to eliminate the
duplications.
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Another view of America and it's founders and founding:
Subject: A Series: Founders & Religion [Feb 1, 2003] [10]
[Again, just some of the sources of information]
#1
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N63F12796
http://snurl.com/2rjk
George Washington & Religion, by Paul F. Boller, Southern Methodist
University Press: Dallas TX (1962)
The American Historical Review Vol. 104 # 3 June 1999.
http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/ahr/104.3/br_36.html
Allen Jayne. Jefferson's Declaration of Independence: Origins,
Philosophy, and Theology. Lexington: University Press of Kentucky. 1998.
Pp. xiii, 245.
The Rise of American Civilization,"by Charles A. and Mary R. Beard.
(Vol. I., p. 449.)
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#2
http://makeashorterlink.com/?B58F21796
http://snurl.com/2rjl
W. J. Passingham, A History of the Coronation (London:
n.p., n.d.), p. 18.
At the coronation of King George III in 1761 no less than six
prayers were read as part of the service. For a detailed description of
this service as well as the complete texts of the prayers offered see
Richard Thomson, ed., ll Faithful Account of the Processions and Ceremonies
Observed in the Coronation of the Kings and Queens of England (London: n.
p., 1820), pp. 48-62.
For other aspects of the English coronation see
B. Wilkerson, The Coronation in History (London: George Philip and Son,
1953);
William Jones, Crowns and Coronations (London: Chatto and
Windus,1883);
Lewis Broad,Queens, Crowns and Coronations (London: Hutchinson and
Co., 1952);
Reverend Robert H. Murray, The King's Crowning (London: John
Murray, 1936);
E. C. Ratcliff, The English Coronation Service (London:
Skeffington and Son, 1937).
Maclay, Journal, p. 5.
Though "so help me God" was a common expression associated with the
taking of an oath, there is strong circumstantial evidence that the
antecedent rhetorical form was the coronation service. First, Washington
not only spoke the words used in the coronation, but he also followed the
words by kissing the Bible, just as George III did in 1761. These words and
actions had been associated with the coronation since the installation of
James I in 1603 (see Jones, Crowns and Richard Henry Lee, was familiar
with the coronation service and thus would have known the correct
procedure. Since Lee was at the center of the fight to include divine
service as part of the inauguration, it is not unreasonable to hypothesize
his influence on these "religious" elements which served as an addendum to
the oath. See Thomson, ed., A Faithful Account, p. 55.
"From Duche to Provoost: The Birth Of Inaugural Prayer", by Martin
J. Medhurst. Journal Of Church And State, Vol. 24, No. 3, Autumn 1982, pp
585-587)
Barry Schwartz, George Washington: The Making of an American
Symbol, New York: The Free Press, 1987, pp. 174-175.)
St. George Tucker's Annotated Blackstone's Commentaries (1803)
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook-law.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/john_remsburg/six_historic_americans/chapter_3.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/john_remsburg/six_historic_americans/chapter_3.html
http://community.libertynet.org/~iha/valleyforge/youasked/060.htm
http://community.libertynet.org/~iha/valleyforge/washington/prayer.html
http://rowlf.cc.wwu.edu:8080/~stephan/webstuff/twain.html
http://www.libertynet.org/iha/valleyforge/served/martha.html
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#3
http://makeashorterlink.com/?B2AF13796
http://snurl.com/2rjm
George Washington & Religion, by Paul F. Boller JR. Southern
Methodist University Press. (1963) pp 32-35
George Washington & Religion, by Paul F. Boller JR. Southern
Methodist University Press. (1963) pp 27
George Washington & Religion, by Paul F. Boller JR.
Southern Methodist University Press. (1963) pp 29
George Washington & Religion, by Paul F. Boller JR.
Southern Methodist University Press. (1963) pp 67
*Madison to William Bradford, Orange County, April 1, 1774, cited
in Brant I, p 115 James Madison and Religion A New Hypothesis, by
Ralph L. Ketcham. James Madison on Religious Liberty, Edited, with
introductions and interpretations by Robert S. Alley. Prometheus Books,
Buffalo N.Y. (1985) pp 184)
Nicholas Collins, "An Essay on those inquiries in Natural
Philosophy which at present are most beneficial to the United States of
America," American Philosophical Society, Trans., II (1793), vii;
George H. Knoles, "The Religious Ideas of Thomas Jefferson,"
Mirsissippi Valley Historical Review, XXX (1943-44), '94·: He"'y May, The
Enlightenment in America (New York, 1976), 72-73; Bufler, Awash in a Sea of
Faith, 195-96, 214-15;
Trevor Colbourn, ed., Fame and the Founding Fathers: Essays by
Douglass Adair (New York, 1974), 147n. The Radicalism of the American
Revolution, by Gordon S. Wood, Alfred A. Knopf, N Y (1992) pp 330)
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#4
http://makeashorterlink.com/?F4EF34796
http://snurl.com/2rjn
George Washington
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_buckner/quotations.html
James Thomas Flexner, George Washington and the New Nation
[1783-1793], Boston: Little, Brown and Company, 1970, p. 184.)
(Barry Schwartz, George Washington: The Making of an American
Symbol, New York: The Free Press, 1987, pp. 85-86.)
The American Heritage, History of Making the Nation
1783-1860, American Heritage/Bonanza Books N.Y. (1987) pp 77-78)
The papers of James Madison, Volume 8, March 10,
1784- March 28, 1786. Edited by Robert A. Rutland, William M.E. Rachal.
The University of Chicago Press, (1973) pp 295-298
The papers of James Madison, Volume 8, March 10,
1784- March 28, 1786. Edited by Robert A. Rutland, William M.E. Rachal.
The University of Chicago Press, (1973) pp 295-298
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#5
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Y2FF11796
http://snurl.com/2rjo
From Henry May, The American Enlightenment, Oxford, 1976, page 72,
we find this about George:
William Lee Miller The First Liberty: Religion and the American
Republic,
" No Religious test Shall Ever BeRequired: Reflections on the
Bicentennial of the U. S. Constitution., James E, Wood, Jr. Journal of
Church and State. Volume 29, Spring. 1987, Number 2
pp 206-208)
The Religious Life of Thomas Jefferson, by Charles B. Sanford.
University of Virginia Press, Charlottesville, (1984 --third paperback
printing, 1992)
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#6
http://makeashorterlink.com/?I60026896
http://snurl.com/2rjq
William Dunlap's Diary, September 30, 1797 supra cit.
James Kent, A Study in Conservatism, 1763-1847, by John Theodore Horton. Da
Capo Press, N Y (1969, Copyright 1939, The American Historical Association)
p. 192-93.
Jeremiah S. Black, noted constitutional advocate, Essays and
Speeches, D. Appleton and Co., 1885. As quoted by Leo Pfeffer, "The
Establishment Clause: The Never-Ending Conflict," in Ronald C. White and
Albright G. Zimmerman, An Unsettled Arena: Religion and the Bill of Rights,
Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1990, p.
72.)
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#7
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L22012896
http://snurl.com/2rju
http://www.uua.org/info/origins.html
http://www.jjnet.com/famousuus/history.htm
Religion and the American Constitutional
Experiment, Essential Rights and Liberties. John Witte Jr. Westview Press,
(2000) pp 24)
Meade, William, Old churches, Ministers and Families of Virginia.
(Philadelphia, 1857) pp191;
Meade, pp 100
Moncure Daniel Conway, Omitted Chapters of History Disclosed in
the Life and papers of Edmund Randolph (1888), pp 156
Herbert M. Morals, Deism in America EB, XXI, 617
Thomas Jefferson versus Religious oppression, by Frank Swancara,
University Books, N Y (1969) pp 130
Lectures on Moral Philosophy (ed. Collins), pp. 111-13.
John Witherspoon on Church and State, by James Hastings Nichols.
JOURNAL OF PRESBYTERIAN HISTORY, 42, (1964) pp 171-73)
WrJM VIII 411--13: Letter to Mordecai M. Noah on 15 May 1818.
It can hardly be fortuitous that, in critical documents, both
resort to the language of Deism. Cf. PTI 1 413-33 (esp. 423, 429):
The Declaration of independence with Madison, The Federalist 43
(297) See also
WrJM IX 573-607 (esp. 590, 599): Notes on Nullification,
1835-36-where "the law of nature & of nature's God" turns out to be an
extrapolation from Thomas Hobbes's "natural right of self-preservation."
For another circumstance in which Madison appealed to "nature and nature's
God," see
WrJM V1 332-40 (at 340): Address of the General Assembly to the
People of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 23 January 1799. At Princeton. if
Madison perused all of the books that Dr. Witherspoon assigned, he will
have encountered The Being and Attributes of God by Newton's Dr. Clarke.
His own testimony suggests that he was swayed from religious orthodoxy at
about the time of the Revolution by renewed study of the work. Fitty years
later, he would still endorse "reasoning from the effect to the cause,
`from Nature to Nature's God,' " and he evidently hoped that the students
at the University of Virginia would learn to do the same. Note the
inclusion of Clarke's work on the list that Madison drew up in 1824 Of
theological works appropriate for use at the university (WrJM IX 203-7n)
and see WrJM IX 229--71: Letter to Frederick Beasley on 20 November 1825
Though Madison was outwardly observant, he never joined any church, and his
heterodoxy was widely suspected at the time. For further discussion, see
Brant, James Madison I 68-71, 85· 1"-22, 127-31, 1II 268-73, and
Ralph Ketcham, "James Madison and Religion--A New Hypothesis,"
Journal of the Presbyterian Historical Society 38, no. 2 (June 1960):
65-90, and
James Madison: A Biography (New York 1971) 55-58, 61, 66, 162-68.
Ketcham demonstrates Madison's inierest in metaphysical guestions but
provides no evidence to support his assertion that the mature Madison
should be considered a more or less orthodox Christian. In fact, given the
political circumstances, the absence of substantive evidence suggests the
opposite opinion, for it is far easier to explain the reticence of a
statesman who holds unorthodox opinions than to account for the silence of
a politician whose views accord well with those of his compatriots. In any
case. as Madison's private correspondence indicates, his motive for
entering the fray on behalf of freedom of conscience and against the
establishment of religion was from the outset political and not religious.
Note that, from at least one political perspective, Deism is the functional
equivalent of atheism: see Hobbes, De cive IIl.xv. 14, and consider 1I
Prologue, note 46, above.
See J. G. A. Pocock, "Religious Freedom and the Desacralization of
Politics: From the English Civil Wars to the Virginia Statute," in The
Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom 43-73
The Federalist 11 (71)·
On this point, see Lance Banning, "James Madison, the Statute for
Religious Freedom, and the Crisis of Republican Convictions," in The
Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom 109-38.
Republics Ancient and Modern, Inventions of Prudence: Constituting
the American Regime, By Paul A. Rahe, Volume III, The University of north
carolina Press, Chapel Hill & London (1994) pp 53-54
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#8
http://makeashorterlink.com/?U15725696
Paine, the greatest exile, by David powell, St.
Martin's Press N.Y. (1985) pp 75-76)
Jefferson's autobiography]
http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/p/paine.htm
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