Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"david ford"
Date:	02 Jul 2004 08:25:03 PM
Object:	Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial

Ken Shaw <none.of@your.biz> wrote in message news:<4YXDc.38840$OB3.8194@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...

david ford wrote:

Harlequin <usenet@cox.net> wrote in message news:<Xns951143517936usenet123mmcablecom@68.12.19.6>...

The official English version of Harun Yahya's Holocaust
denial book is online. It is in the form of a PDF
that is ZIPed.

http://www.harunyahya.com/download/download.php?id=13985

Those who are interested might grab a copy since it being
noticed might result in it being removed. Needless
to say, it _is_ a Holocaust denying book.

http://www.harunyahya.com/m_books.php
has more books. He appears to be an Islamic intelligent design person.

David, did you read the book at the link Harlequin posted?

No. Did you?

If you
consider these people to be fellow travelers on ID have you contacted
them about the repugnant claims made in that book?

I don't know what claims are made in that book. I have not contacted
anyone about the claims presented in that book.

Don't you consider it
odd that many supporters of the various forms of creationism insist that
people who accept evolution are nazis

This is news to me.

while Hovind, Harun Yahya and
several other major creationist deny the holocaust and seem supportive
of nazi beliefs?

All creationists of which I am aware oppose the Nazi belief in life
being a struggle, where it is survival of the fittest.
Do you reject that Nazi belief?

Or is it that anyone who agrees with you on this issue will be let slide
on issues of at least equal importance?

What are some claims of Harun Yahya with which you think I should not
[KS]"let slide"?
.

User: "Ken Shaw"
Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial	03 Jul 2004 05:18:55 PM

david ford wrote:

Ken Shaw <none.of@your.biz> wrote in message news:<4YXDc.38840$OB3.8194@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...

david ford wrote:

Harlequin <usenet@cox.net> wrote in message news:<Xns951143517936usenet123mmcablecom@68.12.19.6>...

http://www.harunyahya.com/m_books.php
has more books. He appears to be an Islamic intelligent design person.

David, did you read the book at the link Harlequin posted?

No. Did you?

All 280+ pages and have forwarded it to the ADL.

If you
consider these people to be fellow travelers on ID have you contacted
them about the repugnant claims made in that book?

I don't know what claims are made in that book. I have not contacted
anyone about the claims presented in that book.

The author claims that there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz among a
number of equally outrageous claims.

Don't you consider it
odd that many supporters of the various forms of creationism insist that
people who accept evolution are nazis

This is news to me.

Don't you read this ng?

while Hovind, Harun Yahya and
several other major creationist deny the holocaust and seem supportive
of nazi beliefs?

All creationists of which I am aware oppose the Nazi belief in life
being a struggle, where it is survival of the fittest.
Do you reject that Nazi belief?

That is not a nazi belief. Don't try and turn ns into a nazi belief.
You fail to state whether you oppose holocaust deniers who are also
supporters of creationists.

Or is it that anyone who agrees with you on this issue will be let slide
on issues of at least equal importance?

What are some claims of Harun Yahya with which you think I should not
[KS]"let slide"?

The book at the link:
http://www.harunyahya.com/download/download.php?id=13985
is full of them.
Ken
.

User: "david ford"
Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial	03 Jul 2004 11:20:05 PM

Ken Shaw <none.of@your.biz> wrote in message news:<MkGFc.56582$OB3.28425@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...

david ford wrote:

Ken Shaw <none.of@your.biz> wrote in message news:<4YXDc.38840$OB3.8194@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...

david ford wrote:

Harlequin <usenet@cox.net> wrote in message news:<Xns951143517936usenet123mmcablecom@68.12.19.6>...

http://www.harunyahya.com/m_books.php
has more books. He appears to be an Islamic intelligent design person.

David, did you read the book at the link Harlequin posted?

No. Did you?

All 280+ pages and have forwarded it to the ADL.

Excellent.

If you
consider these people to be fellow travelers on ID have you contacted
them about the repugnant claims made in that book?

I don't know what claims are made in that book. I have not contacted
anyone about the claims presented in that book.

The author claims that there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz among a
number of equally outrageous claims.

I'm not an expert on Auschwitz. If you say there were [KS]"gas
chambers at Auschwitz," I'm not going to disagree with you.

Don't you consider it
odd that many supporters of the various forms of creationism insist that
people who accept evolution are nazis

This is news to me.

Don't you read this ng?

I do look at various threads in the newsgroup talk.origins, but
apparently don't read the posts you read.

while Hovind, Harun Yahya and
several other major creationist deny the holocaust and seem supportive
of nazi beliefs?

All creationists of which I am aware oppose the Nazi belief in life
being a struggle, where it is survival of the fittest.
Do you reject that Nazi belief?

That is not a nazi belief.

Oh yes it is.

Don't try and turn ns into a nazi belief.

What is your take on "natural diminution" and "natural selection" as
used by Heydrich below?
Koster, Jr., John P. 1989. _The Atheist Syndrome_
(Brentwood, Tennessee: Wolgemuth & Hyatt, Publishers, Inc.),
199pp. Two paragraphs on 154:
By the beginning of 1942, the Nazis had come into
possession of several million Jews in countries they had
conquered or otherwise occupied. At a conference in
Wannsee, a suburb of Berlin, Reinhard Heydrich, second in
command of the Nazi S.S., explained what was to be done
with the remaining Jews. "The Jews should be sent to the
Eastern territories as laborers, the sexes being separated.
They should be employed in building roads as they move
eastward, and no doubt a large part of them will be
eliminated by natural diminution. The survivors, the
hardiest among them, must be given an appropriate
treatment, because they represent a natural selection, and if
they were allowed to go free, they would be the seedbed
for a new efflorescence of Jewry. Witness the examples of
history. In the course of the final solution, Europe will be
raked over from west to east. The Jews thus evacuated will
be transported by train to temporary ghettos, and from
these ghettos they will be dispatched farther and farther
east."^6
Note two phrases: _appropriate treatment_, like _special
treatment_, is a Nazi euphemism for deliberate execution,
as opposed to death by overwork or neglect. The term
_natural selection_, of course, and the idea that the
survivors might live to breed a sturdier race, is right out of
Darwin.
^6: Robert Payne, _The Life and Death of Adolf Hitler_ (New
York: Praeger Publishers, 1973), p. 466.

You fail to state whether you oppose holocaust deniers who are also
supporters of creationists.

You fail to state whether you oppose the Nazi belief in life being a
struggle, where it is survival of the fittest.

Or is it that anyone who agrees with you on this issue will be let slide
on issues of at least equal importance?

What are some claims of Harun Yahya with which you think I should not
[KS]"let slide"?

The book at the link:
http://www.harunyahya.com/download/download.php?id=13985

is full of them.

User: "Mitchell Coffey"
Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial	11 Jul 2004 01:36:45 AM

On Sun, 4 Jul 2004 04:20:05 +0000 (UTC),

(david
ford) wrote:

Ken Shaw <none.of@your.biz> wrote in message news:<MkGFc.56582$OB3.28425@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...

david ford wrote:

Ken Shaw <none.of@your.biz> wrote in message news:<4YXDc.38840$OB3.8194@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...

david ford wrote:

Harlequin <usenet@cox.net> wrote in message news:<Xns951143517936usenet123mmcablecom@68.12.19.6>...

http://www.harunyahya.com/m_books.php
has more books. He appears to be an Islamic intelligent design person.

David, did you read the book at the link Harlequin posted?

No. Did you?

All 280+ pages and have forwarded it to the ADL.

Excellent.

If you
consider these people to be fellow travelers on ID have you contacted
them about the repugnant claims made in that book?

I don't know what claims are made in that book. I have not contacted
anyone about the claims presented in that book.

The author claims that there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz among a
number of equally outrageous claims.

I'm not an expert on Auschwitz. If you say there were [KS]"gas
chambers at Auschwitz," I'm not going to disagree with you.

Don't you consider it
odd that many supporters of the various forms of creationism insist that
people who accept evolution are nazis

This is news to me.

Don't you read this ng?

I do look at various threads in the newsgroup talk.origins, but
apparently don't read the posts you read.

David, this thread, which you've been posting in for several days, is
titled "Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial." This should have given
you a heads-up. Y

while Hovind, Harun Yahya and
several other major creationist deny the holocaust and seem supportive
of nazi beliefs?

All creationists of which I am aware oppose the Nazi belief in life
being a struggle, where it is survival of the fittest.
Do you reject that Nazi belief?

That is not a nazi belief.

Oh yes it is.

Don't try and turn ns into a nazi belief.

What is your take on "natural diminution" and "natural selection" as
used by Heydrich below?

Koster, Jr., John P. 1989. _The Atheist Syndrome_
(Brentwood, Tennessee: Wolgemuth & Hyatt, Publishers, Inc.),
199pp. Two paragraphs on 154:
By the beginning of 1942, the Nazis had come into
possession of several million Jews in countries they had
conquered or otherwise occupied. At a conference in
Wannsee, a suburb of Berlin, Reinhard Heydrich, second in
command of the Nazi S.S., explained what was to be done
with the remaining Jews. "The Jews should be sent to the
Eastern territories as laborers, the sexes being separated.
They should be employed in building roads as they move
eastward, and no doubt a large part of them will be
eliminated by natural diminution. The survivors, the
hardiest among them, must be given an appropriate
treatment, because they represent a natural selection, and if
they were allowed to go free, they would be the seedbed
for a new efflorescence of Jewry. Witness the examples of
history. In the course of the final solution, Europe will be
raked over from west to east. The Jews thus evacuated will
be transported by train to temporary ghettos, and from
these ghettos they will be dispatched farther and farther
east."^6

Note two phrases: _appropriate treatment_, like _special
treatment_, is a Nazi euphemism for deliberate execution,
as opposed to death by overwork or neglect. The term
_natural selection_, of course, and the idea that the
survivors might live to breed a sturdier race, is right out of
Darwin.

^6: Robert Payne, _The Life and Death of Adolf Hitler_ (New
York: Praeger Publishers, 1973), p. 466.

You fail to state whether you oppose holocaust deniers who are also
supporters of creationists.

You fail to state whether you oppose the Nazi belief in life being a
struggle, where it is survival of the fittest.

Or is it that anyone who agrees with you on this issue will be let slide
on issues of at least equal importance?

What are some claims of Harun Yahya with which you think I should not
[KS]"let slide"?

The book at the link:
http://www.harunyahya.com/download/download.php?id=13985

is full of them.

User: "Ken Shaw"
Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial	04 Jul 2004 08:29:55 AM

david ford wrote:

Ken Shaw <none.of@your.biz> wrote in message news:<MkGFc.56582$OB3.28425@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...

david ford wrote:

Ken Shaw <none.of@your.biz> wrote in message news:<4YXDc.38840$OB3.8194@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...

david ford wrote:

Harlequin <usenet@cox.net> wrote in message news:<Xns951143517936usenet123mmcablecom@68.12.19.6>...

http://www.harunyahya.com/m_books.php
has more books. He appears to be an Islamic intelligent design person.

David, did you read the book at the link Harlequin posted?

No. Did you?

All 280+ pages and have forwarded it to the ADL.

Excellent.

If you
consider these people to be fellow travelers on ID have you contacted
them about the repugnant claims made in that book?

I don't know what claims are made in that book. I have not contacted
anyone about the claims presented in that book.

The author claims that there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz among a
number of equally outrageous claims.

I'm not an expert on Auschwitz. If you say there were [KS]"gas
chambers at Auschwitz," I'm not going to disagree with you.

Don't you consider it
odd that many supporters of the various forms of creationism insist that
people who accept evolution are nazis

This is news to me.

Don't you read this ng?

I do look at various threads in the newsgroup talk.origins, but
apparently don't read the posts you read.

while Hovind, Harun Yahya and
several other major creationist deny the holocaust and seem supportive
of nazi beliefs?

All creationists of which I am aware oppose the Nazi belief in life
being a struggle, where it is survival of the fittest.
Do you reject that Nazi belief?

That is not a nazi belief.

Oh yes it is.

Don't try and turn ns into a nazi belief.

What is your take on "natural diminution" and "natural selection" as
used by Heydrich below?

That you have fallen to sophistry again.
<snip>

You fail to state whether you oppose holocaust deniers who are also
supporters of creationists.

You fail to state whether you oppose the Nazi belief in life being a
struggle, where it is survival of the fittest.

A further evasion of the simple question.

Or is it that anyone who agrees with you on this issue will be let slide
on issues of at least equal importance?

What are some claims of Harun Yahya with which you think I should not
[KS]"let slide"?

The book at the link:
http://www.harunyahya.com/download/download.php?id=13985

is full of them.

Your evasions and attempts at sophistry are taking you dangerously close
to holocaust denial. You seem to style yourself something of an
intellectual and seem to pride yourself on challenging the status quo
but on this particular subject you would be well served to do enough
research to verify the Holocaust.
I also note that you have still not retracted your supportive statements
of Harun Yahya in the face of clear evidence of the groups anti semitism
and holocaust denial.
Ken
.

User: "david ford"
Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial	04 Jul 2004 11:39:28 PM

Ken Shaw <none.of@your.biz> wrote in message news:<UGTFc.58696$OB3.11120@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
david ford wrote:
Ken Shaw <none.of@your.biz> wrote in message news:<MkGFc.56582$OB3.28425@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
david ford wrote:
Ken Shaw <none.of@your.biz> wrote in message news:<4YXDc.38840$OB3.8194@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
david ford wrote:
Harlequin <usenet@cox.net> wrote in message news:<Xns951143517936usenet123mmcablecom@68.12.19.6>...

The official English version of Harun Yahya's Holocaust
denial book is online. It is in the form of a PDF
that is ZIPed.

http://www.harunyahya.com/download/download.php?id=13985

Those who are interested might grab a copy since it being
noticed might result in it being removed. Needless
to say, it _is_ a Holocaust denying book.

http://www.harunyahya.com/m_books.php
has more books. He appears to be an Islamic intelligent design person.

David, did you read the book at the link Harlequin posted?

No. Did you?

All 280+ pages and have forwarded it to the ADL.

Excellent.

If you
consider these people to be fellow travelers on ID have you contacted
them about the repugnant claims made in that book?

I don't know what claims are made in that book. I have not contacted
anyone about the claims presented in that book.

The author claims that there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz among a
number of equally outrageous claims.

I'm not an expert on Auschwitz. If you say there were [KS]"gas
chambers at Auschwitz," I'm not going to disagree with you.

Don't you consider it
odd that many supporters of the various forms of creationism insist that
people who accept evolution are nazis

This is news to me.

Don't you read this ng?

I do look at various threads in the newsgroup talk.origins, but
apparently don't read the posts you read.

while Hovind, Harun Yahya and
several other major creationist deny the holocaust and seem supportive
of nazi beliefs?

All creationists of which I am aware oppose the Nazi belief in life
being a struggle, where it is survival of the fittest.
Do you reject that Nazi belief?

That is not a nazi belief.

Oh yes it is.

Don't try and turn ns into a nazi belief.

What is your take on "natural diminution" and "natural selection" as
used by Heydrich below?

That you have fallen to sophistry again.

<snip>

I see your evasion.

You fail to state whether you oppose holocaust deniers who are also
supporters of creationists.

You fail to state whether you oppose the Nazi belief in life being a
struggle, where it is survival of the fittest.

A further evasion of the simple question.

What is [KS]"the simple question"?

Or is it that anyone who agrees with you on this issue will be let slide
on issues of at least equal importance?

What are some claims of Harun Yahya with which you think I should not
[KS]"let slide"?

The book at the link:
http://www.harunyahya.com/download/download.php?id=13985

is full of them.

Your evasions and attempts at sophistry are taking you dangerously close
to holocaust denial. You seem to style yourself something of an
intellectual and seem to pride yourself on challenging the status quo
but on this particular subject you would be well served to do enough
research to verify the Holocaust.

I also note that you have still not retracted your supportive statements
of Harun Yahya in the face of clear evidence of the groups anti semitism
and holocaust denial.

[KS]"your supportive statements of Harun Yahya" Remind me, if you
would, of these supposed statements.
[KS]"evidence of the groups" What group(s) are you referring to?
I see that you snipped the Heydrich. No matter. If a lurker is just
now joining us, he or she can see it at
1942 Heydrich: "The Jews... no doubt a large part of them will be
eliminated by natural diminution. The survivors, the hardiest among
them, must be given an appropriate treatment, because they represent a
natural selection...."
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407032023.243f5883%40posting.google.com
[df]"the Nazi belief in life being a struggle, where it is survival of
the fittest. Do you reject that Nazi belief?" [KS]"That is not a
nazi belief." [KS]"Don't try and turn ns into a nazi belief."
How do you interpret the caption to slide 55, "So we once again bring
into play the natural law of selection _which the Creator gave to all
life_."?
TITLE: The Racial-Political Office of the NSDAP (National Socialist
German Workers Party) presents the educational film _ALLES LEBEN IST
KAMPF_ (All Life is Struggle). Design and editing by Dr. W. Huttig
and H. Gerdes. 1940.
Inserts:
1. All life on earth is struggle.
2. Struggle for existence and struggle for the maintenance of the
species.
3. In the struggle for food the cowardly and ill adapted will not get
enough.
4. In the struggle for the female the healthy win, so, only the best
hereditary characteristics are reproduced.
5. Everything is rigorously exterminated which is not a match for the
conditions of natural life.
6. That is true for plants and animals-- and to the same degree also
for human beings.
7. The weak and those ill adapted to life must yield to the strong.
Nature allows only the best life forces to exist.
8. Struggle is God's law. It serves the perfection of all creation.
9. Untold individual creatures indeed _whole groups_ of animal and
plant forms must bend before the hard law of the Creator. Sometimes
some good may have been involved-- but _always_ everything weak and
bad and that is decisive.
10. Forest and heath struggle in the moor for lebensraum (living
space).
11. The former rulers of the forest-- elk, bison, and bear-- are
inferior to human beings and only represent living museum pieces.
12. Even the human being has to hold his own against his
surroundings.
13. Again and again the Fresian farmer builds his dikes in the sea;
but in spite of this from time to time "blanke Hans" (the force of the
sea) breaks through and destroys decades of work.
14. Although the sea demands its due from every group, every
generation must take up its struggle with the elements.
15. Only the strong, stubborn, and clever will remain victors in
life's struggle over the long run.
16. Essential for life is our struggle against _diseases_, _sickness_
and against everything which threatens life and the development of the
human being.
17. Also the struggle against crime and everything low and inferior
advances a healthy national community.
18. Whenever a human being obeyed the laws of nature in his
domination of the plant and animal kingdom, a higher level of
development occurred which in turn benefited him.
19. But we human beings have often sinned against the laws of Nature.
The dingo dog previously introduced into Australia by human beings
has practically exterminated native animals there.
20. The weasel introduced in the Antilles has exterminated many
useful animals there.
21. But we believed that we not only had to preserve all inferior
life but even promote it. Look what we have done with many
domesticated animals!
22. Many of these deplorable creations would not be able to survive
by themselves.
23. We ere proud to have performed Nature's tricks ourselves and
posed as little creators, full of presumption. Even in our own ranks
those unfit to live have been taken care of and treasured and their
reproduction encouraged.
24. The past system [Weimar Republic] built palaces for idiots and
the criminally insane.
25. While poor but healthy men had to live in falling down hovels.
26. The hearts of these children, hungry for the sun, are filled with
a will to live but for them there only remains the dingy courtyard.
27. The inhabitants of the palaces look like this; indifferent,
animal-like, unreceptive to the beauty with which they are surrounded.
28. By far the largest proportion of these inmates are hereditarily
defective even if the malady did not appear in their parents.
ALLES LEBEN IST KAMPF: PART II
29. These human beings who are not equal to the struggle for
existence can only be maintained at the expense of their healthy
contemporaries.
30. Forty-five year old idiot, completely animal like.
31. Hereditarily sick Jewess cost up to this point 15,000 marks
(3,000 marks a year was a good salary).
32. _These lunatics are a living accusation against those bygone
viewpoints_
33. _alien to Nature_. Extravagantly cared for, many of these people
reach a ripe old age, usually a burden even to themselves.
34. Often relatives are found in the same asylum-- sisters
35. Brothers.
36. Mother and son.
37. Father and daughter.
38. Unless restricted the feebleminded reproduce themselves. Nearly
half of the inmates produced children before their incarceration.
39. A twenty-six year old obscene idiot. Both parents were
weak-minded. One brother is also an idiot.
40. Weak of mind and body.
41. Indecent son of a feeble minded mother.
42. feeble minded sisters from a genetically over-burdened family.
The mother bore ten children. These four children have cost the state
90,000 marks up til now.
43. Many hereditary maladies are not otherwise apparent. A feeble
minded brother and his sisters.
44. Often times murders, arson, and other acts of violence are
committed by the hereditary defective who are not responsible for
their actions. Thus hereditary maladies are a _scourge for the
nation_.
45. This lunatic beat her father to death.
46. In a fit this woman murdered her own child.
47. A murderer and thief.
48. This lunatic committed a crime of passion.
49. This man tried to kill his wife in an outbreak caused by his
inherited disposition.
50. This crazy one suffered from a persecution complex and beat
another man to death.
51. In a fit of anger this fellow beat his father to death with a
stick.
52. Adolf Hitler (_Mein Kampf_): "Whoever is not physically and
mentally healthy and responsible may not perpetrate his defect in the
body of his child."
53. Action followed words: A Law for the Prevention of Hereditary
Defective Descendents.
54. Sterilization excludes these people from reproduction while their
other bodily functions are not interfered with. Thereby our
descendants will be freed from a miserable inheritance.
55. So we once again bring into play the natural law of selection
_which the Creator gave to all life_.
56. In spite of this fact our people would have to succumb in the
struggle of life, if the will to life was not again awakened in the
hereditary healthy family.
57. If by our forebearance the one and two child family had been the
rule, then these people would not have been born: Frederick the
Great, J. S. Bach, Richard Wagner, Otto von Bismarck.
58. _But even you comrade_.
59. would not be alive if your forebearers had only one or two
children.
60. The hereditarily sick human being who voluntarily refuses to have
children deserves our respect. He contributes to the security of the
future of our people while the healthy person who for egotistical
reasons limits the number of his children denies this service to his
people.
61. Like a coward he avoids responsibility and denies himself the God
given happiness to be protector and leader of a healthy family.
62. He cheats his only child of the happiness of brother and sisters.
63. He exposes his few children to all the dangers which must befall
a people on the decline: _a shrinking people means a shrinking
economy_.
64. _A growing people means a growing economy_.
65. The future of our people lies with a future generation that is
hereditarily fit and large in number.
66. Young people healthy in body and mind
67. Full of strength and discipline
68. Full of creative power
69. Full of courage and will power
70. Must be the bearers
71. Of the eternal German Reich.
72. End: Racial-political office of the NSDAP.
.

User: "Ken Shaw"
Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial	05 Jul 2004 08:05:05 AM

david ford wrote:

The official English version of Harun Yahya's Holocaust
denial book is online. It is in the form of a PDF
that is ZIPed.

http://www.harunyahya.com/download/download.php?id=13985

Those who are interested might grab a copy since it being
noticed might result in it being removed. Needless
to say, it _is_ a Holocaust denying book.

http://www.harunyahya.com/m_books.php
has more books. He appears to be an Islamic intelligent design person.

David, did you read the book at the link Harlequin posted?

No. Did you?

All 280+ pages and have forwarded it to the ADL.

Excellent.

If you
consider these people to be fellow travelers on ID have you contacted
them about the repugnant claims made in that book?

I don't know what claims are made in that book. I have not contacted
anyone about the claims presented in that book.

The author claims that there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz among a
number of equally outrageous claims.

I'm not an expert on Auschwitz. If you say there were [KS]"gas
chambers at Auschwitz," I'm not going to disagree with you.

Don't you consider it
odd that many supporters of the various forms of creationism insist that
people who accept evolution are nazis

This is news to me.

Don't you read this ng?

I do look at various threads in the newsgroup talk.origins, but
apparently don't read the posts you read.

while Hovind, Harun Yahya and
several other major creationist deny the holocaust and seem supportive
of nazi beliefs?

All creationists of which I am aware oppose the Nazi belief in life
being a struggle, where it is survival of the fittest.
Do you reject that Nazi belief?

That is not a nazi belief.

Oh yes it is.

Don't try and turn ns into a nazi belief.

What is your take on "natural diminution" and "natural selection" as
used by Heydrich below?

That you have fallen to sophistry again.

<snip>

I see your evasion.

You fail to state whether you oppose holocaust deniers who are also
supporters of creationists.

You fail to state whether you oppose the Nazi belief in life being a
struggle, where it is survival of the fittest.

A further evasion of the simple question.

What is [KS]"the simple question"?

Do oppose creationist groups that also deny the Holocaust?

Or is it that anyone who agrees with you on this issue will be let slide
on issues of at least equal importance?

What are some claims of Harun Yahya with which you think I should not
[KS]"let slide"?

The book at the link:
http://www.harunyahya.com/download/download.php?id=13985

is full of them.

Your evasions and attempts at sophistry are taking you dangerously close
to holocaust denial. You seem to style yourself something of an
intellectual and seem to pride yourself on challenging the status quo
but on this particular subject you would be well served to do enough
research to verify the Holocaust.

I also note that you have still not retracted your supportive statements
of Harun Yahya in the face of clear evidence of the groups anti semitism
and holocaust denial.

[KS]"your supportive statements of Harun Yahya" Remind me, if you
would, of these supposed statements.

This post for starters:
http://tinyurl.com/23m9b

[KS]"evidence of the groups" What group(s) are you referring to?

Harun Yahya is thought to be more than one person.
If you continue to evade answering direct questions on this subject
people will have no choice but to assume you are a supporter of
Holocaust deniers.
<snipped more irrelevancies>
Ken
.

User: "david ford"
Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial	07 Jul 2004 06:50:56 AM

Ken Shaw <none.of@your.biz> wrote in message news:<NpcGc.195857$Gx4.5143@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
david ford wrote:
Ken Shaw <none.of@your.biz> wrote in message news:<UGTFc.58696$OB3.11120@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...

david ford wrote:
Ken Shaw <none.of@your.biz> wrote in message news:<MkGFc.56582$OB3.28425@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
david ford wrote:
Ken Shaw <none.of@your.biz> wrote in message news:<4YXDc.38840$OB3.8194@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
david ford wrote:
Harlequin <usenet@cox.net> wrote in message news:<Xns951143517936usenet123mmcablecom@68.12.19.6>...

The official English version of Harun Yahya's Holocaust
denial book is online. It is in the form of a PDF
that is ZIPed.

http://www.harunyahya.com/download/download.php?id=13985

Those who are interested might grab a copy since it being
noticed might result in it being removed. Needless
to say, it _is_ a Holocaust denying book.

http://www.harunyahya.com/m_books.php
has more books. He appears to be an Islamic intelligent design person.

David, did you read the book at the link Harlequin posted?

No. Did you?

All 280+ pages and have forwarded it to the ADL.

Excellent.

If you
consider these people to be fellow travelers on ID have you contacted
them about the repugnant claims made in that book?

I don't know what claims are made in that book. I have not contacted
anyone about the claims presented in that book.

The author claims that there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz among a
number of equally outrageous claims.

I'm not an expert on Auschwitz. If you say there were [KS]"gas
chambers at Auschwitz," I'm not going to disagree with you.

Don't you consider it
odd that many supporters of the various forms of creationism insist that
people who accept evolution are nazis

This is news to me.

Don't you read this ng?

I do look at various threads in the newsgroup talk.origins, but
apparently don't read the posts you read.

while Hovind, Harun Yahya and
several other major creationist deny the holocaust and seem supportive
of nazi beliefs?

All creationists of which I am aware oppose the Nazi belief in life
being a struggle, where it is survival of the fittest.
Do you reject that Nazi belief?

That is not a nazi belief.

Oh yes it is.

Don't try and turn ns into a nazi belief.

What is your take on "natural diminution" and "natural selection" as
used by Heydrich below?

That you have fallen to sophistry again.

<snip>

I see your evasion.

I still see your evasion continuing, having observed your snippage
below.

You fail to state whether you oppose holocaust deniers who are also
supporters of creationists.

You fail to state whether you oppose the Nazi belief in life being a
struggle, where it is survival of the fittest.

A further evasion of the simple question.

What is [KS]"the simple question"?

Do oppose creationist groups that also deny the Holocaust?

What is meant by [KS]"deny the Holocaust"? This is too vague. For
example, if someone says that the Nazis murdered 9 million and not 12
million humans, does that person [KS]"deny the Holocaust"? Or if
someone says that one particular concentration camp lacked gas
chambers, when that camp clearly did contain gas chambers, does that
person [KS]"deny the Holocaust"?
Also, are you aware of any [KS]"creationist groups that... deny the
Holocaust"? If "yes," what are some of those groups' names?

What in your view constitutes a minimal level of [KS]"oppos[ing]" a
group? Saying merely "I disagree with all of this group's claims"?
Saying merely "I disagree with this group's particular claim that
______________"? Alerting a different, disagreeing group to the
statements of the first group? Implementing a year-long media
campaign denouncing the group?

Or is it that anyone who agrees with you on this issue will be let slide
on issues of at least equal importance?

What are some claims of Harun Yahya with which you think I should not
[KS]"let slide"?

The book at the link:
http://www.harunyahya.com/download/download.php?id=13985

is full of them.

Your evasions and attempts at sophistry are taking you dangerously close
to holocaust denial. You seem to style yourself something of an
intellectual and seem to pride yourself on challenging the status quo
but on this particular subject you would be well served to do enough
research to verify the Holocaust.

I also note that you have still not retracted your supportive statements
of Harun Yahya in the face of clear evidence of the groups anti semitism
and holocaust denial.

[KS]"your supportive statements of Harun Yahya" Remind me, if you
would, of these supposed statements.

This post for starters:
http://tinyurl.com/23m9b

Wherein I stated:
I thank Harun Yahya, whoever or whatever this is, for drawing my
attention to the existence of Islamic intelligent design thought, and
for drawing my attention to a Futuyma comment linking materialism with
Freud's psychologising, Darwin's theory of evolution, and Marx's
materialism. See Futuyma, _Evolutionary Biology: Second Edition_
(Massachusetts: Sinauer Associates, Inc.), 600pp., 2.
Later in that thread, I wrote:
I thank Futuyma for his comment linking materialism with
Freud's psychologising, Darwin's theory of evolution, and Marx's
materialism. See Futuyma, _Evolutionary Biology: Second Edition_
(Massachusetts: Sinauer Associates, Inc.), 600pp., 2.
I personally do not consider the above remarks [KS]"supportive
statements of Harun Yahya," nor "supportive statements of Douglas
Futuyma."
BTW, I thank you, Ken Shaw, for prompting me to present the quotations
mentioned herein:
1942 Heydrich: "The Jews... no doubt a large part of them will be
eliminated by natural diminution. The survivors, the hardiest among
them, must be given an appropriate treatment, because they represent a
natural selection...."
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407032023.243f5883%40posting.google.com
1940 Nazi film "All Life is Struggle" embracing Darwinian natural
selection
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407042043.1c2ccf1f%40posting.google.com

[KS]"evidence of the groups" What group(s) are you referring to?

Harun Yahya is thought to be more than one person.

I still don't know what group(s) you were referring to.
What is the basis for the belief that [KS]"Harun Yahya is... more than
one person"?

If you continue to evade answering direct questions on this subject
people will have no choice but to assume you are a supporter of
Holocaust deniers.

<snipped more irrelevancies>

[df]"the Nazi belief in life being a struggle, where it is survival of
the fittest. Do you reject that Nazi belief?" [KS]"That is not a
nazi belief." Do you think Lanz considered the [L]"higher new-man" to
be "fitter" than the [L]"animal-man"?
Lanz appears to me to have contributed to the coming of the Holocaust.
What do you think?
Johnson, Paul. 1991. _Modern Times: The World from the
Twenties to the Nineties: Revised Edition_ (USA: HarperCollins
Publishers),
870pp. On 130:
He [Hitler] seems to have conceived the 'final solution' for
the Jews in the fantastic setting of the Gothic castle at
Werfenstein in Austria where an unfrocked monk, Jorg
Lanz von Liebenfels, was working out a systematic
programme of race-breeding and extermination 'for the
extirpation of the animal-man and the propagation of the
higher new-man', and waged the race-struggle 'to the hilt of
the castration knife'. It is significant that Lanz claimed
Lenin as well as Hitler among his disciples, seeing an
analogy between the extermination of classes 'thrown into
the dust-bin of history' and races eliminated by breeding
programmes, two forms of social Darwinism.^64 Hitler,
too, was very interested in class differences, very shrewd in
exploiting them to his advantage. But class did not stand
near the centre of his political dream because it was not a
visual concept. Race was. Hitler appears always to have
approached politics in terms of visual images. Like Lenin
and still more like Stalin, he was an outstanding
practitioner of the century's most radical vice: social
engineering-- the notion that human beings can be
shovelled around like concrete. But in Hitler's case there
was always an artistic dimension to these Satanic schemes.
64: Wilfried Daim, _Der Mann, der Hitler, die Ideengab_
(Munich 1958).
.

User: "Ken Shaw"
Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial	07 Jul 2004 10:54:30 AM

david ford wrote:

The official English version of Harun Yahya's Holocaust
denial book is online. It is in the form of a PDF
that is ZIPed.

http://www.harunyahya.com/download/download.php?id=13985

Those who are interested might grab a copy since it being
noticed might result in it being removed. Needless
to say, it _is_ a Holocaust denying book.

http://www.harunyahya.com/m_books.php
has more books. He appears to be an Islamic intelligent design person.

David, did you read the book at the link Harlequin posted?

No. Did you?

All 280+ pages and have forwarded it to the ADL.

Excellent.

If you
consider these people to be fellow travelers on ID have you contacted
them about the repugnant claims made in that book?

I don't know what claims are made in that book. I have not contacted
anyone about the claims presented in that book.

The author claims that there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz among a
number of equally outrageous claims.

I'm not an expert on Auschwitz. If you say there were [KS]"gas
chambers at Auschwitz," I'm not going to disagree with you.

Don't you consider it
odd that many supporters of the various forms of creationism insist that
people who accept evolution are nazis

This is news to me.

Don't you read this ng?

I do look at various threads in the newsgroup talk.origins, but
apparently don't read the posts you read.

while Hovind, Harun Yahya and
several other major creationist deny the holocaust and seem supportive
of nazi beliefs?

All creationists of which I am aware oppose the Nazi belief in life
being a struggle, where it is survival of the fittest.
Do you reject that Nazi belief?

That is not a nazi belief.

Oh yes it is.

Don't try and turn ns into a nazi belief.

What is your take on "natural diminution" and "natural selection" as
used by Heydrich below?

That you have fallen to sophistry again.

<snip>

I see your evasion.

I still see your evasion continuing, having observed your snippage
below.

I will not cooperate with your attempts to change subjects through
sophistry.

You fail to state whether you oppose holocaust deniers who are also
supporters of creationists.

You fail to state whether you oppose the Nazi belief in life being a
struggle, where it is survival of the fittest.

A further evasion of the simple question.

What is [KS]"the simple question"?

Do oppose creationist groups that also deny the Holocaust?

Discussing legitimate evidence based calculations on the number of
deaths your other example above is holocaust denial.

Also, are you aware of any [KS]"creationist groups that... deny the
Holocaust"? If "yes," what are some of those groups' names?

Harun Yahya and Creation Science Evangelism to name two.

What in your view constitutes a minimal level of [KS]"oppos[ing]" a
group? Saying merely "I disagree with all of this group's claims"?
Saying merely "I disagree with this group's particular claim that
______________"? Alerting a different, disagreeing group to the
statements of the first group? Implementing a year-long media
campaign denouncing the group?

At minimum I would expect a person to not support that group in writing
or speech, buy from or sell to that group and I certainly wouldn't use
their writings on any other subject as a source.

Or is it that anyone who agrees with you on this issue will be let slide
on issues of at least equal importance?

What are some claims of Harun Yahya with which you think I should not
[KS]"let slide"?

The book at the link:
http://www.harunyahya.com/download/download.php?id=13985

is full of them.

Your evasions and attempts at sophistry are taking you dangerously close
to holocaust denial. You seem to style yourself something of an
intellectual and seem to pride yourself on challenging the status quo
but on this particular subject you would be well served to do enough
research to verify the Holocaust.

I also note that you have still not retracted your supportive statements
of Harun Yahya in the face of clear evidence of the groups anti semitism
and holocaust denial.

[KS]"your supportive statements of Harun Yahya" Remind me, if you
would, of these supposed statements.

This post for starters:
http://tinyurl.com/23m9b

Your claim seems dishonest to me and apparently many other readers of
your post.
<snipped more sophistry>

[KS]"evidence of the groups" What group(s) are you referring to?

Harun Yahya is thought to be more than one person.

I still don't know what group(s) you were referring to.

What is the basis for the belief that [KS]"Harun Yahya is... more than
one person"?

I couldn't find a supporting statement of my contention so I may be
wrong about this. I do know that others besides someone claiming to be
harun yahya emails anyone critical of this "person's" writings which
leads me to believe that this more a group than a lone author.

If you continue to evade answering direct questions on this subject
people will have no choice but to assume you are a supporter of
Holocaust deniers.

<snipped more irrelevancies>

<snipped more sophistry>
I'm not playing your game David. Either publicly distance yourself from
holocaust denial or get used to being treated the way people treat
roadrunner and matt giwer.
Ken
.

User: "david ford"
Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial	12 Jul 2004 06:05:26 AM

Ken Shaw <none.of@your.biz> wrote in message news:<X4VGc.69524$OB3.44658@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...

david ford wrote:

The official English version of Harun Yahya's Holocaust
denial book is online. It is in the form of a PDF
that is ZIPed.

http://www.harunyahya.com/download/download.php?id=13985

Those who are interested might grab a copy since it being
noticed might result in it being removed. Needless
to say, it _is_ a Holocaust denying book.

http://www.harunyahya.com/m_books.php
has more books. He appears to be an Islamic intelligent design person.

David, did you read the book at the link Harlequin posted?

No. Did you?

All 280+ pages and have forwarded it to the ADL.

Excellent.

If you
consider these people to be fellow travelers on ID have you contacted
them about the repugnant claims made in that book?

I don't know what claims are made in that book. I have not contacted
anyone about the claims presented in that book.

The author claims that there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz among a
number of equally outrageous claims.

I'm not an expert on Auschwitz. If you say there were [KS]"gas
chambers at Auschwitz," I'm not going to disagree with you.

Don't you consider it
odd that many supporters of the various forms of creationism insist that
people who accept evolution are nazis

This is news to me.

Don't you read this ng?

I do look at various threads in the newsgroup talk.origins, but
apparently don't read the posts you read.

while Hovind, Harun Yahya and
several other major creationist deny the holocaust and seem supportive
of nazi beliefs?

All creationists of which I am aware oppose the Nazi belief in life
being a struggle, where it is survival of the fittest.
Do you reject that Nazi belief?

That is not a nazi belief.

Oh yes it is.

Don't try and turn ns into a nazi belief.

What is your take on "natural diminution" and "natural selection" as
used by Heydrich below?

That you have fallen to sophistry again.

<snip>

I see your evasion.

I still see your evasion continuing, having observed your snippage
below.

I will not cooperate with your attempts to change subjects through
sophistry.

The application of Darwinian thought to human society, aka "Social
Darwinism," played a key role in shaping the moral climate that made
the Holocaust possible. Many scientists in the 1910s and 1920s,
including many evolutionary biologists and geneticists, were then
propounding "scientific" eugenicist views and evolutionary
ethics/morality that the Nazis built upon in their "scientific" effort
to create a "master race." Also, physicians were required to be
present during the operation of the gas chambers, and medical
personnel were actively involved in Nazi involuntary euthanasia
programs.
I realize you may want to deny this. If you are so inclined, I
suggest you distance yourself from
Darwinian-moral-climate-in-the-Holocaust denial,
Darwinian-"science"-in-the-Holocaust denial, and
Darwinian-"ethics"-in-the-Holocaust denial.

You fail to state whether you oppose holocaust deniers who are also
supporters of creationists.

You fail to state whether you oppose the Nazi belief in life being a
struggle, where it is survival of the fittest.

A further evasion of the simple question.

What is [KS]"the simple question"?

Do oppose creationist groups that also deny the Holocaust?

Discussing legitimate evidence based calculations on the number of
deaths your other example above is holocaust denial.

Perhaps you're saying that "Holocaust denial" consists of:
claiming that the Nazi regime murdered 9 million humans (whereas
[KS]"legitimate evidence based calculations" puts the figure at 12
million.)
Is this your definition of "Holocaust denial"? If not, please explain
what you mean by "Holocaust denial."
Do you believe the Nazis murdered 6 million Jews? If not, how many?

Also, are you aware of any [KS]"creationist groups that... deny the
Holocaust"? If "yes," what are some of those groups' names?

Harun Yahya and Creation Science Evangelism to name two.

What are statements by Yahya and Creation Science Evangelism (CSE)
that [KS]"deny the Holocaust"?

At minimum I would expect a person to not support that group in writing
or speech, buy from or sell to that group and I certainly wouldn't use
their writings on any other subject as a source.

I bought Yahya's 1999 _The Evolution Deceit: The Scientific Collapse
of Darwinism and Its Ideological Background_, 266pp., 8th edition
several months ago. I have referred to the 8th edition:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407021719.289e468d%40posting.google.com
The 8th edition was the source for my claim that Yahya is an Islamic
intelligent design person. Also, the 8th edition was the source that
led me to look at Futuyma, mentioned when I stated the following:
I thank Harun Yahya, whoever or whatever this is, for drawing my
attention to the existence of Islamic intelligent design thought, and
for drawing my attention to a Futuyma comment linking materialism with
Freud's psychologising, Darwin's theory of evolution, and Marx's
materialism. See Futuyma, _Evolutionary Biology: Second Edition_
(Massachusetts: Sinauer Associates, Inc.), 600pp., 2.
I have quoted from the sixth edition:
Yahya and Koster on the use of fear and force
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407030811.4e8cd1bd%40posting.google.com
I will be quoting Yahya comments on materialism from the sixth
edition.
Do you refuse to purchase books by authors that have engaged in
"Holocaust denial"?
In your view, should the ADL refuse to purchase books by authors that
have engaged in "Holocaust denial"?
[KS]"and I certainly wouldn't use their writings on any other subject
as a source." Speaking of an [KS]"other subject" than the Holocaust,
what is the source(s) for your claim that Yahya and CSE are
creationistic? (If you answer "their statements," then you used as a
source for their views their writings on a subject other than the
Holocaust.)
Have you voiced any opposition to ongoing oppression of religious
individuals in present-day atheocracies?

Or is it that anyone who agrees with you on this issue will be let slide
on issues of at least equal importance?

What are some claims of Harun Yahya with which you think I should not
[KS]"let slide"?

The book at the link:
http://www.harunyahya.com/download/download.php?id=13985

is full of them.

Your evasions and attempts at sophistry are taking you dangerously close
to holocaust denial. You seem to style yourself something of an
intellectual and seem to pride yourself on challenging the status quo
but on this particular subject you would be well served to do enough
research to verify the Holocaust.

I also note that you have still not retracted your supportive statements
of Harun Yahya in the face of clear evidence of the groups anti semitism
and holocaust denial.

[KS]"your supportive statements of Harun Yahya" Remind me, if you
would, of these supposed statements.

This post for starters:
http://tinyurl.com/23m9b

Your claim seems dishonest to me and apparently many other readers of
your post.

Think what you like.
Here are some more thankings of people, besides the thanking of you I
already presented:
I once told Howard Hershey, [df]"I am glad to hear you say it."
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0401291823.78264831%40posting.google.com
I thanked J. Pieret.
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0406131103.6a06acba%40posting.google.com
I now thank you for prompting me to present the Weikart below.
If you wish to view my remarks as [KS]"supportive statements of"
Yahya, Futuyma, Howard Hershey, J. Pieret, and yourself, be my guest.
If you wish to delude yourself that [KS]"many other readers" view my
remarks as [KS]"supportive statements of" Yahya, Futuyma, Howard
Hershey, J. Pieret, and yourself, be my guest.

Your evasion continues.

[KS]"evidence of the groups" What group(s) are you referring to?

Harun Yahya is thought to be more than one person.

I still don't know what group(s) you were referring to.

What is the basis for the belief that [KS]"Harun Yahya is... more than
one person"?

I couldn't find a supporting statement of my contention so I may be
wrong about this.

I find it difficult to believe that you could be wrong about anything.

I do know that others besides someone claiming to be
harun yahya emails anyone critical of this "person's" writings which
leads me to believe that this more a group than a lone author.

In cyberspace, anyone can claim to be anyone.
In cyberspace, multiple people can claim to be some one other person.

If you continue to evade answering direct questions on this subject
people will have no choice but to assume you are a supporter of
Holocaust deniers.

<snipped more irrelevancies>

<snipped more sophistry>

I'm not playing your game David. Either publicly distance yourself from
holocaust denial or get used to being treated the way people treat
roadrunner and matt giwer.

It can be hard to distance one's self from something when one doesn't
know what exactly that something is.
I invite you to [KS]"publicly distance" yourself from the Nazi belief
in Darwinian natural selection.
[df]"the Nazi belief in life being a struggle, where it is survival of
the fittest. Do you reject that Nazi belief?" [KS]"That is not a
nazi belief." [KS]"Don't try and turn ns into a nazi belief."
How do you interpret the 1937 Nazi statement, "In the last few
decades, mankind has sinned terribly against the law of natural
selection."?
Weikart, Richard. 2004. _From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary
Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in Germany_ (USA: Palgrave
Macmillan), 312pp. On 226, the second to last paragraph of the
chapter "Hitler's Ethic":
When the Nazis finally implemented their "euthanasia"
program by Hitler's decree in 1939 after World War II
began, they recruited many physicians with views on social
Darwinism, eugenics, and racism similar to those of Rudin,
Lenz, Fischer, Ploetz, and other eugenicists we have
already discussed. Nazi propaganda films, such as the
documentary _Hereditary Illness_ (1936) and the feature
film _I Accuse_ (1941), wooed Germans to the idea of
euthanasia in the 1930s and 1940s (American eugenicists
circulated some of these films in the United States, too, in
the 1930s). If the title of one of these films, _All Life Is
Struggle_ (1937), is not Darwinian enough, then the
commentary made it explicit. While showing a disfigured
handicapped person, the narrator in _Victim of the Past_
(1937) declared, "Everything in the natural world that is
weak for life will ineluctably be destroyed. In the last few
decades, mankind has sinned terribly against the law of
natural selection. We haven't just maintained life unworthy
of life, we have even allowed it to multiply. The
descendants of these sick people look like this!"^62 Over
70,000 people perished in the "euthanasia" program at the
hands of physicians, who were willing participants,
because they were committed to a racist eugenics ideology
that the Nazis favored.^63
62: Michael Burleigh, _Death and Deliverance_ (Cambridge,
1994), ch. 6; quote at 189.
63: Henry Friedlander, "Physicians as Killer in Nazi Germany:
Hadamar, Treblinka, and Auschwitz," and Michael H. Kater,
"Criminal Physicians in the Third Reich: Toward a Group
Portrait," in _Medicine and Medical Ethics in Nazi Germany:
Origins, Practices, Legacies_, ed. Nicosia, Francis R. and
Jonathan Huener (New York, 2002), 59�92; Henry Friedlander,
_The Origins of Nazi Genocide: From Euthanasia to the Final
Solution_ (Chapel Hill, NC, 1995).
For Further Reading
[Weikart]"If the title of one of these films, _All Life Is
Struggle_ (1937), is not Darwinian enough, then the
commentary made it explicit."
1940 Nazi film "All Life is Struggle" embraced Darwinian
natural selection
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407042043.1c2ccf1f%40posting.google.com
about Weikart's new book
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407030531.19253d93%40posting.google.com
.

User: "Ken Shaw"
Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial	12 Jul 2004 10:41:50 AM

david ford wrote:

Ken Shaw <none.of@your.biz> wrote in message news:<X4VGc.69524$OB3.44658@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...

david ford wrote:

The official English version of Harun Yahya's Holocaust
denial book is online. It is in the form of a PDF
that is ZIPed.

http://www.harunyahya.com/download/download.php?id=13985

Those who are interested might grab a copy since it being
noticed might result in it being removed. Needless
to say, it _is_ a Holocaust denying book.

http://www.harunyahya.com/m_books.php
has more books. He appears to be an Islamic intelligent design person.

David, did you read the book at the link Harlequin posted?

No. Did you?

All 280+ pages and have forwarded it to the ADL.

Excellent.

If you
consider these people to be fellow travelers on ID have you contacted
them about the repugnant claims made in that book?

I don't know what claims are made in that book. I have not contacted
anyone about the claims presented in that book.

The author claims that there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz among a
number of equally outrageous claims.

I'm not an expert on Auschwitz. If you say there were [KS]"gas
chambers at Auschwitz," I'm not going to disagree with you.

Don't you consider it
odd that many supporters of the various forms of creationism insist that
people who accept evolution are nazis

This is news to me.

Don't you read this ng?

I do look at various threads in the newsgroup talk.origins, but
apparently don't read the posts you read.

while Hovind, Harun Yahya and
several other major creationist deny the holocaust and seem supportive
of nazi beliefs?

All creationists of which I am aware oppose the Nazi belief in life
being a struggle, where it is survival of the fittest.
Do you reject that Nazi belief?

That is not a nazi belief.

Oh yes it is.

Don't try and turn ns into a nazi belief.

What is your take on "natural diminution" and "natural selection" as
used by Heydrich below?

That you have fallen to sophistry again.

<snip>

I see your evasion.

I still see your evasion continuing, having observed your snippage
below.

I will not cooperate with your attempts to change subjects through
sophistry.

<snippage of yet another attempt to change subject>
You just don't get it do you. One subject in this subthread. That
subject is your support for a creationist group that denies the Holocaust.

You fail to state whether you oppose holocaust deniers who are also
supporters of creationists.

You fail to state whether you oppose the Nazi belief in life being a
struggle, where it is survival of the fittest.

A further evasion of the simple question.

What is [KS]"the simple question"?

Do oppose creationist groups that also deny the Holocaust?

Discussing legitimate evidence based calculations on the number of
deaths your other example above is holocaust denial.

Rewrite above paragraph into something sensible.
Discussing legitimate evidence based calculations on the number of
deaths isn't Holocaust denial, your other example above is holocaust denial.
<snipped stuff based on my poorly edited statement>

Also, are you aware of any [KS]"creationist groups that... deny the
Holocaust"? If "yes," what are some of those groups' names?

Harun Yahya and Creation Science Evangelism to name two.

What are statements by Yahya and Creation Science Evangelism (CSE)
that [KS]"deny the Holocaust"?

Read the "Holocaust Hoax" by Harun Yahya for evidence of that
person/groups holocaust denial. Hovind is an anti-Semite who is very coy
about his statements in this area but I refer you to his use of "The
Protocols of the Elders of Zion".

At minimum I would expect a person to not support that group in writing
or speech, buy from or sell to that group and I certainly wouldn't use
their writings on any other subject as a source.

I bought Yahya's 1999 _The Evolution Deceit: The Scientific Collapse
of Darwinism and Its Ideological Background_, 266pp., 8th edition
several months ago. I have referred to the 8th edition:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407021719.289e468d%40posting.google.com

The 8th edition was the source for my claim that Yahya is an Islamic
intelligent design person. Also, the 8th edition was the source that
led me to look at Futuyma, mentioned when I stated the following:
I thank Harun Yahya, whoever or whatever this is, for drawing my
attention to the existence of Islamic intelligent design thought, and
for drawing my attention to a Futuyma comment linking materialism with
Freud's psychologising, Darwin's theory of evolution, and Marx's
materialism. See Futuyma, _Evolutionary Biology: Second Edition_
(Massachusetts: Sinauer Associates, Inc.), 600pp., 2.

I have quoted from the sixth edition:
Yahya and Koster on the use of fear and force
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407030811.4e8cd1bd%40posting.google.com
I will be quoting Yahya comments on materialism from the sixth
edition.

Do you refuse to purchase books by authors that have engaged in
"Holocaust denial"?
In your view, should the ADL refuse to purchase books by authors that
have engaged in "Holocaust denial"?

[KS]"and I certainly wouldn't use their writings on any other subject
as a source." Speaking of an [KS]"other subject" than the Holocaust,
what is the source(s) for your claim that Yahya and CSE are
creationistic? (If you answer "their statements," then you used as a
source for their views their writings on a subject other than the
Holocaust.)

Clever attempt at sophistry noted but it remains sophistry. I will not
quote from either source but have referred you to free online sources.

Have you voiced any opposition to ongoing oppression of religious
individuals in present-day atheocracies?

More subject changing noted but I'll answer this one.
I oppose the existence of both North Korean, Chinese and Cuban
governments which to the best of my knowledge are the only atheist
governments today. Do you oppose the oppression of atheists by theocracies?

Or is it that anyone who agrees with you on this issue will be let slide
on issues of at least equal importance?

What are some claims of Harun Yahya with which you think I should not
[KS]"let slide"?

The book at the link:
http://www.harunyahya.com/download/download.php?id=13985

is full of them.

Your evasions and attempts at sophistry are taking you dangerously close
to holocaust denial. You seem to style yourself something of an
intellectual and seem to pride yourself on challenging the status quo
but on this particular subject you would be well served to do enough
research to verify the Holocaust.

I also note that you have still not retracted your supportive statements
of Harun Yahya in the face of clear evidence of the groups anti semitism
and holocaust denial.

[KS]"your supportive statements of Harun Yahya" Remind me, if you
would, of these supposed statements.

This post for starters:
http://tinyurl.com/23m9b

Your claim seems dishonest to me and apparently many other readers of
your post.

Think what you like.
Here are some more thankings of people, besides the thanking of you I
already presented:

I once told Howard Hershey, [df]"I am glad to hear you say it."
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0401291823.78264831%40posting.google.com

I thanked J. Pieret.
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0406131103.6a06acba%40posting.google.com

I now thank you for prompting me to present the Weikart below.

If you wish to view my remarks as [KS]"supportive statements of"
Yahya, Futuyma, Howard Hershey, J. Pieret, and yourself, be my guest.
If you wish to delude yourself that [KS]"many other readers" view my
remarks as [KS]"supportive statements of" Yahya, Futuyma, Howard
Hershey, J. Pieret, and yourself, be my guest.

Your evasion continues.

Directly answer the question I originally asked and have repeated
throughout this subthread and then I might discuss some other point but
until then I won't cooperate with you attempts to change the subject.

[KS]"evidence of the groups" What group(s) are you referring to?

Harun Yahya is thought to be more than one person.

I still don't know what group(s) you were referring to.

What is the basis for the belief that [KS]"Harun Yahya is... more than
one person"?

I couldn't find a supporting statement of my contention so I may be
wrong about this.

I find it difficult to believe that you could be wrong about anything.

Sarcasm is such an effective debating technique.

I do know that others besides someone claiming to be
harun yahya emails anyone critical of this "person's" writings which
leads me to believe that this more a group than a lone author.

In cyberspace, anyone can claim to be anyone.
In cyberspace, multiple people can claim to be some one other person.

If you continue to evade answering direct questions on this subject
people will have no choice but to assume you are a supporter of
Holocaust deniers.

<snipped more irrelevancies>

<snipped more sophistry>

I'm not playing your game David. Either publicly distance yourself from
holocaust denial or get used to being treated the way people treat
roadrunner and matt giwer.

It can be hard to distance one's self from something when one doesn't
know what exactly that something is.

If you don't know what Holocaust Denial is and that Harun Yahya is a
Holocaust Denier based on the book "Holocaust Hoax presented on
his/their website then you are either of subnormal intellect or being
intentionally evasive.
<snipped yet more sophistry>
Still not going to let you change the subject.
Ken
.

User: "david ford"
Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial	26 Jul 2004 10:14:04 AM

Ken Shaw <none.of@your.biz> wrote in message news:<KnyIc.239352$Gx4.38789@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...

david ford wrote:

Ken Shaw <none.of@your.biz> wrote in message news:<X4VGc.69524$OB3.44658@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...

david ford wrote:

The official English version of Harun Yahya's Holocaust
denial book is online. It is in the form of a PDF
that is ZIPed.

http://www.harunyahya.com/download/download.php?id=13985

Those who are interested might grab a copy since it being
noticed might result in it being removed. Needless
to say, it _is_ a Holocaust denying book.

http://www.harunyahya.com/m_books.php
has more books. He appears to be an Islamic intelligent design person.

David, did you read the book at the link Harlequin posted?

No. Did you?

All 280+ pages and have forwarded it to the ADL.

Excellent.

If you
consider these people to be fellow travelers on ID have you contacted
them about the repugnant claims made in that book?

I don't know what claims are made in that book. I have not contacted
anyone about the claims presented in that book.

The author claims that there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz among a
number of equally outrageous claims.

I'm not an expert on Auschwitz. If you say there were [KS]"gas
chambers at Auschwitz," I'm not going to disagree with you.

Don't you consider it
odd that many supporters of the various forms of creationism insist that
people who accept evolution are nazis

This is news to me.

Don't you read this ng?

I do look at various threads in the newsgroup talk.origins, but
apparently don't read the posts you read.

while Hovind, Harun Yahya and
several other major creationist deny the holocaust and seem supportive
of nazi beliefs?

All creationists of which I am aware oppose the Nazi belief in life
being a struggle, where it is survival of the fittest.
Do you reject that Nazi belief?

That is not a nazi belief.

Oh yes it is.

Don't try and turn ns into a nazi belief.

What is your take on "natural diminution" and "natural selection" as
used by Heydrich below?

That you have fallen to sophistry again.

<snip>

I see your evasion.

I still see your evasion continuing, having observed your snippage
below.

I will not cooperate with your attempts to change subjects through
sophistry.

I note your evasion.

You just don't get it do you.

I guess not.

One subject in this subthread.

Your support for the Nazi belief in natural selection.

That subject is your support for a creationist group that denies the

Holocaust.
[KS]"Your support for" I disagree with this characterization.
Which [KS]"creationist group" do you refer to?
I have reverted to assuming that Yahya is just one man, unless you or
another can present some persuasive evidence to the contrary. For a
while there, I thought you knew what you were talking about when you
said [KS]"Harun Yahya is thought to be more than one person."

You fail to state whether you oppose holocaust deniers who are also
supporters of creationists.

You fail to state whether you oppose the Nazi belief in life being a
struggle, where it is survival of the fittest.

A further evasion of the simple question.

What is [KS]"the simple question"?

Do oppose creationist groups that also deny the Holocaust?

Discussing legitimate evidence based calculations on the number of
deaths your other example above is holocaust denial.

Rewrite above paragraph into something sensible.

Discussing legitimate evidence based calculations on the number of
deaths isn't Holocaust denial, your other example above is holocaust denial.

Remind me, what is your definition of "holocaust denial"?

Also, are you aware of any [KS]"creationist groups that... deny the
Holocaust"? If "yes," what are some of those groups' names?

Harun Yahya and Creation Science Evangelism to name two.

What are statements by Yahya and Creation Science Evangelism (CSE)
that [KS]"deny the Holocaust"?

Read the "Holocaust Hoax" by Harun Yahya for evidence of that
person/groups holocaust denial.

If and when you present what you mean when you speak of "Holocaust
denial," I could theoretically read the Yahya book you mention and see
if it engages in "Holocaust denial" as you conceive it. Perhaps the
problem with your immense delay in describing what exactly is meant by
[KS]"deny the Holocaust" stems from your lack of a definition for
"Holocaust denial." Perhaps it is something you "know"/imagine to be
present when you see it. Somewhat like pornography.

Hovind is an anti-Semite who is very coy
about his statements in this area but I refer you to his use of "The
Protocols of the Elders of Zion".

[KS]"Hovind is an anti-Semite" What is some evidence in support of
this claim?-- please present it.
[KS]"who is very coy about his statements in this area" Please
present one of the clearest statements you're aware of in which you
think Hovind engages in "Holocaust denial."
As you may know, some have disagreed with my reading of Dennett as
advocating that Baptists be caged for spreading to their children the
belief that Genesis is literally true. Perhaps I will disagree with
your reading of Hovind after you've presented some of his statements
that you think are anti-Semitic and statements of his that you think
are Holocaust-denying.

At minimum I would expect a person to not support that group in writing
or speech, buy from or sell to that group and I certainly wouldn't use
their writings on any other subject as a source.

I believe that the above answers your [KS]"simple question" of [KS]"Do
[you, df] oppose creationist groups that also deny the Holocaust?"
where you consider Yahya a "Holocaust denier" and where a minimal
level of [KS]"oppos[ing] is characterized by you in this manner:
[KS]"At minimum I would expect a person to not support that group in
writing or speech, buy from or sell to that group and I certainly
wouldn't use their writings on any other subject as a source."

Do you refuse to purchase books by authors that have engaged in
"Holocaust denial"?
In your view, should the ADL refuse to purchase books by authors that
have engaged in "Holocaust denial"?

[KS]"and I certainly wouldn't use their writings on any other subject
as a source." Speaking of an [KS]"other subject" than the Holocaust,
what is the source(s) for your claim that Yahya and CSE are
creationistic? (If you answer "their statements," then you used as a
source for their views their writings on a subject other than the
Holocaust.)

Clever attempt at sophistry noted but it remains sophistry. I will not
quote from either source but have referred you to free online sources.

AFAIK, you haven't referred me to any [KS]"free online sources"
related to the "Holocaust denial" when it comes to CSE or Hovind.
Please do so now, or present again your reference.

Have you voiced any opposition to ongoing oppression of religious
individuals in present-day atheocracies?

More subject changing noted but I'll answer this one.

I oppose the existence of both North Korean, Chinese and Cuban
governments which to the best of my knowledge are the only atheist governments today. Do you oppose the oppression of atheists by theocracies?

There's also Vietnam. The atheocracy of China has its thumb on over
one billion people.
I oppose the existence of theocratic governments which engage in the
[KS]"oppression of atheists," where "oppression" has the sense used in
[df]"oppression of religious individuals in present-day atheocracies."
Are you aware of any such theocratic governments in existence today?

Or is it that anyone who agrees with you on this issue will be let slide on issues of at least equal importance?

What are some claims of Harun Yahya with which you think I should not[KS]"let slide"?

The book at the link:

http://www.harunyahya.com/download/download.php?id=13985

is full of them.

Your evasions and attempts at sophistry are taking you dangerously close to holocaust denial. You seem to style yourself something of an intellectual and seem to pride yourself on challenging the status quo but on this particular subject you would be well served to do enough research to verify the Holocaust.
I also note that you have still not retracted your supportive statements of Harun Yahya in the face of clear evidence of the groups anti Semitism and holocaust