| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Orac" |
| Date: |
03 Jul 2004 05:46:43 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial |
In article <MkGFc.56582$OB3.28425@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Ken Shaw <none.of@your.biz> wrote:
david ford wrote:
All creationists of which I am aware oppose the Nazi belief in life
being a struggle, where it is survival of the fittest.
Do you reject that Nazi belief?
That is not a nazi belief. Don't try and turn ns into a nazi belief.
You fail to state whether you oppose holocaust deniers who are also
supporters of creationists.
Indeed. He certainly hurts his "case" by referencing such books. The
book referenced is entitled "The Holocaust Hoax." A brief skimming of it
reveals is full of the sorts of lies and distortions about the Holocaust
that I've been battling on alt.revisionism for for at least six years.
Or is it that anyone who agrees with you on this issue will be let slide
on issues of at least equal importance?
What are some claims of Harun Yahya with which you think I should not
[KS]"let slide"?
The book at the link:
http://www.harunyahya.com/download/download.php?id=13985
is full of them.
Indeed it is, sadly. Run-of-the-mill Holocaust denial. It's not even
that creative a job of it, as far as I can tell.
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"
.
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial |
05 Jul 2004 05:52:53 AM |
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Orac <orac@mac.com> wrote in message news:<orac-A44FC6.18501503072004@news4-ge1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
In article <MkGFc.56582$OB3.28425@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Ken Shaw <none.of@your.biz> wrote:
david ford wrote:
All creationists of which I am aware oppose the Nazi belief in life
being a struggle, where it is survival of the fittest.
Do you reject that Nazi belief?
That is not a nazi belief. Don't try and turn ns into a nazi belief.
You fail to state whether you oppose holocaust deniers who are also
supporters of creationists.
Indeed. He certainly hurts his "case" by referencing such books. The
book referenced is entitled "The Holocaust Hoax."
When did I supposedly do this [O]"referencing"?
[O]"hurts his 'case' by referencing such books." Did I hurt my case
by referencing the following?:
1942 Heydrich: "The Jews... no doubt a large part of them will be
eliminated by natural diminution. The survivors, the hardiest among
them, must be given an appropriate treatment, because they represent a
natural selection...."
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407032023.243f5883%40posting.google.com
1940 Nazi film "All Life is Struggle" embracing Darwinian natural
selection
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407042043.1c2ccf1f%40posting.google.com
A brief skimming of it
reveals is full of the sorts of lies and distortions about the Holocaust
that I've been battling on alt.revisionism for for at least six years.
I've been battling [O]"lies and distortions" in talk.origins for about
7 years.
Or is it that anyone who agrees with you on this issue will be let slide
on issues of at least equal importance?
What are some claims of Harun Yahya with which you think I should not
[KS]"let slide"?
The book at the link:
http://www.harunyahya.com/download/download.php?id=13985
is full of them.
Indeed it is, sadly. Run-of-the-mill Holocaust denial. It's not even
that creative a job of it, as far as I can tell.
.
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| User: "Lieutenant Kizhe Katson" |
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| Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial |
05 Jul 2004 12:32:38 PM |
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(david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0407050256.447e5fe1@posting.google.com>...
Orac <orac@mac.com> wrote in message news:<orac-A44FC6.18501503072004@news4-ge1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
[about Harun Yahya Holcaust denial book]
A brief skimming of it
reveals is full of the sorts of lies and distortions about the Holocaust
that I've been battling on alt.revisionism for for at least six years.
I've been battling [O]"lies and distortions" in talk.origins for about
7 years.
Battling *using* lies and distortions would be more like it, David.
-- Kizhé
.
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial |
05 Jul 2004 10:18:43 PM |
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(Lieutenant Kizhe Katson) wrote in message news:<47b867ea.0407050936.5956afb2@posting.google.com>...
dford3@gl.umbc.edu (david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0407050256.447e5fe1@posting.google.com>...
Orac <orac@mac.com> wrote in message news:<orac-A44FC6.18501503072004@news4-ge1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
[about Harun Yahya Holcaust denial book]
A brief skimming of it
reveals is full of the sorts of lies and distortions about the Holocaust
that I've been battling on alt.revisionism for for at least six years.
I've been battling [O]"lies and distortions" in talk.origins for about
7 years.
Battling *using* lies and distortions would be more like it, David.
What are 3 of the "lies and distortions" you have in mind?
.
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| User: "R.Schenck" |
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| Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial |
05 Jul 2004 11:23:55 PM |
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(david ford) on 05 Jul 2004 posted
lt_kizhe@yahoo.ca (Lieutenant Kizhe Katson) wrote in message
news:<47b867ea.0407050936.5956afb2@posting.google.com>...
(david ford) wrote in message
news:<b1c67abe.0407050256.447e5fe1@posting.google.com>...
Orac <orac@mac.com> wrote in message
news:<orac-A44FC6.18501503072004@news4-ge1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
[about Harun Yahya Holcaust denial book]
A brief skimming of it
reveals is full of the sorts of lies and distortions about the
Holocaust that I've been battling on alt.revisionism for for at
least six years.
I've been battling [O]"lies and distortions" in talk.origins for
about 7 years.
Battling *using* lies and distortions would be more like it, David.
What are 3 of the "lies and distortions" you have in mind?
That darwin had something to do with the holocaust perhaps? That
creationism is any sort of alternative to evolution?
.
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| User: "Lieutenant Kizhe Katson" |
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| Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial |
06 Jul 2004 08:40:58 AM |
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(david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0407051922.112bcf68@posting.google.com>...
lt_kizhe@yahoo.ca (Lieutenant Kizhe Katson) wrote in message news:<47b867ea.0407050936.5956afb2@posting.google.com>...
(david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0407050256.447e5fe1@posting.google.com>...
Orac <orac@mac.com> wrote in message news:<orac-A44FC6.18501503072004@news4-ge1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
[about Harun Yahya Holcaust denial book]
A brief skimming of it
reveals is full of the sorts of lies and distortions about the Holocaust
that I've been battling on alt.revisionism for for at least six years.
I've been battling [O]"lies and distortions" in talk.origins for about
7 years.
Battling *using* lies and distortions would be more like it, David.
What are 3 of the "lies and distortions" you have in mind?
How did I know you were going to ask that? Your claim that Dennett
wants to imprison Baptists is merely the most recent.
-- Kizhé
.
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial |
06 Jul 2004 08:40:01 PM |
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(Lieutenant Kizhe Katson) wrote in message news:<47b867ea.0407060545.40d5fc36@posting.google.com>...
dford3@gl.umbc.edu (david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0407051922.112bcf68@posting.google.com>...
(Lieutenant Kizhe Katson) wrote in message news:<47b867ea.0407050936.5956afb2@posting.google.com>...
dford3@gl.umbc.edu (david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0407050256.447e5fe1@posting.google.com>...
Orac <orac@mac.com> wrote in message news:<orac-A44FC6.18501503072004@news4-ge1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
[about Harun Yahya Holcaust denial book]
A brief skimming of it
reveals is full of the sorts of lies and distortions about the Holocaust
that I've been battling on alt.revisionism for for at least six years.
I've been battling [O]"lies and distortions" in talk.origins for about
7 years.
Battling *using* lies and distortions would be more like it, David.
What are 3 of the "lies and distortions" you have in mind?
How did I know you were going to ask that?
For your past experience.
Also, we humans can recognize certain things as being the product of
intelligence based simply on our past experience with things we know
to have been intelligently designed. Capturing an intelligent
designer(s) of biology is not necessary for us to conclude that
biology was the product of intelligence.
Your claim that Dennett
wants to imprison Baptists is merely the most recent.
If you would, do a "control - f"/ "find" for: solvent
http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/ceqnppe1.html
Supposing that the Ronald Numbers quotation in question is legitimate,
would you consider Numbers to have presented "lies and distortions" of
Dennett's statements about caging certain individuals?
Lurkers, my comments about Dennett's remarks appear in
Dennett: Baptists ought to be put in cages
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0406241903.4c152fe7%40posting.google.com
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0406280534.e792690%40posting.google.com
.
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| User: "Lieutenant Kizhe Katson" |
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| Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial |
07 Jul 2004 08:54:10 AM |
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(david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0407061744.63295a8c@posting.google.com>...
lt_kizhe@yahoo.ca (Lieutenant Kizhe Katson) wrote in message news:<47b867ea.0407060545.40d5fc36@posting.google.com>...
(david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0407051922.112bcf68@posting.google.com>...
lt_kizhe@yahoo.ca (Lieutenant Kizhe Katson) wrote in message news:<47b867ea.0407050936.5956afb2@posting.google.com>...
(david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0407050256.447e5fe1@posting.google.com>...
Orac <orac@mac.com> wrote in message news:<orac-A44FC6.18501503072004@news4-ge1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
[about Harun Yahya Holcaust denial book]
A brief skimming of it
reveals is full of the sorts of lies and distortions about the Holocaust
that I've been battling on alt.revisionism for for at least six years.
I've been battling [O]"lies and distortions" in talk.origins for about
7 years.
Battling *using* lies and distortions would be more like it, David.
What are 3 of the "lies and distortions" you have in mind?
How did I know you were going to ask that?
For your past experience.
Also, we humans can recognize certain things as being the product of
intelligence based simply on our past experience with things we know
to have been intelligently designed. Capturing an intelligent
Well, that's odd because I do not recognize your posts as being the
product of intelligence <ba-dump-ting>. In fact, postulating
intelligence on your part had nothing to do with it. Induction based
on "past experience" was plenty: you're getting as predictable as
gravity. So I have no idea what this riff on "intelligent designers"
has to do with anything.
designer(s) of biology is not necessary for us to conclude that
biology was the product of intelligence.
Your claim that Dennett
wants to imprison Baptists is merely the most recent.
If you would, do a "control - f"/ "find" for: solvent
http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/ceqnppe1.html
Supposing that the Ronald Numbers quotation in question is legitimate,
would you consider Numbers to have presented "lies and distortions" of
Dennett's statements about caging certain individuals?
Definitely distorted, yes. Perhaps Numbers spent too much time
reading Creationists.
Lurkers, my comments about Dennett's remarks appear in
Dennett: Baptists ought to be put in cages
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0406241903.4c152fe7%40posting.google.com
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0406280534.e792690%40posting.google.com
-- Kizhé
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| User: "AC" |
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| Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial |
06 Jul 2004 12:01:33 AM |
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On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 03:18:43 +0000 (UTC),
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
lt_kizhe@yahoo.ca (Lieutenant Kizhe Katson) wrote in message news:<47b867ea.0407050936.5956afb2@posting.google.com>...
dford3@gl.umbc.edu (david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0407050256.447e5fe1@posting.google.com>...
Orac <orac@mac.com> wrote in message news:<orac-A44FC6.18501503072004@news4-ge1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
[about Harun Yahya Holcaust denial book]
A brief skimming of it
reveals is full of the sorts of lies and distortions about the Holocaust
that I've been battling on alt.revisionism for for at least six years.
I've been battling [O]"lies and distortions" in talk.origins for about
7 years.
Battling *using* lies and distortions would be more like it, David.
What are 3 of the "lies and distortions" you have in mind?
The top one that comes to mind is your strawman of methodological naturalism
which you tout as the "blind watchmaker hypothesis". I fail to see how an
intellectually honest person would play such a game, so I've come to the
conclusion that you are not honest.
There's also your quote-mining and hunting out quotes, some 80 years old.
--
Aaron Clausen
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
.
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial |
06 Jul 2004 08:48:04 PM |
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AC <mightymartianca@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<slrncekcp6.ktd.mightymartianca@mp1.alberni.net>...
On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 03:18:43 +0000 (UTC),
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
lt_kizhe@yahoo.ca (Lieutenant Kizhe Katson) wrote in message news:<47b867ea.0407050936.5956afb2@posting.google.com>...
dford3@gl.umbc.edu (david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0407050256.447e5fe1@posting.google.com>...
Orac <orac@mac.com> wrote in message news:<orac-A44FC6.18501503072004@news4-ge1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
[about Harun Yahya Holcaust denial book]
A brief skimming of it
reveals is full of the sorts of lies and distortions about the Holocaust
that I've been battling on alt.revisionism for for at least six years.
I've been battling [O]"lies and distortions" in talk.origins for about
7 years.
Battling *using* lies and distortions would be more like it, David.
What are 3 of the "lies and distortions" you have in mind?
The top one that comes to mind is your strawman of methodological naturalism
which you tout as the "blind watchmaker hypothesis". I fail to see how an
intellectually honest person would play such a game, so I've come to the
conclusion that you are not honest.
[AC]"your strawman of" In your view, what should I be attacking
instead of my supposed strawman? Also, I don't know what you mean by
[AC]"methodological naturalism."
There's also your quote-mining and hunting out quotes, some 80 years old.
What is the meaning of [AC]"quote-mining"?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but historians routinely seek out and present
others' statements, some far more than 80 years old. Do you consider
historians to be engaging in "lies and distortions" simply by virtue
of the fact that they present others' statements, some far more than
80 years old?
.
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| User: "Richard Forrest" |
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| Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial |
07 Jul 2004 04:08:10 AM |
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(david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0407061752.7f6a3c32@posting.google.com>...
AC <mightymartianca@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<slrncekcp6.ktd.mightymartianca@mp1.alberni.net>...
On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 03:18:43 +0000 (UTC),
david ford < > wrote:
lt_kizhe@yahoo.ca (Lieutenant Kizhe Katson) wrote in message news:<47b867ea.0407050936.5956afb2@posting.google.com>...
(david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0407050256.447e5fe1@posting.google.com>...
Orac <orac@mac.com> wrote in message news:<orac-A44FC6.18501503072004@news4-ge1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
[about Harun Yahya Holcaust denial book]
A brief skimming of it
reveals is full of the sorts of lies and distortions about the Holocaust
that I've been battling on alt.revisionism for for at least six years.
I've been battling [O]"lies and distortions" in talk.origins for about
7 years.
Battling *using* lies and distortions would be more like it, David.
What are 3 of the "lies and distortions" you have in mind?
The top one that comes to mind is your strawman of methodological naturalism
which you tout as the "blind watchmaker hypothesis". I fail to see how an
intellectually honest person would play such a game, so I've come to the
conclusion that you are not honest.
[AC]"your strawman of" In your view, what should I be attacking
instead of my supposed strawman? Also, I don't know what you mean by
[AC]"methodological naturalism."
There's also your quote-mining and hunting out quotes, some 80 years old.
What is the meaning of [AC]"quote-mining"?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but historians routinely seek out and present
others' statements, some far more than 80 years old. Do you consider
historians to be engaging in "lies and distortions" simply by virtue
of the fact that they present others' statements, some far more than
80 years old?
Historians may. Scientists in general don't. 80 year old material is
unlikely to be relevant.
RF
.
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| User: "Richard Forrest" |
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| Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial |
07 Jul 2004 04:08:26 AM |
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(david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0407061752.7f6a3c32@posting.google.com>...
AC <mightymartianca@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<slrncekcp6.ktd.mightymartianca@mp1.alberni.net>...
On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 03:18:43 +0000 (UTC),
david ford < > wrote:
lt_kizhe@yahoo.ca (Lieutenant Kizhe Katson) wrote in message news:<47b867ea.0407050936.5956afb2@posting.google.com>...
(david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0407050256.447e5fe1@posting.google.com>...
Orac <orac@mac.com> wrote in message news:<orac-A44FC6.18501503072004@news4-ge1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
[about Harun Yahya Holcaust denial book]
A brief skimming of it
reveals is full of the sorts of lies and distortions about the Holocaust
that I've been battling on alt.revisionism for for at least six years.
I've been battling [O]"lies and distortions" in talk.origins for about
7 years.
Battling *using* lies and distortions would be more like it, David.
What are 3 of the "lies and distortions" you have in mind?
The top one that comes to mind is your strawman of methodological naturalism
which you tout as the "blind watchmaker hypothesis". I fail to see how an
intellectually honest person would play such a game, so I've come to the
conclusion that you are not honest.
[AC]"your strawman of" In your view, what should I be attacking
instead of my supposed strawman? Also, I don't know what you mean by
[AC]"methodological naturalism."
There's also your quote-mining and hunting out quotes, some 80 years old.
What is the meaning of [AC]"quote-mining"?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but historians routinely seek out and present
others' statements, some far more than 80 years old. Do you consider
historians to be engaging in "lies and distortions" simply by virtue
of the fact that they present others' statements, some far more than
80 years old?
Historians may. Scientists in general don't. 80 year old material is
unlikely to be relevant.
RF
.
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| User: "maff" |
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| Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial |
07 Jul 2004 03:09:35 AM |
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(david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0407061752.7f6a3c32@posting.google.com>...
AC <mightymartianca@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<slrncekcp6.ktd.mightymartianca@mp1.alberni.net>...
On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 03:18:43 +0000 (UTC),
david ford < > wrote:
lt_kizhe@yahoo.ca (Lieutenant Kizhe Katson) wrote in message news:<47b867ea.0407050936.5956afb2@posting.google.com>...
(david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0407050256.447e5fe1@posting.google.com>...
Orac <orac@mac.com> wrote in message news:<orac-A44FC6.18501503072004@news4-ge1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
[about Harun Yahya Holcaust denial book]
A brief skimming of it
reveals is full of the sorts of lies and distortions about the Holocaust
that I've been battling on alt.revisionism for for at least six years.
I've been battling [O]"lies and distortions" in talk.origins for about
7 years.
Battling *using* lies and distortions would be more like it, David.
What are 3 of the "lies and distortions" you have in mind?
The top one that comes to mind is your strawman of methodological naturalism
which you tout as the "blind watchmaker hypothesis". I fail to see how an
intellectually honest person would play such a game, so I've come to the
conclusion that you are not honest.
[AC]"your strawman of" In your view, what should I be attacking
instead of my supposed strawman? Also, I don't know what you mean by
[AC]"methodological naturalism."
Try http://snipurl.com/7kox
There's also your quote-mining and hunting out quotes, some 80 years old.
What is the meaning of [AC]"quote-mining"?
It means bearing false witness, Christian fascist, David Ford.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but historians routinely seek out and present
others' statements, some far more than 80 years old. Do you consider
historians to be engaging in "lies and distortions" simply by virtue
of the fact that they present others' statements, some far more than
80 years old?
We aren't talking about statements. We're talking about criminal
activities of Confederates, Bible Belt fundamentalists and the Nazis.
They all invoked God. They ceratinly didn't invoke Darwin, Christian
fascist, David Ford.
.
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| User: "AC" |
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| Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial |
06 Jul 2004 11:50:08 PM |
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On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 01:48:04 +0000 (UTC),
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
AC <mightymartianca@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<slrncekcp6.ktd.mightymartianca@mp1.alberni.net>...
On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 03:18:43 +0000 (UTC),
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
lt_kizhe@yahoo.ca (Lieutenant Kizhe Katson) wrote in message news:<47b867ea.0407050936.5956afb2@posting.google.com>...
dford3@gl.umbc.edu (david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0407050256.447e5fe1@posting.google.com>...
Orac <orac@mac.com> wrote in message news:<orac-A44FC6.18501503072004@news4-ge1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
[about Harun Yahya Holcaust denial book]
A brief skimming of it
reveals is full of the sorts of lies and distortions about the Holocaust
that I've been battling on alt.revisionism for for at least six years.
I've been battling [O]"lies and distortions" in talk.origins for about
7 years.
Battling *using* lies and distortions would be more like it, David.
What are 3 of the "lies and distortions" you have in mind?
The top one that comes to mind is your strawman of methodological naturalism
which you tout as the "blind watchmaker hypothesis". I fail to see how an
intellectually honest person would play such a game, so I've come to the
conclusion that you are not honest.
[AC]"your strawman of" In your view, what should I be attacking
instead of my supposed strawman?
How about the lies spread by Creationists and other purveyors of
pseudo-science.
Also, I don't know what you mean by
[AC]"methodological naturalism."
Then look it up, David. Surely you've come across the concept before.
There's also your quote-mining and hunting out quotes, some 80 years old.
What is the meaning of [AC]"quote-mining"?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but historians routinely seek out and present
others' statements, some far more than 80 years old. Do you consider
historians to be engaging in "lies and distortions" simply by virtue
of the fact that they present others' statements, some far more than
80 years old?
You aren't a historian. You are a creationist quote-mining the likes of
Dawkins and hunting down citations some of them the better part of a century
old. You are just a liar, David.
--
Aaron Clausen
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
.
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
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| Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial |
09 Jul 2004 03:16:39 AM |
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AC wrote:
The top one that comes to mind is your strawman of methodological naturalism
which you tout as the "blind watchmaker hypothesis". I fail to see how an
intellectually honest person would play such a game, so I've come to the
conclusion that you are not honest.
There's also your quote-mining and hunting out quotes, some 80 years old.
Is not pulling a speech here and a document there out of millions
also quote-mining? What does that have to do with physical evidence of
gas chambers? Why would "code words" in so very few documents appear
to substitute for physical evidence?
Holohuggery's use of code words in place of physical evidence is
hardly what one would consider honest.
--
Were the US to cease support, Israel would
become a tail in search of a dog.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3201
.
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
|
| Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial |
09 Jul 2004 02:35:51 AM |
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Lieutenant Kizhe Katson wrote:
dford3@gl.umbc.edu (david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0407050256.447e5fe1@posting.google.com>...
Orac <orac@mac.com> wrote in message news:<orac-A44FC6.18501503072004@news4-ge1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
[about Harun Yahya Holcaust denial book]
A brief skimming of it
reveals is full of the sorts of lies and distortions about the Holocaust
that I've been battling on alt.revisionism for for at least six years.
I've been battling [O]"lies and distortions" in talk.origins for about
7 years.
Battling *using* lies and distortions would be more like it, David.
As there is no working inclusive definition of what is meant by
holocaust as it is most like a religion the issue is a distortion itself.
--
For Iraqis, Americans have turned out to be everything
Hussein said they were and sometime even worse.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3189
.
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| User: "John Harshman" |
|
| Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial |
05 Jul 2004 08:50:18 AM |
|
|
david ford wrote:
Orac <orac@mac.com> wrote in message news:<orac-A44FC6.18501503072004@news4-ge1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
In article <MkGFc.56582$OB3.28425@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Ken Shaw <none.of@your.biz> wrote:
david ford wrote:
All creationists of which I am aware oppose the Nazi belief in life
being a struggle, where it is survival of the fittest.
Do you reject that Nazi belief?
That is not a nazi belief. Don't try and turn ns into a nazi belief.
You fail to state whether you oppose holocaust deniers who are also
supporters of creationists.
Indeed. He certainly hurts his "case" by referencing such books. The
book referenced is entitled "The Holocaust Hoax."
When did I supposedly do this [O]"referencing"?
[O]"hurts his 'case' by referencing such books." Did I hurt my case
by referencing the following?:
1942 Heydrich: "The Jews... no doubt a large part of them will be
eliminated by natural diminution. The survivors, the hardiest among
them, must be given an appropriate treatment, because they represent a
natural selection...."
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407032023.243f5883%40posting.google.com
1940 Nazi film "All Life is Struggle" embracing Darwinian natural
selection
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407042043.1c2ccf1f%40posting.google.com
The first question that occurs is "What case?" What are you trying to
make a case for, if anything?
This and others of your posts show mostly that the Nazis misunderstood
both the nature of natural selection and its relation to human morality.
Was that your point? What does this have to do with Harun Yahya's
holocaust denial?
I suppose the real question at issue here is whether a person's position
on one subject (e.g. the holocaust) has a strong bearing on the validity
of his position on another subject (e.g. evolution). If Harun Yahya
writes a book denying the holocaust, are his books on evolution
therefore suspect? I don't think so. There are many, many examples of
people who are brilliant in one field being absolute loons in another.
Isaac Newton, for example.
Of course there are other reasons to consider Yahya's books on evolution
to be suspect, not to mention ridiculous, wrong, mendacious, and a bunch
of other bad qualities.
A brief skimming of it
reveals is full of the sorts of lies and distortions about the Holocaust
that I've been battling on alt.revisionism for for at least six years.
I've been battling [O]"lies and distortions" in talk.origins for about
7 years.
Battling and propagating are two quite different things.
[snip]
.
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| User: "david ford" |
|
| Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial |
06 Jul 2004 08:29:34 AM |
|
|
John Harshman <jharshman.diespamdie@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<40E95D79.8020104@pacbell.net>...
david ford wrote:
Orac <orac@mac.com> wrote in message news:<orac-A44FC6.18501503072004@news4-ge1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
In article <MkGFc.56582$OB3.28425@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Ken Shaw <none.of@your.biz> wrote:
david ford wrote:
All creationists of which I am aware oppose the Nazi belief in life
being a struggle, where it is survival of the fittest.
Do you reject that Nazi belief?
That is not a nazi belief. Don't try and turn ns into a nazi belief.
You fail to state whether you oppose holocaust deniers who are also
supporters of creationists.
Indeed. He certainly hurts his "case" by referencing such books. The
book referenced is entitled "The Holocaust Hoax."
When did I supposedly do this [O]"referencing"?
[O]"hurts his 'case' by referencing such books." Did I hurt my case
by referencing the following?:
1942 Heydrich: "The Jews... no doubt a large part of them will be
eliminated by natural diminution. The survivors, the hardiest among
them, must be given an appropriate treatment, because they represent a
natural selection...."
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407032023.243f5883%40posting.google.com
1940 Nazi film "All Life is Struggle" embracing Darwinian natural
selection
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407042043.1c2ccf1f%40posting.google.com
The first question that occurs is "What case?" What are you trying to
make a case for, if anything?
At the moment, I'm exploring the possibility of a connection between
a) the (erroneous) ideas/thoughts Darwin expressed in writing, and
b) the coming of the Holocaust.
This and others of your posts show mostly that the Nazis misunderstood
both the nature of natural selection and its relation to human morality.
Please explain. What is the actual [JH]"nature of natural selection"?
What is the actual relation of Darwinian natural selection [JH]"to
human morality"?
Was that your point?
No.
What does this have to do with Harun Yahya's
holocaust denial?
If a person, or a collection of persons, believes that the Holocaust
didn't happen, then he/they will not accept a claim that there is a
connection between Darwin's ideas and the coming of the Holocaust.
I suppose the real question at issue here is whether a person's position
on one subject (e.g. the holocaust) has a strong bearing on the validity
of his position on another subject (e.g. evolution). If Harun Yahya
writes a book denying the holocaust, are his books on evolution
therefore suspect? I don't think so.
Agreed. Especially if "Harun Yahya" stands for several different
individuals writing under that name.
There are many, many examples of
people who are brilliant in one field being absolute loons in another.
Isaac Newton, for example.
Of course there are other reasons to consider Yahya's books on evolution
to be suspect, not to mention ridiculous, wrong, mendacious, and a bunch
of other bad qualities.
I have a printed/bound copy (not a printout) of the eight edition of
his _The Evolution Deceit: The Scientific Collapse of Darwinism and
Its Ideological Background_. What are some of the more glaring
problems with this book?
A brief skimming of it
reveals is full of the sorts of lies and distortions about the Holocaust
that I've been battling on alt.revisionism for for at least six years.
I've been battling [O]"lies and distortions" in talk.origins for about
7 years.
Battling and propagating are two quite different things.
[snip]
I agree with you that battling lies and propagating lies [JH]"are two
quite different things." If you wish to contend that I have
propagated lies, please provide some illustrations in support of that
contention.
.
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| User: "R.Schenck" |
|
| Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial |
06 Jul 2004 02:08:55 PM |
|
|
(david ford) wrote in message news:<b1c67abe.0407060533.4d618e32@posting.google.com>...
John Harshman <jharshman.diespamdie@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<40E95D79.8020104@pacbell.net>...
david ford wrote:
Orac <orac@mac.com> wrote in message news:<orac-A44FC6.18501503072004@news4-ge1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
In article <MkGFc.56582$OB3.28425@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Ken Shaw <none.of@your.biz> wrote:
david ford wrote:
All creationists of which I am aware oppose the Nazi belief in life
being a struggle, where it is survival of the fittest.
Do you reject that Nazi belief?
That is not a nazi belief. Don't try and turn ns into a nazi belief.
You fail to state whether you oppose holocaust deniers who are also
supporters of creationists.
Indeed. He certainly hurts his "case" by referencing such books. The
book referenced is entitled "The Holocaust Hoax."
When did I supposedly do this [O]"referencing"?
[O]"hurts his 'case' by referencing such books." Did I hurt my case
by referencing the following?:
1942 Heydrich: "The Jews... no doubt a large part of them will be
eliminated by natural diminution. The survivors, the hardiest among
them, must be given an appropriate treatment, because they represent a
natural selection...."
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407032023.243f5883%40posting.google.com
1940 Nazi film "All Life is Struggle" embracing Darwinian natural
selection
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407042043.1c2ccf1f%40posting.google.com
The first question that occurs is "What case?" What are you trying to
make a case for, if anything?
At the moment, I'm exploring the possibility of a connection between
a) the (erroneous) ideas/thoughts Darwin expressed in writing, and
b) the coming of the Holocaust.
This and others of your posts show mostly that the Nazis misunderstood
both the nature of natural selection and its relation to human morality.
Please explain. What is the actual [JH]"nature of natural selection"?
Its unrelated to the sorts of things the nazis were trying to breed.
What is the actual relation of Darwinian natural selection [JH]"to
human morality"?
There specifically and explicitly is no relation at all. Darwin, i
have heard, noted this infact, that it would be grave error to try to
apply the 'logic' of natural selection or of any aspect of nature to
human morality and ethics.
Was that your point?
No.
What does this have to do with Harun Yahya's
holocaust denial?
If a person, or a collection of persons, believes that the Holocaust
didn't happen, then he/they will not accept a claim that there is a
connection between Darwin's ideas and the coming of the Holocaust.
Logically they should not. HOwever harun yahya is fanatical
propaganda, and therefore has no problem saying 'the holocaust was a
lie, it should've been allowed to finish, and its a result of
darwinism' all in the same breath. Is that reasonable?
I suppose the real question at issue here is whether a person's position
on one subject (e.g. the holocaust) has a strong bearing on the validity
of his position on another subject (e.g. evolution). If Harun Yahya
writes a book denying the holocaust, are his books on evolution
therefore suspect? I don't think so.
Agreed. Especially if "Harun Yahya" stands for several different
individuals writing under that name.
There are many, many examples of
people who are brilliant in one field being absolute loons in another.
Isaac Newton, for example.
Of course there are other reasons to consider Yahya's books on evolution
to be suspect, not to mention ridiculous, wrong, mendacious, and a bunch
of other bad qualities.
I have a printed/bound copy (not a printout) of the eight edition of
his _The Evolution Deceit: The Scientific Collapse of Darwinism and
Its Ideological Background_. What are some of the more glaring
problems with this book?
Without having read it I am going to say (1) it doesn't present any
evidence against evolution (2) it doesn't present any evidence for
creationism (3) its full of lies (4) its full of misrepresentations
and finally (5) it doesn't make a convincing case for the scientific
collapse of darwinism and its ideological background. I would also
bet that it doesn't accurately detail 'darwinism' nor its 'ideological
background'. Was that the case? Perhaps you could post some
selections that disprove my guesses?
snip
.
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| User: "David Iain Greig" |
|
| Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial |
06 Jul 2004 09:26:10 AM |
|
|
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
John Harshman <jharshman.diespamdie@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<40E95D79.8020104@pacbell.net>...
david ford wrote:
Orac <orac@mac.com> wrote in message news:<orac-A44FC6.18501503072004@news4-ge1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
In article <MkGFc.56582$OB3.28425@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Ken Shaw <none.of@your.biz> wrote:
david ford wrote:
All creationists of which I am aware oppose the Nazi belief in life
being a struggle, where it is survival of the fittest.
Do you reject that Nazi belief?
That is not a nazi belief. Don't try and turn ns into a nazi belief.
You fail to state whether you oppose holocaust deniers who are also
supporters of creationists.
Indeed. He certainly hurts his "case" by referencing such books. The
book referenced is entitled "The Holocaust Hoax."
When did I supposedly do this [O]"referencing"?
[O]"hurts his 'case' by referencing such books." Did I hurt my case
by referencing the following?:
1942 Heydrich: "The Jews... no doubt a large part of them will be
eliminated by natural diminution. The survivors, the hardiest among
them, must be given an appropriate treatment, because they represent a
natural selection...."
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407032023.243f5883%40posting.google.com
1940 Nazi film "All Life is Struggle" embracing Darwinian natural
selection
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407042043.1c2ccf1f%40posting.google.com
The first question that occurs is "What case?" What are you trying to
make a case for, if anything?
At the moment, I'm exploring the possibility of a connection between
a) the (erroneous) ideas/thoughts Darwin expressed in writing, and
b) the coming of the Holocaust.
It's odd, you know, that of the several *dozen* books I have on the
Holocaust, none of them discuss Darwin. What they DO discuss is
the history of antisemitism, which predates Darwin by quite a bit.
Some time, if you are ever in Frankfurt-am-Main, go to the Jewish
Museum there. On the second floor there are panels discussing the
history of the Jews in Frankfurt back to around 1000AD. Included in
these panels are descriptions of the periodic riots that the good
burghers of Frankfurt conducted, usually resulting in the destruction
of the Jewish Quarter and the deaths of hundreds of Jews. The arguments
put forward by the citizens about how filhy and evil the Jews were,
how they were wicked Christ-killers, and the blood libel... all
of these predated Darwin by a millenium.
To me, having seen this, I no longer consider the Holocaust an
aberration, or unique. It was simply the culmination of 2000 years
of racial hatred in Europe aimed at the Jews. This hatred went
largely 'out of style' post-1945, of course, but not for everyone.
I will agree there is a large amount of socio-historical work on the
medicalization and modernization of antisemitism in the latter half
of the 19th and early 20th century. Antisemites took these new
modes of expression and used them to justify their prejudices to
a population that might not longer care about 'the Blood Libel'.
Witness the powerful Eugenics movement in the USA, which led the
world in legal actions against the 'unfit', even in the absence
of any serious understanding of the causes of, or proof of,
'unfitness'. Like the 19th century belief that masturbation would
cause a man or woman to have defective children, the belief that
Jews or Slavs were 'lesser races' was simply ignorant.
--D.
.
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| User: "Daniel Harper" |
|
| Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial |
06 Jul 2004 03:15:27 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 14:26:10 +0000, David Iain Greig wrote:
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
John Harshman <jharshman.diespamdie@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:<40E95D79.8020104@pacbell.net>...
david ford wrote:
Orac <orac@mac.com> wrote in message
news:<orac-A44FC6.18501503072004@news4-ge1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>... In
article <MkGFc.56582$OB3.28425@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Ken Shaw <none.of@your.biz> wrote: david ford wrote:
All creationists of which I am aware oppose the Nazi belief in life
being a struggle, where it is survival of the fittest. Do you
reject that Nazi belief?
That is not a nazi belief. Don't try and turn ns into a nazi belief.
You fail to state whether you oppose holocaust deniers who are also
supporters of creationists.
Indeed. He certainly hurts his "case" by referencing such books. The
book referenced is entitled "The Holocaust Hoax."
When did I supposedly do this [O]"referencing"? [O]"hurts his 'case'
by referencing such books." Did I hurt my case by referencing the
following?:
1942 Heydrich: "The Jews... no doubt a large part of them will be
eliminated by natural diminution. The survivors, the hardiest among
them, must be given an appropriate treatment, because they represent
a natural selection...."
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407032023.243f5883%40posting.google.com
1940 Nazi film "All Life is Struggle" embracing Darwinian natural
selection
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407042043.1c2ccf1f%40posting.google.com
The first question that occurs is "What case?" What are you trying to
make a case for, if anything?
At the moment, I'm exploring the possibility of a connection between a)
the (erroneous) ideas/thoughts Darwin expressed in writing, and b) the
coming of the Holocaust.
It's odd, you know, that of the several *dozen* books I have on the
Holocaust, none of them discuss Darwin. What they DO discuss is the
history of antisemitism, which predates Darwin by quite a bit.
Some time, if you are ever in Frankfurt-am-Main, go to the Jewish Museum
there. On the second floor there are panels discussing the history of the
Jews in Frankfurt back to around 1000AD. Included in these panels are
descriptions of the periodic riots that the good burghers of Frankfurt
conducted, usually resulting in the destruction of the Jewish Quarter and
the deaths of hundreds of Jews. The arguments put forward by the citizens
about how filhy and evil the Jews were, how they were wicked
Christ-killers, and the blood libel... all of these predated Darwin by a
millenium.
To me, having seen this, I no longer consider the Holocaust an aberration,
or unique. It was simply the culmination of 2000 years of racial hatred
in Europe aimed at the Jews. This hatred went largely 'out of style'
post-1945, of course, but not for everyone.
I will agree there is a large amount of socio-historical work on the
medicalization and modernization of antisemitism in the latter half of the
19th and early 20th century. Antisemites took these new modes of
expression and used them to justify their prejudices to a population that
might not longer care about 'the Blood Libel'. Witness the powerful
Eugenics movement in the USA, which led the world in legal actions against
the 'unfit', even in the absence of any serious understanding of the
causes of, or proof of, 'unfitness'. Like the 19th century belief that
masturbation would cause a man or woman to have defective children, the
belief that Jews or Slavs were 'lesser races' was simply ignorant.
--D.
I've lately been looking for a couple of good books on the Holocaust, not
least so that whenever Giwer shows up I can help shut him up. There are
quite a few I've seen that look decent -- do you have any specific
recommendations?
I should note that I don't speak or read German.
Thanks in advance.
--
Finding a scientific theory of creation is a bit like parsing /dev/null.
--Daniel Harper
(change terra to earth for email)
.
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| User: "David Iain Greig" |
|
| Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial |
07 Jul 2004 10:22:46 PM |
|
|
Daniel Harper <daniel_harper@terralink.net> wrote:
I've lately been looking for a couple of good books on the Holocaust, not
least so that whenever Giwer shows up I can help shut him up. There are
quite a few I've seen that look decent -- do you have any specific
recommendations?
I should note that I don't speak or read German.
Thanks in advance.
I would start with Inga Clendinnen's book, 'Reading the Holocaust'.
Relatively short, by an historian, discussing how she started
learning about the events in question. ISBN is 0521012694.
Paperback is like $12 new from Amazon. I found the book reflected
*my* experience in learning about the Holocaust amazingly.
Leave Hilberg's magnum opus, 'The Destruction of the European Jews'
for much later, unless you want to get your feet very wet. Hilberg
has a number of books apart from that, like 'Perpetrators, Victims,
Bystanders' though. I think there's a Reader's Digest version
of his 3 volume work tho'.
Hannah Arendt's 'Eichmann in Jerusalem' is not bad. Kogon's book
'The Theory and Practice of Hell' is a bit dated (written just after
the war, I think) but was fresh in his mind then. 'We Were In Auschwitz'
by a few Polish inmates is an amazing collection of stories.
Wolfgang Sofsky's thesis was published as 'The Order of Terror', and
is an interesting analysis of the sociology of the camps. I have
gone back and reread it a few times, as I learn more.
Gitta Sereny did a bio of the Treblinka commandant Franz Stangl, and
of course Hoss (or Hoess) penned an autobiography before they hanged
him after the war, 'Commandant of Auschwitz'. Both are pretty
focussed on a single camp.
Anything by Hermann Langbein.
Oh, Robert Lifton's book 'The Nazi Doctors' explores one part of
the entire euthanasia to deathcamp evolution. Pretty much a must-read.
Anything by Primo Levi.
Robert Jan van Pelt and Deborah Dwork, also good choices. Look up their
works in Amazon.
Oh, so much more.
--D.
.
|
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
|
| Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial |
09 Jul 2004 03:03:55 AM |
|
|
David Iain Greig wrote:
Daniel Harper <daniel_harper@terralink.net> wrote:
I've lately been looking for a couple of good books on the Holocaust, not
least so that whenever Giwer shows up I can help shut him up. There are
quite a few I've seen that look decent -- do you have any specific
recommendations?
I should note that I don't speak or read German.
Thanks in advance.
I would start with Inga Clendinnen's book, 'Reading the Holocaust'.
Relatively short, by an historian, discussing how she started
learning about the events in question. ISBN is 0521012694.
Paperback is like $12 new from Amazon. I found the book reflected
*my* experience in learning about the Holocaust amazingly.
Leave Hilberg's magnum opus, 'The Destruction of the European Jews'
for much later, unless you want to get your feet very wet. Hilberg
has a number of books apart from that, like 'Perpetrators, Victims,
Bystanders' though. I think there's a Reader's Digest version
of his 3 volume work tho'.
Hannah Arendt's 'Eichmann in Jerusalem' is not bad. Kogon's book
'The Theory and Practice of Hell' is a bit dated (written just after
the war, I think) but was fresh in his mind then. 'We Were In Auschwitz'
by a few Polish inmates is an amazing collection of stories.
Wolfgang Sofsky's thesis was published as 'The Order of Terror', and
is an interesting analysis of the sociology of the camps. I have
gone back and reread it a few times, as I learn more.
Gitta Sereny did a bio of the Treblinka commandant Franz Stangl, and
of course Hoss (or Hoess) penned an autobiography before they hanged
him after the war, 'Commandant of Auschwitz'. Both are pretty
focussed on a single camp.
Anything by Hermann Langbein.
Oh, Robert Lifton's book 'The Nazi Doctors' explores one part of
the entire euthanasia to deathcamp evolution. Pretty much a must-read.
Anything by Primo Levi.
Robert Jan van Pelt and Deborah Dwork, also good choices. Look up their
works in Amazon.
Oh, so much more.
Totally worthless, individually and collectively, without physical
evidence of gas chambers. The whole issue hinges upon the means of
mass extermination. As there is no world census data supporting
millions of missing Jews because of the war the entire claim is
without foundation. Holocaustians are left only with second best, to
produce physical evidence of gas chambers. As none has ever been
produced there is no basis in fact for their curious religion.
--
Lets talk about Joshua and the battle of Jericho.
Now that was a holocaust.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3208
.
|
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| User: "David Iain Greig" |
|
| Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial |
09 Jul 2004 01:43:01 PM |
|
|
Matt Giwer <jull43@tampabay.rr.RoMeVE.com> wrote:
David Iain Greig wrote:
Daniel Harper <daniel_harper@terralink.net> wrote:
I've lately been looking for a couple of good books on the Holocaust, not
least so that whenever Giwer shows up I can help shut him up. There are
quite a few I've seen that look decent -- do you have any specific
recommendations?
I should note that I don't speak or read German.
Thanks in advance.
I would start with Inga Clendinnen's book, 'Reading the Holocaust'.
Relatively short, by an historian, discussing how she started
learning about the events in question. ISBN is 0521012694.
Paperback is like $12 new from Amazon. I found the book reflected
*my* experience in learning about the Holocaust amazingly.
Leave Hilberg's magnum opus, 'The Destruction of the European Jews'
for much later, unless you want to get your feet very wet. Hilberg
has a number of books apart from that, like 'Perpetrators, Victims,
Bystanders' though. I think there's a Reader's Digest version
of his 3 volume work tho'.
Hannah Arendt's 'Eichmann in Jerusalem' is not bad. Kogon's book
'The Theory and Practice of Hell' is a bit dated (written just after
the war, I think) but was fresh in his mind then. 'We Were In Auschwitz'
by a few Polish inmates is an amazing collection of stories.
Wolfgang Sofsky's thesis was published as 'The Order of Terror', and
is an interesting analysis of the sociology of the camps. I have
gone back and reread it a few times, as I learn more.
Gitta Sereny did a bio of the Treblinka commandant Franz Stangl, and
of course Hoss (or Hoess) penned an autobiography before they hanged
him after the war, 'Commandant of Auschwitz'. Both are pretty
focussed on a single camp.
Anything by Hermann Langbein.
Oh, Robert Lifton's book 'The Nazi Doctors' explores one part of
the entire euthanasia to deathcamp evolution. Pretty much a must-read.
Anything by Primo Levi.
Robert Jan van Pelt and Deborah Dwork, also good choices. Look up their
works in Amazon.
Oh, so much more.
Totally worthless, individually and collectively, without physical
evidence of gas chambers. The whole issue hinges upon the means of
mass extermination. As there is no world census data supporting
millions of missing Jews because of the war the entire claim is
without foundation. Holocaustians are left only with second best, to
produce physical evidence of gas chambers. As none has ever been
produced there is no basis in fact for their curious religion.
The gas chamber in Dachau is still intact. You always run away when
I mention that one, why is that? Not to mention the gas chambers in
Auschwitz are still there, albeit collapsed, and the plans for
them still exist, letters exist stating they were gas chambers.
This has been repeatedly pointed out to you, yet you continue
to tell lies as above. You are, clearly, either a pathological liar,
or simply deranged.
--D.
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
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| Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial |
10 Jul 2004 02:50:19 AM |
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David Iain Greig wrote:
Matt Giwer <jull43@tampabay.rr.RoMeVE.com> wrote:
Totally worthless, individually and collectively, without physical
evidence of gas chambers. The whole issue hinges upon the means of
mass extermination. As there is no world census data supporting
millions of missing Jews because of the war the entire claim is
without foundation. Holocaustians are left only with second best, to
produce physical evidence of gas chambers. As none has ever been
produced there is no basis in fact for their curious religion.
The gas chamber in Dachau is still intact. You always run away when
I mention that one, why is that?
I point out to you it has NO engineering feature required for a
cyanide gas chamber and many which are contrary to a gas chamber such
as big glass windows.
What it means is you are dumb enough to believe a room which is
clearly labeled as a shower room and has all the features of a shower
room and none of a gas chamber was a gas chamber.
Not to mention the gas chambers in
Auschwitz are still there, albeit collapsed, and the plans for
them still exist, letters exist stating they were gas chambers.
There is no evidence of any of the engineering features required to
be a gas chambers. All that means is you are simply dumb enough to
believe what you are told.
This has been repeatedly pointed out to you, yet you continue
to tell lies as above. You are, clearly, either a pathological liar,
or simply deranged.
Any parish Catholic priest can show you a piece of the true cross of
Christ. It will be a very ordinarly looking splinter of old wood. If
you believe it that is your choice. If you stick around for mass he
can also show you the body and blood of Christ.
If you wish to believe otherwise unremarkable rooms and buildings
were gas chambers because you are told they are, that is also your
choice but it is a religion.
Rational people demand much more than a mere label they require
physical evidence.
The usual response is to claim no unique engineering features are
required for a cyanide gas chamber. Patent nonsense but if we accept
it on face value, anyone can claim any place was a gas chamber.
--
Lets talk about Joshua and the battle of Jericho.
Now that was a holocaust.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3208
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| User: "David Iain Greig" |
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| Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial |
10 Jul 2004 07:58:14 AM |
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Matt Giwer <jull43@tampabay.rr.RoMeVE.com> wrote:
David Iain Greig wrote:
Matt Giwer <jull43@tampabay.rr.RoMeVE.com> wrote:
Totally worthless, individually and collectively, without physical
evidence of gas chambers. The whole issue hinges upon the means of
mass extermination. As there is no world census data supporting
millions of missing Jews because of the war the entire claim is
without foundation. Holocaustians are left only with second best, to
produce physical evidence of gas chambers. As none has ever been
produced there is no basis in fact for their curious religion.
The gas chamber in Dachau is still intact. You always run away when
I mention that one, why is that?
I point out to you it has NO engineering feature required for a
cyanide gas chamber and many which are contrary to a gas chamber such
as big glass windows.
So the fact there are not 'big glass windows' in the gas chamber, but
that there are protected windows protected by deeply recessed metal screens,
exhaust vents in the ceiling connected to a chimney on the roof, fake
shower heads in the ceiling, and a nice metal door of the same design
as thw adjacent cyanide fumigation chambers.... you didn't know about
those bits of 'physical' or 'engineering evidence'? Funny, I've
pointed them out to you before. Well, at least you have the chance
to apologize now for being wrong now about the lack of engineering
features suitable for a gas chamber. I mean, it's not like it's
hard to find pictures of the gas chamber online, is it? Odd that
ther Germans painted a 'Brausebad' sign over the door, isn't it.
Maybe they MEANT to hook those showerheads up, and convert it into
a shower? Is that your thesis? The room with a connecting door
to a mortuary? It was some kind of bathroom for prisoners who got
all dirty handling the corpses of other inmates?
What it means is you are dumb enough to believe a room which is
clearly labeled as a shower room and has all the features of a shower
room and none of a gas chamber was a gas chamber.
And the fact it's right next to the crematorium, like in the other
gas chambers in other camps? Now, note you and I both agree that
it was never used in the extermination of Jews, but that doesn't
make it something other than what it was meant for.
You have clearly NEVER done any serious investigation into this matter
based on your blatantly ignorant and false statements made above.
Otherwise, please provide counterevidence showing all the photos
taken of the room in question are fakes, or mistaken, or something.
You won't. You haven't the last few times I've shown you in error,
you just keep coming back and lying.
Not to mention the gas chambers in
Auschwitz are still there, albeit collapsed, and the plans for
them still exist, letters exist stating they were gas chambers.
There is no evidence of any of the engineering features required to
be a gas chambers. All that means is you are simply dumb enough to
believe what you are told.
Let's see. Gastight door, powerful ventilation system, apertures in roof
with mesh columns below to hold Zyklon pellets, all on the architect's
diagrams, letters, offical bills from companies doing business with
the SS Construction Office. Not to mention the fact that detectible levels
of cyanide have been found in the remaining walls of the gas chambers,
(and, to be complete, the delousing chambers) but not in the other
buildings onsite. All physical evidence.
This has been repeatedly pointed out to you, yet you continue
to tell lies as above. You are, clearly, either a pathological liar,
or simply deranged.
Any parish Catholic priest can show you a piece of the true cross of
Christ. It will be a very ordinarly looking splinter of old wood. If
you believe it that is your choice. If you stick around for mass he
can also show you the body and blood of Christ.
If you wish to believe otherwise unremarkable rooms and buildings
were gas chambers because you are told they are, that is also your
choice but it is a religion.
Rational people demand much more than a mere label they require
physical evidence.
Which, as above, you have been pointed to. The fact you refuse any
evidence, physical or not, which interrupts your fantasy.
The usual response is to claim no unique engineering features are
required for a cyanide gas chamber. Patent nonsense but if we accept
it on face value, anyone can claim any place was a gas chamber.
There *were* engineering features present - from the door to the powerful
ventilation system as a start. Why do you keep lying about this? Either
you know you're lying, in which case you're just a bad person, or you're
suffering some kind of mental defect that prevents you from rationally
accepting counterevidence, in which case I feel sorry for you. I just
don't see an alternative. Maybe you're too stupid to think properly,
I don't know. You seem bright enough, just... deeply, profoundly,
unutterably ignorant about what constitutes evidence. You do parrot
others well.
--D.
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
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| Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial |
11 Jul 2004 12:00:26 AM |
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David Iain Greig wrote:
Matt Giwer <jull43@tampabay.rr.RoMeVE.com> wrote:
David Iain Greig wrote:
Matt Giwer <jull43@tampabay.rr.RoMeVE.com> wrote:
Totally worthless, individually and collectively, without physical
evidence of gas chambers. The whole issue hinges upon the means of
mass extermination. As there is no world census data supporting
millions of missing Jews because of the war the entire claim is
without foundation. Holocaustians are left only with second best, to
produce physical evidence of gas chambers. As none has ever been
produced there is no basis in fact for their curious religion.
The gas chamber in Dachau is still intact. You always run away when
I mention that one, why is that?
I point out to you it has NO engineering feature required for a
cyanide gas chamber and many which are contrary to a gas chamber such
as big glass windows.
So the fact there are not 'big glass windows' in the gas chamber,
You mentioned Dachau, the one the museum there says was never used.
As it was never used what is the point of bringing it up?
[For interested readers you can find one picture at
http://www.giwersworld.org/holo2/dachgas.phtml ]
but
that there are protected windows protected by deeply recessed metal screens,
You mean to control flying glass during bombing raids?
exhaust vents in the ceiling connected to a chimney on the roof,
How else does on get rid of the humidity at the end of the day and
prevent mildew? Have you ever seen a big locker room shower without
exhaust fans? How else does one keep the moisture inside the shower
room built for it instead of letting it out into the rest of the
building to rot and ruin parts of the building not made for it?
fake shower heads in the ceiling,
Certainly looked real to me in the pictures I saw. And water boiler
out back sure looked real. Even Keren used to have a picture of it on
his website -- before some unpleasant person pointed out what it was
and he removed it.
and a nice metal door of the same design
as thw adjacent cyanide fumigation chambers....
With a nice new coat of paint eliminating any suggestion it is
original equipment. And as it is clearly not the original "gas
chamber" it can only have been rebuilt later as was reported in the
mid 1950s.
you didn't know about
those bits of 'physical' or 'engineering evidence'?
No engineering equipment for handling cyanide.
Funny, I've pointed them out to you before.
Maybe you pulled the silly "followups to: talk.origins" game back
then as you did this time and I caught it like I did this time and
removed talk.origins from the list. Or you simply stopped replying so
you could come back and claim I did not repond again. Either way, no
matter.
Well, at least you have the chance
to apologize now for being wrong now about the lack of engineering
features suitable for a gas chamber.
I note the room nor door is not the one carried on the cover of Life.
I mean, it's not like it's
hard to find pictures of the gas chamber online, is it?
It is incredibly easy to find pictures of rooms captioned that but
who believes captions save holohuggers? I have even found pictures of
crematoriums captioned gas chambers. I have found pictures of a
collapsed building captioned gas chambers. Captions are incredibly
easy to find.
It is incredibly easy to find pictures of genuine flying saucers of
one believes in captions.
http://www.giwersworld.org/flyingsa.phtml
Odd that
ther Germans painted a 'Brausebad' sign over the door, isn't it.
Maybe they MEANT to hook those showerheads up, and convert it into
a shower? Is that your thesis?
And you have physical evidence they are not hooked up? Or are you
repeating another caption?
The room with a connecting door to a mortuary?
Are you suggesting if it had ever been used it was planned to put the
bodies into a mortuary? Whatever for? Going to store the bodies for a
while? Sounds like you are mixing of the Auschwitz myths with Dachau.
It was some kind of bathroom for prisoners who got
all dirty handling the corpses of other inmates?
Keren's photo spread shows it as a separate standing building. Where
did you get the idea Dachau was an extermination camp? That idea was
put to rest in the 1950s and the Dachau museum has said so since the
mid 70s. In the early 80s even Yad Vashem admitted there were
extermination camps in Germany.
Sounds like you are way behind the myth curve.
What it means is you are dumb enough to believe a room which is
clearly labeled as a shower room and has all the features of a shower
room and none of a gas chamber was a gas chamber.
And the fact it's right next to the crematorium, like in the other
gas chambers in other camps? Now, note you and I both agree that
it was never used in the extermination of Jews, but that doesn't
make it something other than what it was meant for.
--
Politicians have to be chosen by vote as there is
no way to choose by merit.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3205
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| User: "Daniel Harper" |
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| Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial |
10 Jul 2004 10:54:16 AM |
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On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 03:22:46 +0000, David Iain Greig wrote:
Daniel Harper <daniel_harper@terralink.net> wrote:
I've lately been looking for a couple of good books on the Holocaust,
not least so that whenever Giwer shows up I can help shut him up. There
are quite a few I've seen that look decent -- do you have any specific
recommendations?
I should note that I don't speak or read German.
Thanks in advance.
I would start with Inga Clendinnen's book, 'Reading the Holocaust'.
Relatively short, by an historian, discussing how she started learning
about the events in question. ISBN is 0521012694. Paperback is like $12
new from Amazon. I found the book reflected *my* experience in learning
about the Holocaust amazingly.
Leave Hilberg's magnum opus, 'The Destruction of the European Jews' for
much later, unless you want to get your feet very wet. Hilberg has a
number of books apart from that, like 'Perpetrators, Victims, Bystanders'
though. I think there's a Reader's Digest version of his 3 volume work
tho'.
Hannah Arendt's 'Eichmann in Jerusalem' is not bad. Kogon's book 'The
Theory and Practice of Hell' is a bit dated (written just after the war, I
think) but was fresh in his mind then. 'We Were In Auschwitz' by a few
Polish inmates is an amazing collection of stories.
Wolfgang Sofsky's thesis was published as 'The Order of Terror', and is an
interesting analysis of the sociology of the camps. I have gone back and
reread it a few times, as I learn more.
Gitta Sereny did a bio of the Treblinka commandant Franz Stangl, and of
course Hoss (or Hoess) penned an autobiography before they hanged him
after the war, 'Commandant of Auschwitz'. Both are pretty focussed on a
single camp.
Anything by Hermann Langbein.
Oh, Robert Lifton's book 'The Nazi Doctors' explores one part of the
entire euthanasia to deathcamp evolution. Pretty much a must-read.
Anything by Primo Levi.
Robert Jan van Pelt and Deborah Dwork, also good choices. Look up their
works in Amazon.
Oh, so much more.
Thanks for the references. I'll see what I can find.
--D.
--
Finding a scientific theory of creation is a bit like parsing /dev/null.
--Daniel Harper
(change terra to earth for email)
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
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| Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial |
09 Jul 2004 02:54:45 AM |
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Daniel Harper wrote:
I've lately been looking for a couple of good books on the Holocaust, not
least so that whenever Giwer shows up I can help shut him up. There are
quite a few I've seen that look decent -- do you have any specific
recommendations?
Why books? All you need is physical evidence of gas chambers.
I should note that I don't speak or read German.
Neither do most people.
--
If Bush knows exactly what Iraq needs, why has he not
given America exactly what it needs? It should be
much simpler than dealing with a foreign country.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3194
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| User: "David Iain Greig" |
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| Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial |
09 Jul 2004 01:28:41 PM |
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Matt Giwer <jull43@tampabay.rr.RoMeVE.com> wrote:
Daniel Harper wrote:
I've lately been looking for a couple of good books on the Holocaust, not
least so that whenever Giwer shows up I can help shut him up. There are
quite a few I've seen that look decent -- do you have any specific
recommendations?
Why books? All you need is physical evidence of gas chambers.
Amply demonstrated.
I should note that I don't speak or read German.
Neither do most people.
I learned, because of liars like you. I should thank you, but you
don't deserve it.
--D.
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| User: "Ken Shaw" |
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| Title: Re: Harun Yahya and Holocaust denial |
06 Jul 2004 05:54:42 PM |
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Daniel Harper wrote:
On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 14:26:10 +0000, David Iain Greig wrote:
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
John Harshman <jharshman.diespamdie@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:<40E95D79.8020104@pacbell.net>...
david ford wrote:
Orac <orac@mac.com> wrote in message
news:<orac-A44FC6.18501503072004@news4-ge1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>... In
article <MkGFc.56582$OB3.28425@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Ken Shaw <none.of@your.biz> wrote: david ford wrote:
All creationists of which | | | | | | |
