Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fake... Whhhhaaaaat Ahhhhh Shhhhhhhock...



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "Fredric L. Rice"
Date: 18 Dec 2005 01:37:26 PM
Object: Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fake... Whhhhaaaaat Ahhhhh Shhhhhhhock...
"EagleEye" <jnewton@globalmanagement.ca> wrote:

Not the pollen found imbedded in it, which is from the time of Christ.

Er, no. All tests conducted on the painting have consistently
yielded the fact that it's what it claims to be: a 14'th Century
painting.

Some sort of radiation flash burn is the only possible explanation for
the negative image depicted in it.

Er, no, it was painted over a roughly human shaped block of wood
and was presented to a 14'th Century Papal cleric who stored it
away until it was recovered after a fire.

Interestingly, ALL the images of Jesus face that we have eminate from
the shroud.

Er, no, the cultists who continue to believe in the Jesus mythos
create him in their own image, either white for European cultists,
brown/hispanic for much of South America, and Asian for much of
the Christanic cultists in Asia.
You might want to learn the origins of your own fucking cult
before you yark off like a fucking ignorant moron. If _I_ needed
a cult, I'd at least learn about it first. Why haven't you?
---
http://www.ElmerFudd.US/ http://www.rightard.org/ http://www.thedarkwind.org/
"SUVs don't burn down by themselves." -- Some elf in a bunny suit
.

User: "Fredric L. Rice"

Title: Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fak... 22 Dec 2005 09:34:59 AM
(Dave in Lake Villa) wrote:

It is not a painting ; there is hemoglobin present which means there was
actual blood on the wound marks present on the cloth.

<rofl!> I wonder who's telling the rubes this.
---
http://www.ElmerFudd.US/ http://www.rightard.org/ http://www.thedarkwind.org/
"SUVs don't burn down by themselves." -- Some elf in a bunny suit
"ON lithium I am more stable than fredic liberal rice." -- Theodore Baldwin Boothe III
.
User: "Bill"

Title: Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fak... 22 Dec 2005 01:24:24 PM
The Shroud of Turin is known to be a fake for years. Who is beating this
dead horse to death?
Even it was blood dating back to the first century, which it isn't, it is no
proof of gods blood or his execution.
"Fredric L. Rice" <FRice@SkepticTank.ORG> wrote in message
news:11qlhq7c77lled5@corp.supernews.com...

DaveInLakeVilla@webtv.net (Dave in Lake Villa) wrote:

It is not a painting ; there is hemoglobin present which means there was
actual blood on the wound marks present on the cloth.


<rofl!> I wonder who's telling the rubes this.

---
http://www.ElmerFudd.US/ http://www.rightard.org/
http://www.thedarkwind.org/
"SUVs don't burn down by themselves." -- Some elf in a bunny suit
"ON lithium I am more stable than fredic liberal rice." -- Theodore
Baldwin Boothe III

.

User: "Hagar"

Title: Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fak... 22 Dec 2005 03:05:22 PM
Ye of little faith .... Christians see Jebus' blood everywhere. If you add
all the places where be supposedly bled and the amount of blood that
supposedly was spilled, you must come to the conclusion that Jebus was the
size of an elephant. And to top it all, he had enough blood left in his
veins to resurrect himself.
But they will just tell you: "You just have to have faith". How can you
argue with that fucked up logic. No wonder they are all morons.
"Fredric L. Rice" <FRice@SkepticTank.ORG> wrote in message
news:11qlhq7c77lled5@corp.supernews.com...

DaveInLakeVilla@webtv.net (Dave in Lake Villa) wrote:

It is not a painting ; there is hemoglobin present which means there was
actual blood on the wound marks present on the cloth.


<rofl!> I wonder who's telling the rubes this.

---
http://www.ElmerFudd.US/ http://www.rightard.org/

http://www.thedarkwind.org/

"SUVs don't burn down by themselves." -- Some elf in a bunny suit
"ON lithium I am more stable than fredic liberal rice." -- Theodore

Baldwin Boothe III


.
User: "R.D. Heilman"

Title: Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fak... 24 Dec 2005 02:45:57 PM
"Hagar" <hagen@sahm.name> wrote in message
news:P4mdnbfyOKeLiDbeRVn-ow@giganews.com...

Ye of little faith .... Christians see Jebus' blood everywhere. If you add
all the places where be supposedly bled and the amount of blood that
supposedly was spilled, you must come to the conclusion that Jebus was the
size of an elephant. And to top it all, he had enough blood left in his
veins to resurrect himself.

Who is Jebus? Never heard of him/her.


But they will just tell you: "You just have to have faith". How can you
argue with that fucked up logic. No wonder they are all morons.


"Fredric L. Rice" <FRice@SkepticTank.ORG> wrote in message
news:11qlhq7c77lled5@corp.supernews.com...

DaveInLakeVilla@webtv.net (Dave in Lake Villa) wrote:

It is not a painting ; there is hemoglobin present which means there was
actual blood on the wound marks present on the cloth.


<rofl!> I wonder who's telling the rubes this.

---
http://www.ElmerFudd.US/ http://www.rightard.org/

http://www.thedarkwind.org/

"SUVs don't burn down by themselves." -- Some elf in a bunny suit
"ON lithium I am more stable than fredic liberal rice." -- Theodore

Baldwin Boothe III




.



User: "Mike Painter"

Title: Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fake... Whhhhaaaaat Ahhhhh Shhhhhhhock... 18 Dec 2005 03:07:26 PM
Fredric L. Rice wrote:

"EagleEye" <jnewton@globalmanagement.ca> wrote:

Not the pollen found imbedded in it, which is from the time of
Christ.


Er, no. All tests conducted on the painting have consistently
yielded the fact that it's what it claims to be: a 14'th Century
painting.

Some sort of radiation flash burn is the only possible explanation
for the negative image depicted in it.


Er, no, it was painted over a roughly human shaped block of wood
and was presented to a 14'th Century Papal cleric who stored it
away until it was recovered after a fire.

There are also other ways the image could have been created with what was
available at the time, but then the image would not have looked right when
it was flattened out.
Hint. Greenland is not that big.
It was also declared a fake by the bishop who first saw it. This in a time
when selling relics was big business. It must have been a poor fake.


Interestingly, ALL the images of Jesus face that we have eminate from
the shroud.


Er, no, the cultists who continue to believe in the Jesus mythos
create him in their own image, either white for European cultists,
brown/hispanic for much of South America, and Asian for much of
the Christanic cultists in Asia.

You might want to learn the origins of your own fucking cult
before you yark off like a fucking ignorant moron. If _I_ needed
a cult, I'd at least learn about it first. Why haven't you?

---
http://www.ElmerFudd.US/ http://www.rightard.org/
http://www.thedarkwind.org/ "SUVs don't burn down by themselves." --
Some elf in a bunny suit

.
User: "Fredric L. Rice"

Title: Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fake... Whhhhaaaaat Ahhhhh Shhhhhhhock... 19 Dec 2005 11:44:08 AM
"Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Fredric L. Rice wrote:

"EagleEye" <jnewton@globalmanagement.ca> wrote:

Not the pollen found imbedded in it, which is from the time of Christ.

Er, no. All tests conducted on the painting have consistently
yielded the fact that it's what it claims to be: a 14'th Century painting.

There are also other ways the image could have been created with what was
available at the time, but then the image would not have looked right when
it was flattened out.
It was also declared a fake by the bishop who first saw it. This in a time
when selling relics was big business. It must have been a poor fake.

Apparently the painting was a gift that was stored along with so many
others that came in over the year and it was only after a fire when
the gifts were being sorted through that someone apparebntly came up
with the notion to pass the thing off as something other than a painting.
---
http://www.ElmerFudd.US/ http://www.rightard.org/ http://www.thedarkwind.org/
"SUVs don't burn down by themselves." -- Some elf in a bunny suit
.
User: "EagleEye"

Title: Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fake... Whhhhaaaaat Ahhhhh Shhhhhhhock... 19 Dec 2005 04:09:53 PM

Apparently the painting was a gift that was stored along with so many
others that came in over the year and it was only after a fire when..

If a painting, then it was painted in the negative. And I wasn't aware
that they ever found paint pigment on it either.
I think you're full of ***** Frederic, making proclamations as true and
conclusive, which are not supported by the facts.
.
User: "Michelle Malkin"

Title: Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fake... Whhhhaaaaat Ahhhhh Shhhhhhhock... 20 Dec 2005 03:43:35 AM
"EagleEye" <jnewton@globalmanagement.ca> wrote in message
news:1135030193.840205.49350@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Apparently the painting was a gift that was stored along with so many
others that came in over the year and it was only after a fire when..


If a painting, then it was painted in the negative. And I wasn't aware
that they ever found paint pigment on it either.

I think you're full of ***** Frederic, making proclamations as true and
conclusive, which are not supported by the facts.

The age of the shroud has been found to be the 1200's.
The arms are longer than is natural and the eyes are off.
Plus, there were many copies made of the original shroud.
.

User: "Michael Gray"

Title: Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fake... Whhhhaaaaat Ahhhhh Shhhhhhhock... 19 Dec 2005 06:44:13 PM
On 19 Dec 2005 14:09:53 -0800, "EagleEye"
<jnewton@globalmanagement.ca> wrote:

Apparently the painting was a gift that was stored along with so many
others that came in over the year and it was only after a fire when..


If a painting, then it was painted in the negative. And I wasn't aware
that they ever found paint pigment on it either.

Oh well, that proves it.
No one is capable of painting in the negative.
It MUST be a miracle!

I think you're full of ***** Frederic, making proclamations as true and
conclusive, which are not supported by the facts.

.
User: "EagleEye"

Title: Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fake... Whhhhaaaaat Ahhhhh Shhhhhhhock... 19 Dec 2005 11:52:42 PM

Oh well, that proves it.
No one is capable of painting in the negative.
It MUST be a miracle!

There is no evidence that the image is composed of paint to begin with,
and that it is a negative image shows that is was not created by say
placing it on a hot statue of some sort. Furthermore there ARE pollen
samples in the fibres which have been determined to have come from
around the time of Christ. To say that it is a simple painting is
*****. And the images that we have of Christ do in fact originate
with the shroud. That would be one line of inquiry - looking back
through history for the very first images of the face of Christ, and
making a point by point comparison with the face in the shroud. The
Knights Templar sure seemed to think that it was an important relic. I
think the jury is still out on it as to its authenticity. If a fake,
then it's a pretty elaborate one entirely consistent with the burial
shroud of a crucified man, right down to the finest detail, and without
any evidence that it was painted on. And the image is consitent with
some sort of radiation flash burn. Also, the way the image was created
was with microscopic dots - not any sort of brush strokes, and, it is
truly 3 dimensional and a negative, which suggests it's authenticity
since the formation of the image involves a level of complexity which
no art production of the middle ages would be capable of.
.
User: "Fredric L. Rice"

Title: Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fake... Whhhhaaaaat Ahhhhh Shhhhhhhock... 20 Dec 2005 11:20:45 AM
"EagleEye" <jnewton@globalmanagement.ca> wrote:

Oh well, that proves it.
No one is capable of painting in the negative.
It MUST be a miracle!

There is no evidence that the image is composed of paint to begin with

<rofl!> Other than the plant dyes that it was composed with and
which every frocking test continues to prove the painting as a
_known_ 13'th Century painting.
Why does every fucking rightard wind up being a fundy cultist kook?
---
http://www.ElmerFudd.US/ http://www.rightard.org/ http://www.thedarkwind.org/
"SUVs don't burn down by themselves." -- Some elf in a bunny suit
.
User: "Michael Gray"

Title: Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fake... Whhhhaaaaat Ahhhhh Shhhhhhhock... 20 Dec 2005 06:20:03 PM
On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 17:20:45 GMT,
(Fredric L.
Rice) wrote:

"EagleEye" <jnewton@globalmanagement.ca> wrote:

Oh well, that proves it.
No one is capable of painting in the negative.
It MUST be a miracle!

There is no evidence that the image is composed of paint to begin with


<rofl!> Other than the plant dyes that it was composed with and
which every frocking test continues to prove the painting as a
_known_ 13'th Century painting.

Why does every fucking rightard wind up being a fundy cultist kook?

Have you seen Eager-lie's cockamamie rubbish about the World Trade
Centre disasters?
Well worth it, for another laugh.
He dribles a lot, all over the sci.skeptic newsgroup.
.


User: "Michael Gray"

Title: Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fake... Whhhhaaaaat Ahhhhh Shhhhhhhock... 20 Dec 2005 01:38:19 AM
On 19 Dec 2005 21:52:42 -0800, "EagleEye"
<jnewton@globalmanagement.ca> wrote:

Oh well, that proves it.
No one is capable of painting in the negative.
It MUST be a miracle!


There is no evidence that the image is composed of paint to begin with,
and that it is a negative image shows that is was not created by say
placing it on a hot statue of some sort. Furthermore there ARE pollen
samples in the fibres which have been determined to have come from
around the time of Christ. To say that it is a simple painting is
*****. And the images that we have of Christ do in fact originate
with the shroud. That would be one line of inquiry - looking back
through history for the very first images of the face of Christ, and
making a point by point comparison with the face in the shroud. The
Knights Templar sure seemed to think that it was an important relic. I
think the jury is still out on it as to its authenticity. If a fake,
then it's a pretty elaborate one entirely consistent with the burial
shroud of a crucified man, right down to the finest detail, and without
any evidence that it was painted on. And the image is consitent with
some sort of radiation flash burn. Also, the way the image was created
was with microscopic dots - not any sort of brush strokes, and, it is
truly 3 dimensional and a negative, which suggests it's authenticity
since the formation of the image involves a level of complexity which
no art production of the middle ages would be capable of.

Hey...
I was agreeing with you.
Now go and take your medications, like the ward nurse told you to,
over an hour ago.
.
User: "EagleEye"

Title: Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fake... Whhhhaaaaat Ahhhhh Shhhhhhhock... 20 Dec 2005 02:28:36 AM

Now go and take your medications, like the ward nurse told you to,
over an hour ago.

WTF is your problem? *****.
.
User: "Michael Gray"

Title: Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fake... Whhhhaaaaat Ahhhhh Shhhhhhhock... 20 Dec 2005 03:28:31 AM
On 20 Dec 2005 00:28:36 -0800, "EagleEye"
<jnewton@globalmanagement.ca> wrote:

Now go and take your medications, like the ward nurse told you to,
over an hour ago.


WTF is your problem? *****.

Turning on the charm won't get you anywhere!
Learning some Science will.
Just a tiny bit will do...
.








User: ""

Title: Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fake... Whhhhaaaaat Ahhhhh Shhhhhhhock... 18 Dec 2005 03:21:20 PM
Fredric L. Rice wrote:

"EagleEye" <jnewton@globalmanagement.ca> wrote:

Not the pollen found imbedded in it, which is from the time of Christ.


Er, no. All tests conducted on the painting have consistently
yielded the fact that it's what it claims to be: a 14'th Century
painting.

The C14 tests were BADLY screwed up. They forgot to clean
off the micro-organisms which grow like mad on linen.

Some sort of radiation flash burn is the only possible explanation for
the negative image depicted in it.


Er, no, it was painted over a roughly human shaped block of wood
and was presented to a 14'th Century Papal cleric who stored it
away until it was recovered after a fire.

Actually,what produces the image is a very slight dehydration of
the surface of the fibers.

Interestingly, ALL the images of Jesus face that we have eminate from
the shroud.


Er, no, the cultists who continue to believe in the Jesus mythos

A Jesus denier?
Historians tend to put them in same class as Holocaust diniers.


You might want to learn the origins of your own fucking cult
before you yark off like a fucking ignorant moron. If _I_ needed
a cult, I'd at least learn about it first. Why haven't you?

Most of us have. The vulgarity is uncalled for.

---

http://www.rightard.org/ http://www.thedarkwind.org/
That is SICK!

"SUVs don't burn down by themselves." -- Some elf in a bunny suit

.
User: "Bert Hyman"

Title: Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fake... Whhhhaaaaat Ahhhhh Shhhhhhhock... 18 Dec 2005 06:01:44 PM
In news:1134940880.768337.88350@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com
jkelley@zoomnet.net wrote:

A Jesus denier?
Historians tend to put them in same class as Holocaust diniers.

Really? You condemn every non-Christian on earth, all of whom deny the
divinity of Jesus, and many of whom question his historical existence?
--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN bert@iphouse.com
.

User: "Christopher A. Lee"

Title: Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fake... Whhhhaaaaat Ahhhhh Shhhhhhhock... 18 Dec 2005 05:00:38 PM
On 18 Dec 2005 13:21:20 -0800,
wrote:


The C14 tests were BADLY screwed up. They forgot to clean
off the micro-organisms which grow like mad on linen.

A lying Christian. What a surprise.

Some sort of radiation flash burn is the only possible explanation for
the negative image depicted in it.


Er, no, it was painted over a roughly human shaped block of wood
and was presented to a 14'th Century Papal cleric who stored it
away until it was recovered after a fire.

Actually,what produces the image is a very slight dehydration of
the surface of the fibers.

Actually, no. You forgot the paint.

Interestingly, ALL the images of Jesus face that we have eminate from
the shroud.


Er, no, the cultists who continue to believe in the Jesus mythos


A Jesus denier?

Nothing to deny, liar.

Historians tend to put them in same class as Holocaust diniers.

No they don't, liar. They admit there is no evidence outside the
Christian tradition apart from two disputed passages in Josephus.
It's viciously slanderous, in-you-face nasty, lying fundamentalists
who do that, not historians.
When you disgusting, dishonest, thoroughly nasty liars run out of
anything to offer, you play the Nazi/Hitler/etc card. Which means you
have already lost.
.
User: ""

Title: Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fake... Whhhhaaaaat Ahhhhh Shhhhhhhock... 18 Dec 2005 07:30:13 PM
Christopher A. Lee wrote:

On 18 Dec 2005 13:21:20 -0800,

wrote:


The C14 tests were BADLY screwed up. They forgot to clean
off the micro-organisms which grow like mad on linen.


A lying Christian. What a surprise.

Ah,an accusation.
The burden of proof is on the ACCUSER.
So,prove I lied.

Some sort of radiation flash burn is the only possible explanation for
the negative image depicted in it.


Er, no, it was painted over a roughly human shaped block of wood
and was presented to a 14'th Century Papal cleric who stored it
away until it was recovered after a fire.

Actually,what produces the image is a very slight dehydration of
the surface of the fibers.


Actually, no. You forgot the paint.

Paint does NOT produce the primary image.
It could have been done with a hot metal
statue,I suppose.

Interestingly, ALL the images of Jesus face that we have eminate from
the shroud.


Er, no, the cultists who continue to believe in the Jesus mythos


A Jesus denier?


Nothing to deny, liar.

Ah,an accusation.
The burden of proof is on the ACCUSER.
So,prove I lied.


Historians tend to put them in same class as Holocaust diniers.


No they don't, liar.

Ah,an accusation.
The burden of proof is on the ACCUSER.
So,prove I lied.
Theyr'e regarded as KOOKS.
They admit there is no evidence outside the

Christian tradition apart from two disputed passages in Josephus.

You forgot TACITUS!
The Josephus passages are regarded as mostly real,
my most scholars,including Louis Feldman,Geza Vermes,
Paul Winter,and Schlomo Pines,who are JEWISH.
.
User: "Christopher A. Lee"

Title: Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fake... Whhhhaaaaat Ahhhhh Shhhhhhhock... 19 Dec 2005 01:51:38 AM
On 18 Dec 2005 17:30:13 -0800,
wrote:


Christopher A. Lee wrote:

On 18 Dec 2005 13:21:20 -0800,

wrote:


The C14 tests were BADLY screwed up. They forgot to clean
off the micro-organisms which grow like mad on linen.


A lying Christian. What a surprise.

Ah,an accusation.
The burden of proof is on the ACCUSER.
So,prove I lied.

Anything but a religious lunatic fringe sheet. This is a standard lie
by the fanatics. The labs have are not as stupid as you imagine. They
weren't back street amateurs.
http://www.mcri.org/Shroud.html

Some sort of radiation flash burn is the only possible explanation for
the negative image depicted in it.


Er, no, it was painted over a roughly human shaped block of wood
and was presented to a 14'th Century Papal cleric who stored it
away until it was recovered after a fire.

Actually,what produces the image is a very slight dehydration of
the surface of the fibers.


Actually, no. You forgot the paint.


Paint does NOT produce the primary image.
It could have been done with a hot metal
statue,I suppose.

Clutching at straws.
It is a medieval fake.
http://www.shroud.com/meacham2.htm
"It immediately began to draw large numbers of pilgrims to a modest
wooden church founded by the Shroud's owner and tended by six clergy
but in financial difficulties. Its exhibition was condemned by the
resident bishop, Hendrix de Poi tiers. His successor, Pierre dacoits,
compiled a memorandum in 1389 urging the pope to prohibit further
exhibitions of the relic because its fraudulent nature had been
discovered by de Poi tiers and an unnamed artist had confessed to
painting the image."

Interestingly, ALL the images of Jesus face that we have eminate from
the shroud.


Er, no, the cultists who continue to believe in the Jesus mythos


A Jesus denier?


Nothing to deny, liar.


Ah,an accusation.
The burden of proof is on the ACCUSER.
So,prove I lied.

"A Jesus denier?" There is literally nothing to deny in the real world
outside your religion.

You lied about people who have no reason whatsoever to treat your most
cherished belief as real. The word for somebody who lies, is "liar".
Which makes you one.

Historians tend to put them in same class as Holocaust diniers.


No they don't, liar.


Ah,an accusation.

Then don't accuse people who undrestand both history and reality
better than you do of being holocaust deniers.
This was a lie on your part. The word for somebody who lies, is
"liar". Which makes you one.

The burden of proof is on the ACCUSER.
So,prove I lied.

Theyr'e regarded as KOOKS.

I have done. The only kook here is the religious fanatic in denial
about the shroud being a medieval forgery to the extent that he lies
about the labs which tested it, lies about people outside his
religion, and accuses them of being like holocaust deniers.
This last was just plain, disgusting on your part as well as viciously
nasty.

They admit there is no evidence outside the
Christian tradition apart from two disputed passages in Josephus.


You forgot TACITUS!

Does the mere mention of the name Tacitus constitute evidence? Then
you have no idea what the word means.
I forgot nothing, liar. TACITUS DOES NOT MENTION JESUS. He mentions
Christians, which is hardly in dispute.

The Josephus passages are regarded as mostly real,
my most scholars,including Louis Feldman,Geza Vermes,
Paul Winter,and Schlomo Pines,who are JEWISH.

Only by wishful thinkers who can't grasp people recognising the
out-of-context and Christian nature of the insertion in the middle of
Jewish minutiae, by somebody who never converted to Christianity.

Why can't you idiots actually read this stuff before citing it to
people less gullible than you who unlike you have no axe to grind?
.
User: ""

Title: Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fake... Whhhhaaaaat Ahhhhh Shhhhhhhock... 19 Dec 2005 03:12:40 AM

You forgot TACITUS!


Does the mere mention of the name Tacitus constitute evidence? Then
you have no idea what the word means.

I forgot nothing, liar. TACITUS DOES NOT MENTION JESUS. He mentions
Christians, which is hardly in dispute.

You forgot this...
"...and he punished Christians,who were hated for thier enormities.
CHRISTUS,THE FOUNDER OF THE NAME,suffered the exrteme penalty
during the reign of Tiberius,at the hands of Pontius Pilatus,governor
of Judea."
Cornielius Tacitus
Annals of Imperial Rome
15,44
Now,you were not lying. You were just wrong.

The Josephus passages are regarded as mostly real,
my most scholars,including Louis Feldman,Geza Vermes,
Paul Winter,and Schlomo Pines,who are JEWISH.


Only by wishful thinkers who can't grasp people recognising the
out-of-context and Christian nature of the insertion in the middle of
Jewish minutiae, by somebody who never converted to Christianity.

Why can't you idiots actually read this stuff before citing it to
people less gullible than you who unlike you have no axe to grind?

Why can't you read what I wrote?
The scholars I mentioned are JEWISH!
.
User: ""

Title: Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fake... Whhhhaaaaat Ahhhhh Shhhhhhhock... 21 Dec 2005 12:58:58 PM
wrote:

You forgot TACITUS!


Does the mere mention of the name Tacitus constitute evidence? Then
you have no idea what the word means.

You didn't answer this. And the following doesn't mention Jesus.
Please learn to read.

I forgot nothing, liar. TACITUS DOES NOT MENTION JESUS. He mentions
Christians, which is hardly in dispute.

You forgot this...

I forgot nothing.
How does the merest mention of the name Tacitus constitute evidence?
Please point out where the following mentions Jesus. Hint: it doesn't.

"...and he punished Christians,who were hated for thier enormities.
CHRISTUS,THE FOUNDER OF THE NAME,suffered the exrteme penalty
during the reign of Tiberius,at the hands of Pontius Pilatus,governor
of Judea."
Cornielius Tacitus
Annals of Imperial Rome
15,44


Now,you were not lying. You were just wrong.

Now you ARE lying. I was correct. The poster just said "Tacitius" as
though mentioning the name was evidence. And I forgot nothing. He is
merely mentioning Christians and what the believe.

The Josephus passages are regarded as mostly real,

my most scholars,including Louis Feldman,Geza Vermes,
Paul Winter,and Schlomo Pines,who are JEWISH.


Only by wishful thinkers who can't grasp people recognising the
out-of-context and Christian nature of the insertion in the middle of
Jewish minutiae, by somebody who never converted to Christianity.

Why can't you idiots actually read this stuff before citing it to
people less gullible than you who unlike you have no axe to grind?



Why can't you read what I wrote?

I did.
Why can't YOU read what I wrote?

The scholars I mentioned are JEWISH!

Irrelevant. Did *Y*O*U* read the Josephus extract?
Why do you think a Jew would suddenly break into Christian language, in
a paragraph that is out of context with the surrounding material?
I don't give a toss that some "scholar" thinks there might be something
there originally that mentions him.
We need to know what they say and their reasons for saying it.
.
User: ""

Title: Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fake... Whhhhaaaaat Ahhhhh Shhhhhhhock... 21 Dec 2005 01:33:10 PM

Please point out where the following mentions Jesus. Hint: it doesn't.

"...and he punished Christians,who were hated for thier enormities.
CHRISTUS,THE FOUNDER OF THE NAME,suffered the exrteme penalty
during the reign of Tiberius,at the hands of Pontius Pilatus,governor
of Judea."
Cornielius Tacitus
Annals of Imperial Rome
15,44


Uh..."CHRISTUS [Christ],FOUNDER OF THE NAME"
Who else would that be?
DUH!

The Josephus passages are regarded as mostly real,

my most scholars,including Louis Feldman,Geza Vermes,
Paul Winter,and Schlomo Pines,who are JEWISH.


Only by wishful thinkers who can't grasp people recognising the
out-of-context and Christian nature of the insertion in the middle of
Jewish minutiae, by somebody who never converted to Christianity.

Why can't you idiots actually read this stuff before citing it to
people less gullible than you who unlike you have no axe to grind?



Why can't you read what I wrote?


I did.

Why can't YOU read what I wrote?

The scholars I mentioned are JEWISH!


Irrelevant. Did *Y*O*U* read the Josephus extract?

Yeah,and a few good articles on it.

Why do you think a Jew would suddenly break into Christian language, in
a paragraph that is out of context with the surrounding material?

It appears a few words were actually censored from it. "He was believed
to
be the Christ" became "He was the Christ". Read the articles.
Context? The account after the Jesus passage involves the seduction of
of an Egyptian priestess in Rome. How's that for out of context?

I don't give a toss that some "scholar" thinks there might be something
there originally that mentions him.

We need to know what they say and their reasons for saying it.

READ THE ARTICLES,CHRIS!
.

User: "EagleEye"

Title: Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fake... Whhhhaaaaat Ahhhhh Shhhhhhhock... 21 Dec 2005 04:35:52 PM
Question: Are Paul's letters considered to be historical documents, and
I don't mean just the testimony, but the letters themselves - were they
written by Paul and are they considered to be authentic?
.
User: "Gregory Gadow"

Title: Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fake...Whhhhaaaaat Ahhhhh Shhhhhhhock... 22 Dec 2005 09:10:17 AM
EagleEye wrote:

Question: Are Paul's letters considered to be historical documents, and
I don't mean just the testimony, but the letters themselves - were they
written by Paul and are they considered to be authentic?

Academic scholars (as opposed to theologians) usually group the Pauline
Epistles in to two groups. The first -- Romans, both Corinthians,
Galatians, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians and Philemon -- are consistent in
their use of language and for the most part, present a fairly consistent
doctrine. These letters appear to have been written by the same person
within a few years of each other, and there is no reason to dispute the
attribution to Paul of Tarsus.
The rest -- Ephesians, Colossians, 2 Thessalonians, both Timothys and Titus
-- show a great many differences in literary style and doctrinal content
from one another and from the letters in the first group. Although accepted
by theologians as also having been written by Paul, most academics have
concluded that they were written by a group of two to four (analyses
differ) other writers, none of whom were the author of the first group of
letters.
The other books in the Greek Scriptures -- the four Gospels, the Acts of
the Apostles, Hebrews, James, both Peters, the three Johns, Jude and
Revelations -- have never been attributed to Paul. As an side note, the
same type of analysis that divides Paul's letters in to two groups
concludes that the Gospel of Luke and the Acts of the Apostes were written
by the same person, just as the introduction to Acts says. There is no
evidence for or against this author being an early Greek convert by the
name of Lucas.
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"The President is merely the most important among a large number
of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to
the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct,
his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and
disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is
absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell
the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly
necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when
he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both
base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of
the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or
wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about
him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth,
pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else."
President Theodore Roosevelt, editorial to the Kansas City Star
May 7, 1918
.

User: "Michael Gray"

Title: Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fake... Whhhhaaaaat Ahhhhh Shhhhhhhock... 21 Dec 2005 05:25:13 PM
On 21 Dec 2005 14:35:52 -0800, "EagleEye"
<jnewton@globalmanagement.ca> wrote:

Question: Are Paul's letters considered to be historical documents, and
I don't mean just the testimony, but the letters themselves - were they
written by Paul and are they considered to be authentic?

Answer:
No, and No.
.
User: "EagleEye"

Title: Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fake... Whhhhaaaaat Ahhhhh Shhhhhhhock... 21 Dec 2005 08:00:34 PM

Answer:
No, and No.

Please clarify. What causes Paul's (Saul's) letters to be non-authentic?
.
User: "Michael Gray"

Title: Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fake... Whhhhaaaaat Ahhhhh Shhhhhhhock... 21 Dec 2005 11:24:10 PM
On 21 Dec 2005 18:00:34 -0800, "EagleEye"
<jnewton@globalmanagement.ca> wrote:

Answer:
No, and No.


Please clarify. What causes Paul's (Saul's) letters to be non-authentic?

That the "originals" are non-existent.
And the proof that there were any originals in existence at any point
in time, is non-existent.
All we have, is forgeries, written hundreds of years after.
They don't exist.
That's what makes them non-authentic.
.
User: "EagleEye"

Title: Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fake... Whhhhaaaaat Ahhhhh Shhhhhhhock... 22 Dec 2005 01:44:22 AM
But aren't they the most documented records from that period? And did
not the earliest copies exist 130 a.d., with the originals being
written down sometime around 40-100 a.d.?
For example:
Work When Written Earliest Copies
Time Span (yrs) No. of copies
Herodotus 488-428 b.c. 900 a.d.
1,300 8
Thucydides 460-400 b.c. 900 a.d.
1,300 8
Tacitus 100 a.d. 1100 a.d.
1,000 20
Ceaser's Gallic War 58-50 b.c. 900 a.d.
950 9-10
Livy's Roman History 59 b.c.-17 a.d. 900 a.d.
900 20
New Testament 40-100 a.d. 130 a.d.
_____________________________________(full manuscripts 300
5,000+ Greek 10,000 Latin 9,300 others
_________________________________________350 a.d.)
Don't know how that layout's going to work, but you get the idea.
Within the framework of textual historical criticism, the weight is
very hefty for the new testement's reliability, at least as far as
historical documentation goes, and the time frames involved,
comparatively, to other history from around the same generate time
period. To say it has no authenticity, is to say that nothing
whatsoever can be discerned from any historical record dating back to
around that time then..

Please clarify. What causes Paul's (Saul's) letters to be non-authentic?

That the "originals" are non-existent.
And the proof that there were any originals in existence at any point
in time, is non-existent.
All we have, is forgeries, written hundreds of years after.

I suppose the point that I was leading up to regarding Paul's (Saul's)
letters, in terms of their historical authenticity, as the preserved
writings of Paul himself, is that Paul makes reference in them, to
Peter, as a living contemporary of his, and he even dared to rebuke
Peter for buying into certain Jewish practices, like circumcision, and
the gospels themselves also appear to have Paul's mark on them, in
terms of certain insights about the Senhedrin and the inner circle
operations of the Pharisees.
So, if Paul's letters (and they may warrent another reading) accurately
reflect the original writings by him, and all indication is that they
do, then this means that his own tesimony and that of Peters regarding
the living Jesus, both pre and post resurrection intersect with Paul.
Now Paul as Saul obviously had a very profound spiritual experience
while on the way to doing his work persecuting the earliest Christians,
and would not seem to be the type to report such a thing, over and
again in his letters, given his station as a Jewish authority, even one
who presided over the stoning of Stephen (whom as I understand it was
actually a brother of Jesus), and neither does Paul appear to be the
insane delusional type, as a voracious student of the Law and it's
obligations, so that too shouts a certain authenticity.

They don't exist.
That's what makes them non-authentic.

But that's not true, they do. They are documents, copiously copied
historical documents which can be found in your Bible, presuming you do
HAVE one..
The words of Jesus, even if you only take a certain percentage of them
as having a high degree of authenticity, they too must be measured
relative to the whole package, in terms of a discernment of the
character speaking them, since given what he said and claimed about his
core being and true nature, as a sent person from God (calling), one
can only conclude one of three possibilities about him - either that he
was insane and a madman, or a liar and a bad man, OR, an honest man,
and a humble servant of the will of God as he understood God to be,
which was of spirit, and a will or an intent with consciousness, in
fact a being of perfect objective conscious awareness.
I don't think it can be written off so easily, upon closer and careful
inspection. There is definitely something to it, historically speaking.
And I don't think historians object any longer to the notion that Jesus
was a living historical character, with many things attributed to him,
including his own words, which describe a certain character, and state
of mind.
Either way, it, the whole story, is either infinately important, or of
no importance at all. It is either very meaningful and significant,
particularly when framed relative to the history from which the
narrative arose, or it has no meaning whatsoever.
IMO, framed historically, relative to the rest of the Biblical
narrative and history, it simply can't NOT have any meaning and
significance, and if it means anything at all, then by God it means
everything, and is of the utmost importance and significance.
Bottom line I think the athiest view on it, is very weak in many ways,
simply writing it all off as made up and of no historical meaning or
value whatsoever. That's a false view, and a denial it would seem..
.
User: "Michael Gray"

Title: Re: History Channel is going to expose the Shroud Of Urine as a fake... Whhhhaaaaat Ahhhhh Shhhhhhhock... 22 Dec 2005 02:44:18 AM
On 21 Dec 2005 23:44:22 -0800, "EagleEye"
<jnewton@globalmanagement.ca> wrote:

But aren't they the most documented records from that period? And did
not the earliest copies exist 130 a.d., with the originals being
written down sometime around 40-100 a.d.?

For example:

Work When Written Earliest Copies
Time Span (yrs) No. of copies

Herodotus 488-428 b.c. 900 a.d.
1,300 8
Thucydides 460-400 b.c. 900 a.d.
1,300 8
Tacitus 100 a.d. 1100 a.d.
1,000 20
Ceaser's Gallic War 58-50 b.c. 900 a.d.
950 9-10
Livy's Roman History 59 b.c.-17 a.d. 900 a.d.
900 20
New Testament 40-100 a.d. 130 a.d.
_____________________________________(full manuscripts 300
5,000+ Greek 10,000 Latin 9,300 others
_________________________________________350 a.d.)

I'll ignore the inaccuracies in that list for the while, and work on
the assumption that is essentially accurate, for the purposes of
debate.
You have just proved, in one fell swoop, that there are ZERO
contemporary documents to support any part of the N.T.
You do know what "contemporary" means, I take it?
These all purport to be "copies", in the most charitable use of the
term, or outright fabrications, in the main.
That's enough to support my proposition entirely, without anything
else.
Thankyou.
But I'll deem it worth my while to address your rather crude
arguments, nonetheless.
(I admit that this may well be a mistake).

Don't know how that layout's going to work, but you get the idea.
Within the framework of textual historical criticism, the weight is
very hefty for the new testement's reliability, at least as far as
historical documentation goes, and the time frames involved,
comparatively, to other history from around the same generate time
period. To say it has no authenticity, is to say that nothing
whatsoever can be discerned from any historical record dating back to
around that time then..

But I did not say that.
I said that no contemporary original documents exist, nor has any
trace of them ever been shown to exist.

Please clarify. What causes Paul's (Saul's) letters to be non-authentic?


That the "originals" are non-existent.
And the proof that there were any originals in existence at any point
in time, is non-existent.
All we have, is forgeries, written hundreds of years after.


I suppose the point that I was leading up to regarding Paul's (Saul's)
letters, in terms of their historical authenticity, as the preserved
writings of Paul himself, is that Paul makes reference in them, to
Peter, as a living contemporary of his, and he even dared to rebuke
Peter for buying into certain Jewish practices, like circumcision, and
the gospels themselves also appear to have Paul's mark on them, in
terms of certain insights about the Senhedrin and the inner circle
operations of the Pharisees.

So, if Paul's letters (and they may warrent another reading) accurately
reflect the original writings by him, and all indication is that they
do, then this means that his own tesimony and that of Peters regarding
the living Jesus, both pre and post resurrection intersect with Paul.

Now Paul as Saul obviously had a very profound spiritual experience
while on the way to doing his work persecuting the earliest Christians,
and would not seem to be the type to report such a thing, over and
again in his letters, given his station as a Jewish authority, even one
who presided over the stoning of Stephen (whom as I understand it was
actually a brother of Jesus), and neither does Paul appear to be the
insane delusional type, as a voracious student of the Law and it's
obligations, so that too shouts a certain authenticity.

All the above is circular reasoning, based on non-existent documents
supporting themselves.
In other words: wishing.
And I can dismiss it being quite irrelevant to the argument at hand.

They don't exist.
That's what makes them non-authentic.


But that's not true, they do. They are documents, copiously copied
historical documents which can be found in your Bible, presuming you do
HAVE one..

Oh, I have many.
In Hebrew, Greek, variants of English, and Aramaic.
I have read it countless times in each of those languages.
I have studied bible history since 1969.
You picked the wrong guy to goad with your schoolyard insults here,
mate.

The words of Jesus, even if you only take a certain percentage of them
as having a high degree of authenticity, they too must be measured
relative to the whole package, in terms of a discernment of the
character speaking them, since given what he said and claimed about his
core being and true nature, as a sent person from God (calling), one
can only conclude one of three possibilities about him - either that he
was insane and a madman, or a liar and a bad man, OR, an honest man,
and a humble servant of the will of God as he understood God to be,
which was of spirit, and a will or an intent with consciousness, in
fact a being of perfect objective conscious awareness.

Again, you base that on the assumption that Jesus existed, which is
highly doubtful.
Wishing again, supported by truly circular logic.
You don't seem to understand that it would be the same as me
suggesting that because Sherlock Holmes had many wise things to say,
that makes him real, and Dr. Watson an historian.
You are stretching logic to beyond it's breaking point, time and time
again.
Working the wrong way: using a conclusion to justify the premise that
it results from.

I don't think it can be written off so easily, upon closer and careful
inspection. There is definitely something to it, historically speaking.

Then show me the original contemporary documents that you base that
claim on.
I'll listen to you then.
As you showed initially, none can be dated before (around) 130AD.
And that is the earliest date that can be confidently assigned to it.
Many suggest that it was much later than that.
And that proclaims to have been written by John, who must have been
dead long ago, even by the most sympathetic interpretation.
And it does not mention Jesus, by the way.

And I don't think historians object any longer to the notion that Jesus
was a living historical character, with many things attributed to him,
including his own words, which describe a certain character, and state
of mind.

What you think about the matter does not change the fact that there is
ZERO contemporary evidence that he ever existed.
You cannot produce it.
No-one has been able to produce it.
Your quoting the bible, in oprder to support the bible, is a joke, not
evidence of anything else but your desperation to sheild a delusion.
As you have shown at the top, the New Testament has NO CONTEMPORARY
SUPPORT, whatsoever.

Either way, it, the whole story, is either infinately important, or of
no importance at all. It is either very meaningful and significant,
particularly when framed relative to the history from which the
narrative arose, or it has no meaning whatsoever.

Eh?

IMO, framed historically, relative to the rest of the Biblical
narrative and history, it simply can't NOT have any meaning and
significance, and if it means anything at all, then by God it means
everything, and is of the utmost importance and significance.

I wasn't saying anything about the forgery's profundity.
You seem to have a short attention span.
Perhaps you should have just left it at the table of dates that you
supplied.
That said it all.

Bottom line I think the athiest view on it, is very weak in many ways,
simply writing it all off as made up and of no historical meaning or
value whatsoever. That's a false view, and a denial it would seem..

You like making straw men, don't you?
Address the issue, if you are able to stay focussed for that long.
As I say to all of your theistic ilk.
It's simple.
Just show me the contemporary evidence for the veracity of your New
Testament, and I will both apologise, and shut-up.
No need for 56 page diatribes.
A single link will do.
If your response to this is more than 5 lines long, I will know that
you do not have it, and will have resorted to more illogical circular
reasoning, which seems to hold some particular fascination for you.
(And if the only written evidence supporting even just one bit of the
N.T. exists, but does not appear on the internet, that would be both a
pity, and a very real shock.
You'd have to tell me what library it was in.)
.













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