On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 10:43:00 -0500, while scaling the
Mt. Everest, "Cindy" <truth@nospam.com> pontificated:

: You keep posting the same nonsensical post and claim
: that you have proven something. Whatever.
:

And without addressing it, you just keep repeating yourself as if your
mouth is the standard of Proof, which is your usual tactic.

Note how I answered your questions in the following post and how you
just became a Despot babbling how I didn't:

And you failed to note my response and you fail to note
that you only responded after I pointed out that you
people ran away and I ended the challenge. Note the
subject line of the message you responded to (quoted by
you below). It is, "CHALLENGE OVER WITH". I waited
and waited for you people and you wouldn't defend your
belief system. Then when you figured I was ending it,
you came in with some web page quote and then acted
like you had just dropped the Atom Bomb on me or
something. How pathetic.

The fact is, that you were supposed to tell us IN YOUR
OWN WORDS why I was wrong and prove it with Scripture
and YOUR OWN explanation. What you actually did, was
quote a web site, which was strictly forbidden in the
rules of the challenge.

http://biblicalstudies.qldwide.net.au/03_revelation.html


As I said, I am not debating THEM. I am debating YOU
and if YOU cannot defend your belief system YOURSELF,
then you have no real foundation for it. You simply
latch on to what others says and you think that a fair
debate equates to you spending one minute pasting in a
web page, while I spend hours responding, just so you
can do the same thing again. You knew the rules and
responded as you did anyway. You are a liar who cannot
defend her beliefs. Never-the-less, I have written a
quick response to a portion of it, for the benefit of
others, since if I can disprove one part of it, that
should give one a reason to question the rest of it.

From: Cindy (Cynthia@localline.com)
Subject: Re: CHALLENGE OVER WITH - - - - PTL- - - -
Newsgroups: alt.bible.prophecy, alt.christnet.christianlife
Date: 2004-06-19 07:46:43 PST


"Pastor Dave" <nospam*-*pastordave38@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mvd8d0hojbsa24hreqv0oi7u0r54ujdp6s@4ax.com...

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:51:41 -0500, "Cindy"
<Cynthia@localline.com> posted thusly:

The fourth Kingdom is described in much
detail throughout Daniel and Revelation
Both, and it is Rome.

The fourth kingdom came to power and fell
a long time ago.

Do you know making yourself into your own god is idolotry?

You seem to think your words are absolute truth,
so in all honesty you are a Despot.
No insult intended, just fact.

So you claim. Yet you ignore history.

Daniel's prophecy covered a time from when he lived, up
to Christ and the 3 1/2 years immediately following and
the kingdom that was in place when Daniel made the
prophecy, must be counted, which is why he said, "Thou
art this head of gold.", when telling Nebuchadnezzar
the interpretation of the dream he had. The first
kingdom was Nebuchadnezzars.

The four kingdoms are as follows...

1) Head of gold = Babylon
2) Breast and arms of silver = Medo-Persia
3) Belly and thighs of brass = Greece
4) Legs of iron and feet of clay and iron = Rome

Why ignore history, or skip over a kingdom, in order to
promote the idea that Rome will rise again and is in
the list twice? Did Daniel say, "three kingdoms and
one will rise twice"? No, he didn't.

It is described here:
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not;
and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into
perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder,
whose names were not written in the book of life from
the foundation of the world, when they behold the
beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
And yes this IS described in Daniel 11.

That is your claim and you also claim that it is a
kingdom that appears in our future. The fact is, the
destruction of Rome as the 4th kingdom had not happened
by the time John wrote Revelation, so you've said
nothing by quoting this from Revelation.

I also note that you think just quoting a passage means
you have proven something. You must also tell us why
it is that it means some future Roman kingdom. You
have not demonstrated that to be the case.

He said there
would be four kingdoms, with the first one being
Babylon, which existed at the time he explained the
dream to Nebuchadnezzar ("Thou art this head of
gold."). But let me guess... we need to skip anything
in history that fits, because to look at actual
history, would mean that the prophecy wasn't written
about YOUR generation and that would crush your ego.

What are you babblin on about now?

This is what you call Biblical debate?

Dan 2
44And in the days of these kings shall the God
of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never
be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left
to other people, [but] it shall break in pieces and
consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand
for ever.
45Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was
cut out of the mountain without hands, and that
it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay,
the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made
known to the king what shall come to pass
hereafter: and the dream [is] certain, and the
interpretation thereof sure.

Jesus set up his Kingdom, but all is not over until
he inherits his Kingdom in the New Earth.

Once again, you quote passages and give no refutation
of what I said. When Daniel prophesied, Rome did not
even exist yet and Rome was the 4th kingdom and it is
now gone. This passage above does not prove a thing.
You quoted Daniel and then added your own words,
CLAIMING Jesus has to set up an Earthly kingdom, but
that isn't what Daniel says in the passage you quoted
above. Where does Daniel say, "future physical kingdom
on Earth"? He doesn't. Jesus said His kingdom is not
of this world, but you keep insisting that it will be.

People like you make the same mistake as the Pharisees
did in the first century, who looked for and demanded a
physical on Earth kingdom. Yet Jesus said in response
to that...

Luke 17:20-21

20) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the
kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said,
The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Note that the Pharisees wanted to know when the Kingdom
of God would come to the Earth.

Now what was Jesus' response???

"The Kingdom of God cometh NOT WITH OBSERVATION"!!!

I.e., YOU WON'T SEE IT, CINDY!!!


21) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for,
behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The Kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU.

Now that was a direct answer to your claims, which were
the same mistaken claims that the Jews made. Don't you
get it? The Jews looked for a physical ruler Messiah
and a physical King on Earth. Yet the Messiah died on
a cross and said that His Kingdom was "not of this
world" to Pilate, or His army would fight here. Yet it
didn't, because this world is not where His kingdom is.

Jesus did not come here to rule the world, nor is He
coming here to set up some physical Kingdom, rebuilding
the Temple that He made sure was destroyed in 70 A.D..
You've got Jesus once again erecting the Old ways and
sacrifice going on again. Do you not see what you are
saying? You are trying to erase Jesus' work, by trying
to make Him backpeddle to the Old Covenant. But then
again, that's where you like it.

The bottom line is, that looking for a physical Kingdom
ion Earth was the mistake that the Pharisees, etc. made
back then and people today are making the same mistake.

Now how do you reconcile Jesus' words here, with your
claim?

More in Daniel about this 4th Kingdom and christs's second coming:

Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions,
and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible,
and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron
teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped
the residue with the feet of it: and it [was] diverse
from all the beasts that [were] before it; and it had
ten horns.
Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold,
there came up among them another little horn,
before whom there were three of the first horns
plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn
[were] eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth
speaking great things.
Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down,
and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was]
white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure
wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his
wheels [as] burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth
from before him: thousand thousands ministered
unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand
stood before him: the judgment was set, and the
books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice
of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld
[even] till the beast was slain, and his body
destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts,
they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives
were prolonged for a season and time.

You have given zero explanation as to EXACTLY what you
are claiming this means. Anyone can post a bunch of
passages. That doesn't prove a thing. Does the pastor
of your church get up there on Sunday, read a few
passages and tell everyone to go home? Of course not.
He knows that in order to get a message across, a
detailed explanation of what he believes the passages
are saying is required.

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold,
[one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of
heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they
brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion,
and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations,
and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is]
an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.

This is where you make a huge mistake. This says
nothing about the second coming of Christ. It talks
about Christ going up, not coming down. It says He
went *TO* the Ancient of Days (which is the Father),
not that He came FROM the Ancient of Days, to Earth.

As for Christ's dominion, it says that happened when He
came TO the Ancient of Days. And His kingdom never
ends, I agree. But He already "came *TO* the Ancient
of Days", unless you're claiming that He's caught in
limbo, somewhere between Earth and Heaven?

The fourth Kingdom was to continue till Christs second
coming after the judgment, which is clearly defined in
Daniel and Revelation.

Since Jesus already came, that isn't an issue. But you
see, you just shot yourself in the foot. You claim
that the 4th kingdom had top continue until Christ's
coming. If that is true, then how is it that the Roman
Empire was defeated? After all, that would end that
kingdom.

Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth
from before him: thousand thousands ministered
unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand
stood before him: the judgment was set, and the
books were opened.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my
reward [is] with me, to give every man according
as his work shall be.

Once again, what does this prove in relation to your
claim that this has not happened yet?

You snipped this part out of my other post try
as you may you cannot make this truth Go away:

What truth?

"The Final Promise. -- The promise of supping
with his disciples is made by the Lord before
the final promise to the overcomer is given.
This shows that the blessings included in that
promise are to be enjoyed in this probationary
state.

Where does the Bible teach a "probationary state"?
What are you talking about?

And now, superadded to all these, is the promise
to the overcomer: "To him that overcometh will I
grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also
overcame, and am set down with my Father in his
throne." Here the promises of the Lord culminate.

So now you're saying that God's throne is here on
Earth? Then how is it that the Son of Man came *TO*
the Ancient of Days in Heaven and received dominion
THERE?

From being at first rebellious, and then fallen,
degraded, and polluted, man is brought by the
work of the Redeemer back into reconciliation
with God,

That happens when we are born again.

cleansed from his pollutions, redeemed from the fall,
made immortal, and finally raised to a seat upon the
very throne of his Saviour. Honor and exaltation could
go no farther. Human minds cannot conceive that
state, human language cannot describe it. We can
only labor on till, if overcomers at last, we shall "know
what it is to be there." p. 380, Para. 2.

Your web quote doesn't help you. You are making
claims. You are not demonstrating this belief
Scripturally. You are claiming we are "made immortal",
yet you would have us waiting in Hades for the
resurrection. That doesn't make sense.

In this verse there is not only a glorious promise, but
there is also an important doctrine. We learn by this
that Christ reigns consecutively upon two thrones.

We learn from what? From some book you quoted from?
You're not making sense here. Now you're straying away
from the Bible and going into some man made doctrine.

One is the throne of his Father, the other is his own
throne. He declares in this verse that he has overcome,
and is now set down with his Father in his throne. He is
now associated with the Father in the throne of
universal dominion, placed at his right hand, far above
all principality, power, might, and dominion. Eph. 1:20-22, etc.

And yet, Paul states happened when Jesus was
resurrected.


<snip rest of web page quote>


Now I will not discuss this any further with you,
unless you can get honest and stop pretending that we
page quotes equates to you defending your belief
system. All you wish to do, is spend one minute
pasting in text and then make me type for hours. I'm
sorry, I will not fall for your deception. If YOU
can't back up YOUR belief system, then at least have
the integrity to admit it.