| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" |
| Date: |
12 Jan 2006 08:07:52 AM |
| Object: |
Re: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God |
::: vera ::: wrote:
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was
and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8)
::: vera :::
____________________________________________________
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de :::::::
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm :::::::
::::::: http://www.e-sword.net :::::::
Amen and amen :-)
May the LORD continue to bless you, dear Vera whom I love, in Jesus'
most precious and holy name.
Amen :-))
Now this is about the works of the four riders on horseback from the
6th chapter of the Book of Revelation (we are now in the 6th year into
the third millenium after the birth of the Son of Man)
(1) Crowned rider wielding a bow and riding a white horse:
"See you on the other side. It's not bad. We are just going to
sleep." - missive (missile) from one of 12 born-again Christian miners
who gave up their lives to save the youngest among them after being
trapped by an explosion in a W.Va mine.
(2) Rider wielding a sword and riding a fiery red horse:
Ariel Sharon, the world's hope for lasting peace in the middle east,
suffers a massive bleeding stroke. Violence and bloodshed in Iraq
escalates. U.S. now less likely to pull out of Iraq anytime soon.
(3) Rider wielding a set of food scales and riding a black horse:
The rate of increase of the number of people worldwide using the
2PD-OMER Approach (which advocates the use of food scales) accelerates
with growing worldwide concerns about the obesity epidemic:
http://www.HeartMDPhD.com/wtloss.asp
(4) Rider on a pale horse given the authority to kill a fourth of the
world's population "by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts
of the earth":
The H5N1 Avian Flu Pandemic is here:
http://tinyurl.com/amj4a
Yes, the migratory birds spreading H5N1 virus are wild beasts of the
earth.
Would be more than happy to "glow" and chat about this and other things
like cardiology, diabetes and nutrition that interest those following
this thread here during the next on-line chat (01/12/06) from 6 to 7 pm
EST:
http://tinyurl.com/cpayh
For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for
how the LORD has reshaped me:
http://tinyurl.com/bgfqt
Prayerfully in Christ's love,
Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/b6xwk
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| User: "David H." |
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| Title: Re: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God |
12 Jan 2006 09:29:40 AM |
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"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <nospam13@heartmdphd.com> wrote in message
news:1137074872.679612.144060@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
::: vera ::: wrote:
<snip>
Folks, I have Goosebumps after reading this.
Anyone out there that has a doctor like this needs to run in the
opposite direction as fast as you can. Even some of you "believers" out
there have to realize that a doctor with this much of his critical
thinking obscured by this religious drug he is on cannot be operating at
full intellectual capacity. ( Which in my opinion is needed for *anyone*
who holds the lives of others in their hands).
It scares me that this guy isn't thinking about solutions, he is
praying for them.
David H.
aa #2217
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| User: "cardfan" |
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| Title: Re: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God |
12 Jan 2006 11:58:58 AM |
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David H. Um, I dont think that having a doctorate from the billy bobs
bible college really counts as being a doctor.
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| User: "Steve Knight" |
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| Title: Re: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God |
12 Jan 2006 08:14:24 PM |
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On 12 Jan 2006 09:58:58 -0800, "cardfan" <cardfan@gmail.com> wrote:
David H. Um, I dont think that having a doctorate from the billy bobs
bible college really counts as being a doctor.
All 'doctorates' in theology are the equivalent of 'Billy bob bible
college'.
They set themselves up as being educated. When in fact, it's
superstitions need for respect.
Gee whiz... you have a 'Dr.' with your name. you must be respected
and believed.
The word 'Doctor' means nothing in reality when it comes to the
religious. As usual, they commandeer a word and use it for their
fantasy agenda to gain false respect.
Warlord Steve
BAAWA
www.sonic.net/~wooly
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| User: "Willy" |
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| Title: Re: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God |
13 Jan 2006 10:26:42 AM |
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"Steve Knight" <wooly@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:6f2es19h11avjcenfv3lg8tg1ug7v37hdc@4ax.com...
On 12 Jan 2006 09:58:58 -0800, "cardfan" <cardfan@gmail.com> wrote:
David H. Um, I dont think that having a doctorate from the billy bobs
bible college really counts as being a doctor.
All 'doctorates' in theology are the equivalent of 'Billy bob bible
college'.
They set themselves up as being educated. When in fact, it's
superstitions need for respect.
Gee whiz... you have a 'Dr.' with your name. you must be respected
and believed.
The word 'Doctor' means nothing in reality when it comes to the
religious. As usual, they commandeer a word and use it for their
fantasy agenda to gain false respect.
Warlord Steve
BAAWA
www.sonic.net/~wooly
You obviously have no appreciation for a person that was willing to spend
hundreds / thousands of hours in Biblical and historical study in order to
gain such a degree. You'd rather run with what you've been taught by those
with less, or perhaps your own theology?
Willy
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| User: "Steve Knight" |
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| Title: Re: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God |
13 Jan 2006 08:22:42 PM |
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On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:26:42 GMT, "Willy" <willyk@prodigy.net> wrote:
"Steve Knight" <wooly@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:6f2es19h11avjcenfv3lg8tg1ug7v37hdc@4ax.com...
On 12 Jan 2006 09:58:58 -0800, "cardfan" <cardfan@gmail.com> wrote:
David H. Um, I dont think that having a doctorate from the billy bobs
bible college really counts as being a doctor.
All 'doctorates' in theology are the equivalent of 'Billy bob bible
college'.
They set themselves up as being educated. When in fact, it's
superstitions need for respect.
Gee whiz... you have a 'Dr.' with your name. you must be respected
and believed.
The word 'Doctor' means nothing in reality when it comes to the
religious. As usual, they commandeer a word and use it for their
fantasy agenda to gain false respect.
You obviously have no appreciation for a person that was willing to spend
hundreds / thousands of hours in Biblical and historical study in order to
gain such a degree.
I can see it as part of a literary degree but as a stand alone
doctorate.............. it's a waste. Giving doctorates for theology
is the same for giving ones in ghost hunting, leprechauns and pink
flying sheep. The evidence is exactly the same.
You don't see the wacky Wiccans getting degrees in Mother Earth.
You do see idiots believing in Magic Pixies In The Air getting them.
Warlord Steve
BAAWA
www.sonic.net/~wooly
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| User: "Willy" |
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| Title: Re: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God |
14 Jan 2006 01:13:29 PM |
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"Steve Knight" <wooly@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:cumgs1t02ri0jvfj233ea54rmbt2c60dft@4ax.com...
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:26:42 GMT, "Willy" <willyk@prodigy.net> wrote:
"Steve Knight" <wooly@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:6f2es19h11avjcenfv3lg8tg1ug7v37hdc@4ax.com...
On 12 Jan 2006 09:58:58 -0800, "cardfan" <cardfan@gmail.com> wrote:
David H. Um, I dont think that having a doctorate from the billy bobs
bible college really counts as being a doctor.
All 'doctorates' in theology are the equivalent of 'Billy bob bible
college'.
They set themselves up as being educated. When in fact, it's
superstitions need for respect.
Gee whiz... you have a 'Dr.' with your name. you must be respected
and believed.
The word 'Doctor' means nothing in reality when it comes to the
religious. As usual, they commandeer a word and use it for their
fantasy agenda to gain false respect.
You obviously have no appreciation for a person that was willing to spend
hundreds / thousands of hours in Biblical and historical study in order to
gain such a degree.
I can see it as part of a literary degree but as a stand alone
doctorate.............. it's a waste. Giving doctorates for theology
is the same for giving ones in ghost hunting, leprechauns and pink
flying sheep. The evidence is exactly the same.
You don't see the wacky Wiccans getting degrees in Mother Earth.
You do see idiots believing in Magic Pixies In The Air getting them.
Warlord Steve
BAAWA
www.sonic.net/~wooly
I'm not sure why you would be so opposed to biblical knowledge, especially
those willing to venture into a "higher criticism" where one really has to
open the mind to the reality of mythology, historical revelation and
historical fact.
If you choose not to believe in God, that of course if your perogative,
however, for those of us who do believe in a God being, studying the
historical recount of ancient times helps us to understand the misconstrued
and man made doctrinalization of our current society.
Willy
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God |
14 Jan 2006 01:28:06 PM |
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On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 19:13:29 GMT, "Willy" <willyk@prodigy.net> wrote:
If you choose not to believe in God, that of course if your perogative,
however, for those of us who do believe in a God being, studying the
historical recount of ancient times helps us to understand the misconstrued
and man made doctrinalization of our current society.
What makes you think there's a choice?
From outside your region it's merely somebody else's wacky religious
belief. The only difference from Zeus, Mithras, Krishna , Odin and all
the others being that its followers have neither the intelligence nor
courtesy to grasp this and insist on talking at us as though it were
universally granted.
Willy
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| User: "Steve Knight" |
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| Title: Re: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God |
14 Jan 2006 08:18:43 PM |
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On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 19:13:29 GMT, "Willy" <willyk@prodigy.net> wrote:
snip
"Steve Knight" <wooly@sonic.net> wrote in message
You don't see the wacky Wiccans getting degrees in Mother Earth.
You do see idiots believing in Magic Pixies In The Air getting them.
I'm not sure why you would be so opposed to biblical knowledge, especially
those willing to venture into a "higher criticism" where one really has to
open the mind to the reality of mythology, historical revelation and
historical fact.
If you choose not to believe in God, that of course if your perogative,
however, for those of us who do believe in a God being, studying the
historical recount of ancient times helps us to understand the misconstrued
and man made doctrinalization of our current society.
You can't grasp the content. A stand alone degree in superstition
is worthless. It has no merit or authority. Giving doctorates for it
is a sham.
It's another case of superstition trying to give itself
respectability through academic means. It has achieved that goal. Go
to any Nobel Prize award and you will see all sorts of Shaman in
presence. They're there to ride the 'respectability coattail'.
You're not an atheist so you can't see the folly and utter
stupidity of religious antics.
Warlord Steve
BAAWA
www.sonic.net/~wooly
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| User: "Wunderkind" |
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| Title: Re: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God |
13 Jan 2006 07:43:53 PM |
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Willy wrote:
"Steve Knight" <wooly@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:6f2es19h11avjcenfv3lg8tg1ug7v37hdc@4ax.com...
On 12 Jan 2006 09:58:58 -0800, "cardfan" <cardfan@gmail.com> wrote:
David H. Um, I dont think that having a doctorate from the billy bobs
bible college really counts as being a doctor.
All 'doctorates' in theology are the equivalent of 'Billy bob bible
college'.
They set themselves up as being educated. When in fact, it's
superstitions need for respect.
Gee whiz... you have a 'Dr.' with your name. you must be respected
and believed.
The word 'Doctor' means nothing in reality when it comes to the
religious. As usual, they commandeer a word and use it for their
fantasy agenda to gain false respect.
Warlord Steve
BAAWA
www.sonic.net/~wooly
You obviously have no appreciation for a person that was willing to spend
hundreds / thousands of hours in Biblical and historical study in order to
gain such a degree. You'd rather run with what you've been taught by those
with less, or perhaps your own theology?
Better yet no theology. As the ancients said, who knows the mind of Man,
much less the mind of the Gods?
WK
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| User: "Willy" |
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| Title: Re: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God |
14 Jan 2006 01:13:29 PM |
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"Wunderkind" <a@b.com> wrote in message
news:tHYxf.584$or4.580@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
Willy wrote:
"Steve Knight" <wooly@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:6f2es19h11avjcenfv3lg8tg1ug7v37hdc@4ax.com...
On 12 Jan 2006 09:58:58 -0800, "cardfan" <cardfan@gmail.com> wrote:
David H. Um, I dont think that having a doctorate from the billy bobs
bible college really counts as being a doctor.
All 'doctorates' in theology are the equivalent of 'Billy bob bible
college'.
They set themselves up as being educated. When in fact, it's
superstitions need for respect.
Gee whiz... you have a 'Dr.' with your name. you must be respected
and believed.
The word 'Doctor' means nothing in reality when it comes to the
religious. As usual, they commandeer a word and use it for their
fantasy agenda to gain false respect.
Warlord Steve
BAAWA
www.sonic.net/~wooly
You obviously have no appreciation for a person that was willing to spend
hundreds / thousands of hours in Biblical and historical study in order
to gain such a degree. You'd rather run with what you've been taught by
those with less, or perhaps your own theology?
Better yet no theology. As the ancients said, who knows the mind of Man,
much less the mind of the Gods?
WK
yes, that's right. Ignorance truly IS bliss.
Willy
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| User: "Wunderkind" |
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| Title: Re: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God |
13 Jan 2006 07:42:52 PM |
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Steve Knight wrote:
On 12 Jan 2006 09:58:58 -0800, "cardfan" <cardfan@gmail.com> wrote:
David H. Um, I dont think that having a doctorate from the billy bobs
bible college really counts as being a doctor.
All 'doctorates' in theology are the equivalent of 'Billy bob bible
college'.
They set themselves up as being educated. When in fact, it's
superstitions need for respect.
Gee whiz... you have a 'Dr.' with your name. you must be respected
and believed.
The word 'Doctor' means nothing in reality when it comes to the
religious. As usual, they commandeer a word and use it for their
fantasy agenda to gain false respect.
Does a "D.Div." (Doctor of Divinity) holder place him or herself on a
par with god?
WK
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| User: "Willy" |
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| Title: Re: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God |
14 Jan 2006 01:13:29 PM |
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Does a "D.Div." (Doctor of Divinity) holder place him or herself on a
par with god?
WK
That's a foolish thought. One more one studies, the more one realizes how
big God really is.
Willy
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God |
14 Jan 2006 01:28:31 PM |
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On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 19:13:29 GMT, "Willy" <willyk@prodigy.net> wrote:
Does a "D.Div." (Doctor of Divinity) holder place him or herself on a
par with god?
WK
That's a foolish thought. One more one studies, the more one realizes how
big God really is.
Only if one is brainwashed.
Willy
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God |
14 Jan 2006 06:08:28 PM |
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Willy wrote:
Does a "D.Div." (Doctor of Divinity) holder place him or herself on a
par with god?
WK
That's a foolish thought. One more one studies, the more one realizes
how big God really is.
If youIS THERE A GOD?
Strong Atheism's answer.
A BASIC DEFINITION OF GOD.
The general overarching definition of god as per
the major religions of the world is:
A. God is personal, God has will and consciousness.
B. God has free will.
C. God is the creator of all.
D. God is omnipotent.
E. God is omnibenevolent.
F. God is omniscient.
G. God is that which nothing more powerful
can be imagined.
These are the basic attributes that can be claimed
for the god of orthodox Judaism, Christianity,
Islam, and Hinduism.
Omnibenevolence and omniscience are actually
logically derivable from the claimed attribute of
omnipotence and so aren't not truly independent
attributes, and may be considered special aspects
of omnipotence.
There are other attributes of god, that he is the
only such god, that he is is immortal and that
god has always existed that are not important
for this discussion and for now, can be ignored.
They are secondary arguments and are for the most
part not foundational or truly necessary, except
those that can be logically derived from the
attributes listed above.
A CLASS OF GODS
It is important to note here that this is a
definition not for a particular god, but an
entire class of gods.
Sub-theories about god are not important here.
Christianity claims one may attain salvation
only through Jesus, Islam claims the Christian
dogma that Jesus was the son of god is
blasphemous.
Ideas like this though, are of little importance
to the overarching and general claims made for a
personal, creator, omni-everything god. I have
coined a term, The Grand God of Grand Theologies
for this sort of god, this sort of theological
system of expansive claims for god.
Grand theologies are those theologies that have
adopted this class of god as their basic
attributes concerning the nature of god. But it
is important to remember here that what is being
discussed here is a class of gods, not particular
gods or specific gods.
THE FOUR GREAT THEOLOGICAL TRADITIONS
Again, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism hold
to this basic Grand God and are typical Grand
Theologies holding to this basic class of god as
their basic definitions of what god is at god's
most basic level.
A big problem with this class of gods is, it
collapses rather easily into internal self-
contradiction.
THE PROBLEM OF EVIL.
The problem of evil was first written down by
Epicurus in about the third century BCE.
Today's formulation is:
A. God is defined as omnipotent;
B. and as omnibenevolent.
C. Evil exists.
D. God therefore, is not omnipotent as claimed.
E. Or God is not omnibenevolent as claimed.
F. Or god is neither omnipotent or
omnibenevolent.
G. Or god is not existant.
THE FREE WILL DEFENSE
The free will defense of the problem of evil goes
back to St. Augustine who popularized it. It is
still popular, and is championed most notably
today by Alvin Plantinga, but also by other
theologians.
God gave man free will. Man freely chooses to do
evil. Ability to do evil is less evil than
lacking free will.
THE FREE WILL DEFENSE DEBUNKED.
God has free will.
God is omnibenevolent, he has a good nature
incapable of doing evil.
A. If god can have free will, and a good nature,
this good nature is not allowed to count
against god's free will.
B. Nor is god's lack of ability to do evil
allowed to count against god's omnipotence.
C. Likewise, man could easily have a god like
free will and a god like good nature.
D. Inabilty then to do evil would no more count
against man's free will than it does for god's
free will.
E. If so, it also counts against god's free will
and god does not have free will as claimed.
F. If god does not have absolute and total free
will, thus free will is not a true necessity
at all.
F. If god is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, and
can give man a god like free will and a
god-like good nature incapable of moral evil,
god must do so or god is not moral, not
omnibenevolent.
G. Evil exists because he allows it to.
So free will does not exist, or it does and we can
have a god like free will and a god like good
nature. Either way, free will cannot explain away
the existence of evil. This free will defense
then, is a failed argument.
OMNISCIENCE VERSUS CREATORHOOD OF GOD
God is defined as creator of all in most
religions.
And god is claimed to be omniscient, all knowing.
A. God created the Universe and all in it.
B. God is omniscient, all knowing, he knows all
in the Universe and he knows the future of the
Universe and its contents.
C. If god creates a Universe, he will know that
in 13 billion years this Universe will have a
man named John Smith in it.
D. If John Smith is good and saved, or evil and
damned, God will know that.
E. As he knows that the Universe in its present
state will have a John Smith, god may then
contemplate the future state of Smith and
decide if he will tolerate an evil Smith.
F. If yes, Smith will be evil only because of a
specific personal and will choice made solely
by god.
G. If Smith is evil, then evil exists solely
because of a choice made by god. In fact all
moral evil done by creations of god will be
evil and do evil only because of personal and
willful creations of god allowing evil acts
to be done, by direct decision of god.
H. If evil exists in a world with an omniscient
creator god, it is solely and only because
god allows evil.
I. If evil exists solely because of personal
choices of god, god then is not as defined,
omnibenevolent.
J. Man and any other sentient being in such a
Universe cannot have any free will, not even
in principle. A Universe with a god that
creates all and knows all precludes free will
for all beings god creates in the strongest
possible manner.
The Grand God of Grand
Theology is thus self destroying, it is
incoherent and contradictory as a theory.
THE SITUATION SO FAR.
1. A minimalistic class of gods is defined, this
Grand God has been defined here with as few
terms as possible.
2. The problem of evil dooms such a claimed god.
3. The attempted defense, free will is fatally
flawed. God's good nature and free will doom
claims free will makes evil necessary for man
to have free will.
4. Omniscience and creatorhood of god further
doom claims of god's omnibenevolence and
man's free will free will cannot exist for
man. All evil is the direct and knowing
creation of god contradicting claims of
omnibenevolence.
5. Since Free will for man is totally impossible,
free will cannot be a good quality, much less
necessary.
Here, the Grand God of Grand Theology has
collapsed. As has Grand
Theology. As pointed out, this destroys the claims
and viability of an entire class of possible
gods,
all secondary and tertiary claims for such a god
of
this class also fail, as do dogmas or secondary
or tertiary claims.
If a these Grand Gods cannot exist as defined,
specific gods cannot, nor can claims such as this
or that Grand God sent this or that revelation to
man or some prophet or did this or that.
God is thus disproven and is utter irrelevant
to anything real and existant.
***********
still think god can exist, you haven't been studying god.
--
"I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with
a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor was I
willing to go to Canada. So I chose to better
myself by learning how to fly airplanes."
-- George W. Bush - [Houston Chronicle, 5/8/94]
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "BoboBonobo" |
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| Title: Re: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God |
12 Jan 2006 01:01:34 PM |
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cardfan wrote:
David H. Um, I dont think that having a doctorate from the billy bobs
bible college really counts as being a doctor.
He has an M.D.
--Bryan
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| User: "erikc" |
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| Title: Re: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God |
12 Jan 2006 12:43:57 PM |
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On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:29:40 GMT, "David H."
<davidhaapala@sbcglobal.fart.not.net> wrote:
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <nospam13@heartmdphd.com> wrote in message
news:1137074872.679612.144060@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
::: vera ::: wrote:
<snip>
Folks, I have Goosebumps after reading this.
Anyone out there that has a doctor like this needs to run in the
opposite direction as fast as you can. Even some of you "believers" out
there have to realize that a doctor with this much of his critical
thinking obscured by this religious drug he is on cannot be operating at
full intellectual capacity. ( Which in my opinion is needed for *anyone*
who holds the lives of others in their hands).
It scares me that this guy isn't thinking about solutions, he is
praying for them.
David H.
aa #2217
He sounds like a potential "Dr. Mengele".
Erikc (alt.atheist #002) | "An Fhirinne in aghaidh an tSaoil."
BAAWA Knight (retired) | "The Truth against the World."
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God |
12 Jan 2006 01:59:50 PM |
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on 12 Jan 2006 in alt.atheism, dear sweet David H.
(davidhaapala@sbcglobal.fart.not.net) made the light shine upon us with
this:
Folks, I have Goosebumps after reading this.
Anyone out there that has a doctor like this needs to run in the
opposite direction as fast as you can. Even some of you "believers"
out there have to realize that a doctor with this much of his
critical thinking obscured by this religious drug he is on cannot be
operating at full intellectual capacity. ( Which in my opinion is
needed for *anyone* who holds the lives of others in their hands).
It scares me that this guy isn't thinking about solutions, he is
praying for them.
I can just see him standing there, holding the scalpel, calmly waiting for
God to take over...
--
Uncle Vic
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
Official alt.wisdom HELLBOY
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| User: "kathryn" |
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| Title: Re: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God |
12 Jan 2006 12:41:13 PM |
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"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <nospam13@heartmdphd.com> wrote in message
news:1137074872.679612.144060@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
::: vera ::: wrote:
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was
and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8)
::: vera :::
____________________________________________________
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de :::::::
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm :::::::
::::::: http://www.e-sword.net :::::::
Amen and amen :-)
May the LORD continue to bless you, dear Vera whom I love, in Jesus'
most precious and holy name.
Amen :-))
Now this is about the works of the four riders on horseback from the
6th chapter of the Book of Revelation (we are now in the 6th year into
the third millenium after the birth of the Son of Man)
(1) Crowned rider wielding a bow and riding a white horse:
"See you on the other side. It's not bad. We are just going to
sleep." - missive (missile) from one of 12 born-again Christian miners
who gave up their lives to save the youngest among them after being
trapped by an explosion in a W.Va mine.
(2) Rider wielding a sword and riding a fiery red horse:
Ariel Sharon, the world's hope for lasting peace in the middle east,
suffers a massive bleeding stroke. Violence and bloodshed in Iraq
escalates. U.S. now less likely to pull out of Iraq anytime soon.
(3) Rider wielding a set of food scales and riding a black horse:
The rate of increase of the number of people worldwide using the
2PD-OMER Approach (which advocates the use of food scales) accelerates
with growing worldwide concerns about the obesity epidemic:
http://www.HeartMDPhD.com/wtloss.asp
(4) Rider on a pale horse given the authority to kill a fourth of the
world's population "by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts
of the earth":
The H5N1 Avian Flu Pandemic is here:
http://tinyurl.com/amj4a
Yes, the migratory birds spreading H5N1 virus are wild beasts of the
earth.
Would be more than happy to "glow" and chat about this and other things
like cardiology, diabetes and nutrition that interest those following
this thread here during the next on-line chat (01/12/06) from 6 to 7 pm
EST:
http://tinyurl.com/cpayh
For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for
how the LORD has reshaped me:
http://tinyurl.com/bgfqt
Prayerfully in Christ's love,
Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/b6xwk
Fucking troll
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| User: "kevnbro" |
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| Title: Re: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God |
12 Jan 2006 12:45:25 PM |
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I say whenever we receive one of Doc Chung's posts/replies, we
immediately create enough random food topics to push his off onto the
"older topics" page.
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| User: "kathryn" |
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| Title: Re: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God |
12 Jan 2006 01:28:21 PM |
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"kevnbro" <kevnbro@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:1137091525.535667.150450@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I say whenever we receive one of Doc Chung's posts/replies, we
immediately create enough random food topics to push his off onto the
"older topics" page.
I think we should find his house and and slap him to death with wet fish
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| User: "BoboBonobo" |
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| Title: Re: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God |
12 Jan 2006 01:29:46 PM |
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kathryn wrote:
"kevnbro" <kevnbro@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:1137091525.535667.150450@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I say whenever we receive one of Doc Chung's posts/replies, we
immediately create enough random food topics to push his off onto the
"older topics" page.
I think we should find his house and and slap him to death with wet fish
He lives in Atlanta.
--Bryan
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| User: "Richard Smol" |
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| Title: Re: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God |
12 Jan 2006 12:03:27 PM |
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Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
::: vera ::: wrote:
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was
and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8)
::: vera :::
____________________________________________________
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de :::::::
::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm :::::::
::::::: http://www.e-sword.net :::::::
Amen and amen :-)
May the LORD continue to bless you, dear Vera whom I love, in Jesus'
most precious and holy name.
You're a ***** fucking nutcase. Why do you add alt.atheism in a reply
to another post? Get the hell out... we are not interested in your
idiotic Christ-blather!
RS
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| User: "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" |
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| Title: The crowned horseman pierces Robyn's heart with yet another arrow. |
12 Jan 2006 09:15:31 AM |
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Robibnikoff wrote:
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <nospam13@heartmdphd.com> wrote in message
news:1137074872.679612.144060@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Spamming dipshit!
Were you secure in the truth, you would also have had the strength the
resist the temptation of descending into namecalling.
May the LORD help you appreciate the strength of the truth someday,
dear Robyn whom I love, in Jesus' most precious and holy name.
Amen :-)
Now this is about the works of the four riders on horseback from the
6th chapter of the Book of Revelation (we are now in the 6th year into
the third millenium after the birth of the Son of Man)
(1) Crowned rider wielding a bow and riding a white horse:
"See you on the other side. It's not bad. We are just going to
sleep." - missive (missile) from one of 12 born-again Christian miners
who gave up their lives to save the youngest among them after being
trapped by an explosion in a W.Va mine.
(2) Rider wielding a sword and riding a fiery red horse:
Ariel Sharon, the world's hope for lasting peace in the middle east,
suffers a massive bleeding stroke. Violence and bloodshed in Iraq
escalates. U.S. now less likely to pull out of Iraq anytime soon.
(3) Rider wielding a set of food scales and riding a black horse:
The rate of increase of the number of people worldwide using the
2PD-OMER Approach (which advocates the use of food scales) accelerates
with growing worldwide concerns about the obesity epidemic:
http://www.HeartMDPhD.com/wtloss.asp
(4) Rider on a pale horse given the authority to kill a fourth of the
world's population "by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts
of the earth":
The H5N1 Avian Flu Pandemic is here:
http://tinyurl.com/amj4a
Yes, the migratory birds spreading H5N1 virus are wild beasts of the
earth.
Would be more than happy to "glow" and chat about this and other things
like cardiology, diabetes and nutrition that interest those following
this thread here during the next on-line chat (01/12/06) from 6 to 7 pm
EST:
http://tinyurl.com/cpayh
For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for
how the LORD has reshaped me:
http://tinyurl.com/bgfqt
Prayerfully in Christ's love,
Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/b6xwk
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| User: "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" |
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| Title: Yet another conquering arrow. |
13 Jan 2006 01:22:10 AM |
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JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason Gastrich's effort wrote:
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
Robibnikoff wrote:
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <nospam13@heartmdphd.com> wrote in message
news:1137074872.679612.144060@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Spamming dipshit!
Were you secure in the truth, you would also have had the strength the
resist the temptation of descending into namecalling.
She's just describing you, Andy.
The use of derogatory monikers in descriptions is namecalling.
Please know you remain in my prayers, dear JessHC, whom I love in
Jesus' most precious and holy name :-)
Now this is about the works of the four riders on horseback from the
6th chapter of the Book of Revelation (we are now in the 6th year into
the third millenium after the birth of the Son of Man)
(1) Crowned rider wielding a bow and riding a white horse:
"See you on the other side. It's not bad. We are just going to
sleep." - missive (missile) from one of 12 born-again Christian miners
who gave up their lives to save the youngest among them after being
trapped by an explosion in a W.Va mine.
(2) Rider wielding a sword and riding a fiery red horse:
Ariel Sharon, the world's hope for lasting peace in the middle east,
suffers a massive bleeding stroke. Violence and bloodshed in Iraq
escalates. U.S. now less likely to pull out of Iraq anytime soon.
(3) Rider wielding a set of food scales and riding a black horse:
The rate of increase of the number of people worldwide using the
2PD-OMER Approach (which advocates the use of food scales) accelerates
with growing worldwide concerns about the obesity epidemic:
http://www.HeartMDPhD.com/wtloss.asp
(4) Rider on a pale horse given the authority to kill a fourth of the
world's population "by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts
of the earth":
The H5N1 Avian Flu Pandemic is here:
http://tinyurl.com/amj4a
Yes, the migratory birds spreading H5N1 virus are wild beasts of the
earth.
Would be more than happy to "glow" and chat about this and other things
like cardiology, diabetes and nutrition that interest those following
this thread here during the next on-line chat (01/19/06) from 6 to 7 pm
EST:
http://tinyurl.com/cpayh
For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for
how the LORD has reshaped me:
http://tinyurl.com/bgfqt
Prayerfully in Christ's love,
Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/b6xwk
.
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| User: "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" |
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| Title: Re: Yet another conquering arrow. |
13 Jan 2006 04:15:04 PM |
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"JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason Gastrich's effort" wrote:
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason Gastrich's effort wrote:
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
Robibnikoff wrote:
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <nospam13@heartmdphd.com> wrote in message
news:1137074872.679612.144060@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Spamming dipshit!
Were you secure in the truth, you would also have had the strength the
resist the temptation of descending into namecalling.
She's just describing you, Andy.
The use of derogatory monikers in descriptions is namecalling.
Nope. Unless you'd like to claim that my calling you "Andy" is also
"namecalling."
Being called Andy is not offensive to me.
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=name-calling
Main Entry: name-call·ing
: the use of offensive names especially to win an argument or to induce
rejection or condemnation (as of a person or project) without objective
consideration of the facts
Thank you for confirming the veracity of what I have written.
It remains my choice to continue writing truthfully. Sorry my choice
continues to bother you.
May the LORD help you appreciate the power of the truth someday, dear
JessHC whom I love, in Jesus' most precious and holy name :-)
Now this is about the works of the four riders on horseback from the 6th
chapter of the Book of Revelation (we are now in the 6th year into the
third millenium after the birth of the Son of Man)
(1) Crowned rider wielding a bow and riding a white horse:
"See you on the other side. It's not bad. We are just going to sleep."
- missive (missile) from one of 12 born-again Christian miners who gave
up their lives to save the youngest among them after being trapped by an
explosion in a W.Va mine.
(2) Rider wielding a sword and riding a fiery red horse:
Ariel Sharon, the world's hope for lasting peace in the middle east, has
suffered a massive bleeding stroke. Violence and bloodshed in Iraq
escalates. U.S. now less likely to pull out of Iraq anytime soon.
(3) Rider wielding a set of food scales and riding a black horse:
The rate of increase of the number of people worldwide using the
2PD-OMER Approach (which advocates the use of food scales) accelerates
with growing worldwide concerns about the obesity epidemic:
http://www.HeartMDPhD.com/wtloss.asp
(4) Rider on a pale horse given the authority to kill a fourth of the
world's population "by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts
of the earth":
The H5N1 Avian Flu Pandemic is here:
http://tinyurl.com/amj4a
Yes, the migratory birds spreading H5N1 virus are wild beasts of the
earth.
Would be more than happy to "glow" and chat about this and other things
like cardiology, diabetes and nutrition that interest those following
this thread here during the next on-line chat (01/12/2006) from 6 to 7
pm EST:
http://tinyurl.com/cpayh
For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for how
the LORD has reshaped me:
http://tinyurl.com/bgfqt
Prayerfully in Christ's love,
Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/b6xwk
.
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| User: "Bob this one" |
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| Title: En 101 |
13 Jan 2006 08:01:03 AM |
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Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
monikers
ESL
Pastorio
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| User: "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" |
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| Title: Yet another conquering arrow. |
13 Jan 2006 08:14:49 AM |
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Bob (this one) wrote:
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
monikers
ESL
Language worship.
May the LORD help you appreciate the infinite strength of the truth
someday, dear Bob whom I love, in Jesus' most precious and holy name
:-)
Now this is about the works of the four riders on horseback from the
6th chapter of the Book of Revelation (we are now in the 6th year into
the third millenium after the birth of the Son of Man)
(1) Crowned rider wielding a bow and riding a white horse:
"See you on the other side. It's not bad. We are just going to
sleep." - missive (missile) from one of 12 born-again Christian miners
who gave up their lives to save the youngest among them after being
trapped by an explosion in a W.Va mine.
(2) Rider wielding a sword and riding a fiery red horse:
Ariel Sharon, the world's hope for lasting peace in the middle east,
suffers a massive bleeding stroke. Violence and bloodshed in Iraq
escalates. U.S. now less likely to pull out of Iraq anytime soon.
(3) Rider wielding a set of food scales and riding a black horse:
The rate of increase of the number of people worldwide using the
2PD-OMER Approach (which advocates the use of food scales) accelerates
with growing worldwide concerns about the obesity epidemic:
http://www.HeartMDPhD.com/wtloss.asp
(4) Rider on a pale horse given the authority to kill a fourth of the
world's population "by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts
of the earth":
The H5N1 Avian Flu Pandemic is here:
http://tinyurl.com/amj4a
Yes, the migratory birds spreading H5N1 virus are wild beasts of the
earth.
Would be more than happy to "glow" and chat about this and other things
like cardiology, diabetes and nutrition that interest those following
this thread here during the next on-line chat (01/19/06) from 6 to 7 pm
EST:
http://tinyurl.com/cpayh
For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for
how the LORD has reshaped me:
http://tinyurl.com/bgfqt
Prayerfully in Christ's love,
Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/b6xwk
.
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| User: "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" |
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| Title: Re: Yet another conquering arrow. |
13 Jan 2006 04:14:59 PM |
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"JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason Gastrich's effort" wrote:
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
Bob (this one) wrote:
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
monikers
ESL
Language worship.
Liar.
It remains my choice to continue writing truthfully. Sorry my choice
continues to bother you.
May the LORD help you appreciate the power of the truth someday, dear
JessHC whom I love, in Jesus' most precious and holy name :-)
Now this is about the works of the four riders on horseback from the 6th
chapter of the Book of Revelation (we are now in the 6th year into the
third millenium after the birth of the Son of Man)
(1) Crowned rider wielding a bow and riding a white horse:
"See you on the other side. It's not bad. We are just going to sleep."
- missive (missile) from one of 12 born-again Christian miners who gave
up their lives to save the youngest among them after being trapped by an
explosion in a W.Va mine.
(2) Rider wielding a sword and riding a fiery red horse:
Ariel Sharon, the world's hope for lasting peace in the middle east, has
suffered a massive bleeding stroke. Violence and bloodshed in Iraq
escalates. U.S. now less likely to pull out of Iraq anytime soon.
(3) Rider wielding a set of food scales and riding a black horse:
The rate of increase of the number of people worldwide using the
2PD-OMER Approach (which advocates the use of food scales) accelerates
with growing worldwide concerns about the obesity epidemic:
http://www.HeartMDPhD.com/wtloss.asp
(4) Rider on a pale horse given the authority to kill a fourth of the
world's population "by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts
of the earth":
The H5N1 Avian Flu Pandemic is here:
http://tinyurl.com/amj4a
Yes, the migratory birds spreading H5N1 virus are wild beasts of the
earth.
Would be more than happy to "glow" and chat about this and other things
like cardiology, diabetes and nutrition that interest those following
this thread here during the next on-line chat (01/12/2006) from 6 to 7
pm EST:
http://tinyurl.com/cpayh
For those who are put off by the signature, my advance apologies for how
the LORD has reshaped me:
http://tinyurl.com/bgfqt
Prayerfully in Christ's love,
Andrew
http://tinyurl.com/b6xwk
.
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| User: "jesshc" |
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| Title: Re: Yet another conquering arrow. |
14 Jan 2006 10:51:28 AM |
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Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
"JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason Gastrich's effort" wrote:
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
Bob (this one) wrote:
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
monikers
ESL
Language worship.
Liar.
It remains my choice to continue writing truthfully. Sorry my choice
continues to bother you.
You've made it clear to everyone what your choice is, so you might as
well give up that lie of yours.
.
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: Yet another conquering arrow. |
13 Jan 2006 06:16:10 PM |
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Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
IS THERE A GOD?
Strong Atheism's answer.
A BASIC DEFINITION OF GOD.
The general overarching definition of god as per
the major religions of the world is:
A. God is personal, God has will and consciousness.
B. God has free will.
C. God is the creator of all.
D. God is omnipotent.
E. God is omnibenevolent.
F. God is omniscient.
G. God is that which nothing more powerful
can be imagined.
These are the basic attributes that can be claimed
for the god of orthodox Judaism, Christianity,
Islam, and Hinduism.
Omnibenevolence and omniscience are actually
logically derivable from the claimed attribute of
omnipotence and so aren't not truly independent
attributes, and may be considered special aspects
of omnipotence.
There are other attributes of god, that he is the
only such god, that he is is immortal and that
god has always existed that are not important
for this discussion and for now, can be ignored.
They are secondary arguments and are for the most
part not foundational or truly necessary, except
those that can be logically derived from the
attributes listed above.
A CLASS OF GODS
It is important to note here that this is a
definition not for a particular god, but an
entire class of gods.
Sub-theories about god are not important here.
Christianity claims one may attain salvation
only through Jesus, Islam claims the Christian
dogma that Jesus was the son of god is
blasphemous.
Ideas like this though, are of little importance
to the overarching and general claims made for a
personal, creator, omni-everything god. I have
coined a term, The Grand God of Grand Theologies
for this sort of god, this sort of theological
system of expansive claims for god.
Grand theologies are those theologies that have
adopted this class of god as their basic
attributes concerning the nature of god. But it
is important to remember here that what is being
discussed here is a class of gods, not particular
gods or specific gods.
THE FOUR GREAT THEOLOGICAL TRADITIONS
Again, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism hold
to this basic Grand God and are typical Grand
Theologies holding to this basic class of god as
their basic definitions of what god is at god's
most basic level.
A big problem with this class of gods is, it
collapses rather easily into internal self
contradiction.
THE PROBLEM OF EVIL.
The problem of evil was first written down by
Epicurus in about the third century BCE.
Today's formulation is:
A. God is defined as omnipotent;
B. and as omnibenevolent.
C. Evil exists.
D. God therefore, is not omnipotent as claimed.
E. Or God is not omnibenevolent as claimed.
F. Or god is neither omnipotent or
omnibenevolent.
G. Or god is not existant.
THE FREE WILL DEFENSE
The free will defense of the problem of evil goes
back to St. Augustine who popularized it. It is
still popular, and is championed most notably
today by Alvin Plantinga, but also by other
theologians.
God gave man free will. Man freely chooses to do
evil. Ability to do evil is less evil than
lacking free will.
THE FREE WILL DEFENSE DEBUNKED.
God has free will.
God is omnibenevolent, he has a good nature
incapable of doing evil.
A. If god can have free will, and a good nature,
this good nature is not allowed to count
against god's free will.
B. Nor is god's lack of ability to do evil
allowed to count against god's omnipotence.
C. Likewise, man could easily have a god like
free will and a god like good nature.
D. Inabilty then to do evil would no more count
against man's free will than it does for god's
free will.
E. If so, it also counts against god's free will
and god does not have free will as claimed.
F. If god does not have absolute and total free
will, thus free will is not a true necessity
at all.
F. If god is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, and
can give man a god like free will and a
god-like good nature incapable of moral evil,
god must do so or god is not moral, not
omnibenevolent.
G. Evil exists because he allows it to.
So free will does not exist, or it does and we can
have a god like free will and a god like good
nature. Either way, free will cannot explain away
the existence of evil. This free will defense
then, is a failed argument.
OMNISCIENCE VERSUS CREATORHOOD OF GOD
God is defined as creator of all in most
religions.
And god is claimed to be omniscient, all knowing.
A. God created the Universe and all in it.
B. God is omniscient, all knowing, he knows all
in the Universe and he knows the future of the
Universe and its contents.
C. If god creates a Universe, he will know that
in 13 billion years this Universe will have a
man named John Smith in it.
D. If John Smith is good and saved, or evil and
damned, God will know that.
E. As he knows that the Universe in its present
state will have a John Smith, god may then
contemplate the future state of Smith and
decide if he will tolerate an evil Smith.
F. If yes, Smith will be evil only because of a
specific personal and will choice made solely
by god.
G. If Smith is evil, then evil exists solely
because of a choice made by god. In fact all
moral evil done by creations of god will be
evil and do evil only because of personal and
willful creations of god allowing evil acts
to be done, by direct decision of god.
H. If evil exists in a world with an omniscient
creator god, it is solely and only because
god allows evil.
I. If evil exists solely because of personal
choices of god, god then is not as defined,
omnibenevolent.
J. Man and any other sentient being in such a
Universe cannot have any free will, not even
in principle. A Universe with a god that
creates all and knows all precludes free will
for all beings god creates in the strongest
possible manner.
The Grand God of Grand
Theology is thus self destroying, it is
incoherent and contradictory as a theory.
THE SITUATION SO FAR.
1. A minimalistic class of gods is defined, this
Grand God has been defined here with as few
terms as possible.
2. The problem of evil dooms such a claimed god.
3. The attempted defense, free will is fatally
flawed. God's good nature and free will doom
claims free will makes evil necessary for man
to have free will.
4. Omniscience and creatorhood of god further
doom claims of god's omnibenevolence and
man's free will free will cannot exist for
man. All evil is the direct and knowing
creation of god contradicting claims of
omnibenevolence.
5. Since Free will for man is totally impossible,
free will cannot be a good quality, much less
necessary.
Here, the Grand God of Grand Theology has
collapsed. As has Grand
Theology. As pointed out, this destroys the claims
and viability of an entire class of possible gods,
all secondary and tertiary claims for such a god of
this class also fail, as do dogmas or secondary
or tertiary claims.
If a these Grand Gods cannot exist as defined,
specific gods cannot, nor can claims such as this
or that Grand God sent this or that revelation to
man or some prophet or did this or that.
God is thus disprove and is utter irrelevant
to anything real and existant.
***********
OMNIPOTENCE AND OMNISCIENCE
A. Omnipotence is a special sort of attribute, of
all god's alledged attributes the most
important, because from that attribute you
can derive others attributes, including
omniscience. If one says for purposes of
argument god is omnipotent, one is also
implying god is also omniscient.
B. If god is omnipotent, god must also
specifically have omniscience because if
he does not have omniscience, one
cannot claim omnipotence as an attribute.
C. Thus if god is omnipotent, and created all,
free will is impossible because creation
and omniscience rule out free will as was
shown. In this world god supposedly created,
evil exists. So god must not be
omnibenevolent as claimed as all evil is
created by god if man cannot have free will.
D. So omnipotence and omnibenevolence are thus
mutually exclusive in a world that does in
fact have evil in it. Because omniscience
must exist as part of omnipotence and
omniscience and creatorhood cannot coexist
with free will, omnipotence is also not
compatible with creatorhood and
omnibenevolence. One cannot finesse this
all by ignoringomniscience or abandoning
omniscience.
E. One can only dispose of omniscience by also
explicitly abandoning omnipotence. If god is
defined as being omnibenevolent then a god
that is also allegedly also creator of all
must be evil.
CREATORHOOD OF GOD
F. One may be tempted to abandon the idea god
created all. But that creates some very strong
logical problems also.
G. If god is omnipotent, he can create all. Or
modify any other creation he does not himself
create. No other being or process may create
something god could not modify, because of the
power of his omniscience.
H. So if for purposes of argument, we claim the
Universe was not created by god, he could,
being omnipotent, change that creation for
his own purposes, that of creating good due
to his attribute of omnibenevolence.
We are back to the problem of evil again, he
could change creation such that no evil John
Smiths can exist.
If not he then is sole and only cause for
existence of all evil.
If god is omnibenevolent and omnipotent he
still must modify any creations he did not
himself create to destroy evil, if he can
do so. So claiming god did not create all
does not save the concept of an omnipotent,
omnibenevolent god. It cannot avoid the
problem of evil.
I. Omniscience means we cannot dodge the problem
of evil by stating god did not create the
Universe even if one wished to, nor by limiting
his creatorhood, for example saying god did not
create the original material of the Universe,
but used it as a building material.
J. Thus to get rid of the creator problem, we must
explicitly abandon it all and totally. Only by
doing so could one get around the problem of
creatorhood and omniscience. But if we say god
cannot either create the Universe or modify it
as he finds it, we drop omniscience also,
explicitly. God then turns out not to be
creator of all nor omnipotent as a priori
defined, a contradiction disproving that
a priori defined god.
K. If evil exists because god could change the
Universe he did not create, and he fails to do
so, then all evil exists solely because
of knowing and personal choices god makes.
L. God being omnipotent cannot be controlled by
any other process or other entities. He may
modify any works or creations made by them.
M. If god cannot change creations of others, or
the pre-existing materials of the Universe,
omnipotence in not an attribute of god as
claimed a priori.
M. Omnipotence and creatorhood thus are entangled
in a manner that makes it hard to abandon the
doctrine god created all and if one does, one
must likewise abandon claims of omnipotence.
PRE-EXISTING MATTER AND A PRE-EXISTING UNIVERSE.
The Greek writer Hesiod in his Theogony, starts
with a Universe that is a chaotic void. This
void, through the mysterious property of
emanation, created the first generation of gods,
the Titans, who in their turn created the
Olympians gods who eventually displace the
Titans as rulers of the world.
Likewise, some theologians see Genesis as
representing god creating the world out of a
similar void, a primordial sea god did not
himself create, but used as raw material for
his creations.
God's existence is not explained.
This idea god did not create all still would not
absolve an omnipotent god from responsibility
for evil. The biblical god if he did not create
the Universe and its component materials used them
as he pleased. If that god is omnipotent, then he
bears all responsibility for the world he did
create out of pre-existing material. Whether
this god is said to be eternal or like Hesiod's
Titans was somehow emanated from the chaos of
the void does not materially change any arguments
involving omnipotence, omniscience or
omnibenevolence, if god is said to have these
attributes.
************************************************
ATTRIBUTES OF GOD PART THREE
Does god create the rules, the laws, the logic of
the Universe or not? Is 2 + 2 = 4 something god
set as part of the nature of the Universe or is
that outside and beyond god?
Can god change 2 + 2 to 5?
A. If god did in fact make the rules and laws and
logic of the Universe, god could also change
them as needed.
B. A god that creates the rules.laws and logic
of the world he creates could simply make a
world where man has free will yet freely
chooses only to do moral good. Since god
creates the rules of the Universe, he could
change them in name of omnibenevolence, free
will is perserved and evil is banished. Evil
no longer needs to exist to allow for free
will.
C. If god could do this and fails to, evil
exists solely and only because of god's
failure to use his omnipotence to change
the rules and laws and logic of the Universe
to give man free will and a nature incapable
of doing evil.
D. If god can do this and fails to, god is not
omnibenevolent as claimed, a contradiction
in definitions of god as omnibenevolent and
omnipotent.
E. God in fact since he is essentially the
creator and sustaining cause of all evil
that was, is, and shall be is omni-malevolent.
F. If god does not make the rules, the laws, the
very logic of the Universe, then we have the
problem of what these things are and where
they come from.
G. If these laws and rules and logic limit god,
then god is obviously not omnipotent as
claimed.
H. And thus god is not as claimed, the greatest
thing that can be imagined. Obviously laws
and rules and logic that limit the most
powerful in the Universe are greater
still because they do in fact limit such
a being.
I. If such laws and rules and logic outside and
beyond god do exist, and are thus greater
than god, god is not the greatest thing
imaginable and all ontological 'proofs' that
are based on that basic claim fail.
J. Such rules and laws and logic must exist
outside of god's control and must have always
bee outside his control. If there were ever
in god's control, god cannot have reduced his
power to abandon omnipotence voluntarily.
Omnipotence is an inherent ability. It would
be like abandoning a sense of taste or touch.
This observation forstalls attempts at
apologisms claiming god abandoned any
abilities.
K. And if god could indeed abandon omnipotence,
he must avoid that. After all, he is also
omnibenevolent. Omnibenevolence dictates he
must at all times do the good thing, never an
evil thing. Abandoning omnipotence such that
he could no longer create a world where man
has free will, and a nature incapable of evil
is to allow evil to exist. To abandon
omnipotence is to embrace the proposition
evil is to be allowed to flourish. So any
claims god might have for some greater good
abandoned omnipotence freely are not possible.
L. If god is said to be omnipotent, if he at
anytime gave up any abilities he can no
longer said to be omnipotent, if he actually
gave up any abilities.
M. Since god must have had maximum power and
abilities and cannot have at any time
voluntarilyy relinquished any powers or
abilities, at least in the name of banishing
evil the fact that there are laws and rules
and logic of a universe outside and beyond
god, they aretrulyy beyond and outside god,
and always were.
N. Since such laws and rules and laws are outside
god, and always were so,and are properties of
the Universe, the Universe is likewise outside
and beyond god, with its laws and rules and
logic.
O. Since the Universe and its laws and rules and
logic are outside and beyond god, god is not
as, creator of all.
P. Since the Universe no longer relies on god for
its purportedexistencee, nor on god for the
existencee of its laws and rules and logic,
god is no longer a necessary being. If there
are things that have necessaryexistencee, it
would have to be the Universe as whole, or
possibly its laws, its rules or its logic,
or a subset of these rules or laws or the
underlying causes of these things, if any.
None were created by god or can be modified
by god.
Q. If these laws and rules and logic could be
modified by god, then the rules and laws
and logic of the Universe would have been
modified to enexistencece of evil, and must
be modified this if god is actually
omnipotent and omnibenevolent.
R. God then is not omnipotent, or not
omnibenevolent, or is neither, or
does not exist.
THE ATTRIBUTES AND NATURE OF GOD IN LIGHT OF THE
ABOVE EXAMINATION OF GOD
Thus the idea god is omnipotent, omnibenevolent,
and creator of all, clash again
and mutually self-destruct over the issue of
evil'existencece. This raises
serious questions on the nature of the Universe
that cannot be as Grand Theology
claims it is.
A. We have shown god cannot have created the
Universe.
B. We have shown god does not create the laws,
rules and laws of that Universe.
C. That god is thus not omnipotent as these laws
limit him.
D. That god is not the greatest imaginable thing.
E. That ontological proofs of god'existencece
based on claims god is the greatest thing
imaginable are failed arguments.
F. That god cannot be a necessary being, as
claimed.
G. That any possible claims god might for some
reason abandon or limit any abilities cannot
be true in any attempt to avoid this line of
inquiry. Nor can that approach derail logical
examination of consequences of Grand
Theology's overarching claims to god's
attributes or nature.
The fact that god iallegedlyly omnibenevolent and
evil exists, demonstrates god cannot make the
rules of the world. 2 + 2 = 4 because that is
the nature of the Universe, not something god
created.Because if god did create the rules and
laws and logic of the Universe, and was
omnibenevolent, we should have no signs of evil,
especially moral evil of man, Satan, demons and
devils.
But if one admits to that, Many other important
claims collapse, many other arguments about god
and his attributes and nature no longer are
viable. Some of these claims, god's creation
of the Universe are among the oldest and most
basic of theology.
Ontological proofs started with Anselm in the
10th century, all of these now must be abandoned.
The necessary being argument, long a rhetorical
argument is now finally dead.
Free will defenses against the problem of evil
opened up a line of attack here that is powerful
and very final.
**************************************************
--
"A dead religion is like a dead cat -- the stiffer and
more rotten it is, the better it is as a missile weapon."
- H.G. Wells
Cheerful Charlie
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