| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"William Boutwell" |
| Date: |
29 Jul 2003 04:53:22 AM |
| Object: |
Re: Importance of education |
*Nemo* <nemo0037@yahoo.NOSPMPLS.com> wrote in news:nemo0037-
008AED.02170329072003@news02.west.earthlink.net:
This might be a chicken/egg conundrum.
I was thinking today about all the people I know here in North carolina
who have completely wrong-headed views of how our government is
supposed
to work, and what the constitution actually says regarding the
separation of church and state.
Several atheists seem to have some misconceptions, also, BTW, but
that's
perhaps another story.
The point is that many misconceptions appear to stem from improper
education in public schools. Teachers have been known to tell their
students that the first amendment's establishment clause only means
that
there is a one-way separation, or that freedom of religion means
freedom
to choose whatever flavor of Christianity suits a person best.
Still other teachers choose to trample over the constitution wnen ever
they can get away with it, urging children to go to church, pray with
them in class, you name it.
How can we hope as a nation to operate according to the constitution if
people aren't educated from the ground up in the proper meaning of the
ground rules?
The reason I think this might be a chicken/egg problem is because the
teachers are products of the education system they grew up in. If they
have their ideas handed to them by incompetent or deceitful teachers
and
have internalized them, ready to pass on their misconceptions, what
hope
have we of breaking the cycle?
Of course, sources of error here aren't limited to public education.
Many churches and other influences are likely sources of problems --
like churches, youth organizations and the like.
These are just some thoughts that ran through my head as I walked
around
at lunch today...
I think part of the problem is the concept of government schools.
Why would government officials be interested in teaching chilren about
the principles in the Constitution?
You see, the idealogical slant of the government doesn't matter, in this
particular instance, as all politicians wish to accrue power and the
Constitution places limits on the powers of government and thus on
politicians.
That pesky Bill of Rights certainly gets in the way of the politically
ambitious among us. What better way to obviate it than make sure
children are ignorant of what is said in the Constitution?
Ignorant children become ignorant adults. Ignorant adults are either
conservatives or liberals ;-)
--
Dale.
aa #1969
"Man is the only animal that blushes, or needs to.", Mark Twain
.
|
|
| User: "*Nemo*" |
|
| Title: Re: Importance of education |
29 Jul 2003 05:50:56 PM |
|
|
In article <Xns93C73BEBB2521dalebcflrrrcom@65.32.1.6>,
William Boutwell <dale-b@cfl.rrr.com> wrote:
I think part of the problem is the concept of government schools.
Why would government officials be interested in teaching chilren about
the principles in the Constitution?
You see, the idealogical slant of the government doesn't matter, in this
particular instance, as all politicians wish to accrue power and the
Constitution places limits on the powers of government and thus on
politicians.
That pesky Bill of Rights certainly gets in the way of the politically
ambitious among us. What better way to obviate it than make sure
children are ignorant of what is said in the Constitution?
Ignorant children become ignorant adults. Ignorant adults are either
conservatives or liberals ;-)
I admit it is a very pessimistic view... but it has its valid points, to
our sorrow.
--
Dale.
aa #1969
"Man is the only animal that blushes, or needs to.", Mark Twain
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
.
|
|
|
| User: "William Boutwell" |
|
| Title: Re: Importance of education |
29 Jul 2003 10:28:34 PM |
|
|
*Nemo* <nemo0037@yahoo.NOSPMPLS.com> wrote in
news:nemo0037-1D44EB.18505229072003@news01.west.earthlink.net:
In article <Xns93C73BEBB2521dalebcflrrrcom@65.32.1.6>,
William Boutwell <dale-b@cfl.rrr.com> wrote:
<snip>
That pesky Bill of Rights certainly gets in the way of the
politically ambitious among us. What better way to obviate it than
make sure children are ignorant of what is said in the Constitution?
Ignorant children become ignorant adults. Ignorant adults are either
conservatives or liberals ;-)
I admit it is a very pessimistic view... but it has its valid points,
to our sorrow.
I think I'd have preferred it if you'd called me some sort of nut.
I don't want to be right about any of this or to have any valid points.
Unfortunately, my rose-colored glasses broke quite some time ago and I
haven't seen what I wish since...
I don't have children, but, if I did, I'd make regular visits to the
schools they attend.
So, while I do blame politicians for the poor quality of education, I
also blame parents who do not become involved in the schools their
children attend.
If the schools have become little more than day-care centers for busy
parents who's really to blame?
That shiny new Lexus in the driveway looks really nice. How come little
Johnny can't read, write or reason?
--
Dale.
aa #1969
"Man is the only animal that blushes, or needs to.", Mark Twain
.
|
|
|
| User: "stillsunny" |
|
| Title: Re: Importance of education |
31 Jul 2003 09:02:31 PM |
|
|
*Nemo* <nemo0037@yahoo.NOSPMPLS.com> wrote in message news:<nemo0037-FE2C99.02091031072003@news04.west.earthlink.net>...
In article <c472f5b5.0307301602.ec76d3d@posting.google.com>,
stillsunny1@yahoo.com (stillsunny) wrote:
If the parents don't know it, the kids aren't going to know it. I've
got a cousin who teaches in a very impoverished, agrarian little
community, and she's about to give up. If the parents don't read,
it's hard to convince kids they should. If the parents have never
travelled more than twenty miles outside of town, it's hard to
convince the kids there's a world of opportunity and excitement beyond
the parameter of the community.
There's a really wonderful old book that I love to recommend to folks
that I read in my youth: "Everything But Money" by Sam Levinson.
What I liked most about it (besides the terrific humor) was the way he
gets across his family's perspective on life - the importance of
education for their children, the way the parents instilled in their
kids a sense of personal responsibility and personal decency. Levinson
and his siblings grew up in Harlem, typically poor, and they did
whatever it took to get to college, make a way for themselves in life
and get away from the tiny, impoverished life they found themselves in.
Okay, it's not exactly on the topic you spoke on, but it *does*
correlate with the thread title, and with your comment here.
One thing that occurs to me is that there's a shift in why we educate,
subtle but real, which drives *how* we educate. It seems, from my
perspective, that the purpose of education used to be simply to be
educated. Now, clearly that was going to lead to increased
opportunity and so forth, but the entire purpose of particularly a
liberal arts education was to just be educated.
Which sounds, in this achievement, goal oriented era, to be somewhat
worthless.
I really am not technically "using" anything I learned in college,
except that I know how to construct a sentence and spell a word or
two, and can type a certain number of words a minute. But I've used
everything I learned in college all through my life (with the
exception of calculus). It's helped me understand the world and the
people in it better, helped me make more informed decisions, helped me
form a coherent system of values, and just plain enriched it in a lot
of intangible but very real ways. My mother used to say that an
educated person has no excuse for being bored.
I wonder if the focus on how to teach something so that people can
later make money has diminished the perceived benefit of an well
rounded education in areas which aren't directly related to profit
potential.
Sunny
.
|
|
|
| User: "*Nemo*" |
|
| Title: Re: Importance of education |
01 Aug 2003 04:17:26 AM |
|
|
In article <c472f5b5.0307311802.61555d93@posting.google.com>,
(stillsunny) wrote:
*Nemo* <nemo0037@yahoo.NOSPMPLS.com> wrote in message
news:<nemo0037-FE2C99.02091031072003@news04.west.earthlink.net>...
In article <c472f5b5.0307301602.ec76d3d@posting.google.com>,
(stillsunny) wrote:
If the parents don't know it, the kids aren't going to know it. I've
got a cousin who teaches in a very impoverished, agrarian little
community, and she's about to give up. If the parents don't read,
it's hard to convince kids they should. If the parents have never
travelled more than twenty miles outside of town, it's hard to
convince the kids there's a world of opportunity and excitement beyond
the parameter of the community.
There's a really wonderful old book that I love to recommend to folks
that I read in my youth: "Everything But Money" by Sam Levinson.
What I liked most about it (besides the terrific humor) was the way he
gets across his family's perspective on life - the importance of
education for their children, the way the parents instilled in their
kids a sense of personal responsibility and personal decency. Levinson
and his siblings grew up in Harlem, typically poor, and they did
whatever it took to get to college, make a way for themselves in life
and get away from the tiny, impoverished life they found themselves in.
Okay, it's not exactly on the topic you spoke on, but it *does*
correlate with the thread title, and with your comment here.
One thing that occurs to me is that there's a shift in why we educate,
subtle but real, which drives *how* we educate. It seems, from my
perspective, that the purpose of education used to be simply to be
educated. Now, clearly that was going to lead to increased
opportunity and so forth, but the entire purpose of particularly a
liberal arts education was to just be educated.
Which sounds, in this achievement, goal oriented era, to be somewhat
worthless.
I really am not technically "using" anything I learned in college,
except that I know how to construct a sentence and spell a word or
two, and can type a certain number of words a minute. But I've used
everything I learned in college all through my life (with the
exception of calculus). It's helped me understand the world and the
people in it better, helped me make more informed decisions, helped me
form a coherent system of values, and just plain enriched it in a lot
of intangible but very real ways. My mother used to say that an
educated person has no excuse for being bored.
I wonder if the focus on how to teach something so that people can
later make money has diminished the perceived benefit of an well
rounded education in areas which aren't directly related to profit
potential.
I don't doubt it. I know that when I went to college, I went with the
mistaken understanding that a college degree "guarenteed" me a job. Of
course, that guarentee was based on the fact tat I chose a course of
study that would train me for a chosen career. It was a bitter lesson
for me when I got my sheepskin in 1981, at the hieght of the "hiring
freeze" craze of the Reagan administration, compounded by the fact that
local employers tended to avoid hiring graduates of my school for
programming positions, due to the poor quality of most graduates. To
this day, 22 years later, I *still* have never worked in this town.
I think that part of the issue is a tragedy. I'm glad I went in for a
liberal arts education, and that my son is doing the same... but I'm
always struck by the fact that I didn't get a chance to start on my
career until 6 years later, when I took some courses at the local
technical community college.
Sunny
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "J.R." |
|
| Title: Re: Importance of education |
29 Jul 2003 10:26:07 AM |
|
|
William Boutwell <dale-b@cfl.rrr.com> wrote in message news:<Xns93C73BEBB2521dalebcflrrrcom@65.32.1.6>...
*Nemo* <nemo0037@yahoo.NOSPMPLS.com> wrote in news:nemo0037-
008AED.02170329072003@news02.west.earthlink.net:
This might be a chicken/egg conundrum.
I was thinking today about all the people I know here in North carolina
who have completely wrong-headed views of how our government is
supposed
to work, and what the constitution actually says regarding the
separation of church and state.
Several atheists seem to have some misconceptions, also, BTW, but
that's
perhaps another story.
The point is that many misconceptions appear to stem from improper
education in public schools. Teachers have been known to tell their
students that the first amendment's establishment clause only means
that
there is a one-way separation, or that freedom of religion means
freedom
to choose whatever flavor of Christianity suits a person best.
Still other teachers choose to trample over the constitution wnen ever
they can get away with it, urging children to go to church, pray with
them in class, you name it.
How can we hope as a nation to operate according to the constitution if
people aren't educated from the ground up in the proper meaning of the
ground rules?
The reason I think this might be a chicken/egg problem is because the
teachers are products of the education system they grew up in. If they
have their ideas handed to them by incompetent or deceitful teachers
and
have internalized them, ready to pass on their misconceptions, what
hope
have we of breaking the cycle?
Of course, sources of error here aren't limited to public education.
Many churches and other influences are likely sources of problems --
like churches, youth organizations and the like.
These are just some thoughts that ran through my head as I walked
around
at lunch today...
I think part of the problem is the concept of government schools.
Why would government officials be interested in teaching chilren about
the principles in the Constitution?
You see, the idealogical slant of the government doesn't matter, in this
particular instance, as all politicians wish to accrue power and the
Constitution places limits on the powers of government and thus on
politicians.
That pesky Bill of Rights certainly gets in the way of the politically
ambitious among us. What better way to obviate it than make sure
children are ignorant of what is said in the Constitution?
Ignorant children become ignorant adults. Ignorant adults are either
conservatives or liberals ;-)
Bush's idea of seperation of church and state is: You can criticize
God and Jesus but not anyone named Bush.
If you don't believe that, watch the news and see who's being arrested
for saying what.
.
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
