Re: In our Email: [Henry] Separation of Church and state
--- In HRSepCnS@yahoogroups.com, Mike [delete] > w0rote:
Dear Henry,
First of all, Henry isn't a member here and I don't expect him to ever
show up here since people like him who send us unsolicited email of
the type he sent do not relish exposure or operate in forums where
others can read what they have to say. Therefore he will never see
your reply.
Thank you for explaining this. I am in total agreement to what
you are saying. As a born again Christian and my Commander in Chief
is Jesus Christ. My next Earthy Commander in Chief is the President
of the United States.
You just explained two separate spheres
". . .one of which is called civil, the other ecclesiastical government"
Rev Isaac Backus, An Appeal to the Public for Religious Liberty, 1773
http://www.churchstatelaw.com/historicalmaterials/8_2_7.asp
"Now who can hear Christ declare, that his kingdom is, not of this
world, and yet believe that this blending of church and state together
can be pleasing to him?"
Rev Isaac Backus, An Appeal to the Public for Religious Liberty, 1773
http://www.churchstatelaw.com/historicalmaterials/8_2_7.asp
You're actually talking about separation of church and state wihout
even realizing it
Here is some more
"Having offered these few thoughts upon the general nature of
government and liberty, it is needful to observe, that God has
appointed two kinds of government in the world, which are distinct in
their nature, and ought never to be confounded together; one of which
is called civil, the other ecclesiastical government"
Rev Isaac Backus, An Appeal to the Public for Religious Liberty, 1773
http://www.churchstatelaw.com/historicalmaterials/8_2_7.asp
"And where these two kinds of government, [civil and ecclesiastical]
and the weapons which belong to them, are well distinguished. and
improved according to the true nature and end of their institution.
the effects are happy, and they do not at all interfere with each
other: but where they have been confounded together, no tongue nor pen
can fully describe the mischiefs that have ensued; of which the Holy
Ghost gave early and plain warnings."
Rev Isaac Backus, An Appeal to the Public for Religious Liberty, 1773
http://www.churchstatelaw.com/historicalmaterials/8_2_7.asp
Letr me toss in another for good measure:
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/leland5.htm
[excerpt]
Excerpt from July 4th Oration by Rev John Leland, July 5, 1802.
[emphasis added]
.. . . Never promote men who seek after a state-established religion;
it is spiritual tyranny--the worst of despotism. It is turnpiking the
way to heaven by human law, in order to establish ministerial gates to
collect toll. It converts religion into a principle of state policy,
and the gospel into merchandise. Heaven forbids the bans of marriage
between church and state; their embraces therefore, must be unlawful.
Guard against those men who make a great noise about religion, in
choosing representatives. It is electioneering. If they knew the
nature and worth of religion, they would not debauch it to such
shameful purposes. If pure religion is the criterion to denominate
candidates, those who make a noise about it must be rejected; for
their wrangle about it, proves that they are void of it. Let honesty,
talents and quick despatch, characterise the men of your choice. Such
men will have a sympathy with their constituents, and will be willing
to come to the light, that their deeds may be examined. . . .
Source of Information:
Excerpt from "July 4th Oration by Rev.John Leland, July 5, 1802". The
Writings of John Leland, Edited by L.F. Greene, Arno Press & The New
York Times New York (1969) pp.260-270) Originally published as: The
Writings Of The Late Elder John Leland Including Some Events In His
Life, Written By Himself, With Additional Sketches &c. By Miss L.F.
Greene, Lanesboro, Mass. Printed By G.W. Wood, 29 Gold Street, New
York 1845.
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Just one more series
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The quotes Madison would make years later contained the phrases
exemption of Religion from Civil power (1803)
the practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government (1811)
total separation of the church from the State (1819)
Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and Gov't in the
Constitution (1817-1833)
perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters (1822)
the line of separation between the rights of religion and the civil
authority (1833)
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James Madison on Separation of Church and State
Direct references to separation to be found in the writings of James
Madison
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OCTOBER 1, 1803
Notes for annual message, Oct. 17, 1803: alterations and additions,
etc [1]
(3) after "assure"-are proposed "in due season, and under prudent
arrangements, important aids to our Treasury, as well as," an ample
etc.
Quere: if the two or three succeeding paragraphs be not more
adapted to the separate and subsequent communication, if adopted as
above suggested.
(4) For the first sentence, may be substituted "In the territory
between the Mississippi and the Ohio another valuable acquisition has
been made by a treaty etc."[3.] As it stands, it does not sufficiently
distinguish the nature of the one acquisition from that of the other,
and seems to imply that the acquisition from France was wholly on the
other side of the Mississippi
May it not be as well to omit the detail of the stipulated
considerations, and particularly that of the Roman Catholic Pastor.
The jealousy of some may see in it a principle, not according with the
exemption of Religion from Civil power. In the Indian Treaty it will
be less noticed than in a President's speech.[4.]
FOOTNOTES:
[1.] For TJ's third annual message to Congress, Oct. 17, 1803, see
Ford, VIII, pp. 266-7)
[3.] TI's message announced the acquisition of territory by treaty
from the Kaskaskia Indians; see Ford, VIII, pp. 269-70.
[4.] TJ accepted JM's suggestion to omit any discussion of Indian
treaty requirements to maintain a Roman Catholic priest, leaving the
stipulations in the treaty to "the competence of both houses.... as
soon as the senate shall have advised its ratification"; see
ibid.
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: James Madison to Thomas Jefferson, Washington,
Oct. 1, 1803, Notes for annual message, Oct. 17, 1803: alterations and
additions, etc.[1.], The Republic of Letters, the Correspondence
between Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, 1776-1826, Edited by James
Morton Smith, Vol. II, 1790 -1804, W. W. Norton & Company, New York,
London, (1995) pp 1297-98)
---------------------------------------------------
JUNE 3, 1811
"To the Baptist Churches on Neal's Greek on Black Creek, North
Carolina I have received, fellow-citizens, your address, approving my
objection to the Bill containing a grant of public land to the Baptist
Church at Salem Meeting House, Mississippi Territory. Having always
regarded the practical distinction between Religion and Civil
Government as essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by
the Constitution of the United States, I could not have other wise
discharged my duty on the occasion which presented itself"
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Letter to Baptist Churches in North Carolina,
June 3, 1811. Letters And Other Writings of James Madison Fourth
President Of The United States In Four Volumes Published By the Order
Of Congress, Vol..II, J. B. Lippincott & Co., Philadelphia, (1865) pp
511-512)
-----------------------------------------------------------
MARCH 2, 1819
"The civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated
hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability, and performs its
functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and
the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have
been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from
the State."
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Excert of a letter to Robert Walsh from James
Madison. MARCH 2, 1819 Letters and Other writings of James Madison,
in Four Volumes, Published by Order of Congress. VOL. III, J. B.
Lippincott & Co. Philadelphia, (1865), pp 121-126. James Madison on
Religious Liberty, Robert S.Alley, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, N.Y.
(1985) pp 82-83)
----------------------------------------------------------
1817-1833
"Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and Gov't in
the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by
Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents' already
furnished in their short history"
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Excerpt from Madison's Detached Memoranda.
This document was discovered in 1946 among the papers of William
Cabell Rives, a biographer of Madison. Scholars date these
observations in Madison's hand sometime between 1817 and 1832. The
entire document was published by Elizabeth Fleet in the William and
Mary Quarterly of October 1946.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
JULY 10, 1822
"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation
between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I
have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one
has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in
greater purity the less they are mixed together"
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Excerpt of letter to Edward Livingston from
James Madison, July 10, 1822. Letters and Other writings of James
Madison, in Four Volumes, Published by Order of Congress. VOL. III, J.
B. Lippincott & Co. Philadelphia, (1865), pp 273-276. James Madison
on Religious Liberty, Robert S.Alley, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, N.Y.
(1985) pp 82-83)
--------------------------------------------------------------
SEPTEMBER 1833
"I must admit moreover that it may not be easy, in every possible
case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion
and the civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions
and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to a usurpation on one
side or the other or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between
them will be best guarded against by entire abstinence of the
government from interference in any way whatever, beyond the necessity
of preserving public order and protecting each sect against trespasses
on its legal rights by others".
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Letter written by James Madison to Rev. Jasper
Adams, September, 1833.Writings of James Madison, edited by Gaillard
Hunt, [not sure what the volume number is but have enough information
presented here to locate the letter] microform Z1236.L53, pp 484-488. )
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In reference to the prez of the US as Commander in Chief. That only
applies if you are in the military. The prez of the US is not in any
way the Commander in Chief of the civilian population of this nation.
This Chain of Command and a re evaluation of the concept of Chirch
and State must be re-established once more in the America's Society as
the beggining of the main principle of christian values.
Says who? You? Who are you?
Otherwise we will be facing groups that proclaim themselves as
minorities based on their own Life styles that try to impose their
values as religious ones by twisting the meaning on Separation of
Church and State for the purpose to lobby power in their favor within
the Government at our expense.
So you approve of the Radical Religious Right trying to impose their
values on others but not of having others who you personally
disapprove of having the same rights you enjoy?
Also you seem to have overlooked the fact that Henry used inaccurate
history and bogus quotes to try and make his points.
So you approve of the use of false historical data and false quotes to
make your point. In other words you approve of lying so long as it
gets you what you want?
How interesting.
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You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the US and a couple from overseas as well]
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.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
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USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
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THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
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