| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Pastor Frank" |
| Date: |
25 Nov 2005 01:46:41 AM |
| Object: |
Re: INTELLIGENT DESIGN? |
"Ike" <accordiondocxyzxyzxyz@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:7FUaf.5046$m81.2275@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
"Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net> wrote in message
news:1131029388.882916@w9.dnx.net...
"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:2Y7af.47815$Pp1.37118@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
Religious types claim that the universe would need a God creator and
that
God always was. It is more logical to conclude the Universe always was.
There is physical objective verifiable evidence for the existence of the
Universe. There is absolutely no objective verifiable evidence for the
existence of ANY Gods.
Well, for once you have part of this correct. We do believe that God is
eternal, and the universe is not.
What universe? How can I observe a universe? Scientific method requires
replicable observations. You can look out the window and so can I. We will
see different things. Where is the universe? If you say all around, then
all around what... all around everything? Is there anything around what is
all around? That can't be proved or disproved since it is too general or
too self-referencing a statement. It is not a thing that can be observed.
Or if it is, where can I see it?
It's obviously a miracle, and perhaps Shakespeare was right in saying:
"The world is of the stuff that dreams are made of". The consequence would
be, that we are always in the process of having our expectations fulfilled.
"What you seek you will find" said Christ, and people that look to love and
care and to be humane, will find that returned to them multiplied. However
those who look for punishment for past sins, will find that too. That is why
in Christianity God's grace, the repentance and forgiveness of sins is so
central.
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
|
| Title: Re: INTELLIGENT DESIGN? |
01 Dec 2005 05:45:27 AM |
|
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"Bill Gamelson" <bill_gamelson@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:O9nif.43358$2k5.20202@dukeread09...
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:bcujo1h9osgoi4lbh17dge7g01ihv0nel4@4ax.com...
On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 12:43:25 -0500, "Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net>
wrote:
??????? wrote:
And what of Christ's suffering? It wasn't, as described, anything too
all bad when compared to the suffering inflicted upon some of the
victims of the Inquisition, or worse, the suffering of those who lived
for days and months after being horribly burned by the atom bombs
dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki for instance.
That is one of the most ignorant, crule and most stupid comment I have
ever heard in my entire life. Jesus had to feel every single emotion that
man would ever feel, and he had to feel it harder than any man would ever
feel it for him to be able to say "I paid your price."
The difference is, that the ones above had no choice, but Jesus DID have
a choice and could have talked His way out of crucifixion in no time, by
just sucking up a little to the Sanhedrin and showing Himself to be merely
one of the boys.
But Christ did not, for to make His point He had to die, mostly to catch
the attention of the spiritually deaf and lost, for He came for those
primarily. He was our Father which is in Heaven, come in the flesh of the
Son to save His children at the risk of His precious and wholly innocent
physical life, much like most parents would give their lives to save their
children ...yes, even the thankless, spoiled and mouthy brats.
.
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| User: "L.Roberts" |
|
| Title: Re: INTELLIGENT DESIGN? |
01 Dec 2005 07:25:10 PM |
|
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Pastor Frank wrote:
"Bill Gamelson" <bill_gamelson@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:O9nif.43358$2k5.20202@dukeread09...
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:bcujo1h9osgoi4lbh17dge7g01ihv0nel4@4ax.com...
On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 12:43:25 -0500, "Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net>
wrote:
??????? wrote:
And what of Christ's suffering? It wasn't, as described, anything too
all bad when compared to the suffering inflicted upon some of the
victims of the Inquisition, or worse, the suffering of those who lived
for days and months after being horribly burned by the atom bombs
dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki for instance.
That is one of the most ignorant, crule and most stupid comment I have
ever heard in my entire life. Jesus had to feel every single emotion that
man would ever feel, and he had to feel it harder than any man would ever
feel it for him to be able to say "I paid your price."
The difference is, that the ones above had no choice, but Jesus DID have
a choice and could have talked His way out of crucifixion in no time, by
just sucking up a little to the Sanhedrin and showing Himself to be merely
one of the boys.
But Christ did not, for to make His point He had to die, mostly to catch
the attention of the spiritually deaf and lost, for He came for those
primarily. He was our Father which is in Heaven, come in the flesh of the
Son to save His children at the risk of His precious and wholly innocent
physical life, much like most parents would give their lives to save their
children ...yes, even the thankless, spoiled and mouthy brats.
If i was doing some good drugs and somehow convinced myself, 100%, that
I would resurrect in three days, all better, and would then go on to be
king of mankind forevermore, with billions of obsequious people
fighting about who would get to sit at my left and right and trying to
lick at my hand like good puppies, calling me lord, well, I might
suffer a bit and give my life for that.
If Christ was to pay the price for, like say, a trillion sinners, then
he should be given the pain receptors of a trillion human bodies and
put upon the surface of the hottest type of star known to man and be
burned forever and ever and ever, ad infinitum, then his gesture for
the sake of, like say, me, who, from the moment I was born, was, a
sinful little *****, so sinful I tell you, that, no matter how
righteous a life I lived thereafter, I would be sent to hell and be
burned forever and ever and ever, ad infinitum for not seeing clearly
that these half-stepping, double dipping, glory seeking people telling
me about Jesus Christ were on to something, and accepting him as my
saviour, then I tell you, that might mean something to me.
L.Roberts.
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
|
| Title: Re: INTELLIGENT DESIGN? |
03 Dec 2005 05:56:42 PM |
|
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"L.Roberts" <ozzcat2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1133486709.965389.31560@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Bill Gamelson" <bill_gamelson@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:O9nif.43358$2k5.20202@dukeread09...
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:bcujo1h9osgoi4lbh17dge7g01ihv0nel4@4ax.com...
On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 12:43:25 -0500, "Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net>
wrote:
??????? wrote:
And what of Christ's suffering? It wasn't, as described, anything
too
all bad when compared to the suffering inflicted upon some of the
victims of the Inquisition, or worse, the suffering of those who
lived
for days and months after being horribly burned by the atom bombs
dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki for instance.
That is one of the most ignorant, crule and most stupid comment I have
ever heard in my entire life. Jesus had to feel every single emotion
that
man would ever feel, and he had to feel it harder than any man would
ever
feel it for him to be able to say "I paid your price."
The difference is, that the ones above had no choice, but Jesus DID
have
a choice and could have talked His way out of crucifixion in no time, by
just sucking up a little to the Sanhedrin and showing Himself to be
merely
one of the boys.
But Christ did not, for to make His point He had to die, mostly to
catch
the attention of the spiritually deaf and lost, for He came for those
primarily. He was our Father which is in Heaven, come in the flesh of the
Son to save His children at the risk of His precious and wholly innocent
physical life, much like most parents would give their lives to save
their
children ...yes, even the thankless, spoiled and mouthy brats.
If i was doing some good drugs and somehow convinced myself, 100%, that
I would resurrect in three days, all better, and would then go on to be
king of mankind forevermore, with billions of obsequious people
fighting about who would get to sit at my left and right and trying to
lick at my hand like good puppies, calling me lord, well, I might
suffer a bit and give my life for that.
If Christ was to pay the price for, like say, a trillion sinners, then
he should be given the pain receptors of a trillion human bodies and
put upon the surface of the hottest type of star known to man and be
burned forever and ever and ever, ad infinitum, then his gesture for
the sake of, like say, me, who, from the moment I was born, was, a
sinful little *****, so sinful I tell you, that, no matter how
righteous a life I lived thereafter, I would be sent to hell and be
burned forever and ever and ever, ad infinitum for not seeing clearly
that these half-stepping, double dipping, glory seeking people telling
me about Jesus Christ were on to something, and accepting him as my
saviour, then I tell you, that might mean something to me.
L.Roberts.
Don't be a parent, for in your view children are just parasites, not
worth dying for. Yet on the other hand, you acknowledge to have been a
"sinful little *****", which is only one step away from repentance. Know,
that your Father which is in heaven went through the rejection and
humiliation, torture and death in the body of Christ, just for you, so that
you might live and have a life worth living.
And yes, you always have that choice: Either love, care and rejoice, or
nag, bewail and reject. One is heaven, the other hell.
.
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| User: "L.Roberts" |
|
| Title: Re: INTELLIGENT DESIGN? |
04 Dec 2005 06:37:39 PM |
|
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Pastor Frank wrote:
"L.Roberts" <ozzcat2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1133486709.965389.31560@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Bill Gamelson" <bill_gamelson@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:O9nif.43358$2k5.20202@dukeread09...
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:bcujo1h9osgoi4lbh17dge7g01ihv0nel4@4ax.com...
On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 12:43:25 -0500, "Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net>
wrote:
??????? wrote:
And what of Christ's suffering? It wasn't, as described, anything
too
all bad when compared to the suffering inflicted upon some of the
victims of the Inquisition, or worse, the suffering of those who
lived
for days and months after being horribly burned by the atom bombs
dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki for instance.
That is one of the most ignorant, crule and most stupid comment I have
ever heard in my entire life. Jesus had to feel every single emotion
that
man would ever feel, and he had to feel it harder than any man would
ever
feel it for him to be able to say "I paid your price."
The difference is, that the ones above had no choice, but Jesus DID
have
a choice and could have talked His way out of crucifixion in no time, by
just sucking up a little to the Sanhedrin and showing Himself to be
merely
one of the boys.
But Christ did not, for to make His point He had to die, mostly to
catch
the attention of the spiritually deaf and lost, for He came for those
primarily. He was our Father which is in Heaven, come in the flesh of the
Son to save His children at the risk of His precious and wholly innocent
physical life, much like most parents would give their lives to save
their
children ...yes, even the thankless, spoiled and mouthy brats.
If i was doing some good drugs and somehow convinced myself, 100%, that
I would resurrect in three days, all better, and would then go on to be
king of mankind forevermore, with billions of obsequious people
fighting about who would get to sit at my left and right and trying to
lick at my hand like good puppies, calling me lord, well, I might
suffer a bit and give my life for that.
If Christ was to pay the price for, like say, a trillion sinners, then
he should be given the pain receptors of a trillion human bodies and
put upon the surface of the hottest type of star known to man and be
burned forever and ever and ever, ad infinitum, then his gesture for
the sake of, like say, me, who, from the moment I was born, was, a
sinful little *****, so sinful I tell you, that, no matter how
righteous a life I lived thereafter, I would be sent to hell and be
burned forever and ever and ever, ad infinitum for not seeing clearly
that these half-stepping, double dipping, glory seeking people telling
me about Jesus Christ were on to something, and accepting him as my
saviour, then I tell you, that might mean something to me.
L.Roberts.
Don't be a parent, for in your view children are just parasites, not
worth dying for.
"...view children as just parasites,...," how did you get that?
I have children and would do the heroic thing on their behalf without
hesitating, or giving thought to, as atheists in foxholes are accused
of by know it all theists, you know, the God thing.
I can think of nothing, nothing at all, that any of my children could
ever do to me, or anyone else, that would make me want punish them for
so long, so cruelly and so severly as that irrational God character of
Hebrew/Christian mythology is said to gonna punish those who fail to
believe the ***** we find in the Bible. And I can't say, look at
Christians Frank, there aren't any.
Yet on the other hand, you acknowledge to have been a
"sinful little *****",
lol Pastor, did I really need to put, "born a sinful little *****
(with the qualifyer) -as some religi-idiotic jackasses would have us
believe- ? I was being jocular there Dad.
which is only one step away from repentance. Know,
that your Father which is in heaven went through the rejection and
humiliation, torture and death in the body of Christ, just for you, so that
you might live and have a life worth living.
What Christ is said to have endured is as naught compared to the
suffering one person immersed in a lake of fire, eternally, might
endure. Naught I tell you.
And yes, you always have that choice: Either love, care and rejoice, or
nag, bewail and reject. One is heaven, the other hell.
Love, or rather caring, is something I do anyhow, sometimes for the
sake of others, sometimes for the sake of myself and sometimes for the
sake of all concerned. The Golden Rule is an ideal, many examples of
the 'good' of which, by persons with and without 'belief' in a god, can
be found.
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: INTELLIGENT DESIGN? |
06 Dec 2005 07:27:01 AM |
|
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"L.Roberts" <ozzcat2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1133743059.054592.145960@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
Don't be a parent, for in your view children are just parasites, not
worth dying for.
"...view children as just parasites,...," how did you get that?
Our Father which is in heaven came into reality as the Son and laid down
His precious and totally innocent life for us sinners, so that we might have
a life worth living, free from guilt and shame.
I have children and would do the heroic thing on their behalf without
hesitating, or giving thought to, as atheists in foxholes are accused
of by know it all theists, you know, the God thing.
So why pat yourself on the back for your mere intentions to "do the
right thing by your children", but lambaste and vilify God who actually did
come and did lay down His precious and innocent life for us, so that we
might have a life worth living, free from shame and guilt?
I can think of nothing, nothing at all, that any of my children could
ever do to me, or anyone else, that would make me want punish them for
so long, so cruelly and so severly as that irrational God character of
Hebrew/Christian mythology is said to gonna punish those who fail to
believe the ***** we find in the Bible. And I can't say, look at
Christians Frank, there aren't any.
You don't go to heaven for believing the "bullshipt" that is in the
Bible. Even learning to recite the whole Bible from memory will not get you
to haven. The only thing that will get you to heaven is the quality of your
relationship with your heavenly Dad. If you hate your heavenly Father than
going to heaven where He relides, and being in association with His friends
is going to be hell for you. But going to hell where all your friends are,
won't be satisfying either. Therefore wherever you go will be hell.
Furthermore, how long a time is hell eternal in a timeless environment?
Love, or rather caring, is something I do anyhow, sometimes for the
sake of others, sometimes for the sake of myself and sometimes for the
sake of all concerned. The Golden Rule is an ideal, many examples of
the 'good' of which, by persons with and without 'belief' in a god, can
be found.
I am glad to see you can make sense if you want to. The "god" you so
disdain is an ideal also. He represents the ideal person, whom we are to
emulate. See below
Pastor Frank
Jesus in Matthew. 5:48: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father
which is in heaven is
perfect.
.
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| User: "L.Roberts" |
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| Title: Re: INTELLIGENT DESIGN? |
12 Dec 2005 05:17:00 PM |
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Pastor Frank wrote:
"L.Roberts" <ozzcat2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1133743059.054592.145960@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
Don't be a parent, for in your view children are just parasites, not
worth dying for.
"...view children as just parasites,...," how did you get that?
Our Father which is in heaven came into reality as the Son and laid down
His precious and totally innocent life for us sinners, so that we might have
a life worth living, free from guilt and shame.
That is hardly an answer to my question Frank. And as far as guilt and
shame go, I am absolutely guilt free and shame free notwithstanding the
efforts the religi-idiotic bastards in the church I grew up in.
I have children and would do the heroic thing on their behalf without
hesitating, or giving thought to, as atheists in foxholes are accused
of by know it all theists, you know, the God thing.
So why pat yourself on the back for your mere intentions to "do the
right thing by your children", but lambaste and vilify God who actually did
come and did lay down His precious and innocent life for us, so that we
might have a life worth living, free from shame and guilt?
What God Frank? If you mean the one, as I believe you do, that so
called Christianity pays lip service to, I only pointed out that so
called Christianity blows the reputed suffering of the son and the
sacrifice of the father way, way, way out of proportion, nothing more
than that, Frank.
I can think of nothing, nothing at all, that any of my children could
ever do to me, or anyone else, that would make me want punish them for
so long, so cruelly and so severly as that irrational God character of
Hebrew/Christian mythology is said to gonna punish those who fail to
believe the ***** we find in the Bible. And I can't say, look at
Christians Frank, there aren't any.
You don't go to heaven for believing the "bullshipt" that is in the
Bible. Even learning to recite the whole Bible from memory will not get you
to haven. The only thing that will get you to heaven is the quality of your
relationship with your heavenly Dad.
Spare me Frank, I probably know the Bible as well as yourself, only, I
take it literally and, consequently, do not believe it.
If you hate your heavenly Father
You're enough to try the patience of a veritable saint Frank.
than
going to heaven where He relides, and being in association with His friends
is going to be hell for you. But going to hell where all your friends are,
won't be satisfying either. Therefore wherever you go will be hell.
Furthermore, how long a time is hell eternal in a timeless environment?
Love, or rather caring, is something I do anyhow, sometimes for the
sake of others, sometimes for the sake of myself and sometimes for the
sake of all concerned. The Golden Rule is an ideal, many examples of
the 'good' of which, by persons with and without 'belief' in a god, can
be found.
I am glad to see you can make sense if you want to. The "god" you so
disdain is an ideal also.
Frank, you know god damned well it is the likes of yourself I distain,
again, what God Frank, the one you imagine is really out there
somewhere? You have no evidence and cannot even make a reasonably good
argument to validate your hypothesis.
He represents the ideal person, whom we are to
emulate. See below
From what I read in the Bible, and see of so called Christianity, you
better get trying harder Frank, although: God hates, so called
Christianity emulates, you do ok there.
Pastor Frank
Jesus in Matthew. 5:48: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father
which is in heaven is
perfect.
.
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| User: "L.Roberts" |
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| Title: Re: INTELLIGENT DESIGN? |
27 Nov 2005 12:53:55 PM |
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Bill Gamelson wrote:
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:bcujo1h9osgoi4lbh17dge7g01ihv0nel4@4ax.com...
On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 12:43:25 -0500, "Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net>
wrote:
And what of Christ's suffering? It wasn't, as described, anything too
all bad when compared to the suffering inflicted upon some of the
victims of the Inquisition, or worse, the suffering of those who lived
for days and months after being horribly burned by the atom bombs
dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki for instance.
That is one of the most ignorant, crule and most stupid comment I have ever
heard in my entire life. Jesus had to feel every single emotion that man
would ever feel, and he had to feel it harder than any man would ever feel
it for him to be able to say "I paid your price."
Speculation.
.
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| User: "Bill Gamelson" |
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| Title: Re: INTELLIGENT DESIGN? |
27 Nov 2005 01:02:43 PM |
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"L.Roberts" <ozzcat2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1133117635.522018.317100@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Bill Gamelson wrote:
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:bcujo1h9osgoi4lbh17dge7g01ihv0nel4@4ax.com...
On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 12:43:25 -0500, "Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net>
wrote:
And what of Christ's suffering? It wasn't, as described, anything too
all bad when compared to the suffering inflicted upon some of the
victims of the Inquisition, or worse, the suffering of those who
lived
for days and months after being horribly burned by the atom bombs
dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki for instance.
That is one of the most ignorant, crule and most stupid comment I have
ever
heard in my entire life. Jesus had to feel every single emotion that man
would ever feel, and he had to feel it harder than any man would ever
feel
it for him to be able to say "I paid your price."
Speculation.
So?
.
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| User: "L.Roberts" |
|
| Title: Re: INTELLIGENT DESIGN? |
27 Nov 2005 01:13:32 PM |
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Bill Gamelson wrote:
"L.Roberts" <ozzcat2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1133117635.522018.317100@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Bill Gamelson wrote:
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:bcujo1h9osgoi4lbh17dge7g01ihv0nel4@4ax.com...
On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 12:43:25 -0500, "Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net>
wrote:
And what of Christ's suffering? It wasn't, as described, anything too
all bad when compared to the suffering inflicted upon some of the
victims of the Inquisition, or worse, the suffering of those who
lived
for days and months after being horribly burned by the atom bombs
dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki for instance.
That is one of the most ignorant, crule and most stupid comment I have
ever
heard in my entire life. Jesus had to feel every single emotion that man
would ever feel, and he had to feel it harder than any man would ever
feel
it for him to be able to say "I paid your price."
Speculation.
So?
So? So what?
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: INTELLIGENT DESIGN? |
27 Nov 2005 03:09:21 PM |
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"Pramod Subramanyan" <pramod.sub@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1132994951.956804.109680@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Ike" <accordiondocxyzxyzxyz@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:7FUaf.5046$m81.2275@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
"Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net> wrote in message
news:1131029388.882916@w9.dnx.net...
"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:2Y7af.47815$Pp1.37118@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
Religious types claim that the universe would need a God creator and
that
God always was. It is more logical to conclude the Universe always
was.
There is physical objective verifiable evidence for the existence of
the
Universe. There is absolutely no objective verifiable evidence for
the
existence of ANY Gods.
Well, for once you have part of this correct. We do believe that God
is
eternal, and the universe is not.
What universe? How can I observe a universe? Scientific method requires
replicable observations. You can look out the window and so can I. We
will
see different things. Where is the universe? If you say all around,
then
all around what... all around everything? Is there anything around what
is
all around? That can't be proved or disproved since it is too general
or
too self-referencing a statement. It is not a thing that can be
observed.
Or if it is, where can I see it?
It's obviously a miracle, and perhaps Shakespeare was right in saying:
"The world is of the stuff that dreams are made of".
The world is an amazing place, and probably can be described as a
miracle. But the implication that beauty and truth require the
existence of intelligence is questionable.
The consequence would be, that we are always in the process of having
our expectations fulfilled.
Not quite. Unfortunate and unplanned things do happen and there is no
running away from them.
Who said, that all expectations must be planned? Most people when
desiring to be rich, don't mean being marooned on an island, alone except
for the company of all the world's gold or money. Actually, what they mean
is, they want to be happy. But the next question is, would they be happy
with only what money could buy?
"What you seek you will find" said Christ, and people that look to love
and
care and to be humane, will find that returned to them multiplied.
True. But do we really need an imaginary enforcer threatening eternal
punishment to be decent people? The religious attempt to portray men as
evil beasts who need to be kept on a tight leash with a system of
reward and punishment is one of my prime complaints.
You have never been in war, or you would know, that man is indeed an
"evil beast", that needs to "be kept on a leash", that's why we have laws
and judicial systems to enforce it, right up to the death penalty. Yet even
those laws to not prevent wars, only the love of our Father which is in
heaven can.
If you have a better system of getting humans to act humane towards each
other, by all means tell us about it and give the system a name, so we can
proselytize it.
Btw. how long is "eternal punishment" in a timeless environment?
However those who look for punishment for past sins, will find that too.
That is why in Christianity God's grace, the repentance and forgiveness
of sins is so central.
A human being is a part of the whole, called by us "Universe," a part
limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and
feelings as something separated from the rest a kind of optical
delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for
us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few
persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this
prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living
creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. Nobody is able to
achieve this completely, but the striving for such achievement is in
itself a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security.
-- Albert Einstein
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pramod Subramanyan" |
|
| Title: Re: INTELLIGENT DESIGN? |
28 Nov 2005 03:57:36 AM |
|
|
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Pramod Subramanyan" <pramod.sub@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1132994951.956804.109680@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Ike" <accordiondocxyzxyzxyz@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:7FUaf.5046$m81.2275@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
"Carl Rooker" <rookerc@dnx.net> wrote in message
news:1131029388.882916@w9.dnx.net...
"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:2Y7af.47815$Pp1.37118@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
Religious types claim that the universe would need a God creator and
that
God always was. It is more logical to conclude the Universe always
was.
There is physical objective verifiable evidence for the existence of
the
Universe. There is absolutely no objective verifiable evidence for
the
existence of ANY Gods.
Well, for once you have part of this correct. We do believe that God
is
eternal, and the universe is not.
What universe? How can I observe a universe? Scientific method requires
replicable observations. You can look out the window and so can I. We
will
see different things. Where is the universe? If you say all around,
then
all around what... all around everything? Is there anything around what
is
all around? That can't be proved or disproved since it is too general
or
too self-referencing a statement. It is not a thing that can be
observed.
Or if it is, where can I see it?
It's obviously a miracle, and perhaps Shakespeare was right in saying:
"The world is of the stuff that dreams are made of".
The world is an amazing place, and probably can be described as a
miracle. But the implication that beauty and truth require the
existence of intelligence is questionable.
The consequence would be, that we are always in the process of having
our expectations fulfilled.
Not quite. Unfortunate and unplanned things do happen and there is no
running away from them.
Who said, that all expectations must be planned? Most people when
desiring to be rich, don't mean being marooned on an island, alone except
for the company of all the world's gold or money. Actually, what they mean
is, they want to be happy. But the next question is, would they be happy
with only what money could buy?
"What you seek you will find" said Christ, and people that look to love
and
care and to be humane, will find that returned to them multiplied.
True. But do we really need an imaginary enforcer threatening eternal
punishment to be decent people? The religious attempt to portray men as
evil beasts who need to be kept on a tight leash with a system of
reward and punishment is one of my prime complaints.
You have never been in war, or you would know, that man is indeed an
"evil beast", that needs to "be kept on a leash", that's why we have laws
and judicial systems to enforce it, right up to the death penalty. Yet even
those laws to not prevent wars, only the love of our Father which is in
heaven can.
I think with more education, development and opportunities people will
realise the futility of war and crime.
If you have a better system of getting humans to act humane towards each
other, by all means tell us about it and give the system a name, so we can
proselytize it.
Education.
Perhaps the most valuable result of all education is the ability to
make yourself do the thing you have to do, when it ought to be done,
whether you like it or not; it is the first lesson that ought to be
learned; and however early a man's training begins, it is probably the
last lesson that he learns thoroughly.
Thomas H. Huxley
Btw. how long is "eternal punishment" in a timeless environment?
Good question. I don't know and I don't care either because it doesn't
exist. I was just trying to point out the contradictions in the
religious point of view.
However those who look for punishment for past sins, will find that too.
That is why in Christianity God's grace, the repentance and forgiveness
of sins is so central.
A human being is a part of the whole, called by us "Universe," a part
limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and
feelings as something separated from the rest a kind of optical
delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for
us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few
persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this
prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living
creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. Nobody is able to
achieve this completely, but the striving for such achievement is in
itself a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security.
-- Albert Einstein
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Frank" |
|
| Title: Re: INTELLIGENT DESIGN? |
29 Nov 2005 04:34:52 PM |
|
|
"Pramod Subramanyan" <pramod.sub@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133171856.829679.86340@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
If you have a better system of getting humans to act humane towards
each
other, by all means tell us about it and give the system a name, so we
can
proselytize it.
Education.
Perhaps the most valuable result of all education is the ability to
make yourself do the thing you have to do, when it ought to be done,
whether you like it or not; it is the first lesson that ought to be
learned; and however early a man's training begins, it is probably the
last lesson that he learns thoroughly.
Thomas H. Huxley
Yes. Germans were the best educated in the world and their superb
scientists were busy devising better methods to kill large numbers of people
that their government did not like, such as Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals,
Communists and the list goes on and on and all these well educated people
did not object, nor refuse their services.
That is why we need God, for our holy Father which is in heaven
symbolizes perfection. We are to be holy people in His image, humane,
loving, caring and kind. Character qualities are not the purview of
education.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bill" |
|
| Title: Re: INTELLIGENT DESIGN? |
29 Nov 2005 07:16:04 PM |
|
|
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:1133303692.5dbab75caea5cae76844d8023e6aba40@fe5.teranews.com...
"Pramod Subramanyan" <pramod.sub@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133171856.829679.86340@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
If you have a better system of getting humans to act humane towards
each
other, by all means tell us about it and give the system a name, so we
can
proselytize it.
Education.
Perhaps the most valuable result of all education is the ability to
make yourself do the thing you have to do, when it ought to be done,
whether you like it or not; it is the first lesson that ought to be
learned; and however early a man's training begins, it is probably the
last lesson that he learns thoroughly.
Thomas H. Huxley
Yes. Germans were the best educated in the world and their superb
scientists were busy devising better methods to kill large numbers of
people that their government did not like, such as Jews, Gypsies,
Homosexuals, Communists and the list goes on and on and all these well
educated people did not object, nor refuse their services.
That is why we need God, for our holy Father which is in heaven
symbolizes perfection. We are to be holy people in His image, humane,
loving, caring and kind. Character qualities are not the purview of
education.
What about those millions of uneducated Africans that engage in killing each
other?
Why doesn't your god educate and feed them? A little basic health protection
would also be helpful.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Frank" |
|
| Title: Re: INTELLIGENT DESIGN? |
30 Nov 2005 09:13:32 AM |
|
|
"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:917jf.43476$6y4.18804@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:1133303692.5dbab75caea5cae76844d8023e6aba40@fe5.teranews.com...
"Pramod Subramanyan" <pramod.sub@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133171856.829679.86340@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
If you have a better system of getting humans to act humane towards
each
other, by all means tell us about it and give the system a name, so we
can
proselytize it.
Education.
Perhaps the most valuable result of all education is the ability to
make yourself do the thing you have to do, when it ought to be done,
whether you like it or not; it is the first lesson that ought to be
learned; and however early a man's training begins, it is probably the
last lesson that he learns thoroughly.
Thomas H. Huxley
Yes. Germans were the best educated in the world and their superb
scientists were busy devising better methods to kill large numbers of
people that their government did not like, such as Jews, Gypsies,
Homosexuals, Communists and the list goes on and on and all these well
educated people did not object, nor refuse their services.
That is why we need God, for our holy Father which is in heaven
symbolizes perfection. We are to be holy people in His image, humane,
loving, caring and kind. Character qualities are not the purview of
education.
What about those millions of uneducated Africans that engage in killing
each other?
Why doesn't your god educate and feed them? A little basic health
protection would also be helpful.
God works through willing people. Are you volunteering? See Christ on
the subject below
Pastor Frank
Jesus in John 14:10: The words that I speak unto you I speak
not of myself, but the Father that dwelleth in me, He doeth the works."
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Pramod Subramanyan" |
|
| Title: Re: INTELLIGENT DESIGN? |
30 Nov 2005 07:20:42 AM |
|
|
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Pramod Subramanyan" <pramod.sub@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133171856.829679.86340@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
If you have a better system of getting humans to act humane towards
each
other, by all means tell us about it and give the system a name, so we
can
proselytize it.
Education.
Perhaps the most valuable result of all education is the ability to
make yourself do the thing you have to do, when it ought to be done,
whether you like it or not; it is the first lesson that ought to be
learned; and however early a man's training begins, it is probably the
last lesson that he learns thoroughly.
Thomas H. Huxley
Yes. Germans were the best educated in the world and their superb
scientists were busy devising better methods to kill large numbers of people
that their government did not like, such as Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals,
Communists and the list goes on and on and all these well educated people
did not object, nor refuse their services.
That is why we need God, for our holy Father which is in heaven
symbolizes perfection. We are to be holy people in His image, humane,
loving, caring and kind. Character qualities are not the purview of
education.
The objective of a good education is not to produce zombies who score
1600s in their GRE, it is to produce enlightened citizens who
understand their duties, responsiblities, obligations, and what it
takes to lead a happy fulfulling life. An appreciation of a the
complexities of real life issues, and the mental strength to stand up
for ones convictions, the willingness to learn and perserverance are
what make a man educated, not an instinct for solving differential
equations by inspection.
What we really need is the strength to accept that sometimes what we
want to believe in and what actually exists are two different things.
And the conviction that we can stand up and face the world on our own
without imaginary crutches, or invisible friends. And the courage to
fight for what is right, not what is convenient.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Frank" |
|
| Title: Re: INTELLIGENT DESIGN? |
02 Dec 2005 05:03:26 AM |
|
|
"Pramod Subramanyan" <pramod.sub@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133356842.146709.127400@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
What we really need is the strength to accept that sometimes what we
want to believe in and what actually exists are two different things.
This doesn't apply to religion, for religion is about desirable
character qualities which don't exist as yet, but need to be brought into
existence. Religion is about ideals, not about invisible divinities, as
atheists suppose.
.
|
|
|
| User: "L.Roberts" |
|
| Title: Re: INTELLIGENT DESIGN? |
02 Dec 2005 07:39:43 AM |
|
|
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Pramod Subramanyan" <pramod.sub@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133356842.146709.127400@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
What we really need is the strength to accept that sometimes what we
want to believe in and what actually exists are two different things.
This doesn't apply to religion, for religion is about desirable
character qualities which don't exist as yet, but need to be brought into
existence. Religion is about ideals, not about invisible divinities, as
atheists suppose.
Then why use fear tactics, and, ludicrous *****, to promote those
'ideals', which, should, ideally, stand on their own merits?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Frank" |
|
| Title: Re: INTELLIGENT DESIGN? |
04 Dec 2005 03:14:28 PM |
|
|
"L.Roberts" <ozzcat2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1133530783.734793.243660@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Pramod Subramanyan" <pramod.sub@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133356842.146709.127400@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
What we really need is the strength to accept that sometimes what we
want to believe in and what actually exists are two different things.
This doesn't apply to religion, for religion is about desirable
character qualities which don't exist as yet, but need to be brought into
existence. Religion is about ideals, not about invisible divinities, as
atheists suppose.
Then why use fear tactics, and, ludicrous *****, to promote those
'ideals', which, should, ideally, stand on their own merits?
They don't "stand on their own merit" for without example they are
subject to ludicrous definitions. The "adversary" doesn't mind you having a
lot of good theoretical values, as long as you don't compare them with
actual performance, such as the love and devotion to the death demonstrated
by Jesus Christ. We don't ask ourselves: Did I act kindly? (in accord with
our own personal and private definition of "kindly", which could be
anything. We would rather ask at every moral juncture: What would Jesus do?
The "ludicrous *****" is poetic licence designed to confuse the proud
and self-justified. Most Christians know how to interpret in the Holy
Spirit, meaning as the author intended.
.
|
|
|
| User: "L.Roberts" |
|
| Title: Re: INTELLIGENT DESIGN? |
04 Dec 2005 06:07:16 PM |
|
|
Pastor Frank wrote:
"L.Roberts" <ozzcat2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1133530783.734793.243660@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Pramod Subramanyan" <pramod.sub@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133356842.146709.127400@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
What we really need is the strength to accept that sometimes what we
want to believe in and what actually exists are two different things.
This doesn't apply to religion, for religion is about desirable
character qualities which don't exist as yet, but need to be brought into
existence. Religion is about ideals, not about invisible divinities, as
atheists suppose.
Then why use fear tactics, and, ludicrous *****, to promote those
'ideals', which, should, ideally, stand on their own merits?
They don't "stand on their own merit" for without example they are
subject to ludicrous definitions. The "adversary" doesn't mind you having a
lot of good theoretical values, as long as you don't compare them with
actual performance, such as the love and devotion to the death demonstrated
by Jesus Christ. We don't ask ourselves: Did I act kindly? (in accord with
our own personal and private definition of "kindly", which could be
anything. We would rather ask at every moral juncture: What would Jesus do?
The "ludicrous *****" is poetic licence designed to confuse the proud
and self-justified. Most Christians know how to interpret in the Holy
Spirit, meaning as the author intended.
Quite frankly Pastor Frank, what quickly and easily comes to mind here,
as regards your nearly inexplicable explanation, is the old saw, 'If
you can't dazzling them with brilliance, baffle them with *****.'
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Frank" |
|
| Title: Re: INTELLIGENT DESIGN? |
06 Dec 2005 07:26:59 AM |
|
|
"L.Roberts" <ozzcat2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1133741236.483191.38840@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"L.Roberts" <ozzcat2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1133530783.734793.243660@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Pramod Subramanyan" <pramod.sub@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133356842.146709.127400@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
What we really need is the strength to accept that sometimes what we
want to believe in and what actually exists are two different
things.
This doesn't apply to religion, for religion is about desirable
character qualities which don't exist as yet, but need to be brought
into
existence. Religion is about ideals, not about invisible divinities,
as
atheists suppose.
Then why use fear tactics, and, ludicrous *****, to promote those
'ideals', which, should, ideally, stand on their own merits?
They don't "stand on their own merit" for without example they are
subject to ludicrous definitions. The "adversary" doesn't mind you having
a
lot of good theoretical values, as long as you don't compare them with
actual performance, such as the love and devotion to the death
demonstrated
by Jesus Christ. We don't ask ourselves: Did I act kindly? (in accord
with
our own personal and private definition of "kindly", which could be
anything. We would rather ask at every moral juncture: What would Jesus
do?
The "ludicrous *****" is poetic licence designed to confuse the
proud
and self-justified. Most Christians know how to interpret in the Holy
Spirit, meaning as the author intended.
Quite frankly Pastor Frank, what quickly and easily comes to mind here,
as regards your nearly inexplicable explanation, is the old saw, 'If
you can't dazzling them with brilliance, baffle them with *****.'
Why do you bother with philosophical groups if you can't grasp
philosophical discourse. If you read the above mindfully, you will notice it
contains an awful lot of psychology, which needs a little thinking to
understand. And no, we are not in the business of proving the incredible by
means of the preposterous. The god of your definition does indeed not exist.
.
|
|
|
| User: "L.Roberts" |
|
| Title: Re: INTELLIGENT DESIGN? |
12 Dec 2005 05:19:45 PM |
|
|
Pastor Frank wrote:
"L.Roberts" <ozzcat2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1133741236.483191.38840@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"L.Roberts" <ozzcat2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1133530783.734793.243660@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Pramod Subramanyan" <pramod.sub@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133356842.146709.127400@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
What we really need is the strength to accept that sometimes what we
want to believe in and what actually exists are two different
things.
This doesn't apply to religion, for religion is about desirable
character qualities which don't exist as yet, but need to be brought
into
existence. Religion is about ideals, not about invisible divinities,
as
atheists suppose.
Then why use fear tactics, and, ludicrous *****, to promote those
'ideals', which, should, ideally, stand on their own merits?
They don't "stand on their own merit" for without example they are
subject to ludicrous definitions. The "adversary" doesn't mind you having
a
lot of good theoretical values, as long as you don't compare them with
actual performance, such as the love and devotion to the death
demonstrated
by Jesus Christ. We don't ask ourselves: Did I act kindly? (in accord
with
our own personal and private definition of "kindly", which could be
anything. We would rather ask at every moral juncture: What would Jesus
do?
The "ludicrous *****" is poetic licence designed to confuse the
proud
and self-justified. Most Christians know how to interpret in the Holy
Spirit, meaning as the author intended.
Quite frankly Pastor Frank, what quickly and easily comes to mind here,
as regards your nearly inexplicable explanation, is the old saw, 'If
you can't dazzling them with brilliance, baffle them with *****.'
Why do you bother with philosophical groups if you can't grasp
philosophical discourse. If you read the above mindfully, you will notice it
contains an awful lot of psychology, which needs a little thinking to
understand. And no, we are not in the business of proving the incredible by
means of the preposterous. The god of your definition does indeed not exist.
Frank, you are just so full of *****.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Frank" |
|
| Title: Re: INTELLIGENT DESIGN? |
20 Dec 2005 04:58:59 PM |
|
|
"L.Roberts" <ozzcat2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134429585.283661.140610@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
Why do you bother with philosophical groups if you can't grasp
philosophical discourse. If you read the above mindfully, you will notice
it
contains an awful lot of psychology, which needs a little thinking to
understand. And no, we are not in the business of proving the incredible
by
means of the preposterous. The god of your definition does indeed not
exist.
Frank, you are just so full of *****.
Does that mean you believe the god of your definition DOES exist after
all?
.
|
|
|
| User: "L.Roberts." |
|
| Title: Re: INTELLIGENT DESIGN? |
20 Dec 2005 05:48:17 PM |
|
|
Pastor Frank wrote:
"L.Roberts" <ozzcat2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134429585.283661.140610@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
Why do you bother with philosophical groups if you can't grasp
philosophical discourse. If you read the above mindfully, you will notice
it
contains an awful lot of psychology, which needs a little thinking to
understand. And no, we are not in the business of proving the incredible
by
means of the preposterous. The god of your definition does indeed not
exist.
Frank, you are just so full of *****.
Does that mean you believe the god of your definition DOES exist after
all?
Nope, it just means that I think you are just sooooooooo full of *****.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Frank" |
|
| Title: Re: INTELLIGENT DESIGN? |
22 Dec 2005 06:00:00 PM |
|
|
"L.Roberts." <ozzcat2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1135122497.823768.285820@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"L.Roberts" <ozzcat2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1134429585.283661.140610@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
Why do you bother with philosophical groups if you can't grasp
philosophical discourse. If you read the above mindfully, you will
notice
it
contains an awful lot of psychology, which needs a little thinking to
understand. And no, we are not in the business of proving the
incredible
by
means of the preposterous. The god of your definition does indeed not
exist.
Frank, you are just so full of *****.
Does that mean you believe the god of your definition DOES exist
after
all?
Nope, it just means that I think you are just sooooooooo full of *****.
Do you mean in comparison to yourself, who is totally shitless?
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Frank" |
|
| Title: Re: INTELLIGENT DESIGN? |
02 Dec 2005 05:03:25 AM |
|
|
"Pramod Subramanyan" <pramod.sub@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133356842.146709.127400@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Pramod Subramanyan" <pramod.sub@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133171856.829679.86340@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
If you have a better system of getting humans to act humane
towards
each
other, by all means tell us about it and give the system a name, so we
can proselytize it.
Education.
Perhaps the most valuable result of all education is the ability to
make yourself do the thing you have to do, when it ought to be done,
whether you like it or not; it is the first lesson that ought to be
learned; and however early a man's training begins, it is probably the
last lesson that he learns thoroughly.
Thomas H. Huxley
Yes. Germans were the best educated in the world and their superb
scientists were busy devising better methods to kill large numbers of
people
that their government did not like, such as Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals,
Communists and the list goes on and on and all these well educated people
did not object, nor refuse their services.
That is why we need God, for our holy Father which is in heaven
symbolizes perfection. We are to be holy people in His image, humane,
loving, caring and kind. Character qualities are not the purview of
education.
The objective of a good education is not to produce zombies who score
1600s in their GRE, it is to produce enlightened citizens who
understand their duties, responsiblities, obligations, and what it
takes to lead a happy fulfulling life.
For that people usually follow some philosophy of life, realism,
dialectic materialism, religion etc. etc. There has to be a sourse for one's
definition of what it means to be an "enightened citizen". Jesus gave us His
commandments: Care about others as you care for yourself. This commandment
alone would make all wars impossible, and totally eliminate all of man's
inhumanity to man.
What happened? People who profit from inhumanity to man went and denied
Christ's definition of "the enlightened citizen" so they can practice their
craft of torture, killing and confiscation of property. Their propagandists
justify such actions, resulting in the jealous, the greedy and the easily
lead jumping on the band-waggon.
An appreciation of a the
complexities of real life issues, and the mental strength to stand up
for ones convictions,
Again, where do those "convictions" come from, if not a belief system of
sorts?
the willingness to learn and perserverance are
what make a man educated, not an instinct for solving differential
equations by inspection.
What we really need is the strength to accept that sometimes what we
want to believe in and what actually exists are two different things.
And the conviction that we can stand up and face the world on our own
without imaginary crutches, or invisible friends. And the courage to
fight for what is right, not what is convenient.
All noble aims and objectives, yet the question remains on what
particular belief system they are based. In Christianity the unified field
theory is God = love, and he who loves is in God, and God is in him. We
believe, that love is most powerful motivator for good known to man, and
that love is what keeps the universe in being. It's upon what everything in
the Christian belief system is predicated.
.
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| User: "Pramod Subramanyan" |
|
| Title: Re: INTELLIGENT DESIGN? |
02 Dec 2005 07:35:37 AM |
|
|
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Pramod Subramanyan" <pramod.sub@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133356842.146709.127400@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Pramod Subramanyan" <pramod.sub@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133171856.829679.86340@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
If you have a better system of getting humans to act humane
towards
each
other, by all means tell us about it and give the system a name, so we
can proselytize it.
Education.
Perhaps the most valuable result of all education is the ability to
make yourself do the thing you have to do, when it ought to be done,
whether you like it or not; it is the first lesson that ought to be
learned; and however early a man's training begins, it is probably the
last lesson that he learns thoroughly.
Thomas H. Huxley
Yes. Germans were the best educated in the world and their superb
scientists were busy devising better methods to kill large numbers of
people
that their government did not like, such as Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals,
Communists and the list goes on and on and all these well educated people
did not object, nor refuse their services.
That is why we need God, for our holy Father which is in heaven
symbolizes perfection. We are to be holy people in His image, humane,
loving, caring and kind. Character qualities are not the purview of
education.
The objective of a good education is not to produce zombies who score
1600s in their GRE, it is to produce enlightened citizens who
understand their duties, responsiblities, obligations, and what it
takes to lead a happy fulfulling life.
For that people usually follow some philosophy of life, realism,
dialectic materialism, religion etc. etc. There has to be a sourse for one's
definition of what it means to be an "enightened citizen". Jesus gave us His
commandments: Care about others as you care for yourself. This commandment
alone would make all wars impossible, and totally eliminate all of man's
inhumanity to man.
I suppose, in the end, people want to happy. And they pursue what they
think, is the right course for happiness. And they should be free to
make their choices. At the same time, those choices should not impede
others lives. So as long as that principle is followed, then there
shouldn't be any conflict. And that is basically what you're saying.
And I agree with that.
What happened? People who profit from inhumanity to man went and denied
Christ's definition of "the enlightened citizen" so they can practice their
craft of torture, killing and confiscation of property. Their propagandists
justify such actions, resulting in the jealous, the greedy and the easily
lead jumping on the band-waggon.
Yes, people did all these things. And continue to do these things.
So whats to be done? I think that instead of frightening people, we
need to a) prevent conditions arising which lead to crime b) reason
rather than threaten.
An appreciation of a the
complexities of real life issues, and the mental strength to stand up
for ones convictions,
Again, where do those "convictions" come from, if not a belief system of
sorts?
Conviction, Belief System... probably the same thing. The important
difference is that mine does not include a god in the commonly used
sense of the word.
the willingness to learn and perserverance are
what make a man educated, not an instinct for solving differential
equations by inspection.
What we really need is the strength to accept that sometimes what we
want to believe in and what actually exists are two different things.
And the conviction that we can stand up and face the world on our own
without imaginary crutches, or invisible friends. And the courage to
fight for what is right, not what is convenient.
All noble aims and objectives, yet the question remains on what
particular belief system they are based. In Christianity the unified field
theory is God = love, and he who loves is in God, and God is in him. We
believe, that love is most powerful motivator for good known to man, and
that love is what keeps the universe in being. It's upon what everything in
the Christian belief system is predicated.
Well if religion were to confine itself to telling people to love each
other, I'd probably become religious myself. The problem is, it does a
lot more. Religion interferes with science, like in the cases of the
big bang (The Pope told Stephen Hawking that he ought not investigate
the big bang itself because it was the moment of creation and god's
work), stem cell research, evolution, etc. It also introduces problems
(and often violence) when claims are made about the superiority of one
religion over others. Again the millions of people have been murdered
in the name of religion. Issues like homosexuality and birth control
have become hugely controversial almost solely because religious
bigwigs take stands on these issues.
Religion itself is not blame for these problems, but because religion
hands down rules as edicts from god, rather than explanations based on
reason, it is easy to misinterpret, or perhaps even malevolently
misrepresent, religious edicts and use them for "evil" purposes. It
also becomes easy for people to believe that they're doing "God's
work", when they're simply fooling around making a nuisance of
themselves.
Which is why I'm not really a big fan of religion.
The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events, the
firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of
this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him
neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exists as an
independent cause of natural events. To be sure, the doctrine of a
personal God interfering with natural events could never be refuted, in
the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in
those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to
set foot. But I am persuaded that such behavior on the part of the
representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal.
For a doctrine which is able to maintain itself not in clear light, but
only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with
incalculable harm to human progress. In their struggle for the ethical
good, teachers of religion must have the stature to give up the
doctrine of a personal God, that is, give up that source of fear and
hope which in the past placed such vast powers in the hands of priests.
In their labors they will have to avail themselves of those forces
which are capable of cultivating the Good, the True, and the Beautiful
in humanity itself. This is, to be sure, a more difficult but an
incomparably more worthy task.
-- Albert Einstein
.
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|
|
| User: "Pastor Frank" |
|
| Title: Re: INTELLIGENT DESIGN? |
04 Dec 2005 03:14:23 PM |
|
|
"Pramod Subramanyan" <pramod.sub@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133530537.229367.89060@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
Conviction, Belief System... probably the same thing. The important
difference is that mine does not include a god in the commonly used
sense of the word.
What IS the "commonly used sense " of the word "god"? Whatever you say
here is likely not existing. Why not define the word "God" as the
originators of religions intended? I posted Christ's definition AND
explanation to a skeptical Philip innumerable times.
the willingness to learn and perserverance are
what make a man educated, not an instinct for solving differential
equations by inspection.
What we really need is the strength to accept that sometimes what we
want to believe in and what actually exists are two different things.
And the conviction that we can stand up and face the world on our own
without imaginary crutches, or invisible friends. And the courage to
fight for what is right, not what is convenient.
All noble aims and objectives, yet the question remains on what
particular belief system they are based. In Christianity the unified
field
theory is God = love, and he who loves is in God, and God is in him. We
believe, that love is most powerful motivator for good known to man, and
that love is what keeps the universe in being. It's upon what everything
in the Christian belief system is predicated.
Well if religion were to confine itself to telling people to love each
other, I'd probably become religious myself. The problem is, it does a
lot more. Religion interferes with science, like in the cases of the
big bang (The Pope told Stephen Hawking that he ought not investigate
the big bang itself because it was the moment of creation and god's
work), stem cell research, evolution, etc. It also introduces problems
(and often violence) when claims are made about the superiority of one
religion over others. Again the millions of people have been murdered
in the name of religion. Issues like homosexuality and birth control
have become hugely controversial almost solely because religious
bigwigs take stands on these issues.
Religion itself is not blame for these problems, but because religion
hands down rules as edicts from god, rather than explanations based on
reason, it is easy to misinterpret, or perhaps even malevolently
misrepresent, religious edicts and use them for "evil" purposes. It
also becomes easy for people to believe that they're doing "God's
work", when they're simply fooling around making a nuisance of
themselves.
Which is why I'm not really a big fan of religion.
The Christian religion is designed to allow people to live peaceably at
high densities on an overcrowded planet. Atheist individualism is not. The
NT Bible is extremely short on any involvement with science. It is strictly
concerned with qualities of attitudes, character and behaviour.
However the "adversary" is always active and seeks to muddy the waters,
leading the simple-minded into opposing and killing the good, while admiring
if not promoting the sly and lying hypocrites who profess Christ, yet do the
opposite from what Christ preached.
.
|
|
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| User: "Pramod Subramanyan" |
|
| Title: Re: INTELLIGENT DESIGN? |
05 Dec 2005 06:39:31 AM |
|
|
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Pramod Subramanyan" <pramod.sub@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133530537.229367.89060@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
Conviction, Belief System... probably the same thing. The important
difference is that mine does not include a god in the commonly used
sense of the word.
What IS the "commonly used sense " of the word "god"? Whatever you say
here is likely not existing. Why not define the word "God" as the
originators of religions intended? I posted Christ's definition AND
explanation to a skeptical Philip innumerable times.
I always thought that god was this chap who allegedly created the
universe, then created heaven and hell, supposedly helps people in
distress, supposedly responds to prayers, and so on.
the willingness to learn and perserverance are
what make a man educated, not an instinct for solving differential
equations by inspection.
What we really need is the strength to accept that sometimes what we
want to believe in and what actually exists are two different things.
And the conviction that we can stand up and face the world on our own
without imaginary crutches, or invisible friends. And the courage to
fight for what is right, not what is convenient.
All noble aims and objectives, yet the question remains on what
particular belief system they are based. In Christianity the unified
field
theory is God = love, and he who loves is in God, and God is in him. We
believe, that love is most powerful motivator for good known to man, and
that love is what keeps the universe in being. It's upon what everything
in the Christian belief system is predicated.
Well if religion were to confine itself to telling people to love each
other, I'd probably become religious myself. The problem is, it does a
lot more. Religion interferes with science, like in the cases of the
big bang (The Pope told Stephen Hawking that he ought not investigate
the big bang itself because it was the moment of creation and god's
work), stem cell research, evolution, etc. It also introduces problems
(and often violence) when claims are made about the superiority of one
religion over others. Again the millions of people have been murdered
in the name of religion. Issues like homosexuality and birth control
have become hugely controversial almost solely because religious
bigwigs take stands on these issues.
Religion itself is not blame for these problems, but because religion
hands down rules as edicts from god, rather than explanations based on
reason, it is easy to misinterpret, or perhaps even malevolently
misrepresent, religious edicts and use them for "evil" purposes. It
also becomes easy for people to believe that they're doing "God's
work", when they're simply fooling around making a nuisance of
themselves.
Which is why I'm not really a big fan of religion.
The Christian religion is designed to allow people to live peaceably at
high densities on an overcrowded planet. Atheist individualism is not. The
NT Bible is extremely short on any involvement with science. It is strictly
concerned with qualities of attitudes, character and behaviour.
"Atheist individualism is not. "
What is "Atheist Individualism"?
However the "adversary" is always active and seeks to muddy the waters,
leading the simple-minded into opposing and killing the good, while admiring
if not promoting the sly and lying hypocrites who profess Christ, yet do the
opposite from what Christ preached.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Richard Dawkins" |
|
| Title: Re: INTELLIGENT DESIGN? |
06 Dec 2005 11:31:52 PM |
|
|
"Pramod Subramanyan" <pramod.sub@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133786371.441724.71410@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Pramod Subramanyan" <pramod.sub@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1133530537.229367.89060@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
Conviction, Belief System... probably the same thing. The important
difference is that mine does not include a god in the commonly used
sense of the word.
What IS the "commonly used sense " of the word "god"? Whatever you
say
here is likely not existing. Why not define the word "God" as the
originators of religions intended? I posted Christ's definition AND
explanation to a skeptical Philip innumerable times.
I always thought that god was this chap who allegedly created the
universe, then created heaven and hell, supposedly helps people in
distress, supposedly responds to prayers, and so on.
the willingness to learn and perserverance are
what make a man educated, not an instinct for solving differential
equations by inspection.
What we really need is the strength to accept that sometimes what we
want to believe in and what actually exists are two different
things.
And the conviction that we can stand up and face the world on our
own
without imaginary crutches, or invisible friends. And the courage to
fight for what is right, not what is convenient.
All noble aims and objectives, yet the question remains on what
particular belief system they are based. In Christianity the unified
field
theory is God = love, and he who loves is in God, and God is in him.
We
believe, that love is most powerful motivator for good known to man,
and
that love is what keeps the universe in being. It's upon what
everything
in the Christian belief system is predicated.
Well if religion were to confine itself to telling people to love each
other, I'd probably become religious myself. The problem is, it does a
lot more. Religion interferes with science, like in the cases of the
big bang (The Pope told Stephen Hawking that he ought not investigate
the big bang itself because it was the moment of creation and god's
work), stem cell research, evolution, etc. It also introduces problems
(and often violence) when claims are made about the superiority of one
religion over others. Again the millions of people have been murdered
in the name of religion. Issues like homosexuality and birth control
have become hugely controversial almost solely because religious
bigwigs take stands on these issues.
Religion itself is not blame for these problems, but because religion
hands down rules as edicts from god, rather than explanations based on
reason, it is easy to misinterpret, or perhaps even malevolently
misrepresent, religious edicts and use them for "evil" purposes. It
also becomes easy for people to believe that they're doing "God's
work", when they're simply fooling around making a nuisance of
themselves.
Which is why I'm not really a big fan of religion.
The Christian religion is designed to allow people to live peaceably
at
high densities on an overcrowded planet. Atheist individualism is not.
The
NT Bible is extrem | | | | | | | | | |
