| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
21 May 2007 06:52:55 AM |
| Object: |
Re: Jefferson approves of religious curriculum |
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
:|
:|Actually, Jefferson said that the study of man's relation to God is
:|the highest reason for education...a further statement than I made.
:|
:|Ken Clifton
:|christiansuperhero.com
Your unsubstantiated claim is noted.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ordinary or extraordinary claims require ordinary or extraordinary
proof.
If you're going to claim something and especially something outlandish
you're going to need some pretty extraordinary and/or irrefutable proof to
back up such a claim. "Where's the beef?" Where's the ordinary or
extraordinary proof for their ordinary or extraordinary claims? If one is
not responding with ordinary or extraordinary, *factual* proof, then the
claim is not worth considering
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[ as Homer@nospam said]
Why is asking for "proof" considered truculence? Do you consider it
truculence for a judge to ask for evidence in a trial. Would you rather
that
people just testified that they believed in the guilt of the suspect?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[as Gray Shockley said:]
Your "opinion" is not an adequate citation.
You forgot your citations.
Or, are your opinions more valid than facts?
You do realize, do you not?, that opinion without substantiation is just
propaganda for those without critical thinking abilities and originate
with
those who are attempting to manipulate rather than those who are
attempting
to clarify.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
---
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
|
|
| User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson approves of religious curriculum |
21 May 2007 12:10:02 PM |
|
|
On May 21, 6:52 am, wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
:|
:|Actually, Jefferson said that the study of man's relation to God is
:|the highest reason for education...a further statement than I made.
:|
:|Ken Clifton
:|christiansuperhero.com
Your unsubstantiated claim is noted.
Proof you never read my quote from Jefferson to begin with, since that
passage is the source of my substantiated claim.
Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson approves of religious curriculum |
21 May 2007 10:20:09 PM |
|
|
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
On May 21, 6:52 am, wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
:|Actually, Jefferson said that the study of man's relation to God is
:|the highest reason for education...a further statement than I made.
That was NOT in fact what Jefferson said.
lojbab
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "SueDoeCyAnts" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson approves of religious curriculum |
07 Jan 2008 01:34:00 AM |
|
|
on Mon 21 May 2007 09:10:02a
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> posted
in news:1179767402.419936.142720@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com:
On May 21, 6:52 am, wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
:|
:|Actually, Jefferson said that the study of man's relation to
:|God is the highest reason for education...a further
:|statement than I made.
:|
:|Ken Clifton
:|christiansuperhero.com
Your unsubstantiated claim is noted.
Proof you never read my quote from Jefferson to begin with,
since that passage is the source of my substantiated claim.
Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
Please offer an attribution for this citation,
or admit you've got your head up where the sun don't shine.
I do not show it in my personal DB of Jefferson's works, which
although isn't complete, does include a scanned version of
"The Writings Of Thomas Jefferson", Definitive Edition,
Albert Ellery Bergh, Editor, Copyright, 1905,
The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association
which I am willing to wager is
one hell of a lot better archive than you possess.
Also of note is a google search using the string:
{jefferson "the study of man's relation to God is the highest
reason"}
<http://tinyurl.com/3yw6be>
which returned null.
I await you attribution for this quotation expectantly...
.
|
|
|
| User: "William Flax" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson approves of religious curriculum |
08 Jan 2008 08:53:19 AM |
|
|
See Below:
"SueDoeCyAnts" <pseudocy@labb.port5.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A1DEFBC9FE0AOriginaliseThisThief@198.186.190.161...
on Mon 21 May 2007 09:10:02a
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> posted
in news:1179767402.419936.142720@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com:
On May 21, 6:52 am, wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
:|
:|Actually, Jefferson said that the study of man's relation to
:|God is the highest reason for education...a further
:|statement than I made.
:|
:|Ken Clifton
:|christiansuperhero.com
Your unsubstantiated claim is noted.
Proof you never read my quote from Jefferson to begin with,
since that passage is the source of my substantiated claim.
Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
Please offer an attribution for this citation,
or admit you've got your head up where the sun don't shine.
I do not show it in my personal DB of Jefferson's works, which
although isn't complete, does include a scanned version of
"The Writings Of Thomas Jefferson", Definitive Edition,
Albert Ellery Bergh, Editor, Copyright, 1905,
The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association
which I am willing to wager is
one hell of a lot better archive than you possess.
Also of note is a google search using the string:
{jefferson "the study of man's relation to God is the highest
reason"}
<http://tinyurl.com/3yw6be>
which returned null.
I await you attribution for this quotation expectantly...
Your response to a paraphrase of a Jeffersonian statement is absurd. So you
googled a paraphrase. My aren't you a profound researcher.
The fact is that Jefferson referred to God, both as God and the Creator,
over and over again, throughout his life in his writings and speeches. He
established religion as one of the principle disciplines at the University
of Virginia, which he considered one of his three proudest achievements.
What sick need, makes you want to deny Jefferson's Faith. What troubled
personality, who would need to deny the validity of any man or woman's
Faith? Your vulgar comments bespeak a great deal, about you Sue, if that is
really your name.
.
|
|
|
| User: "buckeye" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson approves of religious curriculum |
11 Jan 2008 05:22:58 AM |
|
|
"William Flax" <krtq73aa@prodigy.net> wrote:
:|>
:|Your response to a paraphrase of a Jeffersonian statement is absurd. So you
:|googled a paraphrase. My aren't you a profound researcher.
:|
That is exactly what a good researcher would do.
A poster who is famous or infamous, it you will, for dishonesty and
ignorance made a claim about Jefferson
:|Actually, Jefferson said that the study of man's relation to
:|God is the highest reason for education...a further
:|statement than I made.
:|
:|Ken Clifton
:|christiansuperhero.com
At least three people challenged him on that
Bob LeChevalier
SueDoeCyAnts
and myself
In challenging Clifton it was shown once again he was incorrect.
When a person tries to pass off junk history or incorrectly revise history
people who know better have a obligation to expose that person with
accurate data.
:|The fact is that Jefferson referred to God, both as God and the Creator,
:|over and over again, throughout his life in his writings and speeches.
The above is misleading. There is some truth to it but it is also
inaccurate in many respects
:|He
:|established religion as one of the principle disciplines at the University
:|of Virginia, which he considered one of his three proudest achievements.
The above is false
:|
:|What sick need, makes you want to deny Jefferson's Faith.
The issue was a false claim by KC
It did not have a thing to do with Jefferson's faith or lack thereof
BTW Jefferson was not a orthodox Christian as that term was understood at
that time
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson approves of religious curriculum |
08 Jan 2008 03:10:34 PM |
|
|
"William Flax" <krtq73aa@prodigy.net> wrote:
Your response to a paraphrase of a Jeffersonian statement is absurd.
It is a misleading paraphrase.
The fact is that Jefferson referred to God, both as God and the Creator,
over and over again, throughout his life in his writings and speeches.
But did he refer to YOUR God, or to some other God, such as the
Deistic Nature God.
He established religion as one of the principle disciplines at the University
of Virginia,
Actually, he didn't.
It was proposed at a meeting, at which he took the minutes that they
allow religious teachers space at the University, to operate separate
religious schools colocated with the University, using their own
funding. This proposal was not in fact implemented, because once
Charlottesville became a town of its own, there was plenty of space
for such schools without needing to allow them space on the campus.
which he considered one of his three proudest achievements.
The University, yes. Religious education on campus, no.
What sick need, makes you want to deny Jefferson's Faith.
Faith in WHAT?
He rejected all accounts of miracles in the Bible. He rejected the
concept that Jesus was in any way supernatural, as opposed to being a
superb moral teacher. He considered St Paul and Calvin to be
perverters of Christs teachings and called Calvinists "demon
worshippers".
lojbab
.
|
|
|
| User: "SueDoeCyAnts" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson approves of religious curriculum |
08 Jan 2008 06:41:42 PM |
|
|
on Tue 08 Jan 2008 01:10:34p
Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> posted
in news:v5p7o3hcke4ff821m8p4gt9eav4jo4blf4@4ax.com:
"William Flax" <krtq73aa@prodigy.net> wrote:
Your response to a paraphrase of a Jeffersonian statement is
absurd.
It is a misleading paraphrase.
The fact is that Jefferson referred to God, both as God and the
Creator, over and over again, throughout his life in his
writings and speeches.
But did he refer to YOUR God, or to some other God, such as the
Deistic Nature God.
He established religion as one of the principle disciplines at
the University of Virginia,
Actually, he didn't.
It was proposed at a meeting, at which he took the minutes that
they allow religious teachers space at the University, to
operate separate religious schools colocated with the
University, using their own funding. This proposal was not in
fact implemented, because once Charlottesville became a town of
its own, there was plenty of space for such schools without
needing to allow them space on the campus.
which he considered one of his three proudest achievements.
The University, yes. Religious education on campus, no.
What sick need, makes you want to deny Jefferson's Faith.
Faith in WHAT?
He rejected all accounts of miracles in the Bible. He rejected
the concept that Jesus was in any way supernatural, as opposed
to being a superb moral teacher. He considered St Paul and
Calvin to be perverters of Christs teachings and called
Calvinists "demon worshippers".
lojbab
---------------------------------
"The metaphysical insanities of Athanasius, of Loyola, and
of Calvin, are, to my understanding, mere relapses into
polytheism, differing from paganism only by being more
unintelligible."
Thomas Jefferson,
letter To The Reverend Jared Sparks
November 4, 1820;
"The Writings Of Thomas Jefferson", Definitive Edition,
Albert Ellery Bergh, Editor, Copyright, 1905,
The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association
Volume XV, p 288
------------------------------------
The wishes expressed in your last favor, that I may
continue in life and health until I become a Calvinist, at
least in his exclamation of "Mon Dieu! jusqu'a quand!"
would make me immortal. I can never join Calvin in
addressing his God. He was indeed an atheist, which I can
never be; or rather his religion was daemonism. If ever
man worshiped a false God, he did. The Being described in
his five points, is not the God whom you and I acknowledge
and adore, the Creator and benevolent Governor of the
world; but a daemon of malignant spirit. It would be more
pardonable to believe in no God at all, than to blaspheme
Him by the atrocious attributes of Calvin. Indeed, I think
that every Christian sect gives a great handle to atheism
by their general dogma, that, without a revelation, there
would not be sufficient proof of the being of a God. Now
one-sixth of mankind only are supposed to be Christians;
the other five-sixths then, who do not believe in the
Jewish and Christian revelation, are without a knowledge
of the existence of a God! This gives completely a gain de
cause to the disciples of Ocellus, Timaeus, Spinosa,
Diderot and D'Holbach.
Jefferson's letter to John Adams,
from Monticello, April 11, 1823.
"The Writings Of Thomas Jefferson", Definitive Edition,
Albert Ellery Bergh, Editor, Copyright, 1905,
The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association
Volume XV; pp 425 - 430
----------------------------------------------
This complete online version of the letter has the Greek,
which my hand scanner wasn't able to handle.
<http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/jefferson_adams.html>
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Bert Hyman" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson approves of religious curriculum |
08 Jan 2008 09:03:54 AM |
|
|
(William Flax) wrote in
news:z7Mgj.86862$YL5.41583@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net:
Your response to a paraphrase of a Jeffersonian statement is absurd.
So you googled a paraphrase.
That's easy to fix then; give the exact quote and the source.
Simple.
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |
.
|
|
|
| User: "William Flax" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson approves of religious curriculum |
08 Jan 2008 10:17:22 AM |
|
|
"Bert Hyman" <> wrote in message
news:Xns9A1F5C398A64FVeebleFetzer@127.0.0.1...
krtq73aa@prodigy.net (William Flax) wrote in
news:z7Mgj.86862$YL5.41583@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net:
Your response to a paraphrase of a Jeffersonian statement is absurd.
So you googled a paraphrase.
That's easy to fix then; give the exact quote and the source.
Simple.
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |
You want the exact quote from someone else's paraphrase? Why? The point is
that Jefferson, over and over again, acknowledged God; acknowledged the
Creator; called upon his help at the conclusion of his Inaugural Addresses;
his State of the Union addresses; referred to God in much of his
correspondence, etc..
What is your point, here? I do not claim to have a photo memory of
everything Jefferson wrote, nor of the many hundreds of pages of his
writings that I have read. But that makes no point at all. What is weird
is that anyone would feel a need to deny Jefferson's Faith. Why?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bert Hyman" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson approves of religious curriculum |
08 Jan 2008 10:26:49 AM |
|
|
(William Flax) wrote in
news:mmNgj.3250$jJ5.1006@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net:
"Bert Hyman" < > wrote in message
news:Xns9A1F5C398A64FVeebleFetzer@127.0.0.1...
(William Flax) wrote in
news:z7Mgj.86862$YL5.41583@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net:
Your response to a paraphrase of a Jeffersonian statement is
absurd.
So you googled a paraphrase.
That's easy to fix then; give the exact quote and the source.
Simple.
You want the exact quote from someone else's paraphrase? Why?
Because you're complaining that people are misinterpreting your use of
this paraphrase.
Simply supplying Jefferson's actual words on the subject would
eliminate all the confusion.
Why's that so hard?
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |
.
|
|
|
| User: "William Flax" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson approves of religious curriculum |
08 Jan 2008 10:43:58 AM |
|
|
"Bert Hyman" <> wrote in message
news:Xns9A1F6A476910EVeebleFetzer@127.0.0.1...
krtq73aa@prodigy.net (William Flax) wrote in
news:mmNgj.3250$jJ5.1006@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net:
"Bert Hyman" < > wrote in message
news:Xns9A1F5C398A64FVeebleFetzer@127.0.0.1...
krtq73aa@prodigy.net (William Flax) wrote in
news:z7Mgj.86862$YL5.41583@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net:
Your response to a paraphrase of a Jeffersonian statement is
absurd.
So you googled a paraphrase.
That's easy to fix then; give the exact quote and the source.
Simple.
You want the exact quote from someone else's paraphrase? Why?
Because you're complaining that people are misinterpreting your use of
this paraphrase.
Simply supplying Jefferson's actual words on the subject would
eliminate all the confusion.
Why's that so hard?
You are one confused poster. I never used the paraphrase. I chided the
earlier poster for googling it!
Surely, if you take a deep breath, you will understand the difference.
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |
.
|
|
|
| User: "SueDoeCyAnts" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson approves of religious curriculum |
10 Jan 2008 07:17:14 PM |
|
|
on Tue 08 Jan 2008 08:43:58a
"William Flax" <krtq73aa@prodigy.net> posted
in news:iLNgj.3253$jJ5.171@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net:
You are one confused poster. I never used the paraphrase. I
chided the earlier poster for googling it!
Surely, if you take a deep breath, you will understand the
difference.
Still refuse to admit your attempt to slander me?
As I menmtioned originally, I googled the prhase only after I'd
checked for it within my own DB of Jefferson's works,
which btw, I have put a great deal of personal effort into acquiring,
and entering into the DB over the years. A labour which included the
initial personal project of hand-scanning a personal 20 Volume set of
"The Writings Of Thomas Jefferson", Definitive Edition,
Albert Ellery Bergh, Editor
at a time when OCR software available for PC
was still in a primitive state (late 80's).
Yet you trivialised what I said,
with a defammatory statement, implying
that all I'd done was a quick Google search,
and you continue to do so here in the thread.
Care to blow me now, cocksucking *****?
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson approves of religious curriculum |
08 Jan 2008 10:38:23 AM |
|
|
On 08 Jan 2008 16:26:49 GMT, Bert Hyman <bert@iphouse.com> wrote:
krtq73aa@prodigy.net (William Flax) wrote in
news:mmNgj.3250$jJ5.1006@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net:
"Bert Hyman" <bert@iphouse.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A1F5C398A64FVeebleFetzer@127.0.0.1...
krtq73aa@prodigy.net (William Flax) wrote in
news:z7Mgj.86862$YL5.41583@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net:
Your response to a paraphrase of a Jeffersonian statement is
absurd.
So you googled a paraphrase.
That's easy to fix then; give the exact quote and the source.
Simple.
You want the exact quote from someone else's paraphrase? Why?
Because you're complaining that people are misinterpreting your use of
this paraphrase.
Simply supplying Jefferson's actual words on the subject would
eliminate all the confusion.
Why's that so hard?
He'd have to admit he's talking through his rear end.
He is one of those sociopathic theists who imagines that whenever
anybody says "God" it means what he thinks rather that what the writer
meant.
He pretends that Jefferson's God/Creator weren't the deistic kind. He
pretends that Jefferson didn't strip all the supernatural from the NT
because he felt Jesus was merely a moral teacher.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson approves of religious curriculum |
08 Jan 2008 10:19:58 AM |
|
|
On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 16:17:22 GMT, "William Flax"
<krtq73aa@prodigy.net> wrote:
"Bert Hyman" < > wrote in message
news:Xns9A1F5C398A64FVeebleFetzer@127.0.0.1...
krtq73aa@prodigy.net (William Flax) wrote in
news:z7Mgj.86862$YL5.41583@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net:
Your response to a paraphrase of a Jeffersonian statement is absurd.
So you googled a paraphrase.
That's easy to fix then; give the exact quote and the source.
Simple.
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |
You want the exact quote from someone else's paraphrase? Why? The point is
that Jefferson, over and over again, acknowledged God; acknowledged the
Creator; called upon his help at the conclusion of his Inaugural Addresses;
his State of the Union addresses; referred to God in much of his
correspondence, etc..
BUT NOT WHAT BRAINWASHED MORONS LIKE YOU MEAN BY "GOD".
Which word were you pretending you didn't understand?
Look up "Deist".
Look up "Jefferson Bible".
What is your point, here? I do not claim to have a photo memory of
everything Jefferson wrote, nor of the many hundreds of pages of his
writings that I have read. But that makes no point at all. What is weird
is that anyone would feel a need to deny Jefferson's Faith. Why?
What is it with you morons?
Why do YOU need to invent a faith he didn't have?
Is it because you are a Christian?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Michelle Malkin" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson approves of religious curriculum |
08 Jan 2008 05:43:58 PM |
|
|
"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:8h87o3994emnnprhs1mq8il979ele9f6eu@4ax.com...
On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 16:17:22 GMT, "William Flax"
<krtq73aa@prodigy.net> wrote:
"Bert Hyman" < > wrote in message
news:Xns9A1F5C398A64FVeebleFetzer@127.0.0.1...
krtq73aa@prodigy.net (William Flax) wrote in
news:z7Mgj.86862$YL5.41583@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net:
Your response to a paraphrase of a Jeffersonian statement is absurd.
So you googled a paraphrase.
That's easy to fix then; give the exact quote and the source.
Simple.
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |
You want the exact quote from someone else's paraphrase? Why? The point
is
that Jefferson, over and over again, acknowledged God; acknowledged the
Creator; called upon his help at the conclusion of his Inaugural
Addresses;
his State of the Union addresses; referred to God in much of his
correspondence, etc..
BUT NOT WHAT BRAINWASHED MORONS LIKE YOU MEAN BY "GOD".
Which word were you pretending you didn't understand?
Look up "Deist".
Look up "Jefferson Bible".
Reading the Jefferson Bible is enough to make
any Fundy's teeth fall out. All the mystical and
miraculous mumbo jumbo is removed. Jefferson
knew exactly what he was doing.
What is your point, here? I do not claim to have a photo memory of
everything Jefferson wrote, nor of the many hundreds of pages of his
writings that I have read. But that makes no point at all. What is weird
is that anyone would feel a need to deny Jefferson's Faith. Why?
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/JefJesu.html
What is it with you morons?
Why do YOU need to invent a faith he didn't have?
None of the really important Founding Fathers
were fundamentalist Christians. Washington,
Adams, Jefferson, Franklin and Madison were
all Deists. (Thomas Paine was a Deist, too.)
Deists believe in a creative god but not in the
divinity of Jesus. Some of them believed in
life after death, some in heaven and less in
hell. And, Deists back then believed that their
Creator was more involved with this world
than they do nowadays. The lack of belief in
JC's divinity drives the Fundies crazy, so they
create phony quotes and write nasty biographies.
Is it because you are a Christian?
It's because he's a fundamentalist Christian
and, therefore, braindead. I doubt he's read
as much as he would have us believe and is
afraid to check any information that we provide.
But, maybe others will read it. That is always my
main reason for providing information - for those
who will check it out due to curiosity, not for the
ones who ask for information though you know
they will ignore it.
.
|
|
|
| User: "SueDoeCyAnts" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson approves of religious curriculum |
08 Jan 2008 07:15:12 PM |
|
|
on Tue 08 Jan 2008 03:43:58p
"Michelle Malkin" <hypatiab7@comcast.net> posted
in news:ffWdnedj8O8rlxnanZ2dnUVZ_t6onZ2d@comcast.com:
"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:8h87o3994emnnprhs1mq8il979ele9f6eu@4ax.com...
On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 16:17:22 GMT, "William Flax"
<krtq73aa@prodigy.net> wrote:
"Bert Hyman" < > wrote in message
news:Xns9A1F5C398A64FVeebleFetzer@127.0.0.1...
krtq73aa@prodigy.net (William Flax) wrote in
news:z7Mgj.86862$YL5.41583@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net:
Your response to a paraphrase of a Jeffersonian statement
is absurd.
So you googled a paraphrase.
That's easy to fix then; give the exact quote and the source.
Simple.
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |
You want the exact quote from someone else's paraphrase? Why?
The point is
that Jefferson, over and over again, acknowledged God;
acknowledged the Creator; called upon his help at the
conclusion of his Inaugural Addresses;
his State of the Union addresses; referred to God in much of
his correspondence, etc..
BUT NOT WHAT BRAINWASHED MORONS LIKE YOU MEAN BY "GOD".
Which word were you pretending you didn't understand?
Look up "Deist".
Look up "Jefferson Bible".
Reading the Jefferson Bible is enough to make
any Fundy's teeth fall out. All the mystical and
miraculous mumbo jumbo is removed. Jefferson
knew exactly what he was doing.
What is your point, here? I do not claim to have a photo
memory of everything Jefferson wrote, nor of the many hundreds
of pages of his writings that I have read. But that makes no
point at all. What is weird is that anyone would feel a need
to deny Jefferson's Faith. Why?
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/JefJesu.html
What is it with you morons?
Why do YOU need to invent a faith he didn't have?
None of the really important Founding Fathers
were fundamentalist Christians. Washington,
Adams, Jefferson, Franklin and Madison were
all Deists. (Thomas Paine was a Deist, too.)
Deists believe in a creative god but not in the
divinity of Jesus. Some of them believed in
life after death, some in heaven and less in
hell. And, Deists back then believed that their
Creator was more involved with this world
than they do nowadays. The lack of belief in
JC's divinity drives the Fundies crazy, so they
create phony quotes and write nasty biographies.
Is it because you are a Christian?
It's because he's a fundamentalist Christian
and, therefore, braindead. I doubt he's read
as much as he would have us believe and is
afraid to check any information that we provide.
But, maybe others will read it. That is always my
main reason for providing information - for those
who will check it out due to curiosity, not for the
ones who ask for information though you know
they will ignore it.
I would suggest that you move beyond
your perception of Fundamentalism,
and understand there is
an even greater religious threat to liberty:
Michael J. McVicar,
"The Libertarian Theocrats: The Long, Strange History
of R.J. Rushdoony and Christian Reconstructionism",
The Public Eye, Fall 2007, Vol. 22, No. 3
<http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v22n3/libertarian.html>
Fundies are just hanging out until the rapture,
and then they are out of here,
but the Reconstructionists
are making plans for a 1000 year Christian Reich.
A Hell On Earth.
"Now those who seek absolute power,
even though they seek it to do what they regard as good,
are simply demanding the right to enforce
their own version of heaven on earth,
and let me remind you they are the very ones
who always create the most hellish tyranny."
Barry Goldwater
Senator Goldwater's Acceptance Speech
at the Republican National Convention, 1964
.
|
|
|
| User: "Michelle Malkin" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson approves of religious curriculum |
08 Jan 2008 09:55:39 PM |
|
|
"SueDoeCyAnts" <pseudocy@labb.port5.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A1FAF8497FE8OriginaliseThisThief@198.186.190.165...
on Tue 08 Jan 2008 03:43:58p
"Michelle Malkin" <hypatiab7@comcast.net> posted
in news:ffWdnedj8O8rlxnanZ2dnUVZ_t6onZ2d@comcast.com:
"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:8h87o3994emnnprhs1mq8il979ele9f6eu@4ax.com...
On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 16:17:22 GMT, "William Flax"
<krtq73aa@prodigy.net> wrote:
"Bert Hyman" < > wrote in message
news:Xns9A1F5C398A64FVeebleFetzer@127.0.0.1...
krtq73aa@prodigy.net (William Flax) wrote in
news:z7Mgj.86862$YL5.41583@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net:
Your response to a paraphrase of a Jeffersonian statement
is absurd.
So you googled a paraphrase.
That's easy to fix then; give the exact quote and the source.
Simple.
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |
You want the exact quote from someone else's paraphrase? Why?
The point is
that Jefferson, over and over again, acknowledged God;
acknowledged the Creator; called upon his help at the
conclusion of his Inaugural Addresses;
his State of the Union addresses; referred to God in much of
his correspondence, etc..
BUT NOT WHAT BRAINWASHED MORONS LIKE YOU MEAN BY "GOD".
Which word were you pretending you didn't understand?
Look up "Deist".
Look up "Jefferson Bible".
Reading the Jefferson Bible is enough to make
any Fundy's teeth fall out. All the mystical and
miraculous mumbo jumbo is removed. Jefferson
knew exactly what he was doing.
What is your point, here? I do not claim to have a photo
memory of everything Jefferson wrote, nor of the many hundreds
of pages of his writings that I have read. But that makes no
point at all. What is weird is that anyone would feel a need
to deny Jefferson's Faith. Why?
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/JefJesu.html
What is it with you morons?
Why do YOU need to invent a faith he didn't have?
None of the really important Founding Fathers
were fundamentalist Christians. Washington,
Adams, Jefferson, Franklin and Madison were
all Deists. (Thomas Paine was a Deist, too.)
Deists believe in a creative god but not in the
divinity of Jesus. Some of them believed in
life after death, some in heaven and less in
hell. And, Deists back then believed that their
Creator was more involved with this world
than they do nowadays. The lack of belief in
JC's divinity drives the Fundies crazy, so they
create phony quotes and write nasty biographies.
Is it because you are a Christian?
It's because he's a fundamentalist Christian
and, therefore, braindead. I doubt he's read
as much as he would have us believe and is
afraid to check any information that we provide.
But, maybe others will read it. That is always my
main reason for providing information - for those
who will check it out due to curiosity, not for the
ones who ask for information though you know
they will ignore it.
I would suggest that you move beyond
your perception of Fundamentalism,
and understand there is
an even greater religious threat to liberty:
Michael J. McVicar,
"The Libertarian Theocrats: The Long, Strange History
of R.J. Rushdoony and Christian Reconstructionism",
The Public Eye, Fall 2007, Vol. 22, No. 3
<http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v22n3/libertarian.html>
Fundies are just hanging out until the rapture,
and then they are out of here,
but the Reconstructionists
are making plans for a 1000 year Christian Reich.
A Hell On Earth.
I've been warning people about the Dominionists
for over a year.This is nothing new.
"Now those who seek absolute power,
even though they seek it to do what they regard as good,
are simply demanding the right to enforce
their own version of heaven on earth,
and let me remind you they are the very ones
who always create the most hellish tyranny."
Barry Goldwater
Senator Goldwater's Acceptance Speech
at the Republican National Convention, 1964
I was never a fan of Goldwater, either. I wonder
how many John Birchers are now Dominionists.
Oh, it's the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Fighting for the right to fight the right fight for the Right.
--
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Michelle Malkin (Mickey) aa list#1
BAAWA Knight & Bible Thumper Thumper
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
When fascism comes to America, it will be
wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross -
Sinclair Lewis
.
|
|
|
| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson approves of religious curriculum |
10 Jan 2008 02:12:59 AM |
|
|
In article <_9ednU9Efuku2BnanZ2dnUVZ_sqinZ2d@comcast.com>,
"Michelle Malkin" <hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote:
"SueDoeCyAnts" <pseudocy@labb.port5.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A1FAF8497FE8OriginaliseThisThief@198.186.190.165...
on Tue 08 Jan 2008 03:43:58p
"Michelle Malkin" <hypatiab7@comcast.net> posted
in news:ffWdnedj8O8rlxnanZ2dnUVZ_t6onZ2d@comcast.com:
"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:8h87o3994emnnprhs1mq8il979ele9f6eu@4ax.com...
On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 16:17:22 GMT, "William Flax"
<krtq73aa@prodigy.net> wrote:
"Bert Hyman" < > wrote in message
news:Xns9A1F5C398A64FVeebleFetzer@127.0.0.1...
krtq73aa@prodigy.net (William Flax) wrote in
news:z7Mgj.86862$YL5.41583@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net:
Your response to a paraphrase of a Jeffersonian statement
is absurd.
So you googled a paraphrase.
That's easy to fix then; give the exact quote and the source.
Simple.
--
Bert Hyman | St. Paul, MN |
You want the exact quote from someone else's paraphrase? Why?
The point is
that Jefferson, over and over again, acknowledged God;
acknowledged the Creator; called upon his help at the
conclusion of his Inaugural Addresses;
his State of the Union addresses; referred to God in much of
his correspondence, etc..
BUT NOT WHAT BRAINWASHED MORONS LIKE YOU MEAN BY "GOD".
Which word were you pretending you didn't understand?
Look up "Deist".
Look up "Jefferson Bible".
Reading the Jefferson Bible is enough to make
any Fundy's teeth fall out. All the mystical and
miraculous mumbo jumbo is removed. Jefferson
knew exactly what he was doing.
What is your point, here? I do not claim to have a photo
memory of everything Jefferson wrote, nor of the many hundreds
of pages of his writings that I have read. But that makes no
point at all. What is weird is that anyone would feel a need
to deny Jefferson's Faith. Why?
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/JefJesu.html
What is it with you morons?
Why do YOU need to invent a faith he didn't have?
None of the really important Founding Fathers
were fundamentalist Christians. Washington,
Adams, Jefferson, Franklin and Madison were
all Deists. (Thomas Paine was a Deist, too.)
Deists believe in a creative god but not in the
divinity of Jesus. Some of them believed in
life after death, some in heaven and less in
hell. And, Deists back then believed that their
Creator was more involved with this world
than they do nowadays. The lack of belief in
JC's divinity drives the Fundies crazy, so they
create phony quotes and write nasty biographies.
Is it because you are a Christian?
It's because he's a fundamentalist Christian
and, therefore, braindead. I doubt he's read
as much as he would have us believe and is
afraid to check any information that we provide.
But, maybe others will read it. That is always my
main reason for providing information - for those
who will check it out due to curiosity, not for the
ones who ask for information though you know
they will ignore it.
I would suggest that you move beyond
your perception of Fundamentalism,
and understand there is
an even greater religious threat to liberty:
Michael J. McVicar,
"The Libertarian Theocrats: The Long, Strange History
of R.J. Rushdoony and Christian Reconstructionism",
The Public Eye, Fall 2007, Vol. 22, No. 3
<http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v22n3/libertarian.html>
Fundies are just hanging out until the rapture,
and then they are out of here,
but the Reconstructionists
are making plans for a 1000 year Christian Reich.
A Hell On Earth.
I've been warning people about the Dominionists
for over a year.This is nothing new.
"Now those who seek absolute power,
even though they seek it to do what they regard as good,
are simply demanding the right to enforce
their own version of heaven on earth,
and let me remind you they are the very ones
who always create the most hellish tyranny."
Barry Goldwater
Senator Goldwater's Acceptance Speech
at the Republican National Convention, 1964
I was never a fan of Goldwater, either. I wonder
how many John Birchers are now Dominionists.
Oh, it's the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Fighting for the right to fight the right fight for the Right.
Remember this?
http://tinyurl.com/359d5x
--
John #1782
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "SueDoeCyAnts" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson approves of religious curriculum |
09 Jan 2008 04:09:23 AM |
|
|
on Tue 08 Jan 2008 07:55:39p
"Michelle Malkin" <hypatiab7@comcast.net> posted
in news:_9ednU9Efuku2BnanZ2dnUVZ_sqinZ2d@comcast.com:
I was never a fan of Goldwater, either. I wonder
how many John Birchers are now Dominionists.
Oh, it's the John Birch Society, the John Birch Society
Fighting for the right to fight the right fight for the Right.
I'm curious then, which of the following
Barry Goldwater quotations are you in disagreement with?
* "You don't have to be straight to be in the military;
you just have to be able to shoot straight."
* "I don't like being called the New Right;
I'm an old, old *****.
I'm a conservative."
* "Nixon was the most dishonest individual
I have ever met in my life.
He lied to his wife, his family, his friends,
his colleagues in the Congress,
lifetime members of his own political party,
the American people and the world."
* "I believe Reagan did know of
the diversion of Iranian funds to the Contras.
He had to know.
The White House explanation makes him out
to be either a liar or incompetent."
* "When you say 'radical right' today,
I think of these moneymaking ventures
by fellows like Pat Robertson and others
who are trying to take the Republican Party
away from the Republican Party,
and make a religious organization out of it.
If that ever happens, kiss politics goodbye."
--------------------------
Goldwater was also a long-time and ardent defender of a woman's
right to control her own procreation, and believed that it was a
belief that flowed from simple old-school conservatism.
Goldwater is often called a racist for his opposition to the Civil
Rights Act of 1964, and his anti-union stances were legendary. Yet
under his management, his family's Arizona Department Store was
the first in the state to hire blacks to retail sales and
management positions, as well as being recognized as having one of
the best benefit and health packages of any employer in the state.
What exactly did you find distasteful about Senator Goldwater?
-----
BTW, Dominionist is a term that Christian Reconstructionists
seldom if ever use as a self-reference to themselves.
It is almost always used as a derogation.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson approves of religious curriculum |
08 Jan 2008 09:09:01 AM |
|
|
On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 14:53:19 GMT, "William Flax"
<krtq73aa@prodigy.net> wrote:
I do not show it in my personal DB of Jefferson's works, which
although isn't complete, does include a scanned version of
"The Writings Of Thomas Jefferson", Definitive Edition,
Albert Ellery Bergh, Editor, Copyright, 1905,
The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association
which I am willing to wager is
one hell of a lot better archive than you possess.
Also of note is a google search using the string:
{jefferson "the study of man's relation to God is the highest
reason"}
<http://tinyurl.com/3yw6be>
which returned null.
I await you attribution for this quotation expectantly...
Your response to a paraphrase of a Jeffersonian statement is absurd. So you
googled a paraphrase. My aren't you a profound researcher.
The fact is that Jefferson referred to God, both as God and the Creator,
over and over again, throughout his life in his writings and speeches. He
established religion as one of the principle disciplines at the University
of Virginia, which he considered one of his three proudest achievements.
But not your kind of God. He was a deist who stripped everything
supernatural out of the NT.
Pretending otherwise won't make this unhappen.
What sick need, makes you want to deny Jefferson's Faith. What troubled
personality, who would need to deny the validity of any man or woman's
Faith? Your vulgar comments bespeak a great deal, about you Sue, if that is
really your name.
What sick need, makes you want to lie and pretend that he was your
kind of brainwashed extremist Christian?
What troubled personality like yours feels the need to lie both about
and the poster?
Your sheer dishonesty speaks a great deal about you, William, if that
is indeed your name.
But hey, you're a Christian.
.
|
|
|
| User: "William Flax" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson approves of religious curriculum |
08 Jan 2008 10:25:21 AM |
|
|
See below:
"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:a747o3trate3jcdjf1qsh8gtcc1vss8li9@4ax.com...
On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 14:53:19 GMT, "William Flax"
<krtq73aa@prodigy.net> wrote:
I do not show it in my personal DB of Jefferson's works, which
although isn't complete, does include a scanned version of
"The Writings Of Thomas Jefferson", Definitive Edition,
Albert Ellery Bergh, Editor, Copyright, 1905,
The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association
which I am willing to wager is
one hell of a lot better archive than you possess.
Also of note is a google search using the string:
{jefferson "the study of man's relation to God is the highest
reason"}
<http://tinyurl.com/3yw6be>
which returned null.
I await you attribution for this quotation expectantly...
Your response to a paraphrase of a Jeffersonian statement is absurd. So
you
googled a paraphrase. My aren't you a profound researcher.
The fact is that Jefferson referred to God, both as God and the Creator,
over and over again, throughout his life in his writings and speeches.
He
established religion as one of the principle disciplines at the
University
of Virginia, which he considered one of his three proudest achievements.
But not your kind of God. He was a deist who stripped everything
supernatural out of the NT.
You show that you have little actual familiarity with Jefferson's thoughts
or his writings. You refer, I suppose to the Jefferson Bible, which did not
strip out everything supernatural. It simply contained the words of Jesus,
as opposed to the words of others. Jefferson did not trust most clerics;
did not think in terms of denominational dogma. But nothing about that
equates to some form of disbelief or denial of God.
Pretending otherwise won't make this unhappen.
What sick need, makes you want to deny Jefferson's Faith. What troubled
personality, who would need to deny the validity of any man or woman's
Faith? Your vulgar comments bespeak a great deal, about you Sue, if that
is
really your name.
What sick need, makes you want to lie and pretend that he was your
kind of brainwashed extremist Christian?
What troubled personality like yours feels the need to lie both about
and the poster?
Your sheer dishonesty speaks a great deal about you, William, if that
is indeed your name.
But hey, you're a Christian.
Do you hear voices in your sleep, or only when you sit at a keyboard. You
will search my writings in vain for any denominational dogma. The reason I
stopped by to even comment on this thread is that I have rather similar
views to those of Jefferson, so far as relying on other peoples verbalized
theology. I am not hostile to it; I just do my own theological thinking.
But that has nothing whatever to do with the subject here. Your ad hominem
attack on me is only a projection of your own dogmatic preoccupation. It
contributes nothing, whatever, to a discussion of the beliefs of any third
person, living or dead.
.
|
|
|
| User: "buckeye" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson approves of religious curriculum |
11 Jan 2008 05:23:17 AM |
|
|
"William Flax" <krtq73aa@prodigy.net> wrote:
:|You show that you have little actual familiarity with Jefferson's thoughts
:|or his writings. You refer, I suppose to the Jefferson Bible, which did not
:|strip out everything supernatural.
Yes it did
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson approves of religious curriculum |
08 Jan 2008 10:35:21 AM |
|
|
On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 16:25:21 GMT, "William Flax"
<krtq73aa@prodigy.net> wrote:
See below:
Learn to reply properly.
"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:a747o3trate3jcdjf1qsh8gtcc1vss8li9@4ax.com...
On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 14:53:19 GMT, "William Flax"
<krtq73aa@prodigy.net> wrote:
I do not show it in my personal DB of Jefferson's works, which
although isn't complete, does include a scanned version of
"The Writings Of Thomas Jefferson", Definitive Edition,
Albert Ellery Bergh, Editor, Copyright, 1905,
The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association
which I am willing to wager is
one hell of a lot better archive than you possess.
Also of note is a google search using the string:
{jefferson "the study of man's relation to God is the highest
reason"}
<http://tinyurl.com/3yw6be>
which returned null.
I await you attribution for this quotation expectantly...
Your response to a paraphrase of a Jeffersonian statement is absurd. So
you
googled a paraphrase. My aren't you a profound researcher.
The fact is that Jefferson referred to God, both as God and the Creator,
over and over again, throughout his life in his writings and speeches.
He
established religion as one of the principle disciplines at the
University
of Virginia, which he considered one of his three proudest achievements.
But not your kind of God. He was a deist who stripped everything
supernatural out of the NT.
You show that you have little actual familiarity with Jefferson's thoughts
or his writings. You refer, I suppose to the Jefferson Bible, which did not
strip out everything supernatural. It simply contained the words of Jesus,
as opposed to the words of others. Jefferson did not trust most clerics;
did not think in terms of denominational dogma. But nothing about that
equates to some form of disbelief or denial of God.
Pretending otherwise won't make this unhappen.
What sick need, makes you want to deny Jefferson's Faith. What troubled
personality, who would need to deny the validity of any man or woman's
Faith? Your vulgar comments bespeak a great deal, about you Sue, if that
is
really your name.
What sick need, makes you want to lie and pretend that he was your
kind of brainwashed extremist Christian?
Well, moron?
What troubled personality like yours feels the need to lie both about
and the poster?
Well, moron?
Your sheer dishonesty speaks a great deal about you, William, if that
is indeed your name.
But hey, you're a Christian.
Do you hear voices in your sleep, or only when you sit at a keyboard. You
will search my writings in vain for any denominational dogma. The reason I
stopped by to even comment on this thread is that I have rather similar
views to those of Jefferson, so far as relying on other peoples verbalized
theology. I am not hostile to it; I just do my own theological thinking.
But that has nothing whatever to do with the subject here. Your ad hominem
attack on me is only a projection of your own dogmatic preoccupation. It
contributes nothing, whatever, to a discussion of the beliefs of any third
person, living or dead.
Why do you resort to personal lies rather that admit you have no idea
what you are talking about?
.
|
|
|
| User: "William Flax" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson approves of religious curriculum |
08 Jan 2008 10:47:09 AM |
|
|
Just go back an read the posts. I am not the one who has resorted to
"personal lies."
"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:jf97o35nfngm28l0pudpgjjgqdgit4rhpp@4ax.com...
On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 16:25:21 GMT, "William Flax"
<krtq73aa@prodigy.net> wrote:
See below:
Learn to reply properly.
"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:a747o3trate3jcdjf1qsh8gtcc1vss8li9@4ax.com...
On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 14:53:19 GMT, "William Flax"
<krtq73aa@prodigy.net> wrote:
I do not show it in my personal DB of Jefferson's works, which
although isn't complete, does include a scanned version of
"The Writings Of Thomas Jefferson", Definitive Edition,
Albert Ellery Bergh, Editor, Copyright, 1905,
The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association
which I am willing to wager is
one hell of a lot better archive than you possess.
Also of note is a google search using the string:
{jefferson "the study of man's relation to God is the highest
reason"}
<http://tinyurl.com/3yw6be>
which returned null.
I await you attribution for this quotation expectantly...
Your response to a paraphrase of a Jeffersonian statement is absurd.
So
you
googled a paraphrase. My aren't you a profound researcher.
The fact is that Jefferson referred to God, both as God and the
Creator,
over and over again, throughout his life in his writings and speeches.
He
established religion as one of the principle disciplines at the
University
of Virginia, which he considered one of his three proudest
achievements.
But not your kind of God. He was a deist who stripped everything
supernatural out of the NT.
You show that you have little actual familiarity with Jefferson's
thoughts
or his writings. You refer, I suppose to the Jefferson Bible, which did
not
strip out everything supernatural. It simply contained the words of
Jesus,
as opposed to the words of others. Jefferson did not trust most clerics;
did not think in terms of denominational dogma. But nothing about that
equates to some form of disbelief or denial of God.
Pretending otherwise won't make this unhappen.
What sick need, makes you want to deny Jefferson's Faith. What
troubled
personality, who would need to deny the validity of any man or woman's
Faith? Your vulgar comments bespeak a great deal, about you Sue, if
that
is
really your name.
What sick need, makes you want to lie and pretend that he was your
kind of brainwashed extremist Christian?
Well, moron?
What troubled personality like yours feels the need to lie both about
and the poster?
Well, moron?
Your sheer dishonesty speaks a great deal about you, William, if that
is indeed your name.
But hey, you're a Christian.
Do you hear voices in your sleep, or only when you sit at a keyboard.
You
will search my writings in vain for any denominational dogma. The reason
I
stopped by to even comment on this thread is that I have rather similar
views to those of Jefferson, so far as relying on other peoples
verbalized
theology. I am not hostile to it; I just do my own theological thinking.
But that has nothing whatever to do with the subject here. Your ad
hominem
attack on me is only a projection of your own dogmatic preoccupation. It
contributes nothing, whatever, to a discussion of the beliefs of any
third
person, living or dead.
Why do you resort to personal lies rather that admit you have no idea
what you are talking about?
.
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson approves of religious curriculum |
08 Jan 2008 10:50:31 AM |
|
|
On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 16:47:09 GMT, "William Flax"
<krtq73aa@prodigy.net> wrote:
Just go back an read the posts. I am not the one who has resorted to
"personal lies."
Learn to post properly and address points.
Was it some other liar also called "William Flax" who wrote:
"What sick need, makes you want to deny Jefferson's Faith. What
troubled personality, who would need to deny the validity of any man
or woman's Faith?"
After you had invented a faith for somebody else you knew they didn't
have?
"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:jf97o35nfngm28l0pudpgjjgqdgit4rhpp@4ax.com...
On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 16:25:21 GMT, "William Flax"
<krtq73aa@prodigy.net> wrote:
See below:
Learn to reply properly.
"Christopher A.Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:a747o3trate3jcdjf1qsh8gtcc1vss8li9@4ax.com...
On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 14:53:19 GMT, "William Flax"
<krtq73aa@prodigy.net> wrote:
I do not show it in my personal DB of Jefferson's works, which
although isn't complete, does include a scanned version of
"The Writings Of Thomas Jefferson", Definitive Edition,
Albert Ellery Bergh, Editor, Copyright, 1905,
The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association
which I am willing to wager is
one hell of a lot better archive than you possess.
Also of note is a google search using the string:
{jefferson "the study of man's relation to God is the highest
reason"}
<http://tinyurl.com/3yw6be>
which returned null.
I await you attribution for this quotation expectantly...
Your response to a paraphrase of a Jeffersonian statement is absurd.
So
you
googled a paraphrase. My aren't you a profound researcher.
The fact is that Jefferson referred to God, both as God and the
Creator,
over and over again, throughout his life in his writings and speeches.
He
established religion as one of the principle disciplines at the
University
of Virginia, which he considered one of his three proudest
achievements.
But not your kind of God. He was a deist who stripped everything
supernatural out of the NT.
You show that you have little actual familiarity with Jefferson's
thoughts
or his writings. You refer, I suppose to the Jefferson Bible, which did
not
strip out everything supernatural. It simply contained the words of
Jesus,
as opposed to the words of others. Jefferson did not trust most clerics;
did not think in terms of denominational dogma. But nothing about that
equates to some form of disbelief or denial of God.
Pretending otherwise won't make this unhappen.
What sick need, makes you want to deny Jefferson's Faith. What
troubled
personality, who would need to deny the validity of any man or woman's
Faith? Your vulgar comments bespeak a great deal, about you Sue, if
that
is
really your name.
What sick need, makes you want to lie and pretend that he was your
kind of brainwashed extremist Christian?
Well, moron?
What troubled personality like yours feels the need to lie both about
and the poster?
Well, moron?
Your sheer dishonesty speaks a great deal about you, William, if that
is indeed your name.
But hey, you're a Christian.
Do you hear voices in your sleep, or only when you sit at a keyboard.
You
will search my writings in vain for any denominational dogma. The reason
I
stopped by to even comment on this thread is that I have rather similar
views to those of Jefferson, so far as relying on other peoples
verbalized
theology. I am not hostile to it; I just do my own theological thinking.
But that has nothing whatever to do with the subject here. Your ad
hominem
attack on me is only a projection of your own dogmatic preoccupation. It
contributes nothing, whatever, to a discussion of the beliefs of any
third
person, living or dead.
Why do you resort to personal lies rather that admit you have no idea
what you are talking about?
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
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| User: "SueDoeCyAnts" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson approves of religious curriculum |
08 Jan 2008 04:49:01 PM |
|
|
on Tue 08 Jan 2008 06:53:19a
"William Flax" <krtq73aa@prodigy.net> posted
in news:z7Mgj.86862$YL5.41583@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net:
See Below:
"SueDoeCyAnts" <pseudocy@labb.port5.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A1DEFBC9FE0AOriginaliseThisThief@198.186.190.161...
on Mon 21 May 2007 09:10:02a
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> posted
in news:1179767402.419936.142720@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com:
On May 21, 6:52 am, wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
:|
:|Actually, Jefferson said that the study of man's relation
:|to God is the highest reason for education...a further
:|statement than I made.
:|
:|Ken Clifton
:|christiansuperhero.com
Your unsubstantiated claim is noted.
Proof you never read my quote from Jefferson to begin with,
since that passage is the source of my substantiated claim.
Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
Please offer an attribution for this citation,
or admit you've got your head up where the sun don't shine.
I do not show it in my personal DB of Jefferson's works, which
although isn't complete, does include a scanned version of
"The Writings Of Thomas Jefferson", Definitive Edition,
Albert Ellery Bergh, Editor, Copyright, 1905,
The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association
which I am willing to wager is
one hell of a lot better archive than you possess.
Also of note is a google search using the string:
{jefferson "the study of man's relation to God is the highest
reason"}
<http://tinyurl.com/3yw6be>
which returned null.
I await you attribution for this quotation expectantly...
Your response to a paraphrase of a Jeffersonian statement is
absurd. So you googled a paraphrase. My aren't you a profound
researcher.
Offering more proof of your cognitive inabilities?
Read what I wrote again.
Oh wait, your're a Paultard...nevdermind...
.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson approves of religious curriculum |
07 Jan 2008 07:25:22 AM |
|
|
SueDoeCyAnts <pseudocy@labb.port5.com> wrote:
on Mon 21 May 2007 09:10:02a
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> posted
in news:1179767402.419936.142720@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com:
On May 21, 6:52 am, wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
:|
:|Actually, Jefferson said that the study of man's relation to
:|God is the highest reason for education...a further
:|statement than I made.
:|
:|Ken Clifton
:|christiansuperhero.com
Your unsubstantiated claim is noted.
Proof you never read my quote from Jefferson to begin with,
since that passage is the source of my substantiated claim.
Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
Please offer an attribution for this citation,
or admit you've got your head up where the sun don't shine.
It isn't a quote. It is his out-of-context misrepresentation of a
different quote, from the 1824-1826 UVA Board of Governors report,
which he reposts every few months thinking we will let him slip it by.
It was not however to be understood that instruction in religious
opinions and duties was meant to be precluded by the public
authorities, as indifferent to the interests of Society. On the
contrary, the relations which exist between man and his maker, and the
duties resulting from those relations are the most interesting and
important to every human being, and the most incumbent on his study
and investigation.
lojbab
.
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| User: "SueDoeCyAnts" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson approves of religious curriculum |
07 Jan 2008 01:52:09 PM |
|
|
on Mon 07 Jan 2008 05:25:22a
Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> posted
in news:fe94o3h96akisevjfoepr1p3rrh72vshea@4ax.com:
SueDoeCyAnts <pseudocy@labb.port5.com> wrote:
on Mon 21 May 2007 09:10:02a
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> posted
in news:1179767402.419936.142720@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com:
On May 21, 6:52 am, wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
:|
:|Actually, Jefferson said that the study of man's relation
:|to God is the highest reason for education...a further
:|statement than I made.
:|
:|Ken Clifton
:|christiansuperhero.com
Your unsubstantiated claim is noted.
Proof you never read my quote from Jefferson to begin with,
since that passage is the source of my substantiated claim.
Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
Please offer an attribution for this citation,
or admit you've got your head up where the sun don't shine.
It isn't a quote. It is his out-of-context misrepresentation of
a different quote, from the 1824-1826 UVA Board of Governors
report, which he reposts every few months thinking we will let
him slip it by.
lojbab
Recently while perusing my collection of
"The Writings Of Thomas Jefferson", Definitive Edition,
I ran across some very interesting Jefferson authorship
regarding his attempts to start up a Virginia public school system
paid for from the public treasury, which guaranteed access for
all through University studies who could show aptitude,
irrespective of financial class.
It was rejected by the wealthy landholders who then comprised the
Virginia State Legislature. It seems nothing changes...
If you were not aware of this, let me know,
and I'll happily post some properly cited
works of Jefferson as attribution.
Also, Google books has now begun to show
downloadable scans of many different versions
of Thomas Jefferson's writings which were published
at the turn of the 20th century.
Many of the scans are freely downloadable,
and unencumbered with copyrights.
<http://tinyurl.com/37crqo>
I came across my 20 Vol collection quite by accident many years
ago wandering into a used bookstore near the northern edge of LA
County. At the time, the price I paid for it was personally high,
$200, and was the cause for me eating a lot of macaroni and cheese
for the month after purchasing it. I probably made a very good
investment, except it's not for sale. I've promised it to a
bookworm niece as a legacy.
.
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| User: "Bill M" |
|
| Title: Re: Jefferson approves of religious curriculum |
07 Jan 2008 01:53:53 PM |
|
|
Why the hell should we put so much faith in a guy who lived over 200 years
ago and who lacked a 'modern' education and an understanding of modern
society???
"SueDoeCyAnts" <pseudocy@labb.port5.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A1DEFBC9FE0AOriginaliseThisThief@198.186.190.161...
on Mon 21 May 2007 09:10:02a
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> posted
in news:1179767402.419936.142720@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com:
On May 21, 6:52 am, wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
:|
:|Actually, Jefferson said that the study of man's relation to
:|God is the highest reason for education...a further
:|statement than I made.
:|
:|Ken Clifton
:|christiansuperhero.com
Your unsubstantiated claim is noted.
Proof you never read my quote from Jefferson to begin with,
since that passage is the source of my substantiated claim.
Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
Please offer an attribution for this citation,
or admit you've got your head up where the sun don't shine.
I do not show it in my personal DB of Jefferson's works, which
although isn't complete, does include a scanned version of
"The Writings Of Thomas Jefferson", Definitive Edition,
Albert Ellery Bergh, Editor, Copyright, 1905,
The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association
which I am willi | | | |
