| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Dr M In PhD" |
| Date: |
03 Dec 2006 11:38:26 AM |
| Object: |
Re: Laser off the Moon |
"west" <restccq2@verizon.net> wrote:
Because I'm a Ham Radio operator, I know that I can bounce radio signals off
the moon. Not knowing that much about lasers, I was wondering what would be
the minimum strength and at what frequency would it take to reflect a laser
beam off the mirror on the moon? Has anyone other than NASA accomplished
this? Can an amateur do it? Thank you.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Oh, you must mean the different sets of laser reflecting
"corner cubes" which were placed on the Moon by unmanned
Soviet and US space missions, back in covered-wagon times...
Remember, because this particular evidence regarding the laser
reflectors (which are indisputably on the surface of the Moon)
has been repeatedly cited as "proof" that living human beings
have actually been to the Moon and back (i.e., only by badly-
educated cowards who were duped by NASA's propaganda machine),
but were in reality *unmanned* missions at best that occurred
nearly FOUR DECADES ago, I'll briefly address this issue one
more time for the benefit of conscientious lurkers out there:
http://www.aerospaceguide.net/spacecraft/lunakhod.html
"Lunokhod 1 was the first successful Soviet remote-
controlled moon rover that was carried to the Moon
by Luna 17. It was launched November 10, 1970. The
rover had eight wheels.
"The Luna 17 spacecraft landed on the moon on November
17, 1970. Lunokhod 1 weighed just under 2,000 pounds
and was designed to operate for 90 days while guided
by a 5-person team. Lunokhod 1 explored the Mare
Imbrium for 11 months and traveled 11km and relayed
television pictures and scientific data.
Lunokhod 2 moon rover was an improved version of
Lunokhod 1. It was carried to the moon on Luna 21
and landed on January 16, 1973. Lunokhod 2 was faster
and carried an additional television camera. It
travelled 37km in only 8 weeks." [end quote]
http://www.zarya.info/Diaries/Luna/Lunokhod1.htm
"Lunokhod 1 went to the Moon aboard Luna 17. Its
eight wire-mesh wheels each has its own electric
motor to allow manoeuvring in tight spaces, and so
failure of a single motor did not prevent it from
moving.
The lidded box at the left is a French-built laser
reflector. It was used to reflect back to Earth a
laser beam, making it possible to measure the
distance between the Earth and Moon to an accuracy
of twenty to thirty centimetres" [end quote]
http://www.zarya.info/Diaries/Luna/Lunokhod2.htm
"There is an additional high-level TV camera for
panoramic photography, and all lenses have
improved sunshades.
The small silver box between the front wheels is
an alpha particle emitter which can be lowered
onto the Moon to measure soil composition. Like
its predecessor, Lunokhod 2 carries a French
retro-reflector for use with a laser beam
transmitted from Earth. It allows the Earth-Moon
distance to be measured to an accuracy around 20
centimetres.
http://www.zarya.info/Diaries/Luna/Luna16.htm
"the cone-shaped antenna keeps communication with
Earth while the drill arm sits in its rest position
on the right. The sample will be taken by rotating
the drill head by one hundred and eighty degrees,
lowering the drill arm to the surface and extracting
a core sample.
On returning to the rest position, the sample is
transferred to the return capsule and sent back to
Earth" [end quote]
Therefore the Soviet Lunokhod I/II-Luna XVII/XXI missions
both successfully landed their unmanned remote-controlled
lunar-rovers a.k.a. dune-buggies on the Moon: in the same
time frame as the alleged "apollo" missions were supposed
to have occurred. These remote-controlled Russian buggies
placed French- made laser reflectors on the Moon! Another
Soviet unmanned mission, Luna XVI, landed on the Moon and
returned a soil sample to the Earth by September 24, 1970:
from the Moon, unmanned, programmed and remote-controlled.
So laser-reflecting corner prisms were placed on the Moon
by unmanned probes and a 100g x 35 cm soil sample drilled
out from the lunar surface was sent back to Earth by this
earlier of these unmanned missions all in the early 1970s.
This completely and absolutely destroys any argument that
lunar soil samples or lunar laser reflectors "prove" that
men were on the Moon. Rather, as with all other evidences
cited allegedly supporting of the "apollo" missions, upon
precise examination the same evidence proves at least the
"manned" portions of these apollo missions were definitely
hoaxed. Men NEVER went to the Moon, because men have NEVER
achieved and survived sustained altitudes much above about
five or six hundred miles above Earth's sea level. Got it?
Remember, the Moon is almost a quarter million miles away--
that's *HALF A MILLION MILES ROUND TRIP*! Get the picture?
By contrast, the Russians proved that they did send their
unmanned probes to the Moon to wit: the presence of laser
reflectors left thereon by the aforesaid Lunokhod buggies.
It could be argued that the lunar soil samples were faked
somehow, but laser reflecting corner cubes are irrefutable
evidence that unmanned robotic probes put them there. See?
At least, the demonstrable presence of the "apollo" laser
reflectors proves the American space program successfully
sent some UNMANNED probes to the Moon -and- has continued
to launch many unmanned instruments into space ever since.
All these missions are UNMANNED. Why? The Sun, that's why.
That's why they NEVER send men into outer space. Not once.
Otherwise, they'd fry to a crisp in the intense radiation.
_________________________________________________________
B-rate actors running along in their deflated monkeysuits,
obviously recorded on high-speed film, "moon boot" foot-
prints in undisturbed "moon dust" merely a few FEET from
the missing blast crater! (that alone proves irrefutably
that the Apollo "manned" propaganda was ineptly hoaxed),
but everybody--every *honest* person--knows this already...
It's a PROVEN FACT NASA's six allegedly-manned half-million
miles per round-trip(!) missions to the Moon (1969-72) were
at best unmanned flights in competition with the U.S.S.R.'s
contemporaneous Soviet Luna/Lunakhod unmanned Moon missions.
"They couldn't make it so they faked it." Thus, the "manned"
portions of the missions were actually filmed under the top-
secret, heavily-guarded domed soundstages in the high desert
of Area 51, NV, perhaps around Pine Gap, AUS and maybe other
remote and publicly-inaccessible locations around the world.
__________________________________________________
Flags fluttering in the high-desert breeze, sand
buggies & actors running along in their deflated
monkeysuits-obviously recorded on highspeed film,
conspicuous absence of blast craters, impossibly
silent running under invisible exhaust emissions,
brazenly obvious backdrops that contrast sharply
against the nearby high-desert terrain ad nauseam!
__________________________________________________
The Moon is FAR BEYOND the reach of manned spacecraft, to wit:
ALTITUDE COMPARISON CHART
SHUTTLE VS. MOON & MANMADE SATELLITES
(not to scale)
x------Moon's mean geocentric distance ~239,000 miles---x
| |
| |
| |
| |
~ ~214,000 MILES ~
~ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^ ~
| |
| |
| |
x------High-altitude orbit ~25,000+ miles altitude------x
| |
x------Geostationary orbit ~22,300 miles altitude-------x
| |
| |
~ ~10,000 MILES ~
~ ~
| |
x------Mid-altitude orbit ~12,500 miles altitude--------x
| |
| |
~ ~10,000 MILES ~
~ ~
| |
x------Low-altitude orbit below ~1200 miles altitude----x
x------JPL/NASA Space Shuttle orbit ~300 miles altitude-x
x------Intl. Space Station orbit ~220 miles altitude |
x------Earth's sea level -0- miles altitude-------------x
To give you an idea of the scale involved, if each hard line
break in the chart below equals roughly 10,000 miles, to wit:
x------Moon's mean geocentric distance ~239,000 miles---x
| 230,000 |
| 220,000 |
| 210,000 |
| 200,000 |
| 190,000 |
| 180,000 |
| 170,000 |
| 160,000 |
| 150,000 |
| 140,000 |
| 130,000 |
| 120,000 |
| 110,000 |
| 100,000 |
| 90,000 |
| 80,000 |
| 70,000 |
| 60,000 |
| 50,000 |
| 40,000 |
| 30,000 |
x------Geostationary orbit ~22,300 miles altitude-------x
x------Mid-altitude orbit ~12,500 miles altitude--------x
x------Low-altitude orbit below ~1200 miles altitude----x
Thus the low-earth shuttle orbit would fit somewhere between
the center and baseline of the bottom 'x'--hardly visible at
all at this scale. And yet, that is the highest altitude any
manned flight has ever successfully sustained for any length
of time. But the "men to the moon" fairytale devotees don't
want to face up to these and other glaring facts in evidence:
*Altitude Comparison Chart of Shuttle vs. Moon & Manmade Satellites:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=A82FLEI038814.6969560185@anonymous.poster
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=A82FLEI038814.6969560185 <AT> anonymous.poster
*Apollo Moon Missions 1969-1972 Were At Best *Unmanned*:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=VTKA4X1O37500.9704861111@Gilgamesh-frog.org
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=VTKA4X1O37500.9704861111 <AT> Gilgamesh-frog.org
*Quasi-Uncensored Apollo Moon Hoax Bookmarks:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=7RL5KJIX37499.1691435185@Gilgamesh-frog.org
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=7RL5KJIX37499.1691435185 <AT> Gilgamesh-frog.org
______________________________________________________________
Merry Jesus-Christ-Is-LORD-Mass! & Io Saturnalia!
Daniel Joseph Min
http://www.2hot2cool.com/11/danieljosephmin/
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B7H2Zn5SJ1wcILLgf6Wfj7Ma
=/VA9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
.
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
|
| Title: Re: Laser off the Moon |
03 Dec 2006 02:40:58 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 17:38:26 +0000 (GMT) Dr M In PhD
<nobody@4096.net> said the following in alt.atheism and I was
immediately reminded of 1,000 Chinchillas singing Handel's "Messiah"
for some reason...
Oh, you must mean the different sets of laser reflecting
"corner cubes" which were placed on the Moon by unmanned
Soviet and US space missions, back in covered-wagon times...
Remember, because this particular evidence regarding the laser
reflectors (which are indisputably on the surface of the Moon)
has been repeatedly cited as "proof" that living human beings
have actually been to the Moon and back (i.e., only by badly-
educated cowards who were duped by NASA's propaganda machine),
but were in reality *unmanned* missions at best that occurred
nearly FOUR DECADES ago, I'll briefly address this issue one
more time for the benefit of conscientious lurkers out there:
More Min lunacy. Before reading anything by this moron, remember that
he was posting that the "Khan of Terror" was going to kill us all in
2000.
http://users.bigpond.net.au/wanglese/Buffoon.html
http://groups.google.com/groups/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Daniel+Min&qt_s=Search
He claims to be a fundamentalist Christian, but uses astrology and
Nostadamus as sources. He's complete insane.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2011
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the
source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a
stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as
good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: Laser off the Moon |
03 Dec 2006 05:48:01 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 03 Dec 2006 20:40:58 +0000, Douglas Berry wrote:
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 17:38:26 +0000 (GMT) Dr M In PhD
<nobody@4096.net> said the following in alt.atheism and I was
immediately reminded of 1,000 Chinchillas singing Handel's "Messiah"
for some reason...
Oh, you must mean the different sets of laser reflecting
"corner cubes" which were placed on the Moon by unmanned
Soviet and US space missions, back in covered-wagon times...
Remember, because this particular evidence regarding the laser
reflectors (which are indisputably on the surface of the Moon)
has been repeatedly cited as "proof" that living human beings
have actually been to the Moon and back (i.e., only by badly-
educated cowards who were duped by NASA's propaganda machine),
but were in reality *unmanned* missions at best that occurred
nearly FOUR DECADES ago, I'll briefly address this issue one
more time for the benefit of conscientious lurkers out there:
More Min lunacy. Before reading anything by this moron, remember that
he was posting that the "Khan of Terror" was going to kill us all in
2000.
http://users.bigpond.net.au/wanglese/Buffoon.html
http://groups.google.com/groups/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Daniel+Min&qt_s=Search
He claims to be a fundamentalist Christian, but uses astrology and
Nostadamus as sources. He's complete insane.
When divination is condemned by the Bible no less...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due
to the absence, from Jerusalem, of a lunatic asylum.
-Havelock Ellis
.
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| User: "west" |
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| Title: Laser off the Moon> re: Dr. Min |
04 Dec 2006 07:16:44 AM |
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|
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote in message
news:5aWdnUeh6Iqs_-7YnZ2dnUVZ_oSdnZ2d@giganews.com...
On Sun, 03 Dec 2006 20:40:58 +0000, Douglas Berry wrote:
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 17:38:26 +0000 (GMT) Dr M In PhD
<nobody@4096.net> said the following in alt.atheism and I was
immediately reminded of 1,000 Chinchillas singing Handel's "Messiah"
for some reason...
Oh, you must mean the different sets of laser reflecting
"corner cubes" which were placed on the Moon by unmanned
Soviet and US space missions, back in covered-wagon times...
Remember, because this particular evidence regarding the laser
reflectors (which are indisputably on the surface of the Moon)
has been repeatedly cited as "proof" that living human beings
have actually been to the Moon and back (i.e., only by badly-
educated cowards who were duped by NASA's propaganda machine),
but were in reality *unmanned* missions at best that occurred
nearly FOUR DECADES ago, I'll briefly address this issue one
more time for the benefit of conscientious lurkers out there:
More Min lunacy. Before reading anything by this moron, remember that
he was posting that the "Khan of Terror" was going to kill us all in
2000.
http://users.bigpond.net.au/wanglese/Buffoon.html
http://groups.google.com/groups/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Daniel+Min&qt_s=Search
He claims to be a fundamentalist Christian, but uses astrology and
Nostadamus as sources. He's complete insane.
When divination is condemned by the Bible no less...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due
to the absence, from Jerusalem, of a lunatic asylum.
-Havelock Ellis
Come on gents, take a moment for honest reflection. If Dr. Min were to
leave, I bet you and several others would miss him. Whether you agree or not
with his philosophy, you must admit that it's interesting and thought
provoking, otherwise you wouldn't comment on it so often.
Cordially,
west
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
|
| Title: Re: Laser off the Moon> re: Dr. Min |
05 Dec 2006 10:51:45 AM |
|
|
"west" <restccq2@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:0dVch.2848$Wq.2832@trnddc08...
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote in message
news:5aWdnUeh6Iqs_-7YnZ2dnUVZ_oSdnZ2d@giganews.com...
On Sun, 03 Dec 2006 20:40:58 +0000, Douglas Berry wrote:
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 17:38:26 +0000 (GMT) Dr M In PhD
<nobody@4096.net> said the following in alt.atheism and I was
immediately reminded of 1,000 Chinchillas singing Handel's "Messiah"
for some reason...
Oh, you must mean the different sets of laser reflecting
"corner cubes" which were placed on the Moon by unmanned
Soviet and US space missions, back in covered-wagon times...
Remember, because this particular evidence regarding the laser
reflectors (which are indisputably on the surface of the Moon)
has been repeatedly cited as "proof" that living human beings
have actually been to the Moon and back (i.e., only by badly-
educated cowards who were duped by NASA's propaganda machine),
but were in reality *unmanned* missions at best that occurred
nearly FOUR DECADES ago, I'll briefly address this issue one
more time for the benefit of conscientious lurkers out there:
More Min lunacy. Before reading anything by this moron, remember that
he was posting that the "Khan of Terror" was going to kill us all in
2000.
http://users.bigpond.net.au/wanglese/Buffoon.html
http://groups.google.com/groups/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Daniel+Min&qt_s=Search
He claims to be a fundamentalist Christian, but uses astrology and
Nostadamus as sources. He's complete insane.
When divination is condemned by the Bible no less...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due
to the absence, from Jerusalem, of a lunatic asylum.
-Havelock Ellis
Come on gents, take a moment for honest reflection. If Dr. Min were to
leave, I bet you and several others would miss him.
And that would be a bet you'd lose.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
.
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| User: "Starlord" |
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| Title: Re: Laser off the Moon> re: Dr. Min |
05 Dec 2006 12:21:07 PM |
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|
That's for dammed sure, and he's no doctor or anykind either, he's as full
of Bull ***** as can be. It would be a great day if his computer ever died on
him, leaving him with ZERO access.
--
There are those who believe that life here, began out there, far across the
universe, with tribes of humans, who may have been the forefathers of the
Egyptians, or the Toltechs, or the Mayans. Some believe that they may yet be
brothers of man, who even now fight to survive, somewhere beyond the
heavens.
The Lone Sidewalk Astronomer of Rosamond
Telescope Buyers FAQ
http://home.inreach.com/starlord
Sidewalk Astronomy
www.sidewalkastronomy.info
The Church of Eternity
http://home.inreach.com/starlord/church/Eternity.html
"Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote in message
news:4tlm4bF14runvU1@mid.individual.net...
"west" <restccq2@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:0dVch.2848$Wq.2832@trnddc08...
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote in message
news:5aWdnUeh6Iqs_-7YnZ2dnUVZ_oSdnZ2d@giganews.com...
On Sun, 03 Dec 2006 20:40:58 +0000, Douglas Berry wrote:
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 17:38:26 +0000 (GMT) Dr M In PhD
<nobody@4096.net> said the following in alt.atheism and I was
immediately reminded of 1,000 Chinchillas singing Handel's "Messiah"
for some reason...
Oh, you must mean the different sets of laser reflecting
"corner cubes" which were placed on the Moon by unmanned
Soviet and US space missions, back in covered-wagon times...
Remember, because this particular evidence regarding the laser
reflectors (which are indisputably on the surface of the Moon)
has been repeatedly cited as "proof" that living human beings
have actually been to the Moon and back (i.e., only by badly-
educated cowards who were duped by NASA's propaganda machine),
but were in reality *unmanned* missions at best that occurred
nearly FOUR DECADES ago, I'll briefly address this issue one
more time for the benefit of conscientious lurkers out there:
More Min lunacy. Before reading anything by this moron, remember that
he was posting that the "Khan of Terror" was going to kill us all in
2000.
http://users.bigpond.net.au/wanglese/Buffoon.html
http://groups.google.com/groups/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Daniel+Min&qt_s=Search
He claims to be a fundamentalist Christian, but uses astrology and
Nostadamus as sources. He's complete insane.
When divination is condemned by the Bible no less...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due
to the absence, from Jerusalem, of a lunatic asylum.
-Havelock Ellis
Come on gents, take a moment for honest reflection. If Dr. Min were to
leave, I bet you and several others would miss him.
And that would be a bet you'd lose.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
.
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
|
| Title: Re: Laser off the Moon> re: Dr. Min |
04 Dec 2006 07:29:20 AM |
|
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On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 13:16:44 GMT "west" <restccq2@verizon.net> said
the following in alt.atheism and I was immediately reminded of 1,000
Chinchillas singing Handel's "Messiah" for some reason...
Come on gents, take a moment for honest reflection. If Dr. Min were to
leave, I bet you and several others would miss him. Whether you agree or not
with his philosophy, you must admit that it's interesting and thought
provoking, otherwise you wouldn't comment on it so often.
First of all, he's not a PhD. Secondly, if he were to permanently
leave the internet, I would declare a five day celebration here at
Offhand Manor.
He's not thought provoking, he's insane. The only amusement comes
from watching him be totally, completely wrong on everything.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2011
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the
source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a
stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as
good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: Laser off the Moon> re: Dr. Min |
04 Dec 2006 08:47:32 AM |
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On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 13:29:20 +0000, Douglas Berry wrote:
On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 13:16:44 GMT "west" <restccq2@verizon.net> said
the following in alt.atheism and I was immediately reminded of 1,000
Chinchillas singing Handel's "Messiah" for some reason...
Come on gents, take a moment for honest reflection. If Dr. Min were to
leave, I bet you and several others would miss him. Whether you agree or not
with his philosophy, you must admit that it's interesting and thought
provoking, otherwise you wouldn't comment on it so often.
First of all, he's not a PhD. Secondly, if he were to permanently
leave the internet, I would declare a five day celebration here at
Offhand Manor.
If anybody noticed.
He *has been gone for longish periods of time and nobody remarked on his
absence...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace
alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing
it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."
-H. L. Mencken
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: Laser off the Moon> re: Dr. Min |
04 Dec 2006 08:46:27 AM |
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On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 13:16:44 +0000, west wrote:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote in message
news:5aWdnUeh6Iqs_-7YnZ2dnUVZ_oSdnZ2d@giganews.com...
On Sun, 03 Dec 2006 20:40:58 +0000, Douglas Berry wrote:
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 17:38:26 +0000 (GMT) Dr M In PhD
<nobody@4096.net> said the following in alt.atheism and I was
immediately reminded of 1,000 Chinchillas singing Handel's "Messiah"
for some reason...
Oh, you must mean the different sets of laser reflecting
"corner cubes" which were placed on the Moon by unmanned
Soviet and US space missions, back in covered-wagon times...
Remember, because this particular evidence regarding the laser
reflectors (which are indisputably on the surface of the Moon)
has been repeatedly cited as "proof" that living human beings
have actually been to the Moon and back (i.e., only by badly-
educated cowards who were duped by NASA's propaganda machine),
but were in reality *unmanned* missions at best that occurred
nearly FOUR DECADES ago, I'll briefly address this issue one
more time for the benefit of conscientious lurkers out there:
More Min lunacy. Before reading anything by this moron, remember that
he was posting that the "Khan of Terror" was going to kill us all in
2000.
http://users.bigpond.net.au/wanglese/Buffoon.html
http://groups.google.com/groups/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Daniel+Min&qt_s=Search
He claims to be a fundamentalist Christian, but uses astrology and
Nostadamus as sources. He's complete insane.
When divination is condemned by the Bible no less...
Come on gents, take a moment for honest reflection. If Dr. Min were to
leave, I bet you and several others would miss him. Whether you agree or not
with his philosophy, you must admit that it's interesting and thought
provoking, otherwise you wouldn't comment on it so often.
He's neither interesting nor thought provoking. He's a net kook. A total
freaking loon that nobody in alt.atheism would "miss."
Don't confuse a couple of one liner replies with "interest." Those of us
who've spent our careers at keyboards can toss off a short post with
trivial amounts of effort.
--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because
if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather
than that of blindfolded Fear"
- Thomas Jefferson
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| User: "John Baker" |
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| Title: Re: Laser off the Moon> re: Dr. Min |
04 Dec 2006 05:10:01 PM |
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On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 13:16:44 GMT, "west" <restccq2@verizon.net> wrote:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote in message
news:5aWdnUeh6Iqs_-7YnZ2dnUVZ_oSdnZ2d@giganews.com...
On Sun, 03 Dec 2006 20:40:58 +0000, Douglas Berry wrote:
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 17:38:26 +0000 (GMT) Dr M In PhD
<nobody@4096.net> said the following in alt.atheism and I was
immediately reminded of 1,000 Chinchillas singing Handel's "Messiah"
for some reason...
Oh, you must mean the different sets of laser reflecting
"corner cubes" which were placed on the Moon by unmanned
Soviet and US space missions, back in covered-wagon times...
Remember, because this particular evidence regarding the laser
reflectors (which are indisputably on the surface of the Moon)
has been repeatedly cited as "proof" that living human beings
have actually been to the Moon and back (i.e., only by badly-
educated cowards who were duped by NASA's propaganda machine),
but were in reality *unmanned* missions at best that occurred
nearly FOUR DECADES ago, I'll briefly address this issue one
more time for the benefit of conscientious lurkers out there:
More Min lunacy. Before reading anything by this moron, remember that
he was posting that the "Khan of Terror" was going to kill us all in
2000.
http://users.bigpond.net.au/wanglese/Buffoon.html
http://groups.google.com/groups/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Daniel+Min&qt_s=Search
He claims to be a fundamentalist Christian, but uses astrology and
Nostadamus as sources. He's complete insane.
When divination is condemned by the Bible no less...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due
to the absence, from Jerusalem, of a lunatic asylum.
-Havelock Ellis
Come on gents, take a moment for honest reflection. If Dr. Min were to
leave, I bet you and several others would miss him.
You'd lose that bet. And Min isn't a doctor of anything, with the
possible exception of Usenet idiocy.
Whether you agree or not
with his philosophy, you must admit that it's interesting and thought
provoking,
Yes. So interesting and thought-provoking that I killfile every new
nym he posts under.
otherwise you wouldn't comment on it so often.
Cordially,
west
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Laser off the Moon> re: Dr. Min |
04 Dec 2006 05:22:12 PM |
|
|
west wrote:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote in message
news:5aWdnUeh6Iqs_-7YnZ2dnUVZ_oSdnZ2d@giganews.com...
On Sun, 03 Dec 2006 20:40:58 +0000, Douglas Berry wrote:
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 17:38:26 +0000 (GMT) Dr M In PhD
<nobody@4096.net> said the following in alt.atheism and I was
immediately reminded of 1,000 Chinchillas singing Handel's "Messiah"
for some reason...
Oh, you must mean the different sets of laser reflecting
"corner cubes" which were placed on the Moon by unmanned
Soviet and US space missions, back in covered-wagon times...
Remember, because this particular evidence regarding the laser
reflectors (which are indisputably on the surface of the Moon)
has been repeatedly cited as "proof" that living human beings
have actually been to the Moon and back (i.e., only by badly-
educated cowards who were duped by NASA's propaganda machine),
but were in reality *unmanned* missions at best that occurred
nearly FOUR DECADES ago, I'll briefly address this issue one
more time for the benefit of conscientious lurkers out there:
More Min lunacy. Before reading anything by this moron, remember that
he was posting that the "Khan of Terror" was going to kill us all in
2000.
http://users.bigpond.net.au/wanglese/Buffoon.html
http://groups.google.com/groups/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Daniel+Min&qt_s=Search
He claims to be a fundamentalist Christian, but uses astrology and
Nostadamus as sources. He's complete insane.
When divination is condemned by the Bible no less...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due
to the absence, from Jerusalem, of a lunatic asylum.
-Havelock Ellis
Come on gents, take a moment for honest reflection. If Dr. Min were to
leave, I bet you and several others would miss him.
This is not his first visit to alt.atheism. On his previous visits, he
actually tried to defend his lunacies, and was driven off in shame. We
did not miss him, and are loath to see his return.
Whether you agree or not
with his philosophy, you must admit that it's interesting and thought
provoking, otherwise you wouldn't comment on it so often.
Have you noticed that most of those comments are ridicule and ad hom
attacks? The man is a loon. We already know this. He has brought
nothing new to the table except his newfound love of the moon landing
hoaxers' nonsense. He needs professional help, and in a country with a
decent national health system, he'd be locked up.
Cordially,
west
-Panama Floyd, Atl.
aa#2015, Member Knights of BAAWA!
EAC Martian Commander
Plonked by Kadaitcha Man, Sep 06
"..the prayer cloth of one aeon is the doormat of the next."
-Mark Twain
Religious societies are *less* moral than secular ones:
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Laser off the Moon |
03 Dec 2006 10:03:36 PM |
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|
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 17:38:26 +0000 (GMT), Dr M In PhD
<nobody@4096.net> wrote:
"west" <restccq2@verizon.net> wrote:
Because I'm a Ham Radio operator, I know that I can bounce radio signals off
the moon. Not knowing that much about lasers, I was wondering what would be
the minimum strength and at what frequency would it take to reflect a laser
beam off the mirror on the moon? Has anyone other than NASA accomplished
this? Can an amateur do it? Thank you.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Oh, you must mean the different sets of laser reflecting
"corner cubes" which were placed on the Moon by unmanned
Soviet and US space missions, back in covered-wagon times...
Sorry, Lunatic, but I know that men were on the moon. Ham radio
operators did what NASA didn't - we received the transmissions
directly from the PLSS radios. With the directionality of the
antennas that were used there's no possibility that it was faked.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"I received your letter of June 10th. I have never talked to a Jesuit
priest in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies
about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and
have always been an atheist."
- Albert Einstein to Guy H. Raner Jr, July 2, 1945,
responding to a rumor that a Jesuit priest had caused Einstein
to convert from atheism. Article by Michael R. Gilmore in Skeptic
magazine, Vol. 5, No. 2, 1997
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
.
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| User: "west" |
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| Title: Laser off the Moon >P: Atheist |
04 Dec 2006 07:28:54 AM |
|
|
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:ic77n2hkafm6n7iv61ehp0profaasrsa61@4ax.com...
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 17:38:26 +0000 (GMT), Dr M In PhD
<nobody@4096.net> wrote:
"west" <restccq2@verizon.net> wrote:
Because I'm a Ham Radio operator, I know that I can bounce radio signals
off
the moon. Not knowing that much about lasers, I was wondering what would
be
the minimum strength and at what frequency would it take to reflect a
laser
beam off the mirror on the moon? Has anyone other than NASA accomplished
this? Can an amateur do it? Thank you.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Oh, you must mean the different sets of laser reflecting
"corner cubes" which were placed on the Moon by unmanned
Soviet and US space missions, back in covered-wagon times...
Sorry, Lunatic, but I know that men were on the moon. Ham radio
operators did what NASA didn't - we received the transmissions
directly from the PLSS radios. With the directionality of the
antennas that were used there's no possibility that it was faked.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"I received your letter of June 10th. I have never talked to a Jesuit
priest in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies
about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and
have always been an atheist."
- Albert Einstein to Guy H. Raner Jr, July 2, 1945,
responding to a rumor that a Jesuit priest had caused Einstein
to convert from atheism. Article by Michael R. Gilmore in Skeptic
magazine, Vol. 5, No. 2, 1997
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
Einstein never converted. He always believed in a Creator because of
reasoning. How would you explain what was before the Big Bang and why did it
happen? I ask this in due respect. Thanks.
Cordially,
west
BTW: Is the personal name calling attack necessary?
.
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| User: "Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th" |
|
| Title: Re: Laser off the Moon >P: Atheist |
04 Dec 2006 06:51:44 PM |
|
|
"west" <restccq2@verizon.net> wrote in news:qoVch.2849$Wq.2066@trnddc08:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:ic77n2hkafm6n7iv61ehp0profaasrsa61@4ax.com...
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 17:38:26 +0000 (GMT), Dr M In PhD
<nobody@4096.net> wrote:
"west" <restccq2@verizon.net> wrote:
Because I'm a Ham Radio operator, I know that I can bounce radio
signals
off
the moon. Not knowing that much about lasers, I was wondering what
would
be
the minimum strength and at what frequency would it take to reflect a
laser
beam off the mirror on the moon? Has anyone other than NASA
accomplished this? Can an amateur do it? Thank you.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Oh, you must mean the different sets of laser reflecting
"corner cubes" which were placed on the Moon by unmanned
Soviet and US space missions, back in covered-wagon times...
Sorry, Lunatic, but I know that men were on the moon. Ham radio
operators did what NASA didn't - we received the transmissions
directly from the PLSS radios. With the directionality of the
antennas that were used there's no possibility that it was faked.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"I received your letter of June 10th. I have never talked to a Jesuit
priest in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies
about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and
have always been an atheist."
- Albert Einstein to Guy H. Raner Jr, July 2, 1945,
responding to a rumor that a Jesuit priest had caused Einstein
to convert from atheism. Article by Michael R. Gilmore in Skeptic
magazine, Vol. 5, No. 2, 1997
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
Einstein never converted. He always believed in a Creator because of
reasoning.
Atheists don't believe in a creator. Can you actually read what Einstein
wrote above?
How would you explain what was before the Big Bang and why
did it happen? I ask this in due respect. Thanks.
You don't explain it unless you have a theory of physics, which is strongly
supported by empirical evidence. Until then the question is answered
truthfully by saying "I don't know". Claiming an old man in the sky is
responsible is the combined fallacy of appeal to ignorance combined with
special pleading.
Appeal to ignorance fallacy:
I/we can't explain/don't know the cause of X, therefore Y (god, pixie,
leprechaun etc).
This is the most idiotic of all non sequiturs.
Special Pleading fallacy:
X is so hard to explain that it must have been caused by an even more
difficult to explain Y.
Cordially,
west
BTW: Is the personal name calling attack necessary?
What name calling? The quote in Al's post was from a random quote selector.
I note the the OP originally posted the question in alt.astronomy. Min
crossposted its' reply to a whole lot of unrelated groups. It is an
ignorant troll.
Klazmon.
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: Laser off the Moon >P: Atheist |
04 Dec 2006 11:11:39 AM |
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On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 13:28:54 GMT, "west" <restccq2@verizon.net> wrote:
Einstein never converted. He always believed in a Creator
He never believed in what you call "a Creator". He believed that, if
you had to call something "God", it was the universe.
How would you explain what was before the Big Bang and why did it
happen?
Since time is a property of the universe, "before the Big Bang" has no
meaning. There was no time before t=0.
As for why it happened, I'll answer that as soon as you post objective
evidence that there was a "why". (Hint: the evidence must be
applicable to the time before the Big Bang.)
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"For aught we know a priori, matter may contain the source, or spring, of order
originating within itself, as well as the mind does."
- David Hume, Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
.
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| User: "eyelessgame" |
|
| Title: Re: Laser off the Moon >P: Atheist |
04 Dec 2006 11:44:35 AM |
|
|
west wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:ic77n2hkafm6n7iv61ehp0profaasrsa61@4ax.com...
rukbat at optonline dot net
"I received your letter of June 10th. I have never talked to a Jesuit
priest in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies
about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and
have always been an atheist."
- Albert Einstein to Guy H. Raner Jr, July 2, 1945,
responding to a rumor that a Jesuit priest had caused Einstein
to convert from atheism. Article by Michael R. Gilmore in Skeptic
magazine, Vol. 5, No. 2, 1997
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
Einstein never converted. He always believed in a Creator
The quote was "I am, of course, and have always been an atheist." I'd
have to say you don't know much about atheists if you think they
believe in a Creator with a capital C. Einstein was an atheist. He
said so. I would think it's rude to call him a liar, especially since
he's no longer here to defend himself.
because of reasoning. How would you explain what was before the Big Bang
The question may not have any meaning - see Al's response. If it turns
out that the question does have meaning, the /correct/ answer is "we
don't know, at least not yet." That used to be the correct answer for
"why are there thunderstorms?" The people who insisted that this
ignorance of what causes thunderstorms implied the existence of Thor
turned out to be wrong.
and why did it happen?
Again, we don't know if the question has meaning - if the universe was,
in Planck time, a quantum, then it may lack a cause entirely - but
there was a cause, we don't know, at least not yet, what that cause
was. See above for what that admission does not imply.
I ask this in due respect. Thanks.
Hope the answer explains.
I happen to think it's a bad idea, theologically, to invoke God to fill
the gaps in our knowledge. People who do that basically spend their
lives watching God get smaller and further away. While I don't have
any belief in any gods, I think it's a more pleasant notion to think of
God as being revealed in everyday life, and not to worry so much about
whether the Big Bang (or evolution or heliocentricity or global
warming) proves or disproves His existence.
But that's just my opinion, and on theological matters my opinion may
be worth what you paid for it, but certainly no more.
Cordially,
west
BTW: Is the personal name calling attack necessary?
Yes, absolutely. One cannot post to usenet without namecalling.
eyelessgame
.
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| User: "west" |
|
| Title: Re:Einstein not an Atheist |
09 Dec 2006 01:28:27 PM |
|
|
"eyelessgame" <aamp@surewest.net> wrote in message
news:1165254275.675689.99520@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
west wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:ic77n2hkafm6n7iv61ehp0profaasrsa61@4ax.com...
rukbat at optonline dot net
"I received your letter of June 10th. I have never talked to a Jesuit
priest in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such
lies
about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and
have always been an atheist."
- Albert Einstein to Guy H. Raner Jr, July 2, 1945,
responding to a rumor that a Jesuit priest had caused Einstein
to convert from atheism. Article by Michael R. Gilmore in Skeptic
magazine, Vol. 5, No. 2, 1997
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
Einstein never converted. He always believed in a Creator
The quote was "I am, of course, and have always been an atheist." I'd
have to say you don't know much about atheists if you think they
believe in a Creator with a capital C. Einstein was an atheist. He
said so. I would think it's rude to call him a liar, especially since
he's no longer here to defend himself.
because of reasoning. How would you explain what was before the Big Bang
The question may not have any meaning - see Al's response. If it turns
out that the question does have meaning, the /correct/ answer is "we
don't know, at least not yet." That used to be the correct answer for
"why are there thunderstorms?" The people who insisted that this
ignorance of what causes thunderstorms implied the existence of Thor
turned out to be wrong.
and why did it happen?
Again, we don't know if the question has meaning - if the universe was,
in Planck time, a quantum, then it may lack a cause entirely - but
there was a cause, we don't know, at least not yet, what that cause
was. See above for what that admission does not imply.
I ask this in due respect. Thanks.
Hope the answer explains.
I happen to think it's a bad idea, theologically, to invoke God to fill
the gaps in our knowledge. People who do that basically spend their
lives watching God get smaller and further away. While I don't have
any belief in any gods, I think it's a more pleasant notion to think of
God as being revealed in everyday life, and not to worry so much about
whether the Big Bang (or evolution or heliocentricity or global
warming) proves or disproves His existence.
But that's just my opinion, and on theological matters my opinion may
be worth what you paid for it, but certainly no more.
Cordially,
west
BTW: Is the personal name calling attack necessary?
Yes, absolutely. One cannot post to usenet without namecalling.
eyelessgame
Einstein famous statement: "G-d does not play dice." How do you explain
that?
west
.
|
|
|
| User: "John Baker" |
|
| Title: Re: Einstein not an Atheist |
09 Dec 2006 01:55:48 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 19:28:27 GMT, "west" <restccq2@verizon.net> wrote:
"eyelessgame" <aamp@surewest.net> wrote in message
news:1165254275.675689.99520@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
west wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:ic77n2hkafm6n7iv61ehp0profaasrsa61@4ax.com...
rukbat at optonline dot net
"I received your letter of June 10th. I have never talked to a Jesuit
priest in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such
lies
about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and
have always been an atheist."
- Albert Einstein to Guy H. Raner Jr, July 2, 1945,
responding to a rumor that a Jesuit priest had caused Einstein
to convert from atheism. Article by Michael R. Gilmore in Skeptic
magazine, Vol. 5, No. 2, 1997
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
Einstein never converted. He always believed in a Creator
The quote was "I am, of course, and have always been an atheist." I'd
have to say you don't know much about atheists if you think they
believe in a Creator with a capital C. Einstein was an atheist. He
said so. I would think it's rude to call him a liar, especially since
he's no longer here to defend himself.
because of reasoning. How would you explain what was before the Big Bang
The question may not have any meaning - see Al's response. If it turns
out that the question does have meaning, the /correct/ answer is "we
don't know, at least not yet." That used to be the correct answer for
"why are there thunderstorms?" The people who insisted that this
ignorance of what causes thunderstorms implied the existence of Thor
turned out to be wrong.
and why did it happen?
Again, we don't know if the question has meaning - if the universe was,
in Planck time, a quantum, then it may lack a cause entirely - but
there was a cause, we don't know, at least not yet, what that cause
was. See above for what that admission does not imply.
I ask this in due respect. Thanks.
Hope the answer explains.
I happen to think it's a bad idea, theologically, to invoke God to fill
the gaps in our knowledge. People who do that basically spend their
lives watching God get smaller and further away. While I don't have
any belief in any gods, I think it's a more pleasant notion to think of
God as being revealed in everyday life, and not to worry so much about
whether the Big Bang (or evolution or heliocentricity or global
warming) proves or disproves His existence.
But that's just my opinion, and on theological matters my opinion may
be worth what you paid for it, but certainly no more.
Cordially,
west
BTW: Is the personal name calling attack necessary?
Yes, absolutely. One cannot post to usenet without namecalling.
eyelessgame
Einstein famous statement: "G-d does not play dice." How do you explain
that?
Can you say 'metaphor?'
west
.
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| User: "Free Lunch" |
|
| Title: Re: Einstein not an Atheist |
09 Dec 2006 01:39:41 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 19:28:27 GMT, in alt.atheism
"west" <restccq2@verizon.net> wrote in <v7Eeh.152$495.104@trnddc06>:
"eyelessgame" <aamp@surewest.net> wrote in message
news:1165254275.675689.99520@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
west wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:ic77n2hkafm6n7iv61ehp0profaasrsa61@4ax.com...
rukbat at optonline dot net
"I received your letter of June 10th. I have never talked to a Jesuit
priest in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such
lies
about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and
have always been an atheist."
- Albert Einstein to Guy H. Raner Jr, July 2, 1945,
responding to a rumor that a Jesuit priest had caused Einstein
to convert from atheism. Article by Michael R. Gilmore in Skeptic
magazine, Vol. 5, No. 2, 1997
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
Einstein never converted. He always believed in a Creator
The quote was "I am, of course, and have always been an atheist." I'd
have to say you don't know much about atheists if you think they
believe in a Creator with a capital C. Einstein was an atheist. He
said so. I would think it's rude to call him a liar, especially since
he's no longer here to defend himself.
because of reasoning. How would you explain what was before the Big Bang
The question may not have any meaning - see Al's response. If it turns
out that the question does have meaning, the /correct/ answer is "we
don't know, at least not yet." That used to be the correct answer for
"why are there thunderstorms?" The people who insisted that this
ignorance of what causes thunderstorms implied the existence of Thor
turned out to be wrong.
and why did it happen?
Again, we don't know if the question has meaning - if the universe was,
in Planck time, a quantum, then it may lack a cause entirely - but
there was a cause, we don't know, at least not yet, what that cause
was. See above for what that admission does not imply.
I ask this in due respect. Thanks.
Hope the answer explains.
I happen to think it's a bad idea, theologically, to invoke God to fill
the gaps in our knowledge. People who do that basically spend their
lives watching God get smaller and further away. While I don't have
any belief in any gods, I think it's a more pleasant notion to think of
God as being revealed in everyday life, and not to worry so much about
whether the Big Bang (or evolution or heliocentricity or global
warming) proves or disproves His existence.
But that's just my opinion, and on theological matters my opinion may
be worth what you paid for it, but certainly no more.
Cordially,
west
BTW: Is the personal name calling attack necessary?
Yes, absolutely. One cannot post to usenet without namecalling.
eyelessgame
Einstein famous statement: "G-d does not play dice." How do you explain
that?
An allegorical god.
.
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| User: "Bill Hudson" |
|
| Title: Re: Re:Einstein not an Atheist |
09 Dec 2006 03:03:09 PM |
|
|
west wrote:
"eyelessgame" <aamp@surewest.net> wrote in message
news:1165254275.675689.99520@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
west wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:ic77n2hkafm6n7iv61ehp0profaasrsa61@4ax.com...
rukbat at optonline dot net
"I received your letter of June 10th. I have never talked to a Jesuit
priest in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such
lies
about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and
have always been an atheist."
- Albert Einstein to Guy H. Raner Jr, July 2, 1945,
responding to a rumor that a Jesuit priest had caused Einstein
to convert from atheism. Article by Michael R. Gilmore in Skeptic
magazine, Vol. 5, No. 2, 1997
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
Einstein never converted. He always believed in a Creator
The quote was "I am, of course, and have always been an atheist." I'd
have to say you don't know much about atheists if you think they
believe in a Creator with a capital C. Einstein was an atheist. He
said so. I would think it's rude to call him a liar, especially since
he's no longer here to defend himself.
because of reasoning. How would you explain what was before the Big Bang
The question may not have any meaning - see Al's response. If it turns
out that the question does have meaning, the /correct/ answer is "we
don't know, at least not yet." That used to be the correct answer for
"why are there thunderstorms?" The people who insisted that this
ignorance of what causes thunderstorms implied the existence of Thor
turned out to be wrong.
and why did it happen?
Again, we don't know if the question has meaning - if the universe was,
in Planck time, a quantum, then it may lack a cause entirely - but
there was a cause, we don't know, at least not yet, what that cause
was. See above for what that admission does not imply.
I ask this in due respect. Thanks.
Hope the answer explains.
I happen to think it's a bad idea, theologically, to invoke God to fill
the gaps in our knowledge. People who do that basically spend their
lives watching God get smaller and further away. While I don't have
any belief in any gods, I think it's a more pleasant notion to think of
God as being revealed in everyday life, and not to worry so much about
whether the Big Bang (or evolution or heliocentricity or global
warming) proves or disproves His existence.
But that's just my opinion, and on theological matters my opinion may
be worth what you paid for it, but certainly no more.
Cordially,
west
BTW: Is the personal name calling attack necessary?
Yes, absolutely. One cannot post to usenet without namecalling.
eyelessgame
Einstein famous statement: "G-d does not play dice." How do you explain
that?
west
Einstein's belief system changed over time (as many peoples do). When
asked the question: "Do you believe in the God of Spinoza" he
reportedly replied:
"I can't answer with a simple yes or no. I'm not an atheist and I don't
think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little
child entering a huge library filled with books in many different
languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It
does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the
arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to
me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward
God. We see a universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws,
but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds cannot grasp
the mysterious force that moves the constellations. I am fascinated by
Spinoza's pantheism, but admire even more his contributions to modern
thought because he is the first philosopher to deal with the soul and
the body as one, not two separate things." Denis Brian, Einstein, A
Life, New York, 1996,p. 186.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Chris H. Fleming" |
|
| Title: Re: Re:Einstein not an Atheist |
09 Dec 2006 03:38:57 PM |
|
|
Bill Hudson wrote:
west wrote:
"eyelessgame" <aamp@surewest.net> wrote in message
news:1165254275.675689.99520@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
west wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:ic77n2hkafm6n7iv61ehp0profaasrsa61@4ax.com...
rukbat at optonline dot net
"I received your letter of June 10th. I have never talked to a Jesuit
priest in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such
lies
about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and
have always been an atheist."
- Albert Einstein to Guy H. Raner Jr, July 2, 1945,
responding to a rumor that a Jesuit priest had caused Einstein
to convert from atheism. Article by Michael R. Gilmore in Skeptic
magazine, Vol. 5, No. 2, 1997
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
Einstein never converted. He always believed in a Creator
The quote was "I am, of course, and have always been an atheist." I'd
have to say you don't know much about atheists if you think they
believe in a Creator with a capital C. Einstein was an atheist. He
said so. I would think it's rude to call him a liar, especially since
he's no longer here to defend himself.
because of reasoning. How would you explain what was before the Big Bang
The question may not have any meaning - see Al's response. If it turns
out that the question does have meaning, the /correct/ answer is "we
don't know, at least not yet." That used to be the correct answer for
"why are there thunderstorms?" The people who insisted that this
ignorance of what causes thunderstorms implied the existence of Thor
turned out to be wrong.
and why did it happen?
Again, we don't know if the question has meaning - if the universe was,
in Planck time, a quantum, then it may lack a cause entirely - but
there was a cause, we don't know, at least not yet, what that cause
was. See above for what that admission does not imply.
I ask this in due respect. Thanks.
Hope the answer explains.
I happen to think it's a bad idea, theologically, to invoke God to fill
the gaps in our knowledge. People who do that basically spend their
lives watching God get smaller and further away. While I don't have
any belief in any gods, I think it's a more pleasant notion to think of
God as being revealed in everyday life, and not to worry so much about
whether the Big Bang (or evolution or heliocentricity or global
warming) proves or disproves His existence.
But that's just my opinion, and on theological matters my opinion may
be worth what you paid for it, but certainly no more.
Cordially,
west
BTW: Is the personal name calling attack necessary?
Yes, absolutely. One cannot post to usenet without namecalling.
eyelessgame
Einstein famous statement: "G-d does not play dice." How do you explain
that?
west
Einstein's belief system changed over time (as many peoples do). When
asked the question: "Do you believe in the God of Spinoza" he
reportedly replied:
"I can't answer with a simple yes or no. I'm not an atheist and I don't
think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little
child entering a huge library filled with books in many different
languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It
does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the
arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to
me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward
God. We see a universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws,
but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds cannot grasp
the mysterious force that moves the constellations. I am fascinated by
Spinoza's pantheism, but admire even more his contributions to modern
thought because he is the first philosopher to deal with the soul and
the body as one, not two separate things." Denis Brian, Einstein, A
Life, New York, 1996,p. 186.
It should be mentioned that Spinoza's god has no personality and is
bound by natural law and determinism. It is a philosopher's god and not
a theological god.
Too many people like to conflate Einstein's beliefs with their own.
Einstein considered belief in a Yahweh-like god to be childish, but he
always denied being an atheist.
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| User: "Bill Hudson" |
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| Title: Re: Re:Einstein not an Atheist |
09 Dec 2006 03:56:53 PM |
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Chris H. Fleming wrote:
[snipped]
It should be mentioned that Spinoza's god has no personality and is
bound by natural law and determinism. It is a philosopher's god and not
a theological god.
Too many people like to conflate Einstein's beliefs with their own.
Einstein considered belief in a Yahweh-like god to be childish, but he
always denied being an atheist.
He also believed that religions tend to make God into an
anthropomorphic being in their own image, and he strongly rejected that
idea, saying that it was the cause of most of the tensions and problems
between various religions.
I'm always appalled at the poor logic when someone says (in essence)
"Einstein believed in God, therefore my view of God is right!".
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Einstein not an Atheist |
10 Dec 2006 01:04:06 AM |
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On 9 Dec 2006 13:56:53 -0800, "Bill Hudson" <oldgeek61-951@yahoo.com>
wrote:
I'm always appalled at the poor logic when someone says (in essence)
"Einstein believed in God, therefore my view of God is right!".
Appeal to authority, and an erroneous appeal at that.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
- H. L. Mencken
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Einstein not an Atheist |
09 Dec 2006 03:45:34 PM |
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On 9 Dec 2006 13:03:09 -0800, "Bill Hudson" <oldgeek61-951@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Einstein's belief system changed over time (as many peoples do). When
asked the question: "Do you believe in the God of Spinoza" he
reportedly replied:
"I can't answer with a simple yes or no. I'm not an atheist and I don't
think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little
child entering a huge library filled with books in many different
languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It
does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the
arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to
me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward
God. We see a universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws,
but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds cannot grasp
the mysterious force that moves the constellations. I am fascinated by
Spinoza's pantheism, but admire even more his contributions to modern
thought because he is the first philosopher to deal with the soul and
the body as one, not two separate things." Denis Brian, Einstein, A
Life, New York, 1996,p. 186.
That was early - printed in 1930, but probably arrived at a few years
(at least) earlier. (He gave up Biblical religiosity at the age of
12.) He also said:
"But what possible difference does it make to anyone if we use the
word 'God' in place of 'order' or 'harmony,' except perhaps to avoid
the accusation of having no God?"
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious
convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not
believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have
expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called
religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the
world so far as our science can reveal it."
"I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the
actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures
of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that
mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt
by modern science."
"I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider
ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority
behind it."
"Since our inner experiences consist of reproductions and combinations
of sensory impressions, the concept of a soul without a body seems to
me to be empty and devoid of meaning."
It seems the only reason he distanced himself from the "atheist" label
was:
"From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have
always been an atheist.... I have repeatedly said that in my opinion
the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an
agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional
atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from
the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an
attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual
understanding of nature and of our being."
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious
conviction."
- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "Bill Hudson" |
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| Title: Re: Einstein not an Atheist |
09 Dec 2006 03:52:55 PM |
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Al Klein wrote:
On 9 Dec 2006 13:03:09 -0800, "Bill Hudson" <oldgeek61-951@yahoo.com>
wrote:
[snipped excellent discourse on Einstein's beliefs]
I rather liked the short quip he made in a letter to a friend in 1954,
about how he was a "deeply religious nonbeliever". Einstein made it
clear that he was not an Athiest, or a Christian, or a Panthiest or a
Deist. What he *was* is more difficult to determine, but I'd sum it up
as his belief system was "Einsteinian"; uniquely his.
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| User: "Double-A" |
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| Title: Re: Einstein not an Atheist |
09 Dec 2006 06:41:59 PM |
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Bill Hudson wrote:
Al Klein wrote:
On 9 Dec 2006 13:03:09 -0800, "Bill Hudson" <oldgeek61-951@yahoo.com>
wrote:
[snipped excellent discourse on Einstein's beliefs]
I rather liked the short quip he made in a letter to a friend in 1954,
about how he was a "deeply religious nonbeliever". Einstein made it
clear that he was not an Athiest, or a Christian, or a Panthiest or a
Deist. What he *was* is more difficult to determine, but I'd sum it up
as his belief system was "Einsteinian"; uniquely his.
A person can conceivably believe in a higher being without presuming to
know the nature of that higher being.
Double-A
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| User: "NC" |
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| Title: Re: Einstein not an Atheist |
10 Dec 2006 12:13:30 AM |
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Double-A wrote:
Bill Hudson wrote:
Einstein made it clear that he was not an Athiest, or a Christian, or
a Panthiest or a Deist. What he *was* is more difficult to
determine, but I'd sum it up as his belief system was "Einsteinian";
uniquely his.
A person can conceivably believe in a higher being without presuming
to know the nature of that higher being.
A person can conceivably believe in a transmetaphonic interflexure
without presuming to know the nature of that transmetaphonic
interflexure.
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Einstein not an Atheist |
09 Dec 2006 03:59:18 PM |
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On 9 Dec 2006 13:52:55 -0800, "Bill Hudson" <oldgeek61-951@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Al Klein wrote:
On 9 Dec 2006 13:03:09 -0800, "Bill Hudson" <oldgeek61-951@yahoo.com>
wrote:
[snipped excellent discourse on Einstein's beliefs]
I rather liked the short quip he made in a letter to a friend in 1954,
about how he was a "deeply religious nonbeliever". Einstein made it
clear that he was not an Athiest, or a Christian, or a Panthiest or a
Deist. What he *was* is more difficult to determine, but I'd sum it up
as his belief system was "Einsteinian"; uniquely his.
If he wasn't theist then he was atheist - according to the atheists'
own meaning of the word, because that's all we are: people who aren't
theist. Whatever believers who imagine the universe revolves around
their god-belief rudely insist on telling us our POV "really" is.
After all, it's the label for our POV, not the label for what
believers think our POV is.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Einstein not an Atheist |
09 Dec 2006 11:51:38 PM |
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On 9 Dec 2006 13:52:55 -0800, "Bill Hudson" <oldgeek61-951@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Al Klein wrote:
On 9 Dec 2006 13:03:09 -0800, "Bill Hudson" <oldgeek61-951@yahoo.com>
wrote:
[snipped excellent discourse on Einstein's beliefs]
I rather liked the short quip he made in a letter to a friend in 1954,
about how he was a "deeply religious nonbeliever". Einstein made it
clear that he was not an Athiest, or a Christian, or a Panthiest or a
Deist. What he *was* is more difficult to determine, but I'd sum it up
as his belief system was "Einsteinian"; uniquely his.
He said, very plainly, that he wasn't one of those atheists who make a
religion about atheism. Did he really have to spell out the rest of
it?
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"Atheism is the world of reality, it is reason, it is freedom. Atheism is human
concern, and intellectual honesty to a degree that the religious mind cannot
begin to understand. And yet it is more than this. Atheism is not an old
religion, it is not a new and coming religion, in fact it is not, and never has
been, a religion at all. The definition of Atheism is magnificent in its
simplicity: Atheism is merely the bed-rock of sanity in a world of madness."
[Atheism: An Affirmative View, by Emmett F. Fields]
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "Thurisaz, Germanic barbarian" |
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| Title: Re: Laser off the Moon >P: Atheist |
04 Dec 2006 02:18:56 PM |
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west:
Einstein never converted. He always believed in a Creator because of
reasoning.
If reasoning was involved that this "creator" canNOT have been the christian
monster jehoover.
How would you explain what was before the Big Bang and why did
it
happen?
How can you explain that the die I just rolled came up 5? You can't,
therefore no gawd.
About as logical as your "logic" above.
I ask this in due respect.
And standard ignorance, or dishonesty. It stands to reason which is worse.
BTW: Is the personal name calling attack necessary?
Coming up with "arguments" that were already debunked, burned, and the ashes
pissed upon is equal to what you call "personal name calling". Get a
fucking clue.
--
"To his friend a man a friend shall prove, and gifts with gifts requite;
But men shall mocking with mockery answer, and fraud with falsehood meet."
(The Poetic Edda)
Must have been written with fundies in mind...
My personal judgment of monotheism:
http://www.carcosa.de/nojebus
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