| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Michael Kellogg" |
| Date: |
17 Aug 2003 01:23:30 AM |
| Object: |
Re: !Mel Gibson's New Film |
"Peacenik" wrote:
It's a great, original and unique concept. Let's hope that unbelievers
don't force him to tell anything but The Truth.
The gospels make a great story, but they are only stories, not reality.
Your opinion. Quite a few more people than you believe they are fact.
What makes you think they're fiction anyway?
--
God Bless,
Michael
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| User: "Scott Erb" |
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| Title: Re: !Mel Gibson's New Film |
17 Aug 2003 07:48:43 AM |
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"Michael Kellogg" <michael@kelloggs.org> wrote in message
news:Xns93D9EDA68EC84mk13579@199.45.49.11...
"Peacenik" wrote:
It's a great, original and unique concept. Let's hope that unbelievers
don't force him to tell anything but The Truth.
The gospels make a great story, but they are only stories, not reality.
Your opinion. Quite a few more people than you believe they are fact.
What makes you think they're fiction anyway?
I don't know about Peacenik, but I'll give you an answer.
I suspect (and no one can know for sure -- it depends on what you believe)
they are a mix of fact and fiction.
I find the words associated with Jesus (I like the fact they appear in red
in my Bible) to be very profound and wise, and they reflect a philosophy of
life which I try to follow.
But I don't believe that he was the son of God...or better, I think we are
all "sons of God" in that sense, and that God is concept that describes the
spiritual unity of all. To me most religions are mythologies that try to
capture that sense, but too often become abused by humans who lose sight of
the higher purpose behind the teachings, and focus on a 'them vs. us'
mentality.
I don't begrudge your belief they are fact. In fact, I believe that what
Gandhi said -- that the only problem with Christianity is that Christians
don't act more like their Christ (not exactly his words, it was something
like that) -- is valid. To me if the message and teachings are sound, the
person they are associated with is less important. I know that flies in the
face of a lot of Christian theology, but hopefully agreement on some basic
ethical principles can allow mutual respect, even if there are deep
religious differences. If so, I think most religions at base share similar
core values, and there is no need for religious conflict.
.
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| User: "Kurt Nicklas" |
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| Title: Re: !Mel Gibson's New Film |
17 Aug 2003 12:14:40 PM |
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"Scott Erb" <scotterb@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<LQK%a.103491$0v4.7211130@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
"Michael Kellogg" <michael@kelloggs.org> wrote in message
news:Xns93D9EDA68EC84mk13579@199.45.49.11...
"Peacenik" wrote:
It's a great, original and unique concept. Let's hope that unbelievers
don't force him to tell anything but The Truth.
The gospels make a great story, but they are only stories, not reality.
Your opinion. Quite a few more people than you believe they are fact.
What makes you think they're fiction anyway?
I don't know about Peacenik, but I'll give you an answer.
I suspect (and no one can know for sure -- it depends on what you believe)
they are a mix of fact and fiction.
I find the words associated with Jesus (I like the fact they appear in red
in my Bible) to be very profound and wise, and they reflect a philosophy of
life which I try to follow.
Words such as the following, for example? --
"I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My
Father's name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe,
because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My
voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal
life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them
out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than
all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
I and My Father are one "
------------------
Kurt Nicklas
http://www.passion-movie.com/english/
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| User: "Scott Erb" |
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| Title: Re: !Mel Gibson's New Film |
17 Aug 2003 03:24:41 PM |
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"Kurt Nicklas" <kurtnicklas@aport2000.ru> wrote in message
news:81676ec2.0308170914.41d1bddf@posting.google.com...
"Scott Erb" <scotterb@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:<LQK%a.103491$0v4.7211130@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
"Michael Kellogg" <michael@kelloggs.org> wrote in message
news:Xns93D9EDA68EC84mk13579@199.45.49.11...
"Peacenik" wrote:
It's a great, original and unique concept. Let's hope that
unbelievers
don't force him to tell anything but The Truth.
The gospels make a great story, but they are only stories, not
reality.
Your opinion. Quite a few more people than you believe they are fact.
What makes you think they're fiction anyway?
I don't know about Peacenik, but I'll give you an answer.
I suspect (and no one can know for sure -- it depends on what you
believe)
they are a mix of fact and fiction.
I find the words associated with Jesus (I like the fact they appear in
red
in my Bible) to be very profound and wise, and they reflect a philosophy
of
life which I try to follow.
Words such as the following, for example? --
"I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My
Father's name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe,
because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My
voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal
life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them
out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than
all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
I and My Father are one "
------------------
Kurt Nicklas
I don't find those as good as others. After all, most Christian theologians
have questions about who wrote the gospels and how they were changed, only a
small group thinks they are wholly accurate. Me, I focus on the spiritual
wisdom, not on the bits like above which can be interpreted many ways. But
since I think we all are one, in a deep, spiritual sense, the statement "I
and my father are one," is valid -- and all of us can make that same
statement.
.
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| User: "Al" |
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| Title: Re: !Mel Gibson's New Film |
18 Aug 2003 09:54:10 AM |
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"Scott Erb" <scotterb@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<dwR%a.102649$3o3.7173794@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
"Kurt Nicklas" <kurtnicklas@aport2000.ru> wrote in message
news:81676ec2.0308170914.41d1bddf@posting.google.com...
"Scott Erb" <scotterb@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:<LQK%a.103491$0v4.7211130@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
"Michael Kellogg" <michael@kelloggs.org> wrote in message
news:Xns93D9EDA68EC84mk13579@199.45.49.11...
"Peacenik" wrote:
It's a great, original and unique concept. Let's hope that
unbelievers
don't force him to tell anything but The Truth.
The gospels make a great story, but they are only stories, not
reality.
Your opinion. Quite a few more people than you believe they are fact.
What makes you think they're fiction anyway?
I don't know about Peacenik, but I'll give you an answer.
I suspect (and no one can know for sure -- it depends on what you
believe)
they are a mix of fact and fiction.
I find the words associated with Jesus (I like the fact they appear in
red
in my Bible) to be very profound and wise, and they reflect a philosophy
of
life which I try to follow.
Words such as the following, for example? --
"I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My
Father's name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe,
because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My
voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal
life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them
out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than
all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
I and My Father are one "
------------------
Kurt Nicklas
I don't find those as good as others. After all, most Christian theologians
have questions about who wrote the gospels and how they were changed, only a
small group thinks they are wholly accurate. Me, I focus on the spiritual
wisdom, not on the bits like above which can be interpreted many ways. But
since I think we all are one, in a deep, spiritual sense, the statement "I
and my father are one," is valid -- and all of us can make that same
statement.
This is exactly how the Orthodox Church approaches the
Gospels...spiritual truth. As historical documents they...well...to
put it into churchly language...sucketh!
Al
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| User: "Zaphenath" |
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| Title: Re: !Mel Gibson's New Film |
19 Aug 2003 05:58:57 PM |
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Scott Erb wrote:
"Kurt Nicklas" <kurtnicklas@aport2000.ru> wrote in message
news:81676ec2.0308170914.41d1bddf@posting.google.com...
"Scott Erb" <scotterb@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:<LQK%a.103491$0v4.7211130@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
"Michael Kellogg" <michael@kelloggs.org> wrote in message
news:Xns93D9EDA68EC84mk13579@199.45.49.11...
"Peacenik" wrote:
It's a great, original and unique concept. Let's hope that
unbelievers
don't force him to tell anything but The Truth.
The gospels make a great story, but they are only stories, not
reality.
Your opinion. Quite a few more people than you believe they are fact.
What makes you think they're fiction anyway?
I don't know about Peacenik, but I'll give you an answer.
I suspect (and no one can know for sure -- it depends on what you
believe)
they are a mix of fact and fiction.
I find the words associated with Jesus (I like the fact they appear in
red
in my Bible) to be very profound and wise, and they reflect a philosophy
of
life which I try to follow.
Words such as the following, for example? --
"I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My
Father's name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe,
because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My
voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal
life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them
out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than
all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
I and My Father are one "
------------------
Kurt Nicklas
I don't find those as good as others. After all, most Christian theologians
have questions about who wrote the gospels and how they were changed, only a
small group thinks they are wholly accurate. Me, I focus on the spiritual
wisdom, not on the bits like above which can be interpreted many ways. But
since I think we all are one, in a deep, spiritual sense, the statement "I
and my father are one," is valid -- and all of us can make that same
statement.
You mentioned, earlier, that you thought that we are all "sons of God."
Jesus actually said something similar himself. He said, "My mother
and brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it." Are not
those who are siblings of Christ also "sons" of God? To hear (receive)
the word (will) of God and do (be) it. See? We can make that statement
only when we are being that statement.
It may sound buddhist, but much of Orthodox Christianity does. If we
are a "son of God" in the sense of the New Testament uses it, then we
are literally an incarnation of God. The Church just believes that
Christ was always that incarnation as a matter of essence (being the
second person of the Trinity), but we can be it as a matter of operation
(when we "hear the word of God and do it"). There was a great
demonstrative value in the life of Jesus, on that score.
Anyway, it is not my intent to preach. Or to proselytize. The former
only has slight value among the "already converted" -- and the latter is
at best irritating, and at worst rather destructive.
I just thought you might be interested to know that what you are saying
is actually a piece of pretty Traditional theology. The fact that the
more modern Western groups like Fundamentalists and Evangelicals have
forgotten this is merely an indication of the degree to which they have
moved away from Christianity.
Cheers,
- Joseph
--
"One should guard against preaching to young people success
in the customary form as the main aim in life. The most
important motive for work in school and in life is pleasure
in work, pleasure in its result, and the knowledge of the
value of the result to the rest of the community."
-- Albert Einstein
.
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| User: "Scott Erb" |
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| Title: Re: !Mel Gibson's New Film |
19 Aug 2003 06:46:22 PM |
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Thanks, interesting info. My wife is "officially" baptized in the Russian
orthodox church (which was rare when she was born, as communism frowned on
it). The more I learn, the better.
"Zaph'enath" <zaphenath@mirai.cx> wrote in message
news:SYCdnT7Y878zNt-iRVn-jw@speakeasy.net...
Scott Erb wrote:
"Kurt Nicklas" <kurtnicklas@aport2000.ru> wrote in message
news:81676ec2.0308170914.41d1bddf@posting.google.com...
"Scott Erb" <scotterb@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:<LQK%a.103491$0v4.7211130@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
"Michael Kellogg" <michael@kelloggs.org> wrote in message
news:Xns93D9EDA68EC84mk13579@199.45.49.11...
"Peacenik" wrote:
It's a great, original and unique concept. Let's hope that
unbelievers
don't force him to tell anything but The Truth.
The gospels make a great story, but they are only stories, not
reality.
Your opinion. Quite a few more people than you believe they are fact.
What makes you think they're fiction anyway?
I don't know about Peacenik, but I'll give you an answer.
I suspect (and no one can know for sure -- it depends on what you
believe)
they are a mix of fact and fiction.
I find the words associated with Jesus (I like the fact they appear in
red
in my Bible) to be very profound and wise, and they reflect a
philosophy
of
life which I try to follow.
Words such as the following, for example? --
"I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My
Father's name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe,
because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My
voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal
life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them
out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than
all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
I and My Father are one "
------------------
Kurt Nicklas
I don't find those as good as others. After all, most Christian
theologians
have questions about who wrote the gospels and how they were changed,
only a
small group thinks they are wholly accurate. Me, I focus on the
spiritual
wisdom, not on the bits like above which can be interpreted many ways.
But
since I think we all are one, in a deep, spiritual sense, the statement
"I
and my father are one," is valid -- and all of us can make that same
statement.
You mentioned, earlier, that you thought that we are all "sons of God."
Jesus actually said something similar himself. He said, "My mother
and brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it." Are not
those who are siblings of Christ also "sons" of God? To hear (receive)
the word (will) of God and do (be) it. See? We can make that statement
only when we are being that statement.
It may sound buddhist, but much of Orthodox Christianity does. If we
are a "son of God" in the sense of the New Testament uses it, then we
are literally an incarnation of God. The Church just believes that
Christ was always that incarnation as a matter of essence (being the
second person of the Trinity), but we can be it as a matter of operation
(when we "hear the word of God and do it"). There was a great
demonstrative value in the life of Jesus, on that score.
Anyway, it is not my intent to preach. Or to proselytize. The former
only has slight value among the "already converted" -- and the latter is
at best irritating, and at worst rather destructive.
I just thought you might be interested to know that what you are saying
is actually a piece of pretty Traditional theology. The fact that the
more modern Western groups like Fundamentalists and Evangelicals have
forgotten this is merely an indication of the degree to which they have
moved away from Christianity.
Cheers,
- Joseph
--
"One should guard against preaching to young people success
in the customary form as the main aim in life. The most
important motive for work in school and in life is pleasure
in work, pleasure in its result, and the knowledge of the
value of the result to the rest of the community."
-- Albert Einstein
.
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| User: "Al" |
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| Title: Re: !Mel Gibson's New Film |
20 Aug 2003 07:10:18 AM |
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"Scott Erb" <scotterb@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<iFy0b.106346$0v4.7469627@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
Thanks, interesting info. My wife is "officially" baptized in the Russian
orthodox church (which was rare when she was born, as communism frowned on
it). The more I learn, the better.
You can learn more through the links on my Orthodox web site:
http://aggreen.net/orth_links/orthlink.html
Al
.
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| User: "J.R." |
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| Title: Re: !Mel Gibson's New Film |
17 Aug 2003 12:20:03 PM |
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Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<b75vjvgcc3jgf5mvs0agbujgvgrdcsn6fm@4ax.com>...
On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 06:23:30 GMT, a wanderer, known to us only as
Michael Kellogg <michael@kelloggs.org> warmed at our fire and told
this tale:
Your opinion. Quite a few more people than you believe they are fact.
What makes you think they're fiction anyway?
They borrow from many older traditions, as does most of the Bible.
There is no direct, first-hand evidence to support the events in the
Gospels. And the four accepted Gospels are inconsistent with each
other, sometimes in glaring fashion. Add in the ones cut by the
Nicean Council, and the thing is a mish-mash of old myths,
misttributed stories, and things made up whole from the cloth.
In your sig. Ezekiel says God is against your pillow. That doesn't
mean that God hates pillows.
Ezekiel is telling you where God is. He's in your head. In your
imagination.
When Ezekiel went into a trance and had his visions, he thought it was
god, in his head.
.
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: !Mel Gibson's New Film |
17 Aug 2003 02:36:52 PM |
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On 17 Aug 2003 10:20:03 -0700, a wanderer, known to us only as
hey-joe@swbell.net (J.R.) warmed at our fire and told this tale:
Douglas Berry < > wrote in message news:<b75vjvgcc3jgf5mvs0agbujgvgrdcsn6fm@4ax.com>...
On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 06:23:30 GMT, a wanderer, known to us only as
Michael Kellogg <michael@kelloggs.org> warmed at our fire and told
this tale:
Your opinion. Quite a few more people than you believe they are fact.
What makes you think they're fiction anyway?
They borrow from many older traditions, as does most of the Bible.
There is no direct, first-hand evidence to support the events in the
Gospels. And the four accepted Gospels are inconsistent with each
other, sometimes in glaring fashion. Add in the ones cut by the
Nicean Council, and the thing is a mish-mash of old myths,
misttributed stories, and things made up whole from the cloth.
In your sig. Ezekiel says God is against your pillow. That doesn't
mean that God hates pillows.
Ezekiel is telling you where God is. He's in your head. In your
imagination.
13:18
And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew
pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every
stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will
ye save the souls alive that come unto you?
13:19
And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and
for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to
save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people
that hear your lies?
13:20
Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your
pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I
will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the
souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
13:21
Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your
hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye
shall know that I am the LORD.
I chose it because it is a very silly little rant.
When Ezekiel went into a trance and had his visions, he thought it was
god, in his head.
When people hear voices in their head, it is schizophrenia
--
Douglas Berry
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus saith the
Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows"
.
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| User: "J.R." |
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| Title: Re: !Mel Gibson's New Film |
19 Aug 2003 12:07:08 AM |
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Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<g8mvjvopjet2nm4qaps92epfuh6k0pve09@4ax.com>...
On 17 Aug 2003 10:20:03 -0700, a wanderer, known to us only as
hey-joe@swbell.net (J.R.) warmed at our fire and told this tale:
Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<b75vjvgcc3jgf5mvs0agbujgvgrdcsn6fm@4ax.com>...
On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 06:23:30 GMT, a wanderer, known to us only as
Michael Kellogg <michael@kelloggs.org> warmed at our fire and told
this tale:
Your opinion. Quite a few more people than you believe they are fact.
What makes you think they're fiction anyway?
They borrow from many older traditions, as does most of the Bible.
There is no direct, first-hand evidence to support the events in the
Gospels. And the four accepted Gospels are inconsistent with each
other, sometimes in glaring fashion. Add in the ones cut by the
Nicean Council, and the thing is a mish-mash of old myths,
misttributed stories, and things made up whole from the cloth.
In your sig. Ezekiel says God is against your pillow. That doesn't
mean that God hates pillows.
Ezekiel is telling you where God is. He's in your head. In your
imagination.
13:18
And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew
pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every
stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will
ye save the souls alive that come unto you?
13:19
And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and
for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to
save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people
that hear your lies?
13:20
Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your
pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I
will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the
souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
13:21
Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your
hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye
shall know that I am the LORD.
I chose it because it is a very silly little rant.
When Ezekiel went into a trance and had his visions, he thought it was
god, in his head.
When people hear voices in their head, it is schizophrenia
You are right. Anybody that would hear hear a voice telling them that
it was going to tear up their handkerchief, certainly needs to have it
recorded for all history.
.
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| User: "PJB" |
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| Title: Re: !Mel Gibson's New Film |
17 Aug 2003 11:20:03 AM |
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Michael Kellogg <michael@kelloggs.org> wrote in message news:<Xns93D9EDA68EC84mk13579@199.45.49.11>...
"Peacenik" wrote:
It's a great, original and unique concept. Let's hope that unbelievers
don't force him to tell anything but The Truth.
The gospels make a great story, but they are only stories, not reality.
Your opinion. Quite a few more people than you believe they are fact.
What makes you think they're fiction anyway?
Quite a few people believe The Koran is fact as well. Why do you
believe it is fiction anyway?
.
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| User: "Zaphenath" |
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| Title: Re: !Mel Gibson's New Film |
19 Aug 2003 06:10:36 PM |
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PJB wrote:
Michael Kellogg <michael@kelloggs.org> wrote in message news:<Xns93D9EDA68EC84mk13579@199.45.49.11>...
"Peacenik" wrote:
It's a great, original and unique concept. Let's hope that unbelievers
don't force him to tell anything but The Truth.
The gospels make a great story, but they are only stories, not reality.
Your opinion. Quite a few more people than you believe they are fact.
What makes you think they're fiction anyway?
Quite a few people believe The Koran is fact as well. Why do you
believe it is fiction anyway?
I can't speak for Michael Kellogg, but "Peacenik" declared his opinion
about the veracity of the New Testament as an objective *fact* to which
someone must reasonably admit. He did not merely state his opinion as
such. Mr. Kellogg merely mentioned that a number of people see it
otherwise, and rather politely asked what reasons Peacenik had for
believeing as he did. Which was nice, since implicit in Peacenik's
comment was the suggestion that it was somehow a plainly obvious fact,
which needs no explanation.
Remember, people, when arguing with a fundamentalist like (name
omitted), not to resort to lazy and dishonest argumentation. As fun as
it may be to see them squirm around, it does nothing positive for
whatever point you are trying to make. Also, it makes you look
disingenuous to the non-fundamentalists who may, nevertheless, not see
eye to eye with you on one or a few subjects.
Just my $0.02 worth,
- Joseph
--
"One should guard against preaching to young people success
in the customary form as the main aim in life. The most
important motive for work in school and in life is pleasure
in work, pleasure in its result, and the knowledge of the
value of the result to the rest of the community."
-- Albert Einstein
.
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