Religions > Atheism > Re: My mysticism is better than your mysticism -- Self Defense Seminars Will Get You Killed In A Real Attack On The Street
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"= Vox Populi©" |
| Date: |
27 Nov 2006 09:50:44 AM |
| Object: |
Re: My mysticism is better than your mysticism -- Self Defense Seminars Will Get You Killed In A Real Attack On The Street |
wrote:
What's sad is fact that there are folks out there whipping out their
credit cards thinking this is the *****.
Jealous, aren't you?
I don't care what anyone
says.....nothing is better than 1-on-1, hands-on instruction. Most
people can't learn from a DVD, video.
And the guy's laughing all the way to the bank. But hey, that's
capitalism.
Yep, your envy is showing again.
'Tis the holiday season, so everyone here should remind their loved
ones that crime spikes during this time of year. Be careful, be smart
while shopping and partying.
Be afriad ... be very afraid.
.
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| User: "= Vox Populi©" |
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| Title: Re: My mysticism is better than your mysticism -- Self Defense Seminars Will Get You Killed In A Real Attack On The Street |
05 Dec 2006 10:26:11 AM |
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Anatabaka wrote:
<caterbro@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1165294912.082896.24170@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Anatabaka wrote:
I'm not sure how you got "goal oriented martial arts student -
commodity, trophy rack for the wall" etc from what I posted.
context of the discussion, hence my comment on your apostasy-
Okay fair enough....the context of the thread.....but not my
particular post I hope. I'm in favor of no such thing......
As to my apostasy.....the term relates to a loss of faith or
renunciation of a prior held faith......not the acceptance of goal
oriented, commodity based martial training.
i b'leive the propsition was 'labor towards the aim', in which case,
they might as well be.
carl
To which I repeat........it depends upon the aim. Labor alone is
extremely limited in what it can achieve....unless or until it is
applied within a system designed by intellect to utilize and direct
it.
Labor alone (mindless labor)....undirected by intellect is not even
sufficient to move a pile of stones from one place to another (since
in truth some level of intellect, however primitive, is necessary for
even this much....for it is the intellect that grasps such concepts as
"stones"....thereby distinguishing them from other objects......and
"moving" the "pile" from one "place" to another.) But I'll stipulate
for purposes of debate that we can call something as simple as moving
a pile of stones "mindless labor". Thus if simply moving a pile of
of stones from one location to another is your aim then your point is
taken in a limited sense.
But the moment you desire to do more than this.......then you will
need something other than mere labor. Namely the guidance of your
intellect applied to your labor.
Let's say you desire to build a cathedral with those same stones. No
amount of your mindless labor alone will be sufficient to achieve
your aim.
Heisenberg and Quantum Theory says otherwise.
To believe so is to ignore the role of intellect in the
creation of such things as cathedrals.
The Universe proves you wrong.
Yes, the achievement of your cathedral will certianly require your
labor........I'm simply
illustrating that the intellect necessary to design your cathedral
and direct your labor toward the end result is distinct in and of
itself. And it is the efficacy of your intellect (applied to your
labor) that will determine the efficacy of your labor and quality of
its outcome. Without your intellect no amount of your raw labor will
be sufficient to achieve your aim.
It's in this sense that I distinguish intellect from mere mere labor
and reject the assertion that labor and intellect are the same.
Though you have at least one supporter in Carl Marx I suppose..... :-)
A.A.
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| User: "Anatabaka" |
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| Title: Re: My mysticism is better than your mysticism -- Self Defense Seminars Will Get You Killed In A Real Attack On The Street |
05 Dec 2006 11:11:46 AM |
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"=> Vox Populi©" <vox@popu.li> wrote in message
news:45759da6$0$3569$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
Anatabaka wrote:
<caterbro@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1165294912.082896.24170@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Anatabaka wrote:
I'm not sure how you got "goal oriented martial arts student -
commodity, trophy rack for the wall" etc from what I posted.
context of the discussion, hence my comment on your apostasy-
Okay fair enough....the context of the thread.....but not my
particular post I hope. I'm in favor of no such thing......
As to my apostasy.....the term relates to a loss of faith or
renunciation of a prior held faith......not the acceptance of goal
oriented, commodity based martial training.
i b'leive the propsition was 'labor towards the aim', in which case,
they might as well be.
carl
To which I repeat........it depends upon the aim. Labor alone is
extremely limited in what it can achieve....unless or until it is
applied within a system designed by intellect to utilize and direct
it.
Labor alone (mindless labor)....undirected by intellect is not even
sufficient to move a pile of stones from one place to another (since
in truth some level of intellect, however primitive, is necessary for
even this much....for it is the intellect that grasps such concepts as
"stones"....thereby distinguishing them from other objects......and
"moving" the "pile" from one "place" to another.) But I'll stipulate
for purposes of debate that we can call something as simple as moving
a pile of stones "mindless labor". Thus if simply moving a pile of
of stones from one location to another is your aim then your point is
taken in a limited sense.
But the moment you desire to do more than this.......then you will
need something other than mere labor. Namely the guidance of your
intellect applied to your labor.
Let's say you desire to build a cathedral with those same stones. No
amount of your mindless labor alone will be sufficient to achieve
your aim.
Heisenberg and Quantum Theory says otherwise.
Ummm....not really. Not if you mean to say that quantum theory suggests a
man-made cathedral can be brought into existence without the direction of
human intellect. Quantum Theory suggests no such thing......quantum
quackery perhaps.....but quantum theory?? I'm afraid not.
To believe so is to ignore the role of intellect in the
creation of such things as cathedrals.
The Universe proves you wrong.
How so? Show me an actual cathedral....stained glass and all.....that has
ever been created without the direction of human intellect.
You cannot......so long as you confine yourself to using the term
"cathedral" in the same sense that I've used it of course. I've used the
term somewhat deliberately in refernce to the man-made structures of a
specific style and purpose known as "cathedrals".....and would not accept
the substitution of some natural formation that merely resembles or
"suggests" such a structure.
I am wholly unaware of any such structure ever being spontaneously created
by the mindless forces of nature.
So how, pray tell, does the uiverse prove me wrong?
A.A.
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| User: "= Vox Populi©" |
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| Title: Re: My mysticism is better than your mysticism -- Self Defense Seminars Will Get You Killed In A Real Attack On The Street |
05 Dec 2006 01:24:03 PM |
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Anatabaka wrote:
"=> Vox Populi©" <vox@popu.li> wrote in message
news:45759da6$0$3569$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
Anatabaka wrote:
<caterbro@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1165294912.082896.24170@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Anatabaka wrote:
I'm not sure how you got "goal oriented martial arts student -
commodity, trophy rack for the wall" etc from what I posted.
context of the discussion, hence my comment on your apostasy-
Okay fair enough....the context of the thread.....but not my
particular post I hope. I'm in favor of no such thing......
As to my apostasy.....the term relates to a loss of faith or
renunciation of a prior held faith......not the acceptance of goal
oriented, commodity based martial training.
i b'leive the propsition was 'labor towards the aim', in which
case, they might as well be.
carl
To which I repeat........it depends upon the aim. Labor alone is
extremely limited in what it can achieve....unless or until it is
applied within a system designed by intellect to utilize and direct
it.
Labor alone (mindless labor)....undirected by intellect is not even
sufficient to move a pile of stones from one place to another (since
in truth some level of intellect, however primitive, is necessary
for even this much....for it is the intellect that grasps such
concepts as "stones"....thereby distinguishing them from other
objects......and "moving" the "pile" from one "place" to another.) But I'll
stipulate for purposes of debate that we can call
something as simple as moving a pile of stones "mindless labor". Thus if
simply moving a pile of of stones from one location to
another is your aim then your point is taken in a limited sense.
But the moment you desire to do more than this.......then you will
need something other than mere labor. Namely the guidance of your
intellect applied to your labor.
Let's say you desire to build a cathedral with those same stones. No amount
of your mindless labor alone will be sufficient to achieve
your aim.
Heisenberg and Quantum Theory says otherwise.
Ummm....not really. Not if you mean to say that quantum theory
suggests a man-made cathedral can be brought into existence without
the direction of human intellect. Quantum Theory suggests no such
thing......quantum quackery perhaps.....but quantum theory?? I'm
afraid not.
"50,000 monkeys at 50,000 typewriters can't be wrong."
To believe so is to ignore the role of intellect in the
creation of such things as cathedrals.
The Universe proves you wrong.
How so? Show me an actual cathedral....stained glass and
all.....that has ever been created without the direction of human
intellect.
Is the Universe itself not a grand cathedral ...?
You cannot......so long as you confine yourself to using the term
"cathedral" in the same sense that I've used it of course. I've used
the term somewhat deliberately in refernce to the man-made structures
of a specific style and purpose known as "cathedrals".....and would
not accept the substitution of some natural formation that merely
resembles or "suggests" such a structure.
Nice weasel.
I am wholly unaware of any such structure ever being spontaneously
created by the mindless forces of nature.
Never been to Utah, eh?
So how, pray tell, does the uiverse prove me wrong?
Ibid.
A.A.
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| User: "Anatabaka" |
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| Title: Re: My mysticism is better than your mysticism -- Self Defense Seminars Will Get You Killed In A Real Attack On The Street |
05 Dec 2006 02:35:57 PM |
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"=> Vox Populi©" <vox@popu.li> wrote in message
news:4575c756$0$3578$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
Anatabaka wrote:
"=> Vox Populi©" <vox@popu.li> wrote in message
news:45759da6$0$3569$815e3792@news.qwest.net...
Anatabaka wrote:
<caterbro@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1165294912.082896.24170@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Anatabaka wrote:
I'm not sure how you got "goal oriented martial arts student -
commodity, trophy rack for the wall" etc from what I posted.
context of the discussion, hence my comment on your apostasy-
Okay fair enough....the context of the thread.....but not my
particular post I hope. I'm in favor of no such thing......
As to my apostasy.....the term relates to a loss of faith or
renunciation of a prior held faith......not the acceptance of goal
oriented, commodity based martial training.
i b'leive the propsition was 'labor towards the aim', in which
case, they might as well be.
carl
To which I repeat........it depends upon the aim. Labor alone is
extremely limited in what it can achieve....unless or until it is
applied within a system designed by intellect to utilize and direct
it.
Labor alone (mindless labor)....undirected by intellect is not even
sufficient to move a pile of stones from one place to another (since
in truth some level of intellect, however primitive, is necessary
for even this much....for it is the intellect that grasps such
concepts as "stones"....thereby distinguishing them from other
objects......and "moving" the "pile" from one "place" to another.) But
I'll stipulate for purposes of debate that we can call
something as simple as moving a pile of stones "mindless labor". Thus
if simply moving a pile of of stones from one location to
another is your aim then your point is taken in a limited sense.
But the moment you desire to do more than this.......then you will
need something other than mere labor. Namely the guidance of your
intellect applied to your labor.
Let's say you desire to build a cathedral with those same stones. No
amount of your mindless labor alone will be sufficient to achieve
your aim.
Heisenberg and Quantum Theory says otherwise.
Ummm....not really. Not if you mean to say that quantum theory
suggests a man-made cathedral can be brought into existence without
the direction of human intellect. Quantum Theory suggests no such
thing......quantum quackery perhaps.....but quantum theory?? I'm
afraid not.
"50,000 monkeys at 50,000 typewriters can't be wrong."
Hah!!! Point taken!! But I said "cathedral" not "the combined works of
Shakespear" ;-)
To believe so is to ignore the role of intellect in the
creation of such things as cathedrals.
The Universe proves you wrong.
How so? Show me an actual cathedral....stained glass and
all.....that has ever been created without the direction of human
intellect.
Is the Universe itself not a grand cathedral ...?
Read the following......so long as you confine yourself to using the term
"cathedral" in the same context that I've used it of course. I've used
the term somewhat deliberately in refernce to the man-made structures
of a specific style and purpose known as "cathedrals".....and would
not accept the substitution of some natural formation that merely
resembles or "suggests" such a structure.
Nice weasel.
On who's part, mine our yours?
I am wholly unaware of any such structure ever being spontaneously
created by the mindless forces of nature.
Never been to Utah, eh?
Sure I've been to Utah.....used to guide bicycle tours all over that state.
I've never seen an example of natural forces producing a cathedral there
though.......impressive natural structures that suggest cathedrals
sure.....but not actual cathedrals.......why? Have you?? :-) (Surely you
are familiar with the "true Scotsman" fallacy? It's a fallacy based on
ambiguity and the deliberate shifting of terms.....I think you may be guilty
:-)
So how, pray tell, does the uiverse prove me wrong?
Ibid.
I repeat the question of course......
Vox, the point you are trying to make may seem a good one (if I've
understood it correctly) but it can only be advanced by engaging in a
healthy dose of context-dropping and/or equivocation.
Caterbro used a couple of terms like "labor" and "aim" which are of
particular contextual importance to the discussion. Moreover they were used
within the broader context of a discussion on human goal-oreinted behavior.
It's only by dropping that context that you can advance your assertion that
the mindless physical processes which produced Bryce/Zion or Cedar Breaks in
Utah stand as a rebuttal to my argument. I've never suggested that nothing
happens without intellect. I've merely asserted that in the realm of human
goal direct behavior, intellect is necessary to direct our efforts if we
wish them to be efficatious to our aims.
I don't wholly disagree with Catebro's point that we don't seem to be able
to get "better" at anything without work......but I DO dispute his failure
to distinguish between intellectual knowledge and physical labor by calling
them "functionally the same".
While I certianly do accept that physical labor and the role of our
intellect can be so integrated as to give the appearance of functional
sameness, there comes to mind any number of examples where human effort is
divorced from our intellectual knowledge and is therefore destructive of our
aims. Humans often engage in effort that is counter productive to their
aims and labor in ways that contradict their intellectual knowledge. This
is possible only because intellect and labor are in fact distinct things
that operate independantly however dependant they may be on one another. It
is only the degree to which our intellect is integrated with our efforts
that determines the efficacy of our labor.....resulting in their apparent
"functional sameness".
That being said......the Universe is indeed a rather wonderful and grand
cathedral. :-)
A.A.
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| User: "Aiki Apostate" |
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| Title: Re: My mysticism is better than your mysticism -- Self Defense Seminars Will Get You Killed In A Real Attack On The Street |
06 Dec 2006 08:16:25 PM |
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All that being said......I'm way way way off topic so I'll cease and desist
with apologies.
A.A.
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| User: "conrad linde" |
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| Title: Re: My mysticism is better than your mysticism -- Self DefenseSeminars Will Get You Killed In A Real Attack On The Street |
07 Dec 2006 09:32:13 AM |
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Wondering what is better jiu jitsu or aikido. I hear aikido guys get
pwned by jiu jitsu. Jiu jitsu is for fighting and aikido is mysticism or
something...
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| User: "Steve" |
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| Title: Re: My mysticism is better than your mysticism -- Self DefenseSeminars Will Get You Killed In A Real Attack On The Street |
07 Dec 2006 01:51:55 PM |
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"conrad linde" <conrad-linde@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1165505533.7866.3.camel@Dune...
| Wondering what is better jiu jitsu or aikido. I hear aikido guys get
| pwned by jiu jitsu. Jiu jitsu is for fighting and aikido is mysticism or
| something...
better for what?
jiu jitsu (jujutsu) and aikido are related. aikido has a different
philosophy of fighting than jj. a person has mastered aikido when he has
neutralized a threat, or threats, and no one became been injured in the
process. both however, being birthed in japan, share budhist influences. jiu
jitsu was developed first, it branched/forked and aikido was a leaf of that
branch. judo is another leaf and is the least lethal of either such that it
could be employed as sport.
some one asked me once, 'what is the best knife to have/use when you're
being assaulted'. the answer is, the one that you have in your hand when you
need it. jj and akd are great and have different purposes. jj, in armed
combat, is not my first pick as a combat system...neither is akd. tae kwon
do being used as self defense whilst the practitioner is in three feet of
mud and water in a rice patty in south east asia is not a very hearty
defense system either. put any art in the context of where it originated and
what its purpose was/is, and you'll have an idea of the effectiveness of
that art. out of context, and you can see shortcomings quickly...such as a
shoot-wrestler diving for the legs, head down, of a knife-wielding opponent.
so, 'better for what' remains the question.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: My mysticism is better than your mysticism -- Self Defense Seminars Will Get You Killed In A Real Attack On The Street |
07 Dec 2006 02:17:02 PM |
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On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:32:13 GMT, conrad linde
<conrad-linde@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
Wondering what is better jiu jitsu or aikido. I hear aikido guys get
pwned by jiu jitsu. Jiu jitsu is for fighting and aikido is mysticism or
something...
Try tai chi.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"To assume the existence of an unperceivable being ... does not facilitate understanding
the orderliness we find in the perceivable world."
- Letter to an Iowa student who asked, What is God? July, 1953; Einstein Archive 59-085
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: My mysticism is better than your mysticism -- Self Defense Seminars Will Get You Killed In A Real Attack On The Street |
07 Dec 2006 09:54:05 AM |
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On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:32:13 GMT, conrad linde wrote in message
<1165505533.7866.3.camel@Dune>:
Wondering what is better jiu jitsu or aikido. I hear aikido guys get
pwned by jiu jitsu. Jiu jitsu is for fighting and aikido is mysticism or
something...
Sumo. And the training programme is very tasty as well.
--
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".
attrib: Pauline Réage.
-
www.eac-nudis.com = Evil Atheist Conspiracy NNTP / Usenet Distributed Intelligence System...
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