| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"George Ricker" |
| Date: |
05 Jun 2006 11:50:24 AM |
| Object: |
Re: Nailing an Atheist Down |
"Jack" <cawo...@gmail.com> wrote:
George Ricker wrote:
In article <1149260388.497533.312...@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
"Jack" <cawo...@gmail.com> wrote:
<SNIP>
If the Bible is a lie - you *may* have no worries. If it's true you're
best bet is to believe.
And what if the Bible is, as most of the available evidence suggests, a
collection of myths, fables and stories written by human beings in an
effort to explain themselves to themselves? What if the Bible is wholly
fiction with a patina of fact thrown in to suggest credibility? What if
the Bible's real value is as a repository of early ideas about gods and
men that help us to understand the evolution of our human socities?
A claim that the Bible is literally true simply can't be sustained by
anyone who approaches the matter with intellectual honesty. That doesn't
mean the books of the Bible don't contain anything of value. It does
mean that the notion it contains the *absolute* truth about human
existence as presented by some *absolute* being can only be regarded as
nonsense.
It's also more than a little self-serving to claim you have identified
the *truth* about either gods or men in a book that has lent itself to
all sorts of interpretations on both subjects throughout much of human
history. The messages found in the Bible depend just as much, it seems
to me, on what one is looking for as on what is written there.
And we haven't even talked about which version of the Bible you're
referencing.
The Bible is a collection of stories, mythic histories, some poetry and
some letters. It contains both truths and lies. What it doesn't contain
is *The Truth.*
C'mon Jack. Do you really think a supreme being worthy of the name would
have been unable to communicate articulately? Do you really think it
would have left itself so open to misinterpretation that wars would be
fought over variant readings of the writings ascribed to it? Do you
really think a "God" who was moral and good could send the overwhelming
majority of humankind to spend eternity in everlasting torment because
they rejected such a flawed product?
Do you? Really?
--
George Ricker
Hi George
Now that's an argument which is worth investigating - is the Bible
truth? Is it inarticulate? My naive assumption when starting this post
was that most atheists were so-called "strong atheists" and had valid
reasons for rejecting God and the Bible. This would have been a great
basis for some discussion but we've got a mix of the strong and the
weak here which boggles the mind.
Sorry it took so long to get back to this. I was off doing other things.
What does strong/weak atheism have to do with my post? You made a claim
about the Bible. I suggested alternatives and asked some questions that
would be relevant to the subject whether I believe in a deity or not.
What I have decided to do is to attempt to answer both the strong and
the weak and am preparing some thoughts on this.
Again ... so what?
To answer your question: if the Bible were proved to be a lie tomorrow
I would indeed be shaken. What would however remain are the experiences
I have of God and those told to me by fellow believers. When you
believe you experience a spiritual awakening which opens your eyes to
your world in a way which is indescribable unless you have experienced
it. I therefore focus on the only objective evidence we have which is
the Bible.
So what you are saying is that you believe in the Bible because you
believe in the Bible. Back in the days when I was a practicing
Christian, I had spiritual experiences that I described at the time as
transcendant. That was the language I used in sermons I preached and in
private conversations with other believers and potential converts.
I was mistaken. I was practicing a kind of self deception that was only
made possible by suspending any disbelief in the god-idea and the holy
book of my religion and turning a blind eye and deaf ear to anything
that might challenge either of them.
My point here is that you shouldn't assume none of the atheists who post
on this board are unfamiliar with the sort of *spiritual* experiences
you describe. We outgrew them. Maybe you will too.
But how can you describe the Bible as "objective evidence" of anything?
It's not objective, and it offers nothing that could be considered as
evidence for any of the supernatural claims made in it.
You asked which version I use: I mostly use the Holy Bible from the
Gideons and sometimes the Good News Bible depending on where I am. When
writing however, I find it convenient to use software which contains 18
versions of the Bible and 22 commentries & references.
Now, I am not an expert on the Bible, nor it's origins. All I can say
is that it is a remarkable book in itself. I read a lot and have many
favorite books but the Bible is special. I also used to think that it
was unecessarily vague and boring until I really started studying it.
Like many things, there is more than meets the eye. It's not something
that could have been invented by man.
Actually I didn't ask which version of the Bible you use. What I asked
you was how you could possibly think that a collection of stories
susceptible to such varied interepretations that wars have been fought
over the differences could be the product of a divine intelligence.
Apparently you either don't understand the question or prefer to dodge
it? Did you understand the question?
I hope, in the course of time to be able to present more on this topic.
For now I am working on answering some fundamental objections to theism
on two fronts: weak and strong atheism.
Jack
I can hardly wait.
--
George Ricker
"Godless in America" by George Ricker is now available at
online book sellers, like amazon.com, and most book retailers.
Go to http://www.godlessinamerica.com for more information.
.
|
|
| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: Nailing an Atheist Down |
06 Jun 2006 12:34:56 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 05 Jun 2006 16:50:24 GMT, George Ricker
<gSPAMFREEricker@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
:
My point here is that you shouldn't assume none of the atheists who post
on this board are unfamiliar with the sort of *spiritual* experiences
you describe. We outgrew them. Maybe you will too.
:
On the contrary, I experience "transcendent" moments every time I
contemplate the vastness of the universe, as revealed by science, or
the weird minutiae of Quantum Mechanics.
These things fill me with an awe that I would call "spiritual" if it
were not open to misinterpretation and manipulation by those with a
theist agendum.
(I simply don't feel the need to invent some sort of dead super-parent
delusional to make me feel better about it.)
I hope that I never grow out of these literrally awesome feelings.
--
Michael Gray.
Founding Member and Doorman,
Earthquack's 666 Club.
EAC Apprentice Thumbscrew Oiler.
.
|
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|
| User: "George Ricker" |
|
| Title: Re: Nailing an Atheist Down |
06 Jun 2006 06:07:34 AM |
|
|
In article <9m4a82tg15c3q79mp87ujr3tspj2t9sd6d@4ax.com>,
Michael Gray <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote:
On Mon, 05 Jun 2006 16:50:24 GMT, George Ricker
<gSPAMFREEricker@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
:
My point here is that you shouldn't assume none of the atheists who post
on this board are unfamiliar with the sort of *spiritual* experiences
you describe. We outgrew them. Maybe you will too.
:
On the contrary, I experience "transcendent" moments every time I
contemplate the vastness of the universe, as revealed by science, or
the weird minutiae of Quantum Mechanics.
These things fill me with an awe that I would call "spiritual" if it
were not open to misinterpretation and manipulation by those with a
theist agendum.
(I simply don't feel the need to invent some sort of dead super-parent
delusional to make me feel better about it.)
I hope that I never grow out of these literrally awesome feelings.
--
Michael Gray.
Founding Member and Doorman,
Earthquack's 666 Club.
EAC Apprentice Thumbscrew Oiler.
As I thought was clear in the context of the entire post, the sort of
*spiritual* experiences at issue were those of a religious nature and my
reference was to the familiarity of those who are now atheists but once
were religioius with that terrain.
Certainly, many of us experience transcendant moments when we
contemplate the natural world, science, art and so on. Those feelings
contribute a joy that fuels human existence. Like you, I hope never to
outgrow them.
--
George Ricker
"Godless in America" by George Ricker is now available at
online book sellers, like amazon.com, and most book retailers.
Go to http://www.godlessinamerica.com for more information.
.
|
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|
| User: "wbarwell" |
|
| Title: Re: Nailing an Atheist Down |
06 Jun 2006 04:42:12 AM |
|
|
Michael Gray wrote:
On Mon, 05 Jun 2006 16:50:24 GMT, George Ricker
<gSPAMFREEricker@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
:
My point here is that you shouldn't assume none of the atheists who post
on this board are unfamiliar with the sort of *spiritual* experiences
you describe. We outgrew them. Maybe you will too.
:
On the contrary, I experience "transcendent" moments every time I
contemplate the vastness of the universe, as revealed by science, or
the weird minutiae of Quantum Mechanics.
These things fill me with an awe that I would call "spiritual" if it
were not open to misinterpretation and manipulation by those with a
theist agendum.
(I simply don't feel the need to invent some sort of dead super-parent
delusional to make me feel better about it.)
I hope that I never grow out of these literrally awesome feelings.
Same here. I feel a real sense of amazing joy when I see
that somewhere another great piece of the puzzle is nailed down.
I have grown plants my entire life and enjoy botany and when I look
over a landscape I see it in ways few people not knowledge about evolution
and botany and life in general will see it. It can be humbling to know that
a vast sea of life is but a tiny step in an every changing world of immense
age and complexity. I hate creationism because it is by comparions, tenth
rate. And the creationists cheat their children of true spirituality for
bronze age tall tales. I am always delighted by physics, I was awed when I
read that the Casamir effect had been tested in the lab and was within 5%
of the value Casamir had calculated from first principles in 1938.
Amazingly, Hubble and others discovery the Universe is expanding was only
made about 1917, the big bang was predicted in the early 40's and now we
have telescopes peering almost to the edge of creation. Amazing progress
in 100 years, more than all history before.
I hate the idea that spirituality is some fool grinning vacantly, going gaga
over some idiot tall tale while far greater can be had.
That is not spirituality, its superstition.
--
"Its the hit dog what yelps."
- Mark Twain
Cheerful Charlie
.
|
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: Nailing an Atheist Down |
06 Jun 2006 06:35:26 AM |
|
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On Tue, 06 Jun 2006 04:42:12 -0500, wbarwell <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <128aj38t0ijn895@corp.supernews.com>
Michael Gray wrote:
On Mon, 05 Jun 2006 16:50:24 GMT, George Ricker
<gSPAMFREEricker@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
:
My point here is that you shouldn't assume none of the atheists who post
on this board are unfamiliar with the sort of *spiritual* experiences
you describe. We outgrew them. Maybe you will too.
:
On the contrary, I experience "transcendent" moments every time I
contemplate the vastness of the universe, as revealed by science, or
the weird minutiae of Quantum Mechanics.
These things fill me with an awe that I would call "spiritual" if it
were not open to misinterpretation and manipulation by those with a
theist agendum.
(I simply don't feel the need to invent some sort of dead super-parent
delusional to make me feel better about it.)
I hope that I never grow out of these literrally awesome feelings.
Same here. I feel a real sense of amazing joy when I see
that somewhere another great piece of the puzzle is nailed down.
I have grown plants my entire life and enjoy botany and when I look
over a landscape I see it in ways few people not knowledge about evolution
and botany and life in general will see it. It can be humbling to know that
a vast sea of life is but a tiny step in an every changing world of immense
age and complexity. I hate creationism because it is by comparions, tenth
rate. And the creationists cheat their children of true spirituality for
bronze age tall tales. I am always delighted by physics, I was awed when I
read that the Casamir effect had been tested in the lab and was within 5%
of the value Casamir had calculated from first principles in 1938.
Amazingly, Hubble and others discovery the Universe is expanding was only
made about 1917, the big bang was predicted in the early 40's and now we
have telescopes peering almost to the edge of creation. Amazing progress
in 100 years, more than all history before.
I hate the idea that spirituality is some fool grinning vacantly, going gaga
over some idiot tall tale while far greater can be had.
That is not spirituality, its superstition.
By comparison to the splendour that science reaveals, their gods are
puny, pathetic and mentally crippling, and as far from "awesome" as it
is possible to be.
--
Michael Gray.
Founding Member and Doorman,
Earthquack's 666 Club.
EAC Apprentice Thumbscrew Oiler.
.
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