Religions > Atheism > Re: Nativity displays tangled in legalities; article fails 10th Amendment test, vague constitutional reference
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
19 Dec 2005 01:57:01 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Nativity displays tangled in legalities; article fails 10th Amendment test, vague constitutional reference |
"fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:
:|I stand by my statement concerning your baseless assertion about the
:|10th Amendment.
:|
:|>
:|Again, you're perverting logic by stubbornly refusing to accept that
:|the 10th automatically reserved the power to legislate religion to the
:|States since the 1st Amendment explicitly prohibited this power only to
:|Congress (federal government; aka United States) and no amendment
:|explicitly prohibited the power to legislate religion to the States.
:|
:|>
:|"Article 14, section 1: All persons born or naturalized in the United
:|States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the
:|United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make
:|or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of
:|citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person
:|of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to
:|any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
:|
:|You ignore that, unlike the 1st Amendment which explicitly prohibits
:|Congress from making certain kinds of laws, religious laws for example,
:|section 1 of the 14th actually puts a general on all the laws that the
:|States can make; the 14th doesn't even mention religion. Justice Reed
:|described the checks and balance relationships between the 1st, 10th
:|and 14th Amendments.
:|
:|"Conflicts in the exercise of rights arise and the conflicting forces
:|seek adjustments in the courts, as do these parties, claiming on the
:|one side the freedom of religion, speech and the press, guaranteed by
:|the Fourteenth Amendment, and on the other the right to employ the
:|sovereign power explicitly reserved to the State by the Tenth Amendment
:|to ensure orderly living without which constitutional guarantees of
:|civil liberties would be a mockery." --Justice Reed, Jones v. City of
:|Opelika 1942
:|
:|The States have the constitutional power (10th) to authorize public
:|schools to lead non-mandatory (14th) classroom discussions about the
:|pros and cons of evolution, creationism and irreducible complexity, for
:|example, regardless that anti-religious expression Justices and the
:|liberal press have misled the American people to think that doing so is
:|unconstitutional.
:|
:|In fact, I disagree with Jefferson's note concerning religion classes
:|being deemed requisite:
:|
:|"Thus we have teachers of languages, teachers of mathematics, of
:|natural philosophy, of chemistry, of medicine, of law, of history, of
:|government, etc. Religion, too, is a separate department, and happens
:|to be the only one deemed requisite for all men, however high or low."
:|--Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815.
:|
:|> >
Radicals in Robes (insignt into fred )
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.democrats.d/msg/c361b42ef2cf861d?hl=en&
Your shorter link is: http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q3225275C
******************************************************************************************
Evidence that shoots down just about every bit of fred's propaganda
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.society.liberalism/msg/290a32cf157dec89?hl=en&
http://makeashorterlink.com/?R2651235C
Topics covered in the above that shoot downs fred's propaganda:
Differentiating the Free Exercise and Establishment Clauses
*************************************************************************
James Madison on Separation of Church and State
Direct references to separation to be found in the writings of James
Madison
**************************************************************************
What legal standing did the Kentucky Resolutions have?
Hint: none!!!!!!!!
***********************************************************************
Meet another theocrat Meet Alan L. Keyes
Home site
------------------------------------
Religious Liberty as defined by him (alan Keyes)
------------------------------------
Alan Keyes / Alan Dershowitz
Does Organized Religion Hold Answers to the Problems of the 21st Century?
Debate, September 27, 2000
-------------------------------------
Alan Keyes vs
On the establishment of religion: What the Constitution really says
August 26, 2003
-------------------------------------------
Alans Keyes Positions on Particular Issues
***************************************************************************
Comments by Bob LeChevalier (alt.education guy fred wants to avoid)
****************************************************************************
ESTABLISHMENT CLAUSE:, EVERSON & FOOTNOTES TO EVERSON
****************************************************************************
some commentary by Adenoid-Hin
Christ sake fred
"Essays" aren't law.
Citizens are afforded equal protection of law.
States cannot address constitutional questions that affect ALL
citizens and "interpretations" other than the USSC are bogus.
Government (state, local, federal) cannot set up, endorse, promote,
pander to, wink at, or in any way favor religious stupidity as policy.
Whether "Jefferson said" so or not, the interpretaton by the USSC (the
ONLY entity allowed to do so) has established that doctrine
generations ago.
Offering "essays", "writings", or other non-relevant, extraneous crap
won't alter the fact.
***********************************************************
The Nineteenth Century Supreme Court and “Republican Protestantism”
************************************************************
The Tenth Amendment was altered so that it really isn't as clear as many
people seem to think
(1) THE TENTH AMENDMENT
(2) THE BILL OF RIGHTS & THE TENTH AMENDMENT,
(3) THERE HAVE BEEN ATTEMPTS TO UNDERMINE WHAT THE FOUNDERS PASSED BY
ADDING THE WORD EXPRESSLY TO THE TENTH AMENDMENT: THE BATTLE OVER THE TENTH
AMENDMENT: OPENING A SECOND FRONT
************************************************************
Amend. To improve. To change for the better by
removing defects or faults. To change, correct,
revise. See Amendment.
Amendment. To change or modify for the better.
To alter by modification, deletion, or addition.
SOURCE: Black's Law Dictionary, Abridged Sixth Edition Centennial Edition
(1891-1991) West Publishing (1991) p 52
********************************************************
I said it was modified, not revoked. The 1st reads, "Congress shall
make no law ...". The 14th reads "No State shall make ... any law ..."
The 14th modifies the 1st to effectively read, "Congress and the
States shall make no law ..."
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:55:12 -0500
From: Josh Rosenbluth to fred
*****************************************************
The Williamsburg Charter, 1988
A Reaffirmation of the First Amendment
********************************************************************
Fourteenth Amendment, Selective Incorporation
***************************************************************
The following list shows the provisions in the Bill of Rights that have
been incorporated via the 14th Amendment:
[list snipped]
*****************************************************************
JEFFERSON DIDN'T CREATE CHURCH STATE SEPARAITON
However, Jefferson didn't create church state separation:
The principle of church state separation was embodied in the unamended
constitution long before Jefferson wrote a word to the Danbury Baptist
Assoc.
Study Guide: Separation of Church and State - Indepth
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd0.htm
That honor belongs far more to James Madison
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.education/msg/f337c95be318d68b?hl=en&
Your shorter link is: http://makeashorterlink.com/?F2021275C
*******************************************************************************************
Everson v. Bd of Ed defined the Establishment Clasue.
Here are the footnotes that the court used to pen the definition:
FOOTNOTES TO EVERSON v. BD OF ED.
http://snurl.com/2pro
**************************************************************
Posting and reading from alt.politics.usa.constitution OR alt.education
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the U.S. and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
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