| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"JTEM" |
| Date: |
26 Jul 2003 12:16:57 AM |
| Object: |
Re: New World Ancestors Lose 12,000 Years |
"Mark K. Bilbo" <iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote
So then those 30,000 year old archaeological sites
musta been by aliens!
Myself, I've seen hard dates in the range of 22,000
years.
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| User: "Andrew Criddle" |
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| Title: Re: New World Ancestors Lose 12,000 Years |
26 Jul 2003 05:30:50 AM |
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"JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<T8Odncd9ecXtk7-iXTWJjg@comcast.com>...
"Mark K. Bilbo" <iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote
So then those 30,000 year old archaeological sites
musta been by aliens!
Myself, I've seen hard dates in the range of 22,000
years.
Given the large error range in this sort of genetic
analysis I don't see 22,000 years as a real problem
the 30,000 year old dates are another matter.
Andrew Criddle
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| User: "Louann Miller" |
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| Title: Re: New World Ancestors Lose 12,000 Years |
26 Jul 2003 08:55:05 AM |
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On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 05:16:57 +0000 (UTC), "JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote
So then those 30,000 year old archaeological sites
musta been by aliens!
Myself, I've seen hard dates in the range of 22,000
years.
Cite? I mean that in the "interested in the subject, would be glad to
find more to read about it" sense rather than the "sez you" sense.
Until February 2002 I worked for the Anthropology department at SMU in
Dallas. David Meltzer was one of my favorite professors to work for
and I picked up bits of info on what he was doing from time to time.
Last book I read on the topic was Advasio's "The First Americans."
--
If God wanted us to believe we were related to chimpanzees,
he'd have given us DNA 95% identical to theirs.
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| User: "maff" |
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| Title: Re: New World Ancestors Lose 12,000 Years |
26 Jul 2003 03:32:22 PM |
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Louann Miller <louann_m@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<tf15ivkh3dfq394psru5830j1dv0j95cep@4ax.com>...
On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 05:16:57 +0000 (UTC), "JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote
So then those 30,000 year old archaeological sites
musta been by aliens!
Myself, I've seen hard dates in the range of 22,000
years.
Cite? I mean that in the "interested in the subject, would be glad to
find more to read about it" sense rather than the "sez you" sense.
Until February 2002 I worked for the Anthropology department at SMU in
Dallas. David Meltzer was one of my favorite professors to work for
and I picked up bits of info on what he was doing from time to time.
Last book I read on the topic was Advasio's "The First Americans."
The First Americans: In Pursuit of Archaeology's Greatest Mystery
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0375505520/
by J. M. Adovasio, Jake Page (Contributor)
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| User: "Louann Miller" |
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| Title: Re: New World Ancestors Lose 12,000 Years |
27 Jul 2003 12:50:24 PM |
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On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 20:32:22 +0000 (UTC), (maff)
wrote:
Louann Miller <louann_m@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<tf15ivkh3dfq394psru5830j1dv0j95cep@4ax.com>...
Last book I read on the topic was Advasio's "The First Americans."
The First Americans: In Pursuit of Archaeology's Greatest Mystery
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0375505520/
by J. M. Adovasio, Jake Page (Contributor)
Was this footnote really necessary? The rest of us have search engines
too, you know.
--
If God wanted us to believe we were related to chimpanzees,
he'd have given us DNA 95% identical to theirs.
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| User: "Floyd" |
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| Title: Re: New World Ancestors Lose 12,000 Years |
26 Jul 2003 04:06:53 PM |
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Louann Miller <louann_m@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<tf15ivkh3dfq394psru5830j1dv0j95cep@4ax.com>...
On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 05:16:57 +0000 (UTC), "JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote
So then those 30,000 year old archaeological sites
musta been by aliens!
Myself, I've seen hard dates in the range of 22,000
years.
Cite? I mean that in the "interested in the subject, would be glad to
find more to read about it" sense rather than the "sez you" sense.
22KYA is roughly the date of the start of the last major glacial
advance (+/-2ky), so my off-the-top-of-my-head guess would be that the
22k figure will be used in the sense of "they had to have entered
before the ice advanced again." That's a pretty common style of
argument, and it makes a certain amount of sense, *if* people entered
by foot.
By 18KYA, accotding to the Geological Survey of Canada, the "ice-free
corridor" was definitely closed, and it stayed closed until the
terminal Pleistocene.
So, the argument runs, humans must have entered the Americas prior to
18KYA because:
1) humans of the time were obligate big game hunters
2) mammoths can't swim long distances
3) so mammoths must have entered on foot through the IFC,
4) followed by human hunters.
It's basically the "Clovis First" model, pushed back a few thousand
years to compensate for Monte Verde and the palaeoclimatological and
geological evidence. It shares another important similarity with the
"Clovis First" hypothesis too; it's almost certainly wrong.
Both models absolutely rely on humans being obligate big game hunters,
but the only reason we associate Clovis with mammoths is that a few
tools have been found in association with mammoth bones, while none
have been found in association with the bones of smaller mammals. The
reson for this differential association is, IMHO, almost certainly an
artifact of recovery and not an actual distributional difference.
Ranchers who see rabbit bones eroding out of gullys don't call
geologists or archaeologists, but ranchers who find mammoth bones
sometimes do. The folks who first arrived here may very easily have
been hunting small game, perhaps for thousands of years, and we simply
wouldn't know it because we're not looking for it.
Until February 2002 I worked for the Anthropology department at SMU in
Dallas. David Meltzer was one of my favorite professors to work for
and I picked up bits of info on what he was doing from time to time.
Last book I read on the topic was Advasio's "The First Americans."
Adovasio is a good writer, and an excellent excavator, but his dates
for Meadowcroft are questionable, at best. The carbon was very likely
contaminated, and the rest of the site looks Holocene. The fauna from
the cave doesn't look like periglacial tundra animals, but like
eastern woodlands animals. I know Jim says that Meadowcroft may have
been a warm refugium during the Pleistocene, but at *best* I don't
think he's made the case, and in my more critical moments, I fear that
he's got wrapped up in "Guinness Book-ism" and is emphasising the
"first" bit over much.
His critique of the Clovis First model is good reading, but
Meadowcroft is useful supporting evidence for that critique, IMO. Of
course opinions differ among archys, and the whole debate is one of
the more contentious issues in the field right now. Lots of archys
have some emotional investment in one side or the other, so the debate
has occasionally turned into a big pissing contest, which is neither
helpful, nor interesting, but it does reveal a great deal about some
remnants of our glorious primate heritage. ;-)
-Floyd
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| User: "Scott Rutter" |
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| Title: Re: New World Ancestors Lose 12,000 Years |
27 Jul 2003 06:09:37 AM |
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On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 06:12:04 +0000 (UTC), "JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"Floyd" <farchy@u.washington.edu> wrote
The folks who first arrived here may very easily
have been hunting small game, perhaps for
Ogg, kill rabbit!
Where, behind the mammoth? :)
-
To Reply: Take off every Zig!
EAC - Director of Quantum Computing
Ordained Minister - Universal Life Church
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: New World Ancestors Lose 12,000 Years |
27 Jul 2003 11:32:07 PM |
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On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 19:03:15 +0000, Floyd wrote:
Even today, all seventeen people who live
in Nebraska and Kansas came there from somewhere else. ;-)
There are people in Nebraska and Kansas?
--
Mark K. Bilbo #1423 EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
________________________________________________________________
"...lying is central to the survival of nations and to the
success of great enterprises, because if our enemies can
count on the reliability of everything you say, your
vulnerability is enormously increased."
- Michael Ledeen, neo-con leader
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| User: "Floyd" |
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| Title: Re: New World Ancestors Lose 12,000 Years |
28 Jul 2003 09:52:42 AM |
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"Mark K. Bilbo" <iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote in message news:<pan.2003.07.28.04.31.00.891283@eac.org>...
On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 19:03:15 +0000, Floyd wrote:
Even today, all seventeen people who live
in Nebraska and Kansas came there from somewhere else. ;-)
There are people in Nebraska and Kansas?
--
Sure, haven't you heard of Nebraska Man? That's one; the others are
on a school board, I think.
-Floyd
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| User: "Pithecanthropus erectus" |
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| Title: Re: New World Ancestors Lose 12,000 Years |
30 Jul 2003 10:24:04 PM |
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"raven1" <psychedelephant@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:fpf9ivgt3sabcr6km8grlc24t7pt8kp5l5@4ax.com...
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 04:32:07 +0000 (UTC), "Mark K. Bilbo"
<iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 19:03:15 +0000, Floyd wrote:
Even today, all seventeen people who live
in Nebraska and Kansas came there from somewhere else. ;-)
There are people in Nebraska and Kansas?
Yes, but there aren't any caves. And anyways, the caves they do have aren't
very interesting. And no cavepeople. And they cavepeople that are there
have peccary teeth.
And Toto too!
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.504 / Virus Database: 302 - Release Date: 7/24/03
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| User: "Harry Leopold" |
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| Title: Re: New World Ancestors Lose 12,000 Years |
28 Jul 2003 09:09:20 PM |
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On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 23:32:07 -0500, Mark K. Bilbo wrote
(in message <pan.2003.07.28.04.31.00.891283@eac.org>):
From: "Mark K. Bilbo" <iskanipa-y@hoo.com>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism, alt.agnosticism, talk.origins
On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 19:03:15 +0000, Floyd wrote:
Even today, all seventeen people who live
in Nebraska and Kansas came there from somewhere else. ;-)
There are people in Nebraska and Kansas?
You rang?
Harry F. Leopold - coming to you from Kansas
aa #2076
The Prints of Darkness
"Your god wears fuzzy pink bunny slippers."
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: New World Ancestors Lose 12,000 Years |
26 Jul 2003 10:07:07 AM |
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On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 05:16:57 +0000, JTEM wrote:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote
So then those 30,000 year old archaeological sites musta been by aliens!
Myself, I've seen hard dates in the range of 22,000 years.
I've seen upwards of 40K. But what's interesting is that dates closer to
the old "land bridge" idea are immediately accepted. Anything else is met
with massive resistance regardless of the quality of the data...
--
Mark K. Bilbo #1423 EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
________________________________________________________________
"In order to achieve the most noble accomplishments, the leader
may have to 'enter into evil.' This is the chilling insight
that has made Machiavelli so feared, admired and challenging
we are rotten....It's true that we can achieve greatness if,
and only if, we are properly led."
- Michael Ledeen, neoconservative leader
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