Re: Newman: theory of NS "falls far short of adequacy"



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "david ford"
Date: 24 Nov 2003 11:30:03 PM
Object: Re: Newman: theory of NS "falls far short of adequacy"
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003, John Wilkins wrote:

Michael Siemon <mlsiemon@sonic.net> wrote:

AC <mightymartianca@yahoo.ca> wrote:

david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003, William Barwell wrote:
david ford wrote:

Newman, Horatio Hackett. 1932. _ Evolution, Genetics and
Eugenics_ (Chicago: The University of Chicago Press),
620pp. Newman was a Professor of Zoology at the University
of Chicago. The end of the section "Experimental Support of
the Effectiveness of Natural Selection" and the beginning of
the section "The Present Status of Natural Selection," on
395-6:


Hey, some creationist had to dig around in an ancient book from 1932 to
diss Darwin?

....

Why show your vast ignorance rooting around ancient books?


You ask "Why?" I ask "Why not?"


Because science, including biology, has travelled a long way in seventy
years.


Particularly in light of the rather curious fact that Newman's 1932
would have been nearly contemporary with the very beginning of the
"Modern Synthesis"[*] which rescued Natural Selection from a whole
raft of incredulity, misunderstanding and trivialization that had been
dominant for most of the 20th century up to that time.
--- [*]
Fisher's 1930 _The Genetical Theory of Natural Selection_. Perhaps, if
David is even marginally honest and competent, he can point to some
passage in Newman effectively refuting Fisher?

Fisher? Hah! What a joke. Are you really that gullible?
Orr & Coyne on Fisher
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.SGI.3.95.970329001049.19794A-100000%40umbc10.umbc.edu
1992 _American Naturalist_ paper by Orr & Coyne
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.SGI.3.96.980614220859.6338A-100000%40umbc8.umbc.edu

[I think not; he seems
more like a typical "conservative" longing to return to days in which
incredulity, misunderstanding and trivialization can pass for
biology.]


Of course, Fisher's book was unintelligible to most biologists until
after WWII, as that level of maths was not required to do biology much
before then.

.

User: "Michael Siemon"

Title: Re: Newman: theory of NS "falls far short of adequacy" 25 Nov 2003 12:22:10 AM
In article
<Pine.LNX.4.44L.01.0311250026030.7036-100000@linux2.gl.umbc.edu>,
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
.....

Fisher's 1930 _The Genetical Theory of Natural Selection_. Perhaps, if
David is even marginally honest and competent, he can point to some
passage in Newman effectively refuting Fisher?


Fisher? Hah! What a joke. Are you really that gullible?

David,
You are a contemptible, ignorant fool. You have _never_ made
a coherent argument in your life, and you deal in nasty innuendo
and preposterous nonsense that only make you repugnant to any
honest reader. You hide behind layers of sleaze, and pretend to
be critical. What is most interesting in the URLs you present is
that Coyne himself essentially calls you a liar.
[I would strongly encourage all talk.origins readers to follow
David's cited URLs, as they show he _really_ hasn't got a clue about
anything in biology or science or any kind of self-critical endeavor.
As an example of David's disingenuousness, note that what he cites as
"Coyne & Orr on Fisher" is a net exchange with Jeffrey Shallit with
quotes from Coyne, and that Fisher IS NOT MENTIONED IN THIS TEXT. He
seems to think that the Coyne & Orr claim of "major" mutations --
which Coyne specifically denies to be "macromutations" -- being in
some cases relevant, makes a "joke" of the neo-Darwinian theory. It
clearly does no such thing.]
You seem to be incapable of following any kind of argument. The
URLs you cite do _zilch_ to substantiate your apparent attempt to
dismiss Fisher. If you would ever emerge from your stupid games to
present a case, point by point, with rational discussion, you might
a) state what it is about Coyne's argument that you think makes
Fisher's contribution "a joke"
b) defend that with respect to the claims of the "Modern Synthesis"
(which you will need to state carefully, for this purpose) and
where these fail, if at all -- and what the consequences for
our understanding of evolution (and natural selection) might be.
and
c) consider what might remain valid under the Synthesis even if a
later discussion extends or modifies some presumptions of the
Synthesists. [Hint: Gould gives exhaustive treatments of a lot
of this, none of it conducing to a rejection of either NS or of
the main thrust of the re-establishment of Natural Selection
as absolutely central to the evolution of organisms -- despite
his own pleas for "broadening" the theory to non-organismal
levels and to mechanisms interacting with NS in interesting ways.


Orr & Coyne on Fisher
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.SGI.3.95.970329001049.19794A-100000%40u
mbc10.umbc.edu

1992 _American Naturalist_ paper by Orr & Coyne
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=Pine.SGI.3.96.980614220859.6338A-100000%40um
bc8.umbc.edu

OK -- your turn: _quote_ from these references the specific points that
you think make Fisher's "Genetic Theory" a joke. I dare you. I seriously
doubt that you can _read_ well enough (let alone think adequately) to do
any such thing.
You will, of course, refer to explicit material from Fisher in your
proof that he can be so dismissed [Yeah; right -- like, I'm going to
wait for any such thing to happen.]
You _really_ need to start engaging your brain [that organ on the other
end of your usual speaking apparatus] if you want anyone to take your
statements as having any but entertainment value.
.


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