Religions > Atheism > Re: News: Atheism, Morality and Belonging in American Life
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"wbarwell" |
| Date: |
17 Jul 2006 05:49:01 PM |
| Object: |
Re: News: Atheism, Morality and Belonging in American Life |
Martin wrote:
jtem01@gmail.com wrote:
wbarwell wrote:
jtem01@gmail.com wrote:
Garbage in/garbage out.
God is dead.
CAN GOD EXIST? STRONG ATHEISM SAYS NO.
[---snip remaining 9,000 lines of babble---]
Is English not your fist language, or what?
I don't know what you think you're responding to, and I
don't very much care.
Apart from which it's boring as hell him posting the same screed over
and over again. Bit like the "suck the *****" dude, the first time in
response to that nutter Andrew it was funny, now it's just stupid
Its not over and over, I keep rewriting it.
Its an attempt to make it less goof proof for the
careless readers of this world.
Nor is it stupid as it cuts to the heart of things,
god is not a good idea and collpases under its own
contradictions.
Atheists haters have many misconceptions about
Atheists, but also their own god. The reply to an
article on the mindless Atheists hating was GIGO.
GIGO - The god idea.
Going "Its your burden to prove god" is a basically
failed idea that has lead to the situation that
has marginalized Atheism.
The theists think they have proven god and Atheists
are just being stupid and refuse to admit the facts.
GIGO as Jtem sneered.
--
"Laughter is not a sin intrinsically, but it produces sin"
"Homilies - Adversus ebriosos et de resurrectione domini
nostri Jesu" - St. John Chrysostom
.
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| User: "Gandalf Grey" |
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| Title: Re: News: Atheism, Morality and Belonging in American Life |
17 Jul 2006 06:05:22 PM |
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"wbarwell" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:12bo4uvigb6ibf1@corp.supernews.com...
Martin wrote:
jtem01@gmail.com wrote:
wbarwell wrote:
jtem01@gmail.com wrote:
Garbage in/garbage out.
God is dead.
CAN GOD EXIST? STRONG ATHEISM SAYS NO.
[---snip remaining 9,000 lines of babble---]
Is English not your fist language, or what?
I don't know what you think you're responding to, and I
don't very much care.
Apart from which it's boring as hell him posting the same screed over
and over again. Bit like the "suck the *****" dude, the first time in
response to that nutter Andrew it was funny, now it's just stupid
Its not over and over, I keep rewriting it.
Garbage in, Garbage out.
Its an attempt to make it less goof proof for the
careless readers of this world.
No it's not. It's an attempt to take the same flawed arguments and repeated
over and over again in as many forms as you can in an attempt to shout down
those who can see that you have a flawed argument.
.
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: News: Atheism, Morality and Belonging in American Life |
17 Jul 2006 11:19:07 PM |
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Gandalf Grey wrote:
"wbarwell" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:12bo4uvigb6ibf1@corp.supernews.com...
Martin wrote:
jtem01@gmail.com wrote:
wbarwell wrote:
jtem01@gmail.com wrote:
Garbage in/garbage out.
God is dead.
CAN GOD EXIST? STRONG ATHEISM SAYS NO.
[---snip remaining 9,000 lines of babble---]
Is English not your fist language, or what?
I don't know what you think you're responding to, and I
don't very much care.
Apart from which it's boring as hell him posting the same screed over
and over again. Bit like the "suck the *****" dude, the first time in
response to that nutter Andrew it was funny, now it's just stupid
Its not over and over, I keep rewriting it.
Garbage in, Garbage out.
The only garbage is your spammed lies.
My proofs get stronger and more numerous by the day.
And I keep comng up with more of them.
It seems to make you envious you can't do anything
but bore people with your idiocy by comparison.
CAN GOD EXIST? STRONG ATHEISM SAYS NO.
1.THE SELF DESTRUCTION OF THE CONCEPT OF
OMNIPOTENCE
A. Omnipotence is derived from Latin words
omni - all, potent - power, potency.
B. It thus means all potent, all powerful.
Having all possible powers and abilities.
It means god has all possible powers. Many
theologians hasten to add that god is not
omnipotent in regards to illogical or impossible
things, he cannot make for example, a married
bachelor.
C. It also means lessor powers and entities have
no possible way of affecting god, or in limiting
good in any possible manner.
D. Except for such logical exceptions nothing
can limited god, he is unlimited in ability and
power.
2. GOD AND TIME
A. Time exists
B. But if god is to be omnipotent, time cannot
limit god in any way.
C. Time is what gives us a past, present and
future. We cannot see the future, nor reach
into the future at will.
D. If god is so limited, god is not omnipotent,
time, past and present limit god. Time is more
powerful than unlimited god.
E. Thus past present and future, time, do not
and cannot limit god, for god there is no
past, present or future, all is now.
F. God then can see all of creation at once,
directly, and can experience or interact
with any and all things at once.
G. If time exists, god must have created it, and
he created our inability to see more than a
small part of time, now and not see future nor
past directly.
3. GOD, CREATION, AND TIME.
A. God created all, this is a basic claim
of many religions, Judaism, Christianity,
Hinduism, Islam. The Bible and Quran and
other sacred books are explicit about god's
creation of all.
B. If all is now, and for God there is no past,
and no future in essence, all is for practical
purposes now, and all that was, is and shall
be are now, existant.
C. Thus god created all now, at one time,
complete in all particulars to the last quark
and last fraction of a second in all
particulars and connections to all the rest of
the things in the Universe.
D. A god contemplated his creation, he then had to
think about what he was to create in all
particulars. If he created a man named John
Smith born in 1950, he had contemplate all of
Smith's existence as he created it. Each
atom, each act, each inclination of Smith had
to be created at once.
E. And god had to contemplate creation of each
atom, each act, every second, every inclination
of Smiths life and existence. He had to say
"Yes, I will create that" or "No, I will not
create that".
F. He had to contemplate the last detail of
Smith's life, decide what he would specifically
create Smith as doing and create it all.
If Smith is evil and damned it is totally
God's doing. If good and saved, it is all
totally God's doing.
G. Since all is at once, and all is created at
once, and god creates all, he must likewise
create at once, all sentient beings of his
universe, mortals, angels, demons, djinn.
H. Thus because all must be at once because god
is not limited by time in any way and thus not
past and present, and since he creates all,
there can be no free will at all in this
Universe.
I. All exists only because all was created by god
as it was created in all its particulars to the
smallest degree possible, with god's personal
knowledge and purpose and will.
4. OMNIGENESIS
This idea that god creates all now, totally,
in all physical particulars for all time to
the smallest details should have name as it is
a powerful concept that is destructive to so
many claims. Omnigenesis, creation of all
would be an apt term. If god is sovereign over
all time, and there is no past, no future, just
now, created in its totality by god, then
omnigenesis is the state of reality and no
free will can exist. Omnigenesis is a state
of the universe that all else preceeds from.
5. GOD AND OMNIBENEVOLENCE.
1. God is said to be good, all good, supremely
good. Often denoted by the word
omnibenevolent.
2. There is evil.
3. Evil comes in two type, natural evil,
drought, floods, hurricanes and moral evil,
evil deriving from acts of mankind, murder,
rape, lying as examples.
4. But if god made all man's acts to the last
detail including evil ones, then evil exists
only because god exists.
5. God also creates all natural evils that befall
man.
6. Since all evils are directly caused by god and
only god, as nobody has free will except god,
all evil is caused directly and only by god.
7. Therefore god is evil.
5. GOD AND OTHER CLAIMS ATTRIBUTES OF GOD
THAT FAIL HERE.
1. God is claimed to be loving, merciful,
and just.
2. But making a man evil and then condemning him
to hell for being something he has no choice in
being is unjust, unmerciful and not loving.
7. GOD'S FREE WILL
A. If god creates all in one now, no real past
and present, all at once, he also creates in
this all at once creation, all interactions he
has with all aspects of creation. Every
action, every omniscient inspection of all of
creation as it is before him, any possible
interaction at all imaginable.
B. This must mean God is frozen in time as he
makes all his interactions with the Universe
creates also at once. All is including all
god does. He also lacks free will. All is an
eternal now, frozen, unchangeable, unchanging,
static, we are all like insects frozen in
amber forever.
8. GOD AND TIME IN RETROSPECT AT THIS POINT.
A. Suppose we say we cannot have this, we must
rethink this.
B. We must drop then, all explicit claims of
omniscience and thus incidentally, omnipotence.
C. We must drop all claims of perfection, and
omnipotence explicitly also. They lead to god
being sovereign over time.
D. We must explicitly drop all references to
sovereignty or power over time, the future and
the past. Again, omnipotence leads directly to
that claim.
E. If time is now more powerful than god, if
time affects and limits god, god cannot have
created time.
F. Time is thus outside god and not create
by him so we must drop explicit claims god
created the entire Universe.
G. Since he cannot have created the entire
Universe he cannot be in any way a necessary
being, he is under time, limited by time,
and must use time so he is contingent on time
and a contingent being.
H. Thus time shows us god is not as claimed,
perfect, omnipotent, omniscient,
omnibenevolent, and creator of all.
Few theories in history implode as
spectacularly as omnipotence when we start
examining time in light of claims of
omnipotence.
9. CONCLUSION
1. Perfection -> omnipotence -> omniscience ->
power over time -> creation of all now -> man's
lack of free will -> God's creation of all evil
-> destruction of all good qualities such as
love, mercy and justice -> and finally lack of
free will for god himself.
2. This does not work.
3. And the whole chain does not work. Start any
place from say perfection, or omnipotence,
which leads to sovereignty over time and it
leads to collapse of about all assertions made
by theology and religion about god.
10. Basically, omnipotence contains the seeds of
its own destruction, dragging down everything else
with it. We end up with an incoherent world where
there can be no love, mercy, justice. Sin and
evil and punishment make no sense when we are
puppets, when all we do to the smallest atom was
gods, specific, knowing, purposeful creation.
Free will means nothing, original sin, means
nothing, heaven, hell and Satan lose all reason to
exist. This world is incoherent and madder than
Alice's Wonderland, or H. P. Lovecraft's fantasy
worlds of mad gods and a Universe gone wrong. A
metaphysical dystopia even Satan could not
design.
God as perfect, omniscient, omnipotent or
sovereign over time cannot be. Nor does it end
there. A God that is omniscient, or has power over
time cannot be. One can try to soften claims for
God by dropping omnipotence, perfection, and many
other claims, but explicit sovereignty over time
and explicit omniscience both doom weaker types
of gods weakened specifically to get around
omnipotence or perfection puzzles.
Soverignty over time dooms all other classes of
possible gods and also shows any other classes of
gods cannot have created all including time also,
not just the class of omni-everything creator
gods.
And as omnipotence soon drags us into this
problem with time, free will and evil,
omnipotence is impossible for all other possible
classes of gods other than just omni-everything,
creator gods.
(End)
--
"Laughter is not a sin intrinsically, but it produces sin"
"Homilies - Adversus ebriosos et de resurrectione domini
nostri Jesu" - St. John Chrysostom
.
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| User: "Gandalf Grey" |
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| Title: Re: News: Atheism, Morality and Belonging in American Life |
18 Jul 2006 12:03:08 AM |
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"wbarwell" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:12boo9pavbkdrf9@corp.supernews.com...
Gandalf Grey wrote:
"wbarwell" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:12bo4uvigb6ibf1@corp.supernews.com...
Martin wrote:
jtem01@gmail.com wrote:
wbarwell wrote:
jtem01@gmail.com wrote:
Garbage in/garbage out.
God is dead.
CAN GOD EXIST? STRONG ATHEISM SAYS NO.
[---snip remaining 9,000 lines of babble---]
Is English not your fist language, or what?
I don't know what you think you're responding to, and I
don't very much care.
Apart from which it's boring as hell him posting the same screed over
and over again. Bit like the "suck the *****" dude, the first time in
response to that nutter Andrew it was funny, now it's just stupid
Its not over and over, I keep rewriting it.
Garbage in, Garbage out.
The only garbage is your spammed lies.
You can start proving that anytime now. If you can take time off from
spamming your already debunked arguments.
My proofs get stronger and more numerous by the day.
Keep setting up and I'll keep knocking them down.
CAN GOD EXIST? STRONG ATHEISM SAYS NO.
Which is again a universal claim you haven't backed.
1.THE SELF DESTRUCTION OF THE CONCEPT OF
OMNIPOTENCE
A. Omnipotence is derived from Latin words
omni - all, potent - power, potency.
A word that is not included in the bible.
B. It thus means all potent, all powerful.
Not to the Hebrews. El Shaddai did not mean "all powerful" it meant "God of
the mountain"
Having all possible powers and abilities.
The Augustinians derived that belief from the heavy Greek influence on
philosophy. It was this that led to the contradictions of Augustinian
thought. Not some necessary attribute of any necessary god.
2. GOD AND TIME
A. Time exists
B. But if god is to be omnipotent, time cannot
limit god in any way.
Unproven. God may be the source of time. If this is the case, time is
perfect because god is perfect. God is under no obligation to tinker with
his own perfection.
3. GOD, CREATION, AND TIME.
A. God created all, this is a basic claim
of many religions, Judaism, Christianity,
Hinduism, Islam. The Bible and Quran and
other sacred books are explicit about god's
creation of all.
B. If all is now, and for God there is no past,
and no future in essence, all is for practical
purposes now, and all that was, is and shall
be are now, existant.
C. Thus god created all now, at one time,
complete in all particulars to the last quark
and last fraction of a second in all
particulars and connections to all the rest of
the things in the Universe.
Unshown. The fact that god created all does not mean god created everything
in detail. If the big bang 'created' the unverse, it does not imply that
the big bang made my butane lighter.
4. OMNIGENESIS
This idea that god creates all now, totally,
in all physical particulars for all time to
the smallest details should have name as it is
a powerful concept that is destructive to so
many claims. Omnigenesis, creation of all
would be an apt term.
The famous debunker Martin Gardner noted that the need to create neologisms
like "class of omni-everything gods" and "omnigenesis" is one of the 5
hallmarks of the pseudo-scientific *crank.*
Since you have not proved that god must have created all particulars of all
things "totally, in all physical particulars for all time" there is no need
for some new word to describe that which you have not shown.
5. GOD AND OMNIBENEVOLENCE.
1. God is said to be good, all good, supremely
good. Often denoted by the word
omnibenevolent.
2. There is evil.
3. Evil comes in two type, natural evil,
drought, floods, hurricanes and moral evil,
evil deriving from acts of mankind, murder,
rape, lying as examples.
4. But if god made all man's acts to the last
detail including evil ones, then evil exists
only because god exists.
The above is a sloppy restatement of the Logical and Evidential Argument
from Evil. These are two arguments that work quite well until you get your
hands one them.
It would be nice if you left them alone. Your tinkering and your addition
of non-sequiturs and self-contradictory notions and useless neologisms does
nothing but mutilate the original ideas.
5. GOD AND OTHER CLAIMS ATTRIBUTES OF GOD
THAT FAIL HERE.
1. God is claimed to be loving, merciful,
and just.
And you've done nothing to show that god is not. See above.
7. GOD'S FREE WILL
A. If god creates all in one now
But you haven't shown this to be a logical necessity, hence the rest fails.
8. GOD AND TIME IN RETROSPECT AT THIS POINT.
A. Suppose we say we cannot have this, we must
rethink this.
You should read those words very carefully. That's exactly the point you're
at.
.
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| User: "Sniper" |
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| Title: Ad nauseam cut & paste ala Septic |
18 Jul 2006 12:10:06 AM |
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wbarwell wrote:
[snip]
My proofs get stronger and more numerous by the day.
You're a fucking legend in your own mind,
Barwell. BTW, has it actually not occured
to you yet that if the so-called "proofs"
were that strong you wouldn't feel a need
to post them over and over and over again
hoping that eventually people will agree?
Never mind, it was a rhetorical question.
And I keep comng up with more of them.
It seems to make you envious you can't do anything
but bore people with your idiocy by comparison.
CAN GOD EXIST? STRONG ATHEISM SAYS NO.
1.THE SELF DESTRUCTION OF THE CONCEPT OF
OMNIPOTENCE
A. Omnipotence is derived from Latin words
omni - all, potent - power, potency.
B. It thus means all potent, all powerful.
Having all possible powers and abilities.
It means god has all possible powers. Many
theologians hasten to add that god is not
omnipotent in regards to illogical or impossible
things, he cannot make for example, a married
bachelor.
C. It also means lessor powers and entities have
no possible way of affecting god, or in limiting
good in any possible manner.
D. Except for such logical exceptions nothing
can limited god, he is unlimited in ability and
power.
2. GOD AND TIME
A. Time exists
B. But if god is to be omnipotent, time cannot
limit god in any way.
C. Time is what gives us a past, present and
future. We cannot see the future, nor reach
into the future at will.
D. If god is so limited, god is not omnipotent,
time, past and present limit god. Time is more
powerful than unlimited god.
E. Thus past present and future, time, do not
and cannot limit god, for god there is no
past, present or future, all is now.
F. God then can see all of creation at once,
directly, and can experience or interact
with any and all things at once.
G. If time exists, god must have created it, and
he created our inability to see more than a
small part of time, now and not see future nor
past directly.
3. GOD, CREATION, AND TIME.
A. God created all, this is a basic claim
of many religions, Judaism, Christianity,
Hinduism, Islam. The Bible and Quran and
other sacred books are explicit about god's
creation of all.
B. If all is now, and for God there is no past,
and no future in essence, all is for practical
purposes now, and all that was, is and shall
be are now, existant.
C. Thus god created all now, at one time,
complete in all particulars to the last quark
and last fraction of a second in all
particulars and connections to all the rest of
the things in the Universe.
D. A god contemplated his creation, he then had to
think about what he was to create in all
particulars. If he created a man named John
Smith born in 1950, he had contemplate all of
Smith's existence as he created it. Each
atom, each act, each inclination of Smith had
to be created at once.
E. And god had to contemplate creation of each
atom, each act, every second, every inclination
of Smiths life and existence. He had to say
"Yes, I will create that" or "No, I will not
create that".
F. He had to contemplate the last detail of
Smith's life, decide what he would specifically
create Smith as doing and create it all.
If Smith is evil and damned it is totally
God's doing. If good and saved, it is all
totally God's doing.
G. Since all is at once, and all is created at
once, and god creates all, he must likewise
create at once, all sentient beings of his
universe, mortals, angels, demons, djinn.
H. Thus because all must be at once because god
is not limited by time in any way and thus not
past and present, and since he creates all,
there can be no free will at all in this
Universe.
I. All exists only because all was created by god
as it was created in all its particulars to the
smallest degree possible, with god's personal
knowledge and purpose and will.
4. OMNIGENESIS
This idea that god creates all now, totally,
in all physical particulars for all time to
the smallest details should have name as it is
a powerful concept that is destructive to so
many claims. Omnigenesis, creation of all
would be an apt term. If god is sovereign over
all time, and there is no past, no future, just
now, created in its totality by god, then
omnigenesis is the state of reality and no
free will can exist. Omnigenesis is a state
of the universe that all else preceeds from.
5. GOD AND OMNIBENEVOLENCE.
1. God is said to be good, all good, supremely
good. Often denoted by the word
omnibenevolent.
2. There is evil.
3. Evil comes in two type, natural evil,
drought, floods, hurricanes and moral evil,
evil deriving from acts of mankind, murder,
rape, lying as examples.
4. But if god made all man's acts to the last
detail including evil ones, then evil exists
only because god exists.
5. God also creates all natural evils that befall
man.
6. Since all evils are directly caused by god and
only god, as nobody has free will except god,
all evil is caused directly and only by god.
7. Therefore god is evil.
5. GOD AND OTHER CLAIMS ATTRIBUTES OF GOD
THAT FAIL HERE.
1. God is claimed to be loving, merciful,
and just.
2. But making a man evil and then condemning him
to hell for being something he has no choice in
being is unjust, unmerciful and not loving.
7. GOD'S FREE WILL
A. If god creates all in one now, no real past
and present, all at once, he also creates in
this all at once creation, all interactions he
has with all aspects of creation. Every
action, every omniscient inspection of all of
creation as it is before him, any possible
interaction at all imaginable.
B. This must mean God is frozen in time as he
makes all his interactions with the Universe
creates also at once. All is including all
god does. He also lacks free will. All is an
eternal now, frozen, unchangeable, unchanging,
static, we are all like insects frozen in
amber forever.
8. GOD AND TIME IN RETROSPECT AT THIS POINT.
A. Suppose we say we cannot have this, we must
rethink this.
B. We must drop then, all explicit claims of
omniscience and thus incidentally, omnipotence.
C. We must drop all claims of perfection, and
omnipotence explicitly also. They lead to god
being sovereign over time.
D. We must explicitly drop all references to
sovereignty or power over time, the future and
the past. Again, omnipotence leads directly to
that claim.
E. If time is now more powerful than god, if
time affects and limits god, god cannot have
created time.
F. Time is thus outside god and not create
by him so we must drop explicit claims god
created the entire Universe.
G. Since he cannot have created the entire
Universe he cannot be in any way a necessary
being, he is under time, limited by time,
and must use time so he is contingent on time
and a contingent being.
H. Thus time shows us god is not as claimed,
perfect, omnipotent, omniscient,
omnibenevolent, and creator of all.
Few theories in history implode as
spectacularly as omnipotence when we start
examining time in light of claims of
omnipotence.
9. CONCLUSION
1. Perfection -> omnipotence -> omniscience ->
power over time -> creation of all now -> man's
lack of free will -> God's creation of all evil
-> destruction of all good qualities such as
love, mercy and justice -> and finally lack of
free will for god himself.
2. This does not work.
3. And the whole chain does not work. Start any
place from say perfection, or omnipotence,
which leads to sovereignty over time and it
leads to collapse of about all assertions made
by theology and religion about god.
10. Basically, omnipotence contains the seeds of
its own destruction, dragging down everything else
with it. We end up with an incoherent world where
there can be no love, mercy, justice. Sin and
evil and punishment make no sense when we are
puppets, when all we do to the smallest atom was
gods, specific, knowing, purposeful creation.
Free will means nothing, original sin, means
nothing, heaven, hell and Satan lose all reason to
exist. This world is incoherent and madder than
Alice's Wonderland, or H. P. Lovecraft's fantasy
worlds of mad gods and a Universe gone wrong. A
metaphysical dystopia even Satan could not
design.
God as perfect, omniscient, omnipotent or
sovereign over time cannot be. Nor does it end
there. A God that is omniscient, or has power over
time cannot be. One can try to soften claims for
God by dropping omnipotence, perfection, and many
other claims, but explicit sovereignty over time
and explicit omniscience both doom weaker types
of gods weakened specifically to get around
omnipotence or perfection puzzles.
Soverignty over time dooms all other classes of
possible gods and also shows any other classes of
gods cannot have created all including time also,
not just the class of omni-everything creator
gods.
And as omnipotence soon drags us into this
problem with time, free will and evil,
omnipotence is impossible for all other possible
classes of gods other than just omni-everything,
creator gods.
(End)
.
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| User: "Gandalf Grey" |
|
| Title: Re: Ad nauseam cut & paste ala Septic |
18 Jul 2006 12:54:56 AM |
|
|
"Sniper" <sniper@gotcha.com> wrote in message
news:iLGdnb5GTaSy8CHZnZ2dnUVZ_qOdnZ2d@adelphia.com...
wbarwell wrote:
[snip]
My proofs get stronger and more numerous by the day.
You're a fucking legend in your own mind,
Barwell. BTW, has it actually not occured
to you yet that if the so-called "proofs"
were that strong you wouldn't feel a need
to post them over and over and over again
hoping that eventually people will agree?
There are a lot of things that never occur to Mr. Barwell. Most of the
rules of logic, for a start.
Never mind, it was a rhetorical question.
And I keep comng up with more of them.
It seems to make you envious you can't do anything but bore people with
your idiocy by comparison.
CAN GOD EXIST? STRONG ATHEISM SAYS NO.
1.THE SELF DESTRUCTION OF THE CONCEPT OF
OMNIPOTENCE
A. Omnipotence is derived from Latin words
omni - all, potent - power, potency.
B. It thus means all potent, all powerful.
Having all possible powers and abilities.
It means god has all possible powers. Many
theologians hasten to add that god is not
omnipotent in regards to illogical or impossible
things, he cannot make for example, a married
bachelor.
C. It also means lessor powers and entities have
no possible way of affecting god, or in limiting
good in any possible manner.
D. Except for such logical exceptions nothing
can limited god, he is unlimited in ability and
power.
2. GOD AND TIME
A. Time exists
B. But if god is to be omnipotent, time cannot
limit god in any way.
C. Time is what gives us a past, present and
future. We cannot see the future, nor reach
into the future at will.
D. If god is so limited, god is not omnipotent,
time, past and present limit god. Time is more
powerful than unlimited god.
E. Thus past present and future, time, do not
and cannot limit god, for god there is no
past, present or future, all is now.
F. God then can see all of creation at once,
directly, and can experience or interact
with any and all things at once.
G. If time exists, god must have created it, and
he created our inability to see more than a
small part of time, now and not see future nor
past directly.
3. GOD, CREATION, AND TIME.
A. God created all, this is a basic claim
of many religions, Judaism, Christianity,
Hinduism, Islam. The Bible and Quran and
other sacred books are explicit about god's
creation of all.
B. If all is now, and for God there is no past,
and no future in essence, all is for practical
purposes now, and all that was, is and shall
be are now, existant.
C. Thus god created all now, at one time,
complete in all particulars to the last quark
and last fraction of a second in all
particulars and connections to all the rest of
the things in the Universe.
D. A god contemplated his creation, he then had to
think about what he was to create in all
particulars. If he created a man named John
Smith born in 1950, he had contemplate all of
Smith's existence as he created it. Each
atom, each act, each inclination of Smith had
to be created at once.
E. And god had to contemplate creation of each
atom, each act, every second, every inclination
of Smiths life and existence. He had to say
"Yes, I will create that" or "No, I will not
create that".
F. He had to contemplate the last detail of
Smith's life, decide what he would specifically
create Smith as doing and create it all.
If Smith is evil and damned it is totally
God's doing. If good and saved, it is all
totally God's doing.
G. Since all is at once, and all is created at
once, and god creates all, he must likewise
create at once, all sentient beings of his
universe, mortals, angels, demons, djinn.
H. Thus because all must be at once because god
is not limited by time in any way and thus not
past and present, and since he creates all,
there can be no free will at all in this
Universe.
I. All exists only because all was created by god
as it was created in all its particulars to the
smallest degree possible, with god's personal
knowledge and purpose and will.
4. OMNIGENESIS
This idea that god creates all now, totally,
in all physical particulars for all time to
the smallest details should have name as it is
a powerful concept that is destructive to so
many claims. Omnigenesis, creation of all
would be an apt term. If god is sovereign over
all time, and there is no past, no future, just
now, created in its totality by god, then
omnigenesis is the state of reality and no
free will can exist. Omnigenesis is a state
of the universe that all else preceeds from.
5. GOD AND OMNIBENEVOLENCE.
1. God is said to be good, all good, supremely
good. Often denoted by the word
omnibenevolent.
2. There is evil.
3. Evil comes in two type, natural evil,
drought, floods, hurricanes and moral evil,
evil deriving from acts of mankind, murder,
rape, lying as examples.
4. But if god made all man's acts to the last
detail including evil ones, then evil exists
only because god exists.
5. God also creates all natural evils that befall
man.
6. Since all evils are directly caused by god and
only god, as nobody has free will except god,
all evil is caused directly and only by god.
7. Therefore god is evil.
5. GOD AND OTHER CLAIMS ATTRIBUTES OF GOD
THAT FAIL HERE.
1. God is claimed to be loving, merciful,
and just.
2. But making a man evil and then condemning him
to hell for being something he has no choice in
being is unjust, unmerciful and not loving.
7. GOD'S FREE WILL
A. If god creates all in one now, no real past
and present, all at once, he also creates in
this all at once creation, all interactions he
has with all aspects of creation. Every
action, every omniscient inspection of all of
creation as it is before him, any possible
interaction at all imaginable.
B. This must mean God is frozen in time as he
makes all his interactions with the Universe
creates also at once. All is including all
god does. He also lacks free will. All is an
eternal now, frozen, unchangeable, unchanging,
static, we are all like insects frozen in
amber forever.
8. GOD AND TIME IN RETROSPECT AT THIS POINT.
A. Suppose we say we cannot have this, we must
rethink this.
B. We must drop then, all explicit claims of
omniscience and thus incidentally, omnipotence.
C. We must drop all claims of perfection, and
omnipotence explicitly also. They lead to god
being sovereign over time.
D. We must explicitly drop all references to
sovereignty or power over time, the future and
the past. Again, omnipotence leads directly to
that claim.
E. If time is now more powerful than god, if
time affects and limits god, god cannot have
created time.
F. Time is thus outside god and not create
by him so we must drop explicit claims god
created the entire Universe.
G. Since he cannot have created the entire
Universe he cannot be in any way a necessary
being, he is under time, limited by time,
and must use time so he is contingent on time
and a contingent being.
H. Thus time shows us god is not as claimed,
perfect, omnipotent, omniscient,
omnibenevolent, and creator of all.
Few theories in history implode as
spectacularly as omnipotence when we start
examining time in light of claims of
omnipotence.
9. CONCLUSION
1. Perfection -> omnipotence -> omniscience ->
power over time -> creation of all now -> man's
lack of free will -> God's creation of all evil
-> destruction of all good qualities such as
love, mercy and justice -> and finally lack of
free will for god himself.
2. This does not work.
3. And the whole chain does not work. Start any
place from say perfection, or omnipotence,
which leads to sovereignty over time and it
leads to collapse of about all assertions made
by theology and religion about god.
10. Basically, omnipotence contains the seeds of
its own destruction, dragging down everything else
with it. We end up with an incoherent world where
there can be no love, mercy, justice. Sin and
evil and punishment make no sense when we are
puppets, when all we do to the smallest atom was
gods, specific, knowing, purposeful creation.
Free will means nothing, original sin, means
nothing, heaven, hell and Satan lose all reason to
exist. This world is incoherent and madder than
Alice's Wonderland, or H. P. Lovecraft's fantasy
worlds of mad gods and a Universe gone wrong. A
metaphysical dystopia even Satan could not
design.
God as perfect, omniscient, omnipotent or
sovereign over time cannot be. Nor does it end
there. A God that is omniscient, or has power over
time cannot be. One can try to soften claims for
God by dropping omnipotence, perfection, and many
other claims, but explicit sovereignty over time
and explicit omniscience both doom weaker types
of gods weakened specifically to get around
omnipotence or perfection puzzles.
Soverignty over time dooms all other classes of
possible gods and also shows any other classes of
gods cannot have created all including time also,
not just the class of omni-everything creator
gods.
And as omnipotence soon drags us into this
problem with time, free will and evil,
omnipotence is impossible for all other possible
classes of gods other than just omni-everything,
creator gods.
(End)
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: News: Atheism, Morality and Belonging in American Life |
18 Jul 2006 08:23:55 AM |
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Gandalf Grey wrote:
No it's not. It's an attempt to take the same flawed arguments and repeated
over and over again in as many forms as you can in an attempt to shout down
those who can see that you have a flawed argument.
That one of the best summaries of the religous viewpoint I've ever
seen.
Hatter
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| User: "Gandalf Grey" |
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| Title: Re: News: Atheism, Morality and Belonging in American Life |
18 Jul 2006 12:06:42 PM |
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<Hatter23@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1153229035.613391.18670@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Gandalf Grey wrote:
No it's not. It's an attempt to take the same flawed arguments and
repeated
over and over again in as many forms as you can in an attempt to shout
down
those who can see that you have a flawed argument.
That one of the best summaries of the religous viewpoint I've ever
seen.
Hatter
I agree. The sad thing is that Mr. Barwell is using the same techniques and
making science and atheism look no better than the usual religious
arguments.
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: News: Atheism, Morality and Belonging in American Life |
18 Jul 2006 02:52:54 PM |
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Gandalf Grey wrote:
I agree. The sad thing is that Mr. Barwell is using the same techniques
and making science and atheism look no better than the usual religious
arguments.
As if you would know the difference.
************************************************
GANDY's LOGIC DYSLEXIA
*************************************************
WBARWELL
Something cannot come from nothing.
Therefore something must have always existed
far back into infinity. There was never a
time when nothing did not exist.
Parmenides nailed this one.
Something always existed.
GANDY
Another unsupported assertion.
WBARWELL
Really, you are NOT going to actually think, are
you?
Something always existed, as Parmenides pointed
out, there must have been.
Why? Well if you cannot figure it out, your
ability to reason is impaired.
I can't help you here.
GANDY
Prove it, Poser.
***********************************************
WBARWELL
OMNISCIENCE VERSUS CREATORHOOD OF GOD
God is defined as creator of all in most
religions.
GANDY
But not all.
WBARWELL
What part of "most" are you incapable of reading
and understanding?
In the class of Omni-everything CREATOR gods, god
is, by definition, creator of all.
In Judaism, Islam, Christianity and Hinduism, he
is explicitly, creator of all. An omni-everything
creator god.
*************************************************
Gandalf Grey wrote:
You're assuming what you need to prove. The
question is what responsibility
does omniscience have toward the known?
WBARWELL
Computers don't have responsibility...
GANDY
Exactly my point. And your insults just make you
look weak, Barwell.
WBARWELL
God does.
GANDY
Not as a consequence of pure omniscience.
There's is nothing about knowing
qua knowing that implies responsibility.
WBARWELL
But god if omniscient, and is also dogmatically
supreme good, all good, omnibenevolent, God
therefore has responsibility to use his
omniscience and omnipotence to achieve good as
much as possible. You detach god from the claims
of goodness and that means your jibbering is
meaningless. Omniscience does not mean
responsible, supreme goodness does. You can't
detach god's supposed goodness and ignore it.
*************************************************
BARWELL
If a powerful computer from today's Universe
could predict tomorrow's Universe, it could
tell us what to do today to guarantee
tomorrow's outcome to our specifications.
Gandalf Grey wrote:
But it wouldn't be morally responsible, moron.
BARWELL
Its programmers would....
GADNDY
But it's programmers wouldn't know the future,
Moron. You're getting very confused again,
Barwell. Maybe it's time for you to put your
head between your legs.
BARWELL
If you have a computer that predicts the future,
you ask it to tell you what that future is. Its
a computer that predicts the future, right? If
its not what you want, you make initial condition
changes and check what that does until you get
what you want.
GANDY
And that STILL doesn't make a programmer omniscient
or the computer responsible.
BARWELL
What, the programmers are robots that do things with
the computer at random with no goal? Amazingly stupid.
*********************************************
GANDY
You assusme that time is a power. You'll have
to prove that.
WBARWELL
Time is what creates past, present, future.
GANDY
Unsupported assertion. You act as though time
is both prehensive and active
WBARWELL
I will not comment on this.
What is funny about it is, you will never figure
out why people are laughing at you.
***************************************************
WBARWELL
Obviously if god is alledgedly all powerful,
having all powers, but does not have a power,
omniscience, he cannot be all powerful, not
omnipotent. He lacks a power, omniscience
WBARWELL
If god is not omniscient, god can not
omnipotent.
GANDY
Prove it, Poser.
WBARWELL
Obviously if god is alledgedly all powerful,
having all powers, but does not have a power,
omniscience, he cannot be all powerful, not
omnipotent. He lacks a power, omniscience.
GANDY
Omniscience is not a power.
(This doesn't need comment.)
****************************************************
--
"Laughter is not a sin intrinsically, but it produces sin"
"Homilies - Adversus ebriosos et de resurrectione domini
nostri Jesu" - St. John Chrysostom
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| User: "Gandalf Grey" |
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| Title: Re: News: Atheism, Morality and Belonging in American Life |
18 Jul 2006 03:06:01 PM |
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"wbarwell" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:12bqf0ekvsdbm95@corp.supernews.com...
CAN GOD EXIST? STRONG ATHEISM SAYS NO.
Which is again a universal claim you haven't backed.
1.THE SELF DESTRUCTION OF THE CONCEPT OF
OMNIPOTENCE
A. Omnipotence is derived from Latin words
omni - all, potent - power, potency.
A word that is not included in the bible.
B. It thus means all potent, all powerful.
Not to the Hebrews. El Shaddai did not mean "all powerful" it meant "God of
the mountain"
Having all possible powers and abilities.
The Augustinians derived that belief from the heavy Greek influence on
philosophy. It was this that led to the contradictions of Augustinian
thought. Not some necessary attribute of any necessary god.
2. GOD AND TIME
A. Time exists
B. But if god is to be omnipotent, time cannot
limit god in any way.
Unproven. God may be the source of time. If this is the case, time is
perfect because god is perfect. God is under no obligation to tinker with
his own perfection.
3. GOD, CREATION, AND TIME.
A. God created all, this is a basic claim
of many religions, Judaism, Christianity,
Hinduism, Islam. The Bible and Quran and
other sacred books are explicit about god's
creation of all.
B. If all is now, and for God there is no past,
and no future in essence, all is for practical
purposes now, and all that was, is and shall
be are now, existant.
C. Thus god created all now, at one time,
complete in all particulars to the last quark
and last fraction of a second in all
particulars and connections to all the rest of
the things in the Universe.
Unshown. The fact that god created all does not mean god created everything
in detail. If the big bang 'created' the unverse, it does not imply that
the big bang made my butane lighter.
4. OMNIGENESIS
This idea that god creates all now, totally,
in all physical particulars for all time to
the smallest details should have name as it is
a powerful concept that is destructive to so
many claims. Omnigenesis, creation of all
would be an apt term.
The famous debunker Martin Gardner noted that the need to create neologisms
like "class of omni-everything gods" and "omnigenesis" is one of the 5
hallmarks of the pseudo-scientific *crank.*
Since you have not proved that god must have created all particulars of all
things "totally, in all physical particulars for all time" there is no need
for some new word to describe that which you have not shown.
5. GOD AND OMNIBENEVOLENCE.
1. God is said to be good, all good, supremely
good. Often denoted by the word
omnibenevolent.
2. There is evil.
3. Evil comes in two type, natural evil,
drought, floods, hurricanes and moral evil,
evil deriving from acts of mankind, murder,
rape, lying as examples.
4. But if god made all man's acts to the last
detail including evil ones, then evil exists
only because god exists.
The above is a sloppy restatement of the Logical and Evidential Argument
from Evil. These are two arguments that work quite well until you get your
hands one them.
It would be nice if you left them alone. Your tinkering and your addition
of non-sequiturs and self-contradictory notions and useless neologisms does
nothing but mutilate the original ideas.
5. GOD AND OTHER CLAIMS ATTRIBUTES OF GOD
THAT FAIL HERE.
1. God is claimed to be loving, merciful,
and just.
And you've done nothing to show that god is not. See above.
7. GOD'S FREE WILL
A. If god creates all in one now
But you haven't shown this to be a logical necessity, hence the rest fails.
8. GOD AND TIME IN RETROSPECT AT THIS POINT.
A. Suppose we say we cannot have this, we must
rethink this.
You should read those words very carefully. That's exactly the point you're
at.
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: News: Atheism, Morality and Belonging in American Life |
18 Jul 2006 08:44:43 AM |
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Gandalf Grey wrote:
Garbage in, Garbage out.
Correct, everything YOU say is garbage.
You will never say anything that is worth listening
to because you lack all ability to think.
Logic is beyond you.
You are of no more importance than Duke.
Both of you repeat the same old errors again and again.
I have proven the OEC god cannot exist.
-----------
DOES GOD EXIST? STRONG ATHEISM'S ANSWER - NO.
1. OMNIGENESIS, DETERMINISM, FREE WILL, METAPHYSICAL
CHAOS AND THEOLOGICAL NIHILISM.
Omni - all, genesis - creation.
Omnigenesis = creation of all.
Here I shall coin a word for further discussion.
Omnigenesis means creation of all, to the smallest
physical detail. If god is in any way omniscient,
and creator of all, then he in fact creates all,
omnigenesis, to the smallest detail, all of creation
to the smallest quantum level material, to the smallest
Planck quantum distance, Planck quantum time, dimensions,
fields, everything, all of it. All that is, was, and
shall be and can be. All physics we know of and much
physics we do not as yet understand. And this god creates,
at higher levels, emergent qualities arising from these
basics create our physical world and us. This god creates
us, our actions, our consciousness, feelings, nature, mental
inclinations and surrounding environment. One man may
be a lawyer in California, another an illiterate peasant
in Bangladesh. One man may be good, another an evil
psychopath. Omnigenesis means god creates all things
and all of this and all men's actions and existance
to the smallest details. All we are and all we do to
the smallest detail possible is created knowingly,
and purposefully to the smallest possible degree.
Omnigenesis removes all possibility of free will.
2. THE OMNISCIENT, CREATOR GOD
God creates all, all our acts, inclinations, personalty,
to the smallest detail, this is extreme determinism.
God at the start of creation must look at what his
considered creation will create and decide, do I allow
this or that to happen?
"Do I make John Smith 13 billion years into the future
a man who is evil and damned or good and saved to life
eternal in heaven? All acts Smith does are decided by god.
Does Smith at 10:23 June 24, 1999 commit murder or not?"
God must look at that future and say yes, or no and then
create the world that will generate that future he has
personally and purposefully decided on. All acts of all
sentient beings are decided on and created in the smallest
possible detail, knowing, and purposefully by this omniscient
creator God from the begining of creation.
3. OMNIGENESIS DESTROYS FREE WILL AND COMPATIBALISM.
This destroys compatibilism, the doctrine god creates
all but we have free will, and even though god knows what
we do, he does not interfere with our free will to choose
what we do. Many people hold this doctrine is incoherent
and impossible that knowing what we do destroys free will.
But omnigenesis makes that argument moot anyway, we can
have no sort of free will at all if god creates all to
the smallest detail, and thus no sort of compatibilism
can be true. Compatibilism is now irrelevant and meaningless
as a dodge to explain way free will vs God's foreknowledge
of the future. God knows the future because he knowingly
creates its every tiniest detail.
4. THERE ARE 3 ASPECTS OF CREATOR GODS
OMNIGENESIS FORCES US TO CONSIDER.
A. The Clock maker, determinate universe, and foreknowledge
This is idea that god is omniscient, has foreknowledge
of the future because the universe is determinate.
That god somehow winds up the Universe and lets it go
and it goes on unfolding in a determinate manner, the
Deist god. The God of some natural theologies.
Laplace's demon is a thought experiment, a conceptual idea
invented by Pierre-Simon Laplace, the French Astronomer in
his work "Essai Philosophique sur les Probabilites" in 1820.
Laplace's demon is said to be able to know the future
relying on the Universe's explicit determinism to calculate
the future. God is theorized as just a sort of Laplacian
demon here. This god created a determinate Universe and
knows the future since he can calculate the future state
of the Universe from a starting state due specifically
to the determinate quality of the Universe. Since this
god creates the initial state of the Universe, all futures
states unfold from that and god can control future states
by choosing the apporpriate initial starting state
of the Universe. Omnigenesis again.
Here, in a determinate Universe we can have no free
will, not even in principle.
Omnigenesis means there is no wind up universe
that unfolds, the Deist style great clock maker or
Aristotelian prime mover/creator. All is created to
the smallest detail in a detailed and totally,
purposefully, decided manner. Every atom of the Universe is
is created in a set position in time, all atoms,
and all that derive from them are set at creation.
Omnigenesis is totally determinate in a different
manner, this sort of determinism of all is created at
once, the fate of all in the Universe is decided at
one and in all particulars even before creation actually
commenced. God here knows the future because he knowing
and personally created every aspect of the future, not
because it unfolds in a determinate manner from a known
starting point.
B. God and omnipotence and time.
If god is omnipotent,or even just magnipotent, greatly
powerful, he is beyond being affected by mundane
things. Time does not affect god, he created time and
God controls time, time does not control or affect
God. For God there is no past, present, future, just now.
This is God as claimed by Augustine and Boethius.
God out of time, transcendence to time is a standard
theological claim because of these men.
But again it's omnigenesis. God creates all. And there
is no past, or future, all is one big now. Thus all is
created at once, now, in all its finest details. We are
back to omnigenesis as above.
We are driven there starting with claims god is
omnipotent and considering an omnipotent god who
created all and that god's relation to mundane time.
Omnipotence implies sovereingty over time which
drives us to total omni-genesis. Omnipotence and
omniscience both destroy and possibility of free will
in the very strongest manner possible.
C. Omnigenesis - Creator of all and Omniscience
As seen above in 2., a god that is simple said to
be creator of all and omniscient even with no
particular theory how he knows all, out of time,
or creates a determinate word that unfolds, a God
with no explicit theory as to how he knows all,
also dooms free will in the strongest manner possible.
Just the fact this god is omniscience and creates all
is sufficient to create omnigenesis, This dooms all free
will even if we attempt to avoid mentioning how
god is theoretically omniscient to avoid being pinned
down by making an overt claim. Its no less destructive
to free will despite lack of specifity.
D. Thus we have three theories of creation, omniscience
1. Deterministic, clock maker style Universe.
The theoretical deterministic prime mover's world.
2. Omniscient - creator god.
3. Omnipotent god transcendent to time.
All 3 theories lead to total omnigenesis.
All 3 theories destroy any possible free will
totally in the strongest manner possible.
5. OMNIGENESIS AND METAPHYSICAL NIHILISM
A. God is alleged all good, totally good, omniscient,
creator of all. And the omni-everything creator
class of gods including the gods of Judaism, Islam,
Christianity and others have these attributes explicitly,
and also have other attributes.
B. These specific attributes
are to be found in various revelations, Quran, Bible
et al. Proof texts are used to make specific claims,
god is merciful, just, he wants us to be saved and
other similar claims.
C. God is just, merciful, he loves us and wants us to
be good and to be saved. God hates sin, evil and
punishes evil men for their acts, including eternal
damnation. And so on. Different religions may have
slightly different variations and emphasis on this
or that aspect of their god's abilities. Also involved
are more metaphysical considerations. God's perfection,
God as source of all morality, god's immutability.
But omnigenesis destroys all of this. Since God
creates all to the smallest atom, act, and inclination,
there is no room for love or mercy. Why create one
man good, saved and to have eternal life in heaven,
and the next man evil, damned and tortured in eternal
torment in the flames of hell for all eternity for
acts that god decided, planned and created in all
their minute details to the lowliest quark?
Why that then, if god loves us all is just and merciful?
Since free will means nothing in the strongest manner
imaginable, a god that loves us would create us all
saved, and good and to have life eternal in heaven
if that god is as claimed merciful, just and loving
and omnibenevolent. Since we have no free will its
all one and the same. Thus we would expect a world
where all are good and moral evil is never done by man.
Heaven, hell, sin, salvation, damnation lose all
coherent sense and meaning. Where is love in
creating one man evil and allow him to torment many
innocent victims? How can that be loving, merciful or
just?
Theologians have created many half-baked excuses, suffering
creates character, evils allow second order goods to exist,
a kindness done to a fellow viction of a genocidal murderer
like Hilter perhaps.
That all dissolves into a meaningless, incoherent nihilism,
a bewildering meaninglessness far beyond the supposed
meaninglessness of a materialistic, Atheistic world
without god, which many theists assert is the logical
end point of Atheism.
Here god is creator of grotesquely meaningless chaos.
A world without any meaning, a surreal Hieronymus
Bosch world of demons and angels and the damned,
heavens and hells with lakes of molten sulfur and
fiery flames and unrelenting torture for men who
were only toys of a relentlessly mad, and meaningless
monster god who created them damned, for reasons unknown,
and unknowable, and irrational to nihilistic extremes.
6. SOULS
And supposedly this god creates souls, which somehow,
are attached to our physical bodies and minds and
are part of the heart of our very existence. Then again,
along with our bodies, our minds, our acts, our inclinations,
god must have created these souls. But he also must have
created them in relationship to our physical body and its
created acts, acts created by god to the smallest details.
It is the soul that allegedly is damned or saved and lives
for ever, or some such, but again, all acts of ours are
created by omnigenesis to the smallest quark so god either also
creates a corresponding soul, damned or saved in parallel.
Or maybe not, who can tell with such an incoherent chaotic,
senseless, irrational system?
The doctrine of souls, confusing enough as is, now becomes
impossible to explain in any fashion. It makes no sense
in a physical world that is determinate to the most
exacting omnigenesistic manner, how does a soul fit
into that world?
With omnigenesis all bets are off, all supposed knowledge
is impossible and incoherent to extremes.
7. CHAOS, NIHILISM, IRRATIONALITY, UNREALITY OF ALL
We achieve then total, absolute, furious metaphysical nihilism.
God is mad, and nothing in reality, or metaphysics or any possible
afterlife can be trusted. All supposed systems of metaphysics,
philosophy, religion, theology and reality are destroyed until
the rubble of it all is sucked into a chaotic surreal abyss of
irrational metaphysics undreamed of by thinking man. Theism
at bottom is nihilism so total it is obviously wrong in all its
particulars.
Good, evil, sin, salvation, damnation, sin, souls, heaven,
hell, love, mercy, justice, theodicy, teleology, ontology,
all makes no sense in the strongest terms. the class of
omni-everything, creator Gods destroys everything
with corrosive finality.
Theology, metaphysics, ontology, epistemology, philosophy,
science, nothing makes the slightest sense in an omnigenesistic
world, with a god that destroys all it touches if we claim
this personal, concious god is all knowing and creates all.
God then is perfect intellectual nihilism.
This is In the end, taken to their logical ends are all
theology religion, and omni-everything, creator god class
religion can possibly hope to achieve. Utter madness
and total incoherence. Compared to this atheistic
materialism is mankind's only rational hope.
Materialism must be true, the only truth possible. The Grand
Gods of Grand Theologies not only self destruct, but destroy
everything else with such incredible thoroughness and totality
that they cannot possibly be truth or reality. The class of
creator, omni-everything gods are impossible in the strongest
terms.
There is no comparison, only with metaphysical materialism
and utter lack of these classes of gods can we find reality
reason and sanity. Systems that work and are rational. Creative
rather than nihilistic to the extreme that theology can be
show to be nihilistic and thus in the end, irrelevant to all
things.
This doctrine of omnigenesis destroys all and cannot possibly
be true. But all theology of omnipotent, omniscient creator
gods drive us to omnigenesis with logical and unrelenting
thoroughness. Those doctrines and claims that create a
omnigenetical god, omniscience, and creatorship of all,
omnipotence, time, foreknowledge of the future, combine to
create total total metaphysical nihilism. Multiple, overlapping
problems that cannot be fixed or explained away. Religion can never
be more than nihilism unless it abandons totally the doctrines
of omniscience, omnipotence, and creatorship of all things
by god. This utterly destroys the class of omni-everything
gods and all religions, Islam, Christianity, Brahmanistic
Hinduism, Judaism and all other religions built on the
doctrine that there is an omni-everything, creator god.
In the end, we have two stark and plain choices, sane
materialism, or total theological/metaphysical nihilism.
There is really then, only one choice to which we are driven
by logic and rationality.
God as creator of all, and omni-everything is impossible.
(End)
--
"Laughter is not a sin intrinsically, but it produces sin"
"Homilies - Adversus ebriosos et de resurrectione domini
nostri Jesu" - St. John Chrysostom
.
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| User: "Gandalf Grey" |
|
| Title: Re: News: Atheism, Morality and Belonging in American Life |
18 Jul 2006 12:06:38 PM |
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"wbarwell" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:12bppe81o9mer2f@corp.supernews.com...
Gandalf Grey wrote:
Garbage in, Garbage out.
Correct, everything YOU say is garbage.
Ad hom noted.
CAN GOD EXIST? STRONG ATHEISM SAYS NO.
Which is again a universal claim you haven't backed.
1.THE SELF DESTRUCTION OF THE CONCEPT OF
OMNIPOTENCE
A. Omnipotence is derived from Latin words
omni - all, potent - power, potency.
A word that is not included in the bible.
B. It thus means all potent, all powerful.
Not to the Hebrews. El Shaddai did not mean "all powerful" it meant "God of
the mountain"
Having all possible powers and abilities.
The Augustinians derived that belief from the heavy Greek influence on
philosophy. It was this that led to the contradictions of Augustinian
thought. Not some necessary attribute of any necessary god.
2. GOD AND TIME
A. Time exists
B. But if god is to be omnipotent, time cannot
limit god in any way.
Unproven. God may be the source of time. If this is the case, time is
perfect because god is perfect. God is under no obligation to tinker with
his own perfection.
3. GOD, CREATION, AND TIME.
A. God created all, this is a basic claim
of many religions, Judaism, Christianity,
Hinduism, Islam. The Bible and Quran and
other sacred books are explicit about god's
creation of all.
B. If all is now, and for God there is no past,
and no future in essence, all is for practical
purposes now, and all that was, is and shall
be are now, existant.
C. Thus god created all now, at one time,
complete in all particulars to the last quark
and last fraction of a second in all
particulars and connections to all the rest of
the things in the Universe.
Unshown. The fact that god created all does not mean god created everything
in detail. If the big bang 'created' the unverse, it does not imply that
the big bang made my butane lighter.
4. OMNIGENESIS
This idea that god creates all now, totally,
in all physical particulars for all time to
the smallest details should have name as it is
a powerful concept that is destructive to so
many claims. Omnigenesis, creation of all
would be an apt term.
The famous debunker Martin Gardner noted that the need to create neologisms
like "class of omni-everything gods" and "omnigenesis" is one of the 5
hallmarks of the pseudo-scientific *crank.*
Since you have not proved that god must have created all particulars of all
things "totally, in all physical particulars for all time" there is no need
for some new word to describe that which you have not shown.
5. GOD AND OMNIBENEVOLENCE.
1. God is said to be good, all good, supremely
good. Often denoted by the word
omnibenevolent.
2. There is evil.
3. Evil comes in two type, natural evil,
drought, floods, hurricanes and moral evil,
evil deriving from acts of mankind, murder,
rape, lying as examples.
4. But if god made all man's acts to the last
detail including evil ones, then evil exists
only because god exists.
The above is a sloppy restatement of the Logical and Evidential Argument
from Evil. These are two arguments that work quite well until you get your
hands one them.
It would be nice if you left them alone. Your tinkering and your addition
of non-sequiturs and self-contradictory notions and useless neologisms does
nothing but mutilate the original ideas.
5. GOD AND OTHER CLAIMS ATTRIBUTES OF GOD
THAT FAIL HERE.
1. God is claimed to be loving, merciful,
and just.
And you've done nothing to show that god is not. See above.
7. GOD'S FREE WILL
A. If god creates all in one now
But you haven't shown this to be a logical necessity, hence the rest fails.
8. GOD AND TIME IN RETROSPECT AT THIS POINT.
A. Suppose we say we cannot have this, we must
rethink this.
You should read those words very carefully. That's exactly the point you're
at.
.
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| User: "wbarwell" |
|
| Title: Re: News: Atheism, Morality and Belonging in American Life |
18 Jul 2006 02:51:45 PM |
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You are logic dyslexic
For that reason, you will always be
wrong about everything.
************************************************
GANDY's LOGIC DYSLEXIA
*************************************************
WBARWELL
Something cannot come from nothing.
Therefore something must have always existed
far back into infinity. There was never a
time when nothing did not exist.
Parmenides nailed this one.
Something always existed.
GANDY
Another unsupported assertion.
WBARWELL
Really, you are NOT going to actually think, are
you?
Something always existed, as Parmenides pointed
out, there must have been.
Why? Well if you cannot figure it out, your
ability to reason is impaired.
I can't help you here.
GANDY
Prove it, Poser.
***********************************************
WBARWELL
OMNISCIENCE VERSUS CREATORHOOD OF GOD
God is defined as creator of all in most
religions.
GANDY
But not all.
WBARWELL
What part of "most" are you incapable of reading
and understanding?
In the class of Omni-everything CREATOR gods, god
is, by definition, creator of all.
In Judaism, Islam, Christianity and Hinduism, he
is explicitly, creator of all. An omni-everything
creator god.
*************************************************
Gandalf Grey wrote:
You're assuming what you need to prove. The
question is what responsibility
does omniscience have toward the known?
WBARWELL
Computers don't have responsibility...
GANDY
Exactly my point. And your insults just make you
look weak, Barwell.
WBARWELL
God does.
GANDY
Not as a consequence of pure omniscience.
There's is nothing about knowing
qua knowing that implies responsibility.
WBARWELL
But god if omniscient, and is also dogmatically
supreme good, all good, omnibenevolent, God
therefore has responsibility to use his
omniscience and omnipotence to achieve good as
much as possible. You detach god from the claims
of goodness and that means your jibbering is
meaningless. Omniscience does not mean
responsible, supreme goodness does. You can't
detach god's supposed goodness and ignore it.
*************************************************
BARWELL
If a powerful computer from today's Universe
could predict tomorrow's Universe, it could
tell us what to do today to guarantee
tomorrow's outcome to our specifications.
Gandalf Grey wrote:
But it wouldn't be morally responsible, moron.
BARWELL
Its programmers would....
GADNDY
But it's programmers wouldn't know the future,
Moron. You're getting very confused again,
Barwell. Maybe it's time for you to put your
head between your legs.
BARWELL
If you have a computer that predicts the future,
you ask it to tell you what that future is. Its
a computer that predicts the future, right? If
its not what you want, you make initial condition
changes and check what that does until you get
what you want.
GANDY
And that STILL doesn't make a programmer omniscient
or the computer responsible.
BARWELL
What, the programmers are robots that do things with
the computer at random with no goal? Amazingly stupid.
*********************************************
GANDY
You assusme that time is a power. You'll have
to prove that.
WBARWELL
Time is what creates past, present, future.
GANDY
Unsupported assertion. You act as though time
is both prehensive and active
WBARWELL
I will not comment on this.
What is funny about it is, you will never figure
out why people are laughing at you.
***************************************************
WBARWELL
Obviously if god is alledgedly all powerful,
having all powers, but does not have a power,
omniscience, he cannot be all powerful, not
omnipotent. He lacks a power, omniscience
WBARWELL
If god is not omniscient, god can not
omnipotent.
GANDY
Prove it, Poser.
WBARWELL
Obviously if god is alledgedly all powerful,
having all powers, but does not have a power,
omniscience, he cannot be all powerful, not
omnipotent. He lacks a power, omniscience.
GANDY
Omniscience is not a power.
(This doesn't need comment.)
****************************************************
--
"Laughter is not a sin intrinsically, but it produces sin"
"Homilies - Adversus ebriosos et de resurrectione domini
nostri Jesu" - St. John Chrysostom
.
|
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| User: "Gandalf Grey" |
|
| Title: Re: News: Atheism, Morality and Belonging in American Life |
18 Jul 2006 03:05:38 PM |
|
|
"wbarwell" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:12bqeuc3b52sk5d@corp.supernews.com...
You are logic dyslexic
CAN GOD EXIST? STRONG ATHEISM SAYS NO.
Which is again a universal claim you haven't backed.
1.THE SELF DESTRUCTION OF THE CONCEPT OF
OMNIPOTENCE
A. Omnipotence is derived from Latin words
omni - all, potent - power, potency.
A word that is not included in the bible.
B. It thus means all potent, all powerful.
Not to the Hebrews. El Shaddai did not mean "all powerful" it meant "God of
the mountain"
Having all possible powers and abilities.
The Augustinians derived that belief from the heavy Greek influence on
philosophy. It was this that led to the contradictions of Augustinian
thought. Not some necessary attribute of any necessary god.
2. GOD AND TIME
A. Time exists
B. But if god is to be omnipotent, time cannot
limit god in any way.
Unproven. God may be the source of time. If this is the case, time is
perfect because god is perfect. God is under no obligation to tinker with
his own perfection.
3. GOD, CREATION, AND TIME.
A. God created all, this is a basic claim
of many religions, Judaism, Christianity,
Hinduism, Islam. The Bible and Quran and
other sacred books are explicit about god's
creation of all.
B. If all is now, and for God there is no past,
and no future in essence, all is for practical
purposes now, and all that was, is and shall
be are now, existant.
C. Thus god created all now, at one time,
complete in all particulars to the last quark
and last fraction of a second in all
particulars and connections to all the rest of
the things in the Universe.
Unshown. The fact that god created all does not mean god created everything
in detail. If the big bang 'created' the unverse, it does not imply that
the big bang made my butane lighter.
4. OMNIGENESIS
This idea that god creates all now, totally,
in all physical particulars for all time to
the smallest details should have name as it is
a powerful concept that is destructive to so
many claims. Omnigenesis, creation of all
would be an apt term.
The famous debunker Martin Gardner noted that the need to create neologisms
like "class of omni-everything gods" and "omnigenesis" is one of the 5
hallmarks of the pseudo-scientific *crank.*
Since you have not proved that god must have created all particulars of all
things "totally, in all physical particulars for all time" there is no need
for some new word to describe that which you have not shown.
5. GOD AND OMNIBENEVOLENCE.
1. God is said to be good, all good, supremely
good. Often denoted by the word
omnibenevolent.
2. There is evil.
3. Evil comes in two type, natural evil,
drought, floods, hurricanes and moral evil,
evil deriving from acts of mankind, murder,
rape, lying as examples.
4. But if god made all man's acts to the last
detail including evil ones, then evil exists
only because god exists.
The above is a sloppy restatement of the Logical and Evidential Argument
from Evil. These are two arguments that work quite well until you get your
hands one them.
It would be nice if you left them alone. Your tinkering and your addition
of non-sequiturs and self-contradictory notions and useless neologisms does
nothing but mutilate the original ideas.
5. GOD AND OTHER CLAIMS ATTRIBUTES OF GOD
THAT FAIL HERE.
1. God is claimed to be loving, merciful,
and just.
And you've done nothing to show that god is not. See above.
7. GOD'S FREE WILL
A. If god creates all in one now
But you haven't shown this to be a logical necessity, hence the rest fails.
8. GOD AND TIME IN RETROSPECT AT THIS POINT.
A. Suppose we say we cannot have this, we must
rethink this.
You should read those words very carefully. That's exactly the point you're
at.
.
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