On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 04:38:14 GMT, "Diana" <dianaiad@noyoudont.com>
wrote:

Of course I can. No argument there, but I already AM a 'moral' person

Then why do you need someone else's system of "morals" to know how to
live morally? Moral people don't get "morals" from a book, any more
than sighted people get to see what's in front of them from a book.
Being a moral person means that YOU have morals. As a part of
yourself. Like being sighted means that you can see. As part of
yourself (your eyes).

you have to tell me what becoming an atheist would do to make me a better
and happier person.

If you were a moral (not necessarily "better") person you wouldn't
have become a theist. You have it backwards. You can become more
educated, more in touch with reality, but if you don't have your own
morals, you can't "become moral", you can only learn how to act in a
moral way. You can travel in a plane, but you can't be a bird.

We have already established that I am a moral person.

You've claimed to be, but you haven't even attempted to establish that
your claim is true.

Does the thought of forcing a pregnant woman to
continue an unwanted pregnancy make you physically ill? Does the
thought of not allowing two consenting adults to get married, just
because they have the same sexual equipment, seem utterly daft to you?

I'm not going to be less likely to
steal or murder or lie or cheat or any of the other things people
generally
consider ethical if I suddenly cease to believe.

But if you were moral, you wouldn't be behaving morally because your
book tells you to, or because you're afraid of retribution, you'd be
doing so because you WERE moral.

At one time men played the part of women on the stage. And very
convincingly. But putting on a dress doesn't make a man a woman.

It may increase once you realize there is no other world to live for.

"May?" I doubt it. The cold hard fact is that theists do more volunteer
work
than atheists do. Of any sort.

Not according to actual statistics, only according to the claims of
theists. Atheist doctors are MORE likely to set up practice in poor
neighborhoods than Christian doctors.

Atheists are MORE likely to
give to charity than Christians. (One of the largest charities in the
world, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, is atheistic.)

And
atheists are FAR less likely to be found in prisons, and LESS likely
to divorce, than Christians. (Not that much difference in divorce
rates between atheists and Mormons, though - 21% to 24%. But
born-agains divorce at a much higher rate, with about 90% of their
divorces occurring AFTER they've been "saved".)
Divorce in the South
(the Bible Belt) - 27%. Divorce in the relatively "godless" Northeast
- 19%. (Numbers from the Barna group, a CHRISTIAN polling
organization.)

Sheer statistics mitigate against that

Against your claims, yes.

Not to mention that my time is already rather full
of things that need doing.

So have you, as Jesus commands you to do, sold your worldly goods and
given them to the poor? Oh, no, you still own at least a computer,
don't you?

When moral people realize that this is the only life you get, then you
may be inclined to make it the best possible.

I already am, John. We ARE supposed to make the very best of this life.

Not for yourself. When you do something wrong, you ask Jesus, or God,
for forgiveness. When WE do something wrong - which happens far less
often - we ask ONLY the person we wronged for forgiveness.

Do you really think the non-believer you wronged cares that you think
that Jesus forgives you? "Oh, as long as Jesus forgives you, I feel a
whole lot better that you ruined my life." Yes?

Like I said you fear death.

(shaking head..) You honestly don't get it, do you? there is nothing to
fear
about death, if you are an atheist.

Or a realist. Just ask any of us who have been actually, medically
dead. There IS nothing to fear, AFTER you die.

No punishment. No rewards, either, but
then you won't be there to miss 'em. Simple evanescence...poof. Gone. I
don't fear death. I DO believe that I will see my husband again.

Then why do Christians cry at funerals, if you believe that the
"departed" are far batter off than the survivors?

EVERY Christian
funeral ought to be a celebration of the deceased's ELEVATION.

Christians cry MUCH more at a funeral than, say, when someone's moving
to the other side of the country. Some little nagging doubt telling
you that you really *won't* ever see the person again?

I think that, just perhaps, you might be. I'm not the one who fears death.
I
think, though, that you do.

Dying, of course. Who wants to burn to death, drown slowly, lie in
agony for days or weeks? But death? Do you fear sleeping? Atheists
don't fear being dead, any more than we "feared" before we were
conceived.

You don't have to drink if you are an atheist.

True. But then what's the point of becoming one?

What's the point of being a Mormon?

Besides, they should pour beer back in the horse.

?? Beer doesn't come from horses. Is that what they are teaching now
in church?

Good heavens. Thus speaks someone who has never been within smelling
distance of either a brewery OR a horse ranch.

If you think the stuff that comes out of a commercial brewery is beer,
you need an education. (It *IS* closer to horse urine than it is to
turpentine, but it's not close to beer.) At least buy a bottle of
Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, to see that the only thing Bud and beer have
in common is liquidity - if you like grapefruit, that is. Or try a
real chocolate stout at a local micro brewery if you like chocolate.
Neither one tastes like Bud. (Or even like Samuel Adams, which is a
bit overrated, even though they make the attempt.)

So, dear sir, what do you offer me that would make it worth giving up
my
faith for?

So basically you are wanting to know if it is better to live with or
without a lie.

If you want to put it that way. Remember though: I don't believe it IS a
lie.

The 4-year-old doesn't believe that the monster in the closet IS just
his imagination. But it is, nonetheless. Anything that objectively
exists leaves objective evidence (that's the nature of objective
reality), so if your god existed there'd be objective evidence of that
existence, and no one's been able to produce any yet.

However, let's go with your perspective; you believe that there is no
god.

No, we have no belief in any god - mainly because we see no objective
evidence that any god objectively exists, and we see no need for any
god, or any belief in one. (Lack of belief is not belief in lack, any
more than bald is a hair color.)

When you die you pfft. All we have is this life to live as best we can.
So now you tell me; if this life IS all we have, and a lie allows you to
live it fully, well and happily, and the truth doesn't improve that
happiness, what's wrong with the lie?

It's a lie. Moral people are bothered by that. If it doesn't
bother you, just because it's a lie and for no other reason ...

If you believe you can fly, you will find out how
wrong you are when you leap off the building.

Bad analogy, sweetie. Consider; believing in a deity won't get you any
deader than NOT believing in one.

Pascal's Wager?

Let's say we're both wrong, and the real god loves
people who don't fall for religion, but particularly hates Christians
You suffer, we don't. (Anyone can make up stories - not everyone can
provide evidence that the stories are true.)

BTW, the FSM boils Mormons in hell until you're al dente - forever.
And no sauce.

It is always better to function from knowledge than myths, and lies,
and it is better to live in reality than in delusion.

Why?

Because living a deluded life is repugnant.