| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"mathew" |
| Date: |
04 Apr 2004 01:47:59 PM |
| Object: |
Re: OT - Linux Questions |
In article <o9fm60l5allgcusr72gi7afec3ejb09qca@4ax.com>,
Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote:
I'm not sure what the deal is with the Perl and Openoffice packages,
but I tried once again to load them and keep getting read errors, or
hardware errors. I wonder if the install program might be checking
some hardware at that point???
My guess is that they're both big packages, and once you get that far in
the install you're hitting some bad sectors on your hard drive. Unfortunately,
most Linux installs don't check the disk before doing the install.
You might want to try doing /sbin/fsck -cc -c /dev/hda1 (or whatever the
root partition device is) to do a non-destructive scan for bad sectors and
map them out.
mathew
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: OT - Linux Questions |
05 Apr 2004 05:29:49 PM |
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mathew <meta@pobox.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote:
I'm not sure what the deal is with the Perl and Openoffice packages,
but I tried once again to load them and keep getting read errors, or
hardware errors. I wonder if the install program might be checking
some hardware at that point???
My guess is that they're both big packages, and once you get that far in
the install you're hitting some bad sectors on your hard drive. Unfortunately,
most Linux installs don't check the disk before doing the install.
You might want to try doing /sbin/fsck -cc -c /dev/hda1 (or whatever the
root partition device is) to do a non-destructive scan for bad sectors and
map them out.
I cannot believe this, but it looks like the new 40GB drive I bought
won't support Linux. I've never encountered a drive that would only
work with one operating system before, but I'm looking at the box
right now, and under "System Requirements" the only operating
systems listed are Windows 98SE, Me, 2000, XP.
The hard drive preparation software that came with it is called
MaxBlast3, and there are no options for Linux or some foreign
operating system. It looks like it's some flavor of Windows or
nothing.
I'm not 100% sure yet that this is the case, and am still digging
around on some Linux forums and maxtor forums, but so far,
it looks like the new drive is gonna be unusable with Linux. If
that's the case, I can stick it in as secondary drive in my Windows
box, but I'll be a little bummed out and shocked that a hard drive
can't be partitioned for any operating system out there. What
were the people at Maxtor (or who actually makes the drives)
thinking of if that ends up being the case?
I have to admit that I'm partly at fault for not checking close
enough before I bought the drive to see if Linux would run on
it, but it still surprises me that it can't be partitioned for Linux
with the proper software, if it were available.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.
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| User: "SMChristenson" |
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| Title: Re: OT - Linux Questions |
05 Apr 2004 09:08:38 PM |
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On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 22:29:49 +0000, Elroy Willis wrote:
work with one operating system before, but I'm looking at the box right
now, and under "System Requirements" the only operating systems listed
are Windows 98SE, Me, 2000, XP.
Means squat. If every linux system had to be created from pieces that say
they support linux, nobody would be running linux. Probably 90%+ of
retail component boxes don't mention linux. It wouldn't be a bad idea to
get on the web and check the hardware compatibility sites before buying
components in the future though.
The hard drive preparation software that came with it is called
MaxBlast3, and there are no options for Linux or some foreign operating
system. It looks like it's some flavor of Windows or nothing.
You wouldn't generally want to run Windows file structures unless you have
something special in mind. I can't imagine why you would want to run the
enclosed CD EXCEPT for drive diagnostics. Just run the linux setup.
I'm not 100% sure yet that this is the case, and am still digging around
on some Linux forums and maxtor forums, but so far, it looks like the
new drive is gonna be unusable with Linux. If that's the case, I can
I find that so improbable that I want to say it is B.S. because I have
never had a problem with an IDE device: not CDs, CD-Rs, CD-RWs, ATAPI
Zips, or hard drives. It's a standard. But never say never unless you
have the data to be certain. Without rereading the thread, are you sure
you:
1. Verified your downloaded ISO with the MD5SUM?
2. Verified your CD burn?
3. Checked your hard drive for defects?
My guess is strongly with the CD or hard drive. I suppose you could have
memory problems that show up preferentially when installing huge files or
some even more improbable hardware error. A few runs of memtest86 never
hurt in that area.
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
|
| Title: Re: OT - Linux Questions |
06 Apr 2004 09:59:15 AM |
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SMChristenson <smchris@visi.com> wrote in alt.atheism
On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 22:29:49 +0000, Elroy Willis wrote:
work with one operating system before, but I'm looking at the box right
now, and under "System Requirements" the only operating systems listed
are Windows 98SE, Me, 2000, XP.
Means squat. If every linux system had to be created from pieces that say
they support linux, nobody would be running linux. Probably 90%+ of
retail component boxes don't mention linux. It wouldn't be a bad idea to
get on the web and check the hardware compatibility sites before buying
components in the future though.
The hard drive preparation software that came with it is called
MaxBlast3, and there are no options for Linux or some foreign operating
system. It looks like it's some flavor of Windows or nothing.
You wouldn't generally want to run Windows file structures unless you have
something special in mind. I can't imagine why you would want to run the
enclosed CD EXCEPT for drive diagnostics. Just run the linux setup.
I'm not 100% sure yet that this is the case, and am still digging around
on some Linux forums and maxtor forums, but so far, it looks like the
new drive is gonna be unusable with Linux. If that's the case, I can
I find that so improbable that I want to say it is B.S. because I have
never had a problem with an IDE device: not CDs, CD-Rs, CD-RWs, ATAPI
Zips, or hard drives. It's a standard. But never say never unless you
have the data to be certain. Without rereading the thread, are you sure
you:
1. Verified your downloaded ISO with the MD5SUM?
2. Verified your CD burn?
3. Checked your hard drive for defects?
Yep.
My guess is strongly with the CD or hard drive. I suppose you could have
memory problems that show up preferentially when installing huge files or
some even more improbable hardware error. A few runs of memtest86 never
hurt in that area.
Since sending that last message, I've talked to a tech at Maxtor, and
he told me that the drive should work with Linux. He pointed me to a
disk doctor download, and I used it to do a low level format and run a
bunch of tests on the drive. It checks out fine. No errors at all.
After doing all that, I tried installing Redhat again, and it still
craps out about 10 minutes into the installation with a hardware
error. I'll try again with the Devian ISO, and if it craps out as
well, I guess I'll try using a different CD drive next. The current
one is actually a DVD drive, but it's never had any problem reading
CD's before.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.
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| User: "SMChristenson" |
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| Title: Re: OT - Linux Questions |
07 Apr 2004 08:32:22 AM |
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On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 14:59:15 +0000, Elroy Willis wrote:
After doing all that, I tried installing Redhat again, and it still
craps out about 10 minutes into the installation with a hardware error.
I'll try again with the Devian ISO, and if it craps out as well, I guess
I'll try using a different CD drive next. The current one is actually a
DVD drive, but it's never had any problem reading CD's before.
Oh, me bad. Actually, more like getting old.
THAT COULD BE IT! We might have found the answer!
Let's see. I mentioned CD, CD-R, CD-RW in my previous post about how
wonderful linux is with IDE. BUT I forgot that I actually have had some
trouble with my DVD. I believe putting in a DVD -- which is fine. And
_then_ replacing the DVD with a regular CD, in which case, the driver
crashes with a nasty looping that causes hard drive thrash. Reboot to
clear.
Your symptoms may vary. But it wouldn't surprise me _at_all_ if you
came back and said installing from a regular CDROM worked fine. In which
case, I certainly wouldn't begrudge you tongue-lashing the Penguin a
little for your trouble.
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
|
| Title: Re: OT - Linux Questions |
07 Apr 2004 10:19:37 AM |
|
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SMChristenson <smchris@visi.com> wrote in alt.atheism
On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 14:59:15 +0000, Elroy Willis wrote:
After doing all that, I tried installing Redhat again, and it still
craps out about 10 minutes into the installation with a hardware error.
I'll try again with the Devian ISO, and if it craps out as well, I guess
I'll try using a different CD drive next. The current one is actually a
DVD drive, but it's never had any problem reading CD's before.
Oh, me bad. Actually, more like getting old.
THAT COULD BE IT! We might have found the answer!
Let's see. I mentioned CD, CD-R, CD-RW in my previous post about how
wonderful linux is with IDE. BUT I forgot that I actually have had some
trouble with my DVD. I believe putting in a DVD -- which is fine. And
_then_ replacing the DVD with a regular CD, in which case, the driver
crashes with a nasty looping that causes hard drive thrash. Reboot to
clear.
Your symptoms may vary. But it wouldn't surprise me _at_all_ if you
came back and said installing from a regular CDROM worked fine. In which
case, I certainly wouldn't begrudge you tongue-lashing the Penguin a
little for your trouble.
I don't think the CD drive is the problem. I stuck an old Western
Digital 2gig drive in the Linux box, and tried to load Redhat.
Worked on the first try! The install even asked for the 2nd Redhat
install disk, which was a milestone as far as installing goes. I'd
never gotten that far with the new 40G drive. So, since that seemed
to work, I stuck the 40G drive in as a secondary hard drive, and ran
the install again, and setup some additional filesystems on the
secondary.
I was not able to get everything I want on the 2G primary drive,
as far as software packages, and although the system is working okay,
I don't like it. The main drive is 10 years old or so, and it's LOUD!
The 40G secondary is whisper quiet.
I'm going to try mounting the /lib filesystem onto the second drive
since it seems to contain over 400 megs of stuff, and see what
happens. I could do the same thing with other directories like
/usr which have a lot of stuff in them. It would free up space on the
main drive and quiet things down a bit, but I'm not quite sure how big
to make the filesystems on the secondary drive.
Without having read any of the Redhat docs yet, I don't know if
it's possible to leave a chunk of free space on the 2nd drive, and
expand the filesystems as needed. The previous flavors of Unix
that I've used, aside from AIX, didn't have that option. Once you
created a filesystem, you couldn't add to its size in the future
with a single command.
I don't like doing things that way, but it's all I can think of for
now. There's something goofy about this new ATA drive.
I noticed that some people were complaining about an ATA
card which was supposed to come with the larger ATA drives,
but it was missing from the box, and I wonder exactly what that
is. The 40G model isn't supposed to need one, but the 100+
gig drives apparently need some ATA controller card which
you plug the drive into or something.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.
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| User: "SMChristenson" |
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| Title: Re: OT - Linux Questions |
07 Apr 2004 03:43:14 PM |
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On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 15:19:37 +0000, Elroy Willis wrote:
I don't think the CD drive is the problem. I stuck an old Western
Digital 2gig drive in the Linux box, and tried to load Redhat.
Worked on the first try! The install even asked for the 2nd Redhat
install disk, which was a milestone as far as installing goes. I'd
never gotten that far with the new 40G drive. So, since that seemed to
work, I stuck the 40G drive in as a secondary hard drive, and ran the
install again, and setup some additional filesystems on the secondary.
I was not able to get everything I want on the 2G primary drive, as far
as software packages, and although the system is working okay, I don't
like it. The main drive is 10 years old or so, and it's LOUD! The 40G
secondary is whisper quiet.
I'm going to try mounting the /lib filesystem onto the second drive
since it seems to contain over 400 megs of stuff, and see what happens.
I could do the same thing with other directories like /usr which have a
lot of stuff in them. It would free up space on the main drive and
quiet things down a bit, but I'm not quite sure how big to make the
filesystems on the secondary drive.
Without having read any of the Redhat docs yet, I don't know if it's
possible to leave a chunk of free space on the 2nd drive, and expand the
filesystems as needed. The previous flavors of Unix that I've used,
aside from AIX, didn't have that option. Once you created a filesystem,
you couldn't add to its size in the future with a single command.
I don't like doing things that way, but it's all I can think of for now.
There's something goofy about this new ATA drive. I noticed that some
people were complaining about an ATA card which was supposed to come
with the larger ATA drives, but it was missing from the box, and I
wonder exactly what that is. The 40G model isn't supposed to need one,
but the 100+ gig drives apparently need some ATA controller card which
you plug the drive into or something.
Well, back to "HUH?" Too bad. You _aren't_ having a happy linux
experience.
I'm running dual SCSIs on my desktop but _almost_ all IDEs on the other
machines are WDs, so you are reinforcing my prejudices there. (The
exception is, in fact, a 20 gig Maxtor I got cheap but it's been fine with
linux too.) Now that I think about it some more, there was something on
Slashdot a while back about current LG cdroms (maybe DVDroms?) having
something weird in their bios that caused trouble with linux -- caught my
attention both because it _was_ weird and because most of my drives are
earlier LGs that have held up great. But, again, I've never heard of an
IDE hard drive problem.
I haven't gotten one of the new serial ATA drives yet. I thought they
were supposed to have dual-interfaces for compatibility for a while. Just
can't speak to any issues there. I doubt that raw size is the problem.
(But then I've said that before....) In February I basically shoveled
everything out of my wife's case and built her a new machine. Bare metal
MondoRestore of her desktop to a 120 gig IDE went fine. Although, for now,
I only partitioned 30 gig. Neither of us could think of what she would do
with the other 90! :)
Resizing: Are you aware of Partition Magic on the Windows side? Yet
another advantage of burning a Knoppix linux ISO is that it contains what
is basically a free GUI Partition Magic clone, that, yes, works with
linux. Used to be on the menu. I guess they decided that was dangerous.
Last version I downloaded you have to open a root shell and enter
qtparted. Not only have I used it, I've used it (successfully) to expand
the primary partition of a removable test drive running XP!
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: OT - Linux Questions |
07 Apr 2004 04:46:39 PM |
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SMChristenson <smchris@visi.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
<snip>
I don't like doing things that way, but it's all I can think of for now.
There's something goofy about this new ATA drive. I noticed that some
people were complaining about an ATA card which was supposed to come
with the larger ATA drives, but it was missing from the box, and I
wonder exactly what that is. The 40G model isn't supposed to need one,
but the 100+ gig drives apparently need some ATA controller card which
you plug the drive into or something.
Well, back to "HUH?"
Yeah. That, and maybe messing with some BIOS settings like
"Fast PIO 4" mode, or "Ultra DMA mode 1," or something else.
Now that I've got a Linux system up and running, I'm a little
reluctant to start completely over, but maybe I will...
Too bad. You _aren't_ having a happy linux experience.
On the positive side of things, I've learned that you don't learn
very much about underlying things if everything runs smooth as silk
first time around the block...
Getting down into the nitty gritty, such as the BIOS, is a place many
people won't dare tread, but those who tread there learn some things
that others don't care about, or don't want to know...
"Just gimme a computer that works and does what it's supposed to
do," is what most people seem to care about...
I'm running dual SCSIs on my desktop but _almost_ all IDEs on the
other machines are WDs, so you are reinforcing my prejudices there.
You might not believe this, but I actually dug my 8gb drive out of the
garbage bin today. After doing some hard drive consolidation a couple
weeks ago, I ended up with three hard drives to spare, and the 8gb
drive was the biggest of all, "physically speaking." The case was
HUGE, and so I thought it was probably the oldest of them all, and so
I chunked it in the trash. Luckily, I skipped garbage day last week
because I was too lazy to get up at 6am to move the trash bin to the
front curb.
The drive was covered with all kinds of garbage and food juice,
beer drippings, etc, and I was reluctant to even pull it out of the
bin, but I decided to rescue it and it's now drying out with a fan
blowing on it, to dry out all the garbage juices that were covering
it. If it ends up working, I think I might send a letter to Quantum
Bigfoot TX, the makers of the drive, or maybe they're out of business
by now, I don't know.
It's a 5.25" drive case, but I'll bet there's a 3.25" drive hiding
underneath all that casing, but I can't be sure... It bears the
marking "ATX40R80."
(The exception is, in fact, a 20 gig Maxtor I got cheap but it's been fine
with linux too.) Now that I think about it some more, there was something
on Slashdot a while back about current LG cdroms (maybe DVDroms?)
having something weird in their bios that caused trouble with linux -- caught
my attention both because it _was_ weird and because most of my drives
are earlier LGs that have held up great. But, again, I've never heard of an
IDE hard drive problem.
I haven't gotten one of the new serial ATA drives yet.
The ATA drives are serial based?
I thought they were supposed to have dual-interfaces for compatibility
for a while. Just can't speak to any issues there.
I'm clueless as well with regards to these new ATA drives, and what
is required as far as hardware and software and BIOS support goes.
I doubt that raw size is the problem.
Same here. Worst case scenario is that the computer only recognizes
8gigs of the 40gig drive, at least I would think.
(But then I've said that before....) In February I basically shoveled
everything out of my wife's case and built her a new machine.
Did you actually throw anything in the trash bin and have to dig it
out later like I did? :)
Bare metal MondoRestore of her desktop to a 120 gig IDE went fine.
Although, for now, I only partitioned 30 gig. Neither of us could think
of what she would do with the other 90! :)
Resizing: Are you aware of Partition Magic on the Windows side?
No, never heard of it...
Yet another advantage of burning a Knoppix linux ISO is that it contains
what is basically a free GUI Partition Magic clone, that, yes, works with
linux. Used to be on the menu. I guess they decided that was dangerous.
Last version I downloaded you have to open a root shell and enter
qtparted. Not only have I used it, I've used it (successfully) to expand
the primary partition of a removable test drive running XP!
It allows you to resize filesystems on the fly?
That was one of the great things about AIX that I have experience
with in the past.
If a filesystem was running low on space, I could just enter the
following command from the root prompt, and not even have to
reboot the system..
chfs -a size=+2000 /usr
This would add 2000 blocks to the /usr filesystem on the fly.
I have to wonder if Redhat supports such a command, and if it
does, when I setup the filesystems on the second drive, if leaving
a large chunk of free space is okay, as long as it can be re-allocated
to the existing filesystems on the drive later on. Hmm... Do you
know?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.
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| User: "SMChristenson" |
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| Title: Re: OT - Linux Questions |
07 Apr 2004 11:00:46 PM |
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On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 21:46:39 +0000, Elroy Willis wrote:
Yeah. That, and maybe messing with some BIOS settings like "Fast PIO 4"
mode, or "Ultra DMA mode 1," or something else. Now that I've got a
Linux system up and running, I'm a little reluctant to start completely
over, but maybe I will...
I can't remember whether RH9 still has the traditional "DMA can really
screw up" warning in the appropriate config file anymore. I'm a big fan
of bare metal backups and trying upgrades. The downside is that you
forget what you are running if the evolving system has been up for a few
years! I have a "systems" book for the machines but not _every_ config
file!
Too bad. You _aren't_ having a happy linux experience.
On the positive side of things, I've learned that you don't learn very
much about underlying things if everything runs smooth as silk first
time around the block...
True. True. I _try_ to keep that edge.
You might not believe this, but I actually dug my 8gb drive out of the
garbage bin today. After doing some hard drive consolidation a couple
That's my inclination too. I still have a perfectly good laser printer
that I changed bottom rollers on myself stored away. Being over a decade
old, it isn't worth the electricity it burns to run it when little HP
toasters are several times faster. Weird.
The ATA drives are serial based?
That's what I understand. I suppose with advances in firewire and such it
isn't a problem but it does seem counterintuitive.
Same here. Worst case scenario is that the computer only recognizes
8gigs of the 40gig drive, at least I would think.
Saw the other thread. I'd have to think about that. The online manual
have any advice on optimal manual settings in such occasions?
(But then I've said that before....) In February I basically shoveled
everything out of my wife's case and built her a new machine.
Did you actually throw anything in the trash bin and have to dig it out
later like I did? :)
Well, actually, yeah a part of it. It spontaneously ate her 3 256 meg
simms!! Three years of use. Figured it was time for a new machine. PS
didn't show a regulator problem with a cheap tester, so yeah, the slot A
motherboard got tossed on principle. CPU is in the DSL web server. Other
parts got distributed around.
I have a '96 1.6 g WD in a dedicated FAX/message center that is still
working (with a bare-metal restore in the closet waiting for its
inevitable death.)
Resizing: Are you aware of Partition Magic on the Windows side?
No, never heard of it...
It allows you to resize filesystems on the fly?
Well, without reinstalling. I think Partition Magic does on the fly
resizing with Windows but I've run stuff like OS/2 and linux the last
decade. I've always had to floppy or CD boot my Partition Magic.
Unfortunately, they didn't follow linux from ext2 to ext3. And it is my
understanding you need a late version for XP because they tweaked NTFS.
That's why a free linux-based clone that's up-to-date is such a find.
If you ran qtparted from Knoppix, you'd be running the linux system live
off the Knoppix CD. Off the top of my head, I think parted wants to work
with unmounted partitions. "qt" refers to the toolkit that provides the
GUI for parted when you run qtparted.
I have to wonder if Redhat supports such a command, and if it does, when
I setup the filesystems on the second drive, if leaving a large chunk of
free space is okay, as long as it can be re-allocated to the existing
filesystems on the drive later on. Hmm... Do you know?
Should have waited until morning. Too late. :) I'm not aware of a
command like you mention but I _think_ fstab changes take place without
rebooting. One of the great things about unix, of course, is that you
don't have to do the alphabet juggle, so it's easy to carve a new
partition out of raw space while the machine is running and use it without
worrying about references moving around.
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: OT - Linux Questions |
08 Apr 2004 09:16:22 AM |
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SMChristenson <smchris@visi.com> wrote in alt.atheism
On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 21:46:39 +0000, Elroy Willis wrote:
Yeah. That, and maybe messing with some BIOS settings like "Fast PIO 4"
mode, or "Ultra DMA mode 1," or something else. Now that I've got a
Linux system up and running, I'm a little reluctant to start completely
over, but maybe I will...
I can't remember whether RH9 still has the traditional "DMA can really
screw up" warning in the appropriate config file anymore. I'm a big fan
of bare metal backups and trying upgrades. The downside is that you
forget what you are running if the evolving system has been up for a few
years! I have a "systems" book for the machines but not _every_ config
file!
I noticed that DMA mode was disabled in the BIOS when using the
original drive. I haven't tried disabling DMA mode with the 40GB
to see what might happen. I'm actually about ready to buy an
Ultra ATA card to see if it might fix the problem. I found some for
around $20 or so.
The ATA drives are serial based?
That's what I understand. I suppose with advances in firewire and
such it isn't a problem but it does seem counterintuitive.
If it's faster, who cares? <cough> I'm not completely convinced that
my 40GB drive needs an ATA card to plug into, but it sure doesn't seem
to be working glitch-free without one, at least not as a primary
drive...
Same here. Worst case scenario is that the computer only recognizes
8gigs of the 40gig drive, at least I would think.
Saw the other thread. I'd have to think about that. The online manual
have any advice on optimal manual settings in such occasions?
It gave some suggestions that I haven't tried yet, but I'm wondering
if getting a $20 Ultra ATA card might solve all the problems.
It's a gamble I guess. I could always use the new 40GB drive in
my Windows box as a secondary drive. I'm currently fiddling around
with video capture and could use the extra space.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.
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| User: "SMChristenson" |
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| Title: Re: OT - Linux Questions |
08 Apr 2004 07:55:04 PM |
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On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 14:16:22 +0000, Elroy Willis wrote:
It gave some suggestions that I haven't tried yet, but I'm wondering if
getting a $20 Ultra ATA card might solve all the problems.
Like I say, not my area of expertise but I'll follow the thread. My SCSI
adapter is pretty ancient even with a 2000 flash and I'm thinking fast IDE
or RAID IDE might be just as well next rebuild.
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: OT - Linux Questions |
09 Apr 2004 06:58:41 AM |
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SMChristenson <smchris@visi.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
It gave some suggestions that I haven't tried yet, but I'm wondering if
getting a $20 Ultra ATA card might solve all the problems.
Like I say, not my area of expertise but I'll follow the thread. My SCSI
adapter is pretty ancient even with a 2000 flash and I'm thinking fast IDE
or RAID IDE might be just as well next rebuild.
I ordered one yesterday. Should be here on Monday.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.
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