| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"maff" |
| Date: |
03 Nov 2003 04:23:40 AM |
| Object: |
Re: OT: NYT on Faith Decline in Civiloized World |
Marc Carter <psymzc@hofstra.edu> wrote in message news:<5VidnfPG9NIuQBeiXTWc-w@speakeasy.net>...
On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 11:29:16 -0400, Richard Uhrich wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/13/international/europe/13CHUR.html?hp
Faith Fades Where It Once Burned Strong By FRANK BRUNI
<quote>
The secularization of Europe, according to some political analysts, is
one of the forces pushing it apart from the United States, where
religion plays a potent role in politics and society, shaping many
Americans' views of the world.
Americans are widely regarded as more comfortable with notions of good
and evil, right and wrong, than Europeans, who often see such views as
reckless.
In France, which is predominantly Catholic but emphatically secular,
about one in 20 people attends a religious service every week, compared
with about one in three in the United States. </quote>
Niall Ferguson wrote an essay for the NYTimes Week in Review a while
Niall Ferguson
http://news.google.com/news?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+%22Niall+Ferguson%22&sa=N&tab=gn
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+%22Niall+Ferguson%22&sa=N&tab=nw
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+%22Niall+Ferguson%22&sa=N&tab=wd&cat=gwd%2FTop
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_epq=Niall%20Ferguson&safe=images&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_scoring=d&lr=&num=100&hl=en
back, in which he said that the reason the US is such an economic
powerhouse is because we, and not Europe, have maintained a Christian
"work ethic." (I wrote a letter to the Times asking whether working 60
hours a week and never seeing one's family is also part of that "ethic."
I also asked whether or not natural resources, requiring people to work
much longer, or anything else might have something to do with the
difference in economic output. Alas, they did not print it...)
It was another one of those "correlation is not evidence of causation"
problems that we hammer our stats students about, but that most of the rest
of creation just cannot seem to get.
This article in the Times is going to be fodder for every crank out
there. Everything good about the US, and everything bad about Europe, is
going to be attributed to differences in religious practice. It would be
really instructive to develop an amoral ethic, and measure whether or not
there are any differences between the average godless, heathen European
and the average pious and devout USAer.
I suspect strongly that there are no differences in any behavior other
than church-going and statements about religious affiliation.
m
.
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| User: "maff" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: NYT on Faith Decline in Civilized World |
13 Nov 2003 01:53:44 PM |
|
|
(maff) wrote in message news:<18510aff.0311030224.4d0c6d63@posting.google.com>...
Marc Carter <psymzc@hofstra.edu> wrote in message news:<5VidnfPG9NIuQBeiXTWc-w@speakeasy.net>...
On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 11:29:16 -0400, Richard Uhrich wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/13/international/europe/13CHUR.html?hp
Faith Fades Where It Once Burned Strong By FRANK BRUNI
<quote>
The secularization of Europe, according to some political analysts, is
one of the forces pushing it apart from the United States, where
religion plays a potent role in politics and society, shaping many
Americans' views of the world.
Americans are widely regarded as more comfortable with notions of good
and evil, right and wrong, than Europeans, who often see such views as
reckless.
In France, which is predominantly Catholic but emphatically secular,
about one in 20 people attends a religious service every week, compared
with about one in three in the United States. </quote>
Niall Ferguson wrote an essay for the NYTimes Week in Review a while
Niall Ferguson
http://news.google.com/news?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+%22Niall+Ferguson%22&sa=N&tab=gn
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+%22Niall+Ferguson%22&sa=N&tab=nw
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+%22Niall+Ferguson%22&sa=N&tab=wd&cat=gwd%2FTop
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_epq=Niall%20Ferguson&safe=images&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_scoring=d&lr=&num=100&hl=en
God, man and growth
Nov 13th 2003
From The Economist print edition
Two economists go where angels fear to tread
IF YOU want to avoid an argument over religion at your next dinner
party, you might suppose it safe to invite an economist or two. They,
of all people, could be expected to stick to Mammon. Or maybe not, if
a new paper* by Robert Barro, one of America's best-known economists,
and Rachel McCleary, a colleague at Harvard University, is any guide.
It explores the influence of religious belief and observance on
economic growth.
To be sure, this is not the first time that economists have held forth
on subjects that many people consider private. Gary Becker, a Nobel
laureate at the University of Chicago, is well known for applying
economic theory to questions such as whether marriage is economically
efficient, whether drug addiction is rational and how couples decide
how many children to have. Mostly, though, economists have so far left
religion alone. However, other students of society have not been shy
of offering ideas about religion and wealth. A century ago, Max Weber,
a founder of sociology, observed that the Protestant work ethic was
what had made northern Europe and America rich. Recently, Niall
Ferguson, a British historian at New York University, argued that
today's economic stagnation in Germany and other European countries
owes much to the decline of religious belief and church attendance
during the past four decades. The Protestant work ethic, he thinks, is
dead.
Robert Barro
http://news.google.com/news?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+%22Robert+Barro%22&sa=N&tab=gn
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+%22Robert+Barro%22&sa=N&tab=nw
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+%22Robert+Barro%22&sa=N&tab=wd&cat=gwd%2FTop
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_epq=Robert%20Barro&safe=images&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_scoring=d&lr=&num=100&hl=en
Rachel McCleary
http://news.google.com/news?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+%22Rachel+McCleary%22&sa=N&tab=gn
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+%22Rachel+McCleary%22&sa=N&tab=nw
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+%22Rachel+McCleary%22&sa=N&tab=wd&cat=gwd%2FTop
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_epq=Rachel%20McCleary&safe=images&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_scoring=d&lr=&num=100&hl=en
Gary Becker
http://news.google.com/news?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+%22Gary+Becker%22&sa=N&tab=gn
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+%22Gary+Becker%22&sa=N&tab=nw
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=+%22Gary+Becker%22&sa=N&tab=wd&cat=gwd%2FTop
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_epq=Gary%20Becker&safe=images&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&as_scoring=d&lr=&num=100&hl=en
back, in which he said that the reason the US is such an economic
powerhouse is because we, and not Europe, have maintained a Christian
"work ethic." (I wrote a letter to the Times asking whether working 60
hours a week and never seeing one's family is also part of that "ethic."
I also asked whether or not natural resources, requiring people to work
much longer, or anything else might have something to do with the
difference in economic output. Alas, they did not print it...)
It was another one of those "correlation is not evidence of causation"
problems that we hammer our stats students about, but that most of the rest
of creation just cannot seem to get.
This article in the Times is going to be fodder for every crank out
there. Everything good about the US, and everything bad about Europe, is
going to be attributed to differences in religious practice. It would be
really instructive to develop an amoral ethic, and measure whether or not
there are any differences between the average godless, heathen European
and the average pious and devout USAer.
I suspect strongly that there are no differences in any behavior other
than church-going and statements about religious affiliation.
m
.
|
|
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| User: "Nantko Schanssema" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: NYT on Faith Decline in Civilized World |
13 Nov 2003 02:28:16 PM |
|
|
[Off topic indeed]
maff91@yahoo.com (maff):
[snip]
A century ago, Max Weber,
a founder of sociology, observed that the Protestant work ethic was
what had made northern Europe and America rich. Recently, Niall
Ferguson, a British historian at New York University, argued that
today's economic stagnation in Germany and other European countries
owes much to the decline of religious belief and church attendance
during the past four decades. The Protestant work ethic, he thinks, is
dead.
Nah, it ain't dead, it just smells funny. While christianity is
dwindling rapidly in this part of the world, protestant work ethics
seem stronger than ever. People work like there's no tomorrow and save
their money as never before.
When we consider that western European economic climate closely that
of the the USA, where protestantism is supposedly in good health, I
don't really believe these economists.
I read Weber's _Die protestantische Ethik und die Geist des
Kapitalismus_ in University and I think this model is far too
one-dimensional. Factors such as colonialism and techological
innovation appear just as powerful, if not more so.
regards,
Nantko
--
The invisible and the nonexistent look very much alike. (Delos McKown)
http://www.xs4all.nl/~nantko/
.
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| User: "maff" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: NYT on Faith Decline in Civilized World |
14 Nov 2003 04:03:06 AM |
|
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Nantko Schanssema <nantko@xs4all.nl> wrote in message news:<0hp7rv05pi1lr552jccjgaq6vfr0oj0eg8@4ax.com>...
[Off topic indeed]
God, man and growth
http://www.economist.com/finance/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2208914
Nov 13th 2003
From The Economist print edition
Two economists go where angels fear to tread
IF YOU want to avoid an argument over religion at your next dinner
party, you might suppose it safe to invite an economist or two. They,
of all people, could be expected to stick to Mammon. Or maybe not, if
a new paper* by Robert Barro, one of America's best-known economists,
and Rachel McCleary, a colleague at Harvard University, is any guide.
It explores the influence of religious belief and observance on
economic growth.
maff91@yahoo.com (maff):
[snip]
A century ago, Max Weber,
a founder of sociology, observed that the Protestant work ethic was
what had made northern Europe and America rich. Recently, Niall
Ferguson, a British historian at New York University, argued that
today's economic stagnation in Germany and other European countries
owes much to the decline of religious belief and church attendance
during the past four decades. The Protestant work ethic, he thinks, is
dead.
Nah, it ain't dead, it just smells funny. While christianity is
dwindling rapidly in this part of the world, protestant work ethics
seem stronger than ever. People work like there's no tomorrow and save
their money as never before.
When we consider that western European economic climate closely that
of the the USA, where protestantism is supposedly in good health, I
don't really believe these economists.
I read Weber's _Die protestantische Ethik und die Geist des
Kapitalismus_ in University and I think this model is far too
one-dimensional. Factors such as colonialism and techological
innovation appear just as powerful, if not more so.
Yep. I don't know whether the Economist read their own article(s) in
the 1999 Millennium (December 25 1999) issue.
regards,
Nantko
.
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