| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
03 Jan 2005 02:49:00 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Prayer for Mark K. Bilbo |
Jason Gastrich wrote:
Please join me in prayer.
Dear Lord,
Bless Mark Bilbo. Let him get saved by your awesome grace. Thank
you for
loving him like you love everyone.
Reveal yourself to Mark. Compel him to study your Word and find You.
Thank
you for being a God that can be found.
Reveal your power to Mark. Show him that you can not only improve
his
earthly life and give it more meaning, but you can also save him from
life
without you in Hell.
Thank you for loving sinners. Thank you for loving us more than we
deserve.
Let us see You as You really are. Forgive our sins, Lord.
Bless Mark, today. Let him feel and know your presence, Lord. Help
him to
get to know You, your ways, and your will.
Praise You for your will and character. There is no other God like
You.
Let Mark realize that no matter what he has done, no matter how many
steps
away from You he has taken, it only takes one to return. Help him to
repent
from his sins to You and trust Jesus Christ for salvation.
In Jesus' name,
Amen
Matt. 6:5, 6 - And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the
hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in
the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say
unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter
into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father
which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward
thee openly.
.
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| User: "David" |
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| Title: Re: Prayer for Mark K. Bilbo |
03 Jan 2005 02:56:48 PM |
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wrote:
Matt. 6:5, 6 - And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the
hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and
in
the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I
say
unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter
into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father
which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward
thee openly.
I suppose, with regard to his Honda's gas consumption, he prayed in the
closet.
He was thus rewarded openly on I5.
Is that how it goes? Sorry i couldn't resist.
David
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Prayer for Mark K. Bilbo |
03 Jan 2005 03:16:00 PM |
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David wrote:
hdsienkiew...@yahoo.com wrote:
Matt. 6:5, 6 - And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the
hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues
and
in
the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I
say
unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest,
enter
into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy
Father
which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall
reward
thee openly.
I suppose, with regard to his Honda's gas consumption, he prayed in
the
closet.
He was thus rewarded openly on I5.
Is that how it goes?
Probably.
Sorry i couldn't resist.
Wel, it's okay, I'm sure, since that's when God was telling him jokes,
I supposed.
Jason's behavior is fully what one might expect of one who says he
talks to God, hears his voice, and gets indignant when asked what God
sounds like.
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Prayer for Mark K. Bilbo |
04 Jan 2005 06:05:41 PM |
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On 3 Jan 2005 12:49:00 -0800, wrote:
Jason Gastrich wrote:
Please join me in prayer.
Dear Lord,
Bless Mark Bilbo. Let him get saved by your awesome grace. Thank
you for
loving him like you love everyone.
Reveal yourself to Mark. Compel him to study your Word and find You.
Thank
you for being a God that can be found.
Reveal your power to Mark. Show him that you can not only improve
his
earthly life and give it more meaning, but you can also save him from
life
without you in Hell.
Thank you for loving sinners. Thank you for loving us more than we
deserve.
Let us see You as You really are. Forgive our sins, Lord.
Bless Mark, today. Let him feel and know your presence, Lord. Help
him to
get to know You, your ways, and your will.
Praise You for your will and character. There is no other God like
You.
Let Mark realize that no matter what he has done, no matter how many
steps
away from You he has taken, it only takes one to return. Help him to
repent
from his sins to You and trust Jesus Christ for salvation.
In Jesus' name,
Amen
Matt. 6:5, 6 - And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the
hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in
the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say
unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter
into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father
which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward
thee openly.
<Jason target obliterated>
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Prayer for Mark K. Bilbo |
04 Jan 2005 06:18:59 PM |
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"stoney" <stoney@the.net> wrote in message
news:3qbmt05a818363iia3b8q43apbandndgi0@4ax.com...
On 3 Jan 2005 12:49:00 -0800, wrote:
Jason Gastrich wrote:
Please join me in prayer.
Dear Lord,
Bless Mark Bilbo. Let him get saved by your awesome grace. Thank
you for
loving him like you love everyone.
Reveal yourself to Mark. Compel him to study your Word and find You.
Thank
you for being a God that can be found.
Reveal your power to Mark. Show him that you can not only improve
his
earthly life and give it more meaning, but you can also save him from
life
without you in Hell.
Thank you for loving sinners. Thank you for loving us more than we
deserve.
Let us see You as You really are. Forgive our sins, Lord.
Bless Mark, today. Let him feel and know your presence, Lord. Help
him to
get to know You, your ways, and your will.
Praise You for your will and character. There is no other God like
You.
Let Mark realize that no matter what he has done, no matter how many
steps
away from You he has taken, it only takes one to return. Help him to
repent
from his sins to You and trust Jesus Christ for salvation.
In Jesus' name,
Amen
Good gracious! He really wrote this *****?!? Wow, talk about delusional!
--
---------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Prayer for Mark K. Bilbo |
05 Jan 2005 03:23:18 PM |
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On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:18:59 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"stoney" <stoney@the.net> wrote in message
news:3qbmt05a818363iia3b8q43apbandndgi0@4ax.com...
On 3 Jan 2005 12:49:00 -0800, wrote:
Jason Gastrich wrote:
Please join me in prayer.
Dear Lord,
Bless Mark Bilbo. Let him get saved by your awesome grace. Thank
you for
loving him like you love everyone.
Reveal yourself to Mark. Compel him to study your Word and find You.
Thank
you for being a God that can be found.
Reveal your power to Mark. Show him that you can not only improve
his
earthly life and give it more meaning, but you can also save him from
life
without you in Hell.
Thank you for loving sinners. Thank you for loving us more than we
deserve.
Let us see You as You really are. Forgive our sins, Lord.
Bless Mark, today. Let him feel and know your presence, Lord. Help
him to
get to know You, your ways, and your will.
Praise You for your will and character. There is no other God like
You.
Let Mark realize that no matter what he has done, no matter how many
steps
away from You he has taken, it only takes one to return. Help him to
repent
from his sins to You and trust Jesus Christ for salvation.
In Jesus' name,
Amen
Good gracious! He really wrote this *****?!? Wow, talk about delusional!
We knew that. There's no reason for him to change.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
.
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| User: "Jason Gastrich" |
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| Title: Re: Prayer for Mark K. Bilbo |
04 Jan 2005 07:41:19 PM |
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I'm considering writing a Bible lesson on the need for BOTH public AND
private prayer. This is obviously the case in the Bible.
It seems that the atheists know the verse about praying in one's closet. Do
they know about other verses regarding prayer and public prayer? We'll see.
Luke 11:1-4 "
Now it came to pass, as He was praying in a certain place, when He ceased,
that one of His disciples said to Him, "Lord, teach us to pray, as John also
taught his disciples."
2So He said to them, "When you pray, say:
Our Father £in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.
£Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
4 And forgive us our sins,
For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
And do not lead us into temptation,
£But deliver us from the evil one."
Numbers 11:2 "Then the people cried out to Moses, and when Moses prayed to
the Lord, the fire was quenched."
Numbers 21:7 "Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, "We have
sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you; pray to the
Lord that He take away the serpents from us." So Moses prayed for the
people."
Deteronomy 9:26 "Therefore I prayed to the Lord, and said: 'O Lord GOD, do
not destroy Your people and Your inheritance whom You have redeemed through
Your greatness, whom You have brought out of Egypt with a mighty hand."
Need I go on? There are countless more scriptures that show people praying
in public.
There are countless other verses. In fact, to say that public prayer is
wrong is to say that every church service in the world where people open
their mouths and pray is in sin! This is, of course, absurd.
I conclude that the atheists who are supporting the belief that Christians
should ONLY pray in their closets are simply trying to scare Christians into
avoiding public prayer.
Christians should pray in public and in private.
By the way, the U.S. Congress opens each session with a public prayer.
Regards,
Jason
--
--------
Jesus Christ Saves Ministries
http://www.jcsm.org
Over 60,000 web pages!
John 8:36 reads, "Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be
free indeed."
Galatians 5:1 reads, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which
Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of
bondage."
ICQ#: 20731140
AIM: MrJasonGastrich
YIM: Jesus_Saved_Jason
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Prayer for Mark K. Bilbo |
04 Jan 2005 08:16:14 PM |
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"Jason Gastrich" <usenetspam1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3BHCd.47483$nP1.5190@twister.socal.rr.com...
I'm considering writing a Bible lesson on the need for BOTH public AND
private prayer. This is obviously the case in the Bible.
You just once again violated alt.atheism's charter, liar. Funny, didn't you
just post something where you said you'd never do that? What's it like to
be the poster boy for blatant dishonesty?
--
---------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Prayer for Mark K. Bilbo |
04 Jan 2005 10:01:59 PM |
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In our last episode <3BHCd.47483$nP1.5190@twister.socal.rr.com>, Jason
Gastrich lept out of the bushes shouting:
Need I go on? There are countless more scriptures that show people
praying in public.
You just actually proved the point. You're trying to claim the privileges
of the Christ instead of obeying explicit *commands you were given. Jesus
may have prayed publicly but according to your faith, he also walked on
water and raised the dead. Will you do that now?
None of the OT verses you posted *order you to do anything at all by the
way...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
.
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| User: "Jason Gastrich" |
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| Title: Re: Prayer for Mark K. Bilbo |
05 Jan 2005 02:50:22 AM |
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Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
In our last episode <3BHCd.47483$nP1.5190@twister.socal.rr.com>, Jason
Gastrich lept out of the bushes shouting:
Need I go on? There are countless more scriptures that show people
praying in public.
You just actually proved the point. You're trying to claim the
privileges of the Christ instead of obeying explicit *commands you
were given. Jesus may have prayed publicly but according to your
faith, he also walked on water and raised the dead. Will you do that
now?
None of the OT verses you posted *order you to do anything at all by
the way...
You don't understand Jesus' command or message.
Your an atheist who would like public prayer to go away. Am I right?
Jesus' message was regarding the heart; just as Davey said. He wants people
to be genuine as they pray and if people are only praying in public to draw
attention to themselves, as the ones were that he was correcting, then He
would prefer that they didn't pray in public.
I care about people and I care about atheists. This is why I will pray for
them.
Regards,
Jason
--
--------
Jesus Christ Saves Ministries
http://www.jcsm.org
Over 60,000 web pages!
John 8:36 reads, "Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be
free indeed."
Galatians 5:1 reads, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which
Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of
bondage."
ICQ#: 20731140
AIM: MrJasonGastrich
YIM: Jesus_Saved_Jason
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Prayer for Mark K. Bilbo |
05 Jan 2005 05:08:15 AM |
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"Jason Gastrich" <usenetspam1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:iTNCd.59575$gd.30565@twister.socal.rr.com...
snip
I care about people and I care about atheists. This is why I will pray
for
them.
*****. You only care about yourself, your persecution complex and your
"ministry" - Not to mention the occasional guitar student you scounge some
bucks from.
--
---------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Prayer for Mark K. Bilbo |
05 Jan 2005 09:43:23 AM |
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In our last episode <iTNCd.59575$gd.30565@twister.socal.rr.com>, Jason
Gastrich lept out of the bushes shouting:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
In our last episode <3BHCd.47483$nP1.5190@twister.socal.rr.com>, Jason
Gastrich lept out of the bushes shouting:
Need I go on? There are countless more scriptures that show people
praying in public.
You just actually proved the point. You're trying to claim the
privileges of the Christ instead of obeying explicit *commands you were
given. Jesus may have prayed publicly but according to your faith, he
also walked on water and raised the dead. Will you do that now?
None of the OT verses you posted *order you to do anything at all by the
way...
You don't understand Jesus' command or message.
Because, after all, only *you can understand being god's favorite lil'
sugar pants.
Your an atheist who would like public prayer to go away. Am I right?
As usual, you're wrong.
"Public" prayer is irrelevant. State support is the issue. I want
separation, not your strawman "oppression" lie.
Jesus' message was regarding the heart; just as Davey said. He wants
people to be genuine as they pray and if people are only praying in public
to draw attention to themselves, as the ones were that he was correcting,
then He would prefer that they didn't pray in public.
Yet strangely it says:
"But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast
shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which
seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."
I don't see any "unless you don't feel like it" in there.
Yet again, the people who just *insist we must all pay heed to the Bible
and who go on and on about "absolute morality" are the world's worst at
coming up with spin.
"What the deity *meant to say..."
I care about people and I care about atheists. This is why I will pray
for them.
You freakin' hypocrite.
Besides, this isn't even about "praying." This is about you loving "to
pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets" so you
can be seen and look oh-so-pious.
Of *course you want to spin that verse. It hits uncomfortably close home...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
.
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| User: "Uncle Davey" |
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| Title: Re: Prayer for Mark K. Bilbo |
05 Jan 2005 09:56:07 AM |
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Uzytkownik "Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> napisal w wiadomosci
news:MICdnbaO0YKOl0HcRVn-ow@megapath.net...
In our last episode <iTNCd.59575$gd.30565@twister.socal.rr.com>, Jason
Gastrich lept out of the bushes shouting:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
In our last episode <3BHCd.47483$nP1.5190@twister.socal.rr.com>, Jason
Gastrich lept out of the bushes shouting:
Need I go on? There are countless more scriptures that show people
praying in public.
You just actually proved the point. You're trying to claim the
privileges of the Christ instead of obeying explicit *commands you were
given. Jesus may have prayed publicly but according to your faith, he
also walked on water and raised the dead. Will you do that now?
None of the OT verses you posted *order you to do anything at all by
the
way...
You don't understand Jesus' command or message.
Because, after all, only *you can understand being god's favorite lil'
sugar pants.
Your an atheist who would like public prayer to go away. Am I right?
As usual, you're wrong.
"Public" prayer is irrelevant. State support is the issue. I want
separation, not your strawman "oppression" lie.
Jesus' message was regarding the heart; just as Davey said. He wants
people to be genuine as they pray and if people are only praying in
public
to draw attention to themselves, as the ones were that he was
correcting,
then He would prefer that they didn't pray in public.
Yet strangely it says:
"But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast
shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which
seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."
I don't see any "unless you don't feel like it" in there.
Why do you suppose it goes out of its way to give the narrative context as
being the Pharisees?
Numerous Biblical figures, including Christ, prayed publically, but they
were not Pharisees.
The minute prayer becomes a matter either of works in order to gain
righteousness by the doing of them, or even worse becomes a matter of
appearing righteous in the eyes of third parties, then the closet beckons.
Nevertheless, there is a place for proper public prayer. If we take James
5v14, which was the first place my bible fell open when I went looking for
examples, we see the elders being asked to pray over a man. Presumably they
are not all doing this in private, but sharing prayers over the sick man,
anointing him.
I'm sure it's possible to find numerous other examples in both the old and
new testament.
Uncle Davey
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Prayer for Mark K. Bilbo |
05 Jan 2005 11:05:54 AM |
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In our last episode <crh2qn$j55$0@pita.alt.net>, Uncle Davey lept out of
the bushes shouting:
Uzytkownik "Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> napisal w
wiadomosci news:MICdnbaO0YKOl0HcRVn-ow@megapath.net...
In our last episode <iTNCd.59575$gd.30565@twister.socal.rr.com>, Jason
Gastrich lept out of the bushes shouting:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
In our last episode <3BHCd.47483$nP1.5190@twister.socal.rr.com>,
Jason Gastrich lept out of the bushes shouting:
Need I go on? There are countless more scriptures that show people
praying in public.
You just actually proved the point. You're trying to claim the
privileges of the Christ instead of obeying explicit *commands you
were given. Jesus may have prayed publicly but according to your
faith, he also walked on water and raised the dead. Will you do that
now?
None of the OT verses you posted *order you to do anything at all by
the
way...
You don't understand Jesus' command or message.
Because, after all, only *you can understand being god's favorite lil'
sugar pants.
Your an atheist who would like public prayer to go away. Am I right?
As usual, you're wrong.
"Public" prayer is irrelevant. State support is the issue. I want
separation, not your strawman "oppression" lie.
Jesus' message was regarding the heart; just as Davey said. He wants
people to be genuine as they pray and if people are only praying in
public
to draw attention to themselves, as the ones were that he was
correcting,
then He would prefer that they didn't pray in public.
Yet strangely it says:
"But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast
shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father
which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."
I don't see any "unless you don't feel like it" in there.
Why do you suppose it goes out of its way to give the narrative context as
being the Pharisees?
Numerous Biblical figures, including Christ, prayed publically, but they
were not Pharisees.
Ah, yes. More spin.
The minute prayer becomes a matter either of works in order to gain
righteousness by the doing of them, or even worse becomes a matter of
appearing righteous in the eyes of third parties, then the closet beckons.
Nevertheless, there is a place for proper public prayer. If we take James
5v14, which was the first place my bible fell open when I went looking for
examples, we see the elders being asked to pray over a man. Presumably
they are not all doing this in private, but sharing prayers over the sick
man, anointing him.
Yet doesn't a single thing about going out in public so you can be seen
does it now?
I'm sure it's possible to find numerous other examples in both the old and
new testament.
Yet none of the ones presented from the NT appear to conflict with the
injunction against public prayer.
And far as the OT goes, if you're dispensationalist, you're trumped by the
church not being Israel...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
.
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| User: "Uncle Davey" |
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| Title: Re: Prayer for Mark K. Bilbo |
05 Jan 2005 12:31:40 PM |
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Uzytkownik "Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> napisal w wiadomosci
news:l6ednWb6puf3gEHcRVn-2Q@megapath.net...
In our last episode <crh2qn$j55$0@pita.alt.net>, Uncle Davey lept out of
the bushes shouting:
Uzytkownik "Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> napisal w
wiadomosci news:MICdnbaO0YKOl0HcRVn-ow@megapath.net...
In our last episode <iTNCd.59575$gd.30565@twister.socal.rr.com>, Jason
Gastrich lept out of the bushes shouting:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
In our last episode <3BHCd.47483$nP1.5190@twister.socal.rr.com>,
Jason Gastrich lept out of the bushes shouting:
Need I go on? There are countless more scriptures that show people
praying in public.
You just actually proved the point. You're trying to claim the
privileges of the Christ instead of obeying explicit *commands you
were given. Jesus may have prayed publicly but according to your
faith, he also walked on water and raised the dead. Will you do that
now?
None of the OT verses you posted *order you to do anything at all by
the
way...
You don't understand Jesus' command or message.
Because, after all, only *you can understand being god's favorite lil'
sugar pants.
Your an atheist who would like public prayer to go away. Am I right?
As usual, you're wrong.
"Public" prayer is irrelevant. State support is the issue. I want
separation, not your strawman "oppression" lie.
Jesus' message was regarding the heart; just as Davey said. He wants
people to be genuine as they pray and if people are only praying in
public
to draw attention to themselves, as the ones were that he was
correcting,
then He would prefer that they didn't pray in public.
Yet strangely it says:
"But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast
shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father
which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."
I don't see any "unless you don't feel like it" in there.
Why do you suppose it goes out of its way to give the narrative context
as
being the Pharisees?
Numerous Biblical figures, including Christ, prayed publically, but they
were not Pharisees.
Ah, yes. More spin.
Translation
"Here's an argument which shows that there's another side to the story, and
I can't argue with it, so I'll gloss over it as 'spin'."
The minute prayer becomes a matter either of works in order to gain
righteousness by the doing of them, or even worse becomes a matter of
appearing righteous in the eyes of third parties, then the closet
beckons.
Nevertheless, there is a place for proper public prayer. If we take
James
5v14, which was the first place my bible fell open when I went looking
for
examples, we see the elders being asked to pray over a man. Presumably
they are not all doing this in private, but sharing prayers over the
sick
man, anointing him.
Yet doesn't a single thing about going out in public so you can be seen
does it now?
Me no parsey sentencey.
I'm sure it's possible to find numerous other examples in both the old
and
new testament.
Yet none of the ones presented from the NT appear to conflict with the
injunction against public prayer.
What about where Christ says the Temple should be a House of Prayer?
Anyway, I am not going to push the matter. maybe you are right and every
single Church service I have ever seen is wrong. Maybe I'd better stop going
to Church and just stay at home praying.
And far as the OT goes, if you're dispensationalist, you're trumped by the
church not being Israel...
Well I'm not.
I'm not a Fundamentalist, strictly speaking, I'm a Calvinist.
Uncle Davey
And now, plagiarised shamelessly without prior consent from
www.puritansermons.com , is a delightful cameo essay on the subject of
public prayer by John Newton, the author of "Amazing Grace".
"It is much to be desired, that our hearts might be so affected with a sense
of divine things and so closely engaged when we are worshipping God, that it
might not be in the power of little circumstances to interrupt and perplex
us, and to make us think the service wearisome and the time which we employ
in it tedious. But as our infirmities are many and great, and the enemy of
our souls is watchful to discompose us, if care is not taken by those who
lead in social prayer, the exercise which is approved by the judgment may
become a burden and an occasion of sin . . .
Length of Prayers
The chief fault of some good prayers is, that they are too long; not that I
think we should pray by the clock, and limit ourselves precisely to a
certain number of minutes; but it is better of the two, that the hearers
should wish the prayer had been longer, than spend half the time in wishing
it was over. This is frequently owing to an unnecessary enlargement upon
every circumstance that offers, as well as to the repetition of the same
things. If we have been copious in pleading for spiritual blessings, it may
be best to be brief and summary in the article of intercession for others,
or if the frame of our spirits, or the circumstances of affairs, lead us to
be more large and particular in laying the cases of others before the Lord
respect should be had to this intention in the former part of the prayer.
There are, doubtless, seasons when the Lord is pleased to favour those who
pray with a peculiar liberty: they speak because they feel; they have a
wrestling spirit and hardly know how to leave off. When this is the case,
those who join with them are seldom wearied, though the prayer should be
protracted something beyond the usual limits. But I believe it sometimes
happens, both in praying and in preaching, that we are apt to spin out our
time to the greatest length, when we have in reality the least to say. Long
prayers should in general be avoided, especially where several persons are
to pray successively; or else even spiritual hearers will be unable to keep
up their attention. And here I would just notice an impropriety we sometimes
meet with, that when a person gives expectation that he is just going to
conclude his prayer, something not thought of in its proper place occurring
that instant to his mind, leads him as it were to begin again. But unless it
is a matter of singular importance, it would be better omitted for that
time.
Preaching in Prayers
The prayers of some good men are more like preaching than praying. They
rather express the Lord's mind to the people, than the desires of the people
to the Lord. Indeed this can hardly be called prayer. It might in another
place stand for part of a good sermon, but will afford little help to those
who desire to pray with their hearts. Prayer should be sententious, and made
up of breathings to the Lord, either of confession, petition, or praise. It
should be not only Scriptural and evangelical, but experimental, a simple
and unstudied expression of the wants and feelings of the soul. It will be
so if the heart is lively and affected in the duty, it must be so if the
edification of others is the point in view.
Method in Prayer
Several books have been written to assist in the gift and exercise of
prayer, and many useful hints may be borrowed from them. But a too close
attention to the method therein recommended, gives an air of study and
formality, and offends against that simplicity which is so essentially
necessary to a good prayer, that no degree of acquired abilities can
compensate for the want of it. It is possible to learn to pray mechanically,
and by rule; but it is hardly possible to do so with acceptance and benefit
to others. When the several parts of invocation, adoration, confession,
petition, etc., follow each other in a stated order, the hearer's mind
generally goes before the speaker's voice, and we can form a tolerable
conjecture what is to come next. On this account we often find that
unlettered people who have had little or no help from books, or rather have
not been fettered by them, can pray with an unction and savour in an
unpremeditated way, while the prayers of persons of much superior abilities,
perhaps even of ministers themselves, are, though accurate and regular, so
dry and starched, then they afford little either of pleasure or profit to
spiritual mind. The spirit of prayer is the fruit and token of the Spirit of
adoption.
The studied addresses with which some approach the throne of grace remind us
of a stranger's coming to a great man's door; he knocks and waits, sends in
his name, and goes through a course of ceremony, before he gains admittance,
while a child of the family uses no ceremony at all, but enters freely when
he pleases, because he knows he is at home. It is true, we ought always to
draw near the Lord with great humiliation of spirit, and a sense of our
unworthiness. But this spirit is not always best expressed or promoted by a
pompous enumeration of the names and titles of the God with whom we have to
do, or by fixing in our minds beforehand the exact order in which we propose
to arrange the several parts of our prayer. Some attention to method may be
proper, for the prevention of repetitions; and plain people may be a little
defective in it sometimes; but this defect will not be half so tiresome and
disagreeable as a studied and artificial exactness.
Peculiarities of Manner
Many -- perhaps most -- people who pray in public have some favourite word
or expression which recurs too often in their prayers, and is frequently
used as a mere expletive, having no necessary connection with the sense of
what they are speaking. The most disagreeable of these is when the name of
the blessed God, with the addition perhaps of one or more epithets, as
Great, Glorious, Holy, Almighty, etc., is introduced so often and without
necessity, as seems neither to indicate a due reverence in the person who
uses It, nor suited to excite reverence in those who hear. I will not say
that this is taking the Name of God in vain, in the usual sense of the
phrase: it is, however, a great impropriety, and should be guarded against.
It would be well if they who use redundant expressions had a friend to give
them a caution so that they might with a little care be retrenched; and
hardly any person can be sensible of the little peculiarities he may
inadvertently adopt, unless he is told of them.
There are several things likewise respecting the voice and manner of prayer,
which a person may with due care correct in himself, and which, if generally
corrected, would make meetings for prayer more pleasant than sometimes they
are. . . Very loud speaking is a fault, when the size of the place and the
number of the hearers do not render it necessary. The end of speaking (in
public) is to be heard: and when that end is attained a greater elevation of
the voice is frequency hurtful to the speaker, and is more likely to confuse
a hearer than fix his attention. I do not deny but allowance must be made
for constitution, and the warmth of the passions, which dispose some persons
to speak louder than others. Yet such will do well to restrain themselves as
much as they can. It may seem indeed to indicate great earnestness, and that
the heart is much affected; yet it is often but false fire. It may be
thought speaking 'with power', but a person who is favoured with the Lord's
presence may pray with power in a moderate voice; and there may be very
little of the power of the Spirit, though the voice should be heard in the
street and neighbourhood.
The other extreme of speaking too low is not so frequent; but, if we are not
heard, we might as well altogether hold our peace. It exhausts the spirits
and wearies the attention, to be listening for any length of time to a very
low voice. Some words or sentences will be lost, which will render what is
heard less intelligible and agreeable. If the speaker can be heard by the
person furthest distant from him, the rest will hear of course.
The tone of the voice is likewise to be regarded. Some have a tone in prayer
so very different from their usual way of speaking, that their nearest
friends, if not accustomed to them, could hardly know them by their voice.
Sometimes the tone is changed, perhaps more than once, so that if our eyes
did not give us more certain information than our ears, we might think two
or three persons had been speaking by turns. It is a pity that when we
approve what is spoken we should be so easily disconcerted by an awkwardness
of delivery: yet so it often is, and probably so it will be, in the present
weak and imperfect state of human nature. It is more to be lamented than
wondered at, that sincere Christians are sometimes forced to confess: 'He is
a good man, and his prayers as to their substance are spiritual and
judicious, but there is something so displeasing in his manner that I am
always uneasy when I hear him'.
Informality in Prayer
Contrary to this, and still more offensive, is a custom that some have of
talking to the Lord in prayer. It is their natural voice indeed, but it is
that expression of it which they use upon the most familiar and trivial
occasions. The human voice is capable of so many inflections and variations,
that it can adapt itself to the different sensations of the mind, as joy,
sorrow, fear, desire, etc. If a man was pleading for his life, or expressing
his thanks to the king for a pardon, common sense and decency would teach
him a suitableness of manner; and anyone who could not understand his
language might know by the sound of his words that he was not making a
bargain or telling a story. How much more, when we speak to the King of
kings, should the consideration of his glory and our own vileness, and of
the important concerns we are engaged in before him, impress us with an air
of seriousness and reverence, and prevent us from speaking to him as if he
was altogether such an one as ourselves! The liberty to which we are called
by the gospel does not at all encourage such a pertness and familiarity as
would be unbecoming to use towards a fellow-worm, who was a little advanced
above us in worldly dignity.
I shall be glad if these hints may be of any service to those who desire to
worship God in spirit and in truth, and who wish that whatever has a
tendency to damp the spirit of devotion, either in themselves or in others,
might be avoided."
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Prayer for Mark K. Bilbo |
05 Jan 2005 03:06:22 PM |
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In our last episode <crhbu3$743$0@pita.alt.net>, Uncle Davey lept out of
the bushes shouting:
Anyway, I am not going to push the matter. maybe you are right and every
single Church service I have ever seen is wrong. Maybe I'd better stop
going to Church and just stay at home praying.
Strawman.
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
.
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| User: "Uncle Davey" |
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| Title: Re: Prayer for Mark K. Bilbo |
07 Jan 2005 04:35:05 PM |
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|
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:tNCdneNl-OpZyEHcRVn-2g@megapath.net...
In our last episode <crhbu3$743$0@pita.alt.net>, Uncle Davey lept out of
the bushes shouting:
Anyway, I am not going to push the matter. maybe you are right and every
single Church service I have ever seen is wrong. Maybe I'd better stop
going to Church and just stay at home praying.
Strawman.
You can call it strawman, I call it plain old good-fashioned BACKSLIDING.
Uncle Davey
.
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| User: "Jason Gastrich" |
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| Title: Re: Prayer for Mark K. Bilbo |
11 Jan 2005 10:05:14 AM |
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|
Uncle Davey wrote:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:tNCdneNl-OpZyEHcRVn-2g@megapath.net...
In our last episode <crhbu3$743$0@pita.alt.net>, Uncle Davey lept
out of the bushes shouting:
Anyway, I am not going to push the matter. maybe you are right and
every single Church service I have ever seen is wrong. Maybe I'd
better stop going to Church and just stay at home praying.
Strawman.
You can call it strawman, I call it plain old good-fashioned
BACKSLIDING.
Uncle Davey
I call it: "The man has no rebuttal."
Doesn't anyone think it's rich that an atheist is telling Christians NOT to
pray in public? Duh. I think this is in his job description. He has
simply found an even richer way to try and condemn us. Nothing new here;
except his lack of support for his argument. I take that back. Nothing new
here at all.
Regards,
Jason
--
--------
Jesus Christ Saves Ministries
http://www.jcsm.org
Over 60,000 web pages!
John 8:36 reads, "Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be
free indeed."
Galatians 5:1 reads, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which
Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of
bondage."
ICQ#: 20731140
AIM: MrJasonGastrich
YIM: Jesus_Saved_Jason
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Prayer for Mark K. Bilbo |
11 Jan 2005 11:48:33 AM |
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|
In our last episode <_OSEd.52574$Ew6.43991@twister.socal.rr.com>, Jason
Gastrich lept out of the bushes shouting:
Uncle Davey wrote:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:tNCdneNl-OpZyEHcRVn-2g@megapath.net...
In our last episode <crhbu3$743$0@pita.alt.net>, Uncle Davey lept out
of the bushes shouting:
Anyway, I am not going to push the matter. maybe you are right and
every single Church service I have ever seen is wrong. Maybe I'd
better stop going to Church and just stay at home praying.
Strawman.
You can call it strawman, I call it plain old good-fashioned
BACKSLIDING.
Uncle Davey
I call it: "The man has no rebuttal."
Doesn't anyone think it's rich that an atheist is telling Christians NOT
to pray in public? Duh. I think this is in his job description. He has
simply found an even richer way to try and condemn us. Nothing new here;
except his lack of support for his argument. I take that back. Nothing
new here at all.
I didn't tell you any such thing. Your BIBLE tells you. No matter how much
you try to spin and twist what it says, the words are right there where
anybody can read them.
I do love how you people yap about how we *should read your Bible then get
***** when we do...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
-- Seneca the Younger
.
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| User: "Jason Gastrich" |
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| Title: Re: Prayer for Mark K. Bilbo |
11 Jan 2005 05:07:11 PM |
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Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
In our last episode <_OSEd.52574$Ew6.43991@twister.socal.rr.com>,
Jason Gastrich lept out of the bushes shouting:
Uncle Davey wrote:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:tNCdneNl-OpZyEHcRVn-2g@megapath.net...
In our last episode <crhbu3$743$0@pita.alt.net>, Uncle Davey lept
out of the bushes shouting:
Anyway, I am not going to push the matter. maybe you are right and
every single Church service I have ever seen is wrong. Maybe I'd
better stop going to Church and just stay at home praying.
Strawman.
You can call it strawman, I call it plain old good-fashioned
BACKSLIDING.
Uncle Davey
I call it: "The man has no rebuttal."
Doesn't anyone think it's rich that an atheist is telling Christians
NOT to pray in public? Duh. I think this is in his job
description. He has simply found an even richer way to try and
condemn us. Nothing new here; except his lack of support for his
argument. I take that back. Nothing new here at all.
I didn't tell you any such thing. Your BIBLE tells you. No matter how
much you try to spin and twist what it says, the words are right
there where anybody can read them.
I do love how you people yap about how we *should read your Bible
then get ***** when we do...
I'm not denying that passage is in the Bible.
I'm not *****.
I'm telling you that you are interpreting it incorrectly.
Regards,
Jason
--
--------
Jesus Christ Saves Ministries
http://www.jcsm.org
Over 60,000 web pages!
John 8:36 reads, "Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be
free indeed."
Galatians 5:1 reads, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which
Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of
bondage."
ICQ#: 20731140
AIM: MrJasonGastrich
YIM: Jesus_Saved_Jason
.
|
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
|
| Title: Re: Prayer for Mark K. Bilbo |
11 Jan 2005 05:18:25 PM |
|
|
"Jason Gastrich" <usenetspam1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:z_YEd.52620$Ew6.7365@twister.socal.rr.com...
sniop
I'm not denying that passage is in the Bible.
I'm not *****.
I'm telling you that you are interpreting it incorrectly.
Your opinion. What makes you right?
--
---------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
.
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| User: "Jason Gastrich" |
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| Title: Re: Prayer for Mark K. Bilbo |
12 Jan 2005 12:34:50 AM |
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|
Robibnikoff wrote:
"Jason Gastrich" <usenetspam1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:z_YEd.52620$Ew6.7365@twister.socal.rr.com...
sniop
I'm not denying that passage is in the Bible.
I'm not *****.
I'm telling you that you are interpreting it incorrectly.
Your opinion. What makes you right?
You wouldn't believe me if I told you. Right?
I've seen how you argue. I didn't even know what a strawman is.
I could call the night black and you would call it white.
Please don't play like you care about the answer when I know you could care
less. If one person is just here to argue with me, according to your past
behavior, it is you.
Regards,
Jason
--
--------
Jesus Christ Saves Ministries
http://www.jcsm.org
Over 60,000 web pages!
John 8:36 reads, "Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be
free indeed."
Galatians 5:1 reads, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which
Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of
bondage."
ICQ#: 20731140
AIM: MrJasonGastrich
YIM: Jesus_Saved_Jason
.
|
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
|
| Title: Re: Prayer for Mark K. Bilbo |
12 Jan 2005 07:21:23 AM |
|
|
In alt.atheism on Wed, 12 Jan 2005 06:34:50 GMT, "Jason Gastrich"
<usenetspam1@yahoo.com> let us all know that:
Robibnikoff wrote:
"Jason Gastrich" <usenetspam1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:z_YEd.52620$Ew6.7365@twister.socal.rr.com...
sniop
I'm not denying that passage is in the Bible.
I'm not *****.
I'm telling you that you are interpreting it incorrectly.
Your opinion. What makes you right?
You wouldn't believe me if I told you. Right?
That's because you're a proven liar, Jason. And that your
biblical scholarship is on-par with the shoddy ***** of McDowell,
Strobel, and Craig.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.
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| User: "Jason Gastrich" |
|
| Title: Re: Prayer for Mark K. Bilbo |
12 Jan 2005 11:20:54 AM |
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Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on Wed, 12 Jan 2005 06:34:50 GMT, "Jason Gastrich"
<usenetspam1@yahoo.com> let us all know that:
Robibnikoff wrote:
"Jason Gastrich" <usenetspam1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:z_YEd.52620$Ew6.7365@twister.socal.rr.com...
sniop
I'm not denying that passage is in the Bible.
I'm not *****.
I'm telling you that you are interpreting it incorrectly.
Your opinion. What makes you right?
You wouldn't believe me if I told you. Right?
That's because you're a proven liar, Jason.
No. I think it's because she has an aversion to the truth and to
Christians. If I'm wrong, present some evidence that shows Robyn submitting
to the truth and loving Christians. I've never seen it.
Regards,
Jason
And that your
biblical scholarship is on-par with the shoddy ***** of McDowell,
Strobel, and Craig.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
--
--------
Jesus Christ Saves Ministries
http://www.jcsm.org
Over 60,000 web pages!
John 8:36 reads, "Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be
free indeed."
Galatians 5:1 reads, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which
Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of
bondage."
ICQ#: 20731140
AIM: MrJasonGastrich
YIM: Jesus_Saved_Jason
.
|
|
|
| User: "Fred Stone" |
|
| Title: Re: Prayer for Mark K. Bilbo |
12 Jan 2005 11:32:27 AM |
|
|
"Jason Gastrich" <usenetspam1@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:W%cFd.52950$Ew6.16489@twister.socal.rr.com:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on Wed, 12 Jan 2005 06:34:50 GMT, "Jason Gastrich"
<usenetspam1@yahoo.com> let us all know that:
Robibnikoff wrote:
"Jason Gastrich" <usenetspam1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:z_YEd.52620$Ew6.7365@twister.socal.rr.com...
sniop
I'm not denying that passage is in the Bible.
I'm not *****.
I'm telling you that you are interpreting it incorrectly.
Your opinion. What makes you right?
You wouldn't believe me if I told you. Right?
That's because you're a proven liar, Jason.
No. I think it's because she has an aversion to the truth and to
Christians. If I'm wrong, present some evidence that shows Robyn
submitting to the truth and loving Christians. I've never seen it.
Nice try, oh dishonest one. "Submitting to the truth" and "loving
Christians" are two entirely different subjects.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
Support bacteria! That's all the culture many people will ever have.
.
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| User: "Jason Gastrich" |
|
| Title: Re: Prayer for Mark K. Bilbo |
13 Jan 2005 03:11:21 AM |
|
|
Fred Stone wrote:
"Jason Gastrich" <usenetspam1@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:W%cFd.52950$Ew6.16489@twister.socal.rr.com:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on Wed, 12 Jan 2005 06:34:50 GMT, "Jason Gastrich"
<usenetspam1@yahoo.com> let us all know that:
Robibnikoff wrote:
"Jason Gastrich" <usenetspam1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:z_YEd.52620$Ew6.7365@twister.socal.rr.com...
sniop
I'm not denying that passage is in the Bible.
I'm not *****.
I'm telling you that you are interpreting it incorrectly.
Your opinion. What makes you right?
You wouldn't believe me if I told you. Right?
That's because you're a proven liar, Jason.
No. I think it's because she has an aversion to the truth and to
Christians. If I'm wrong, present some evidence that shows Robyn
submitting to the truth and loving Christians. I've never seen it.
Nice try, oh dishonest one. "Submitting to the truth" and "loving
Christians" are two entirely different subjects.
I'm waiting for evidence . . . oh avoidant one.
JG
--
--------
Jesus Christ Saves Ministries
http://www.jcsm.org
Over 60,000 web pages!
John 8:36 reads, "Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be
free indeed."
Galatians 5:1 reads, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which
Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of
bondage."
ICQ#: 20731140
AIM: MrJasonGastrich
YIM: Jesus_Saved_Jason
.
|
|
|
| User: "Robibnikoff" |
|
| Title: Re: Prayer for Mark K. Bilbo |
13 Jan 2005 04:54:25 AM |
|
|
"Jason Gastrich" <usenetspam1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ZWqFd.53011$Ew6.30804@twister.socal.rr.com...
Fred Stone wrote:
"Jason Gastrich" <usenetspam1@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:W%cFd.52950$Ew6.16489@twister.socal.rr.com:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on Wed, 12 Jan 2005 06:34:50 GMT, "Jason Gastrich"
<usenetspam1@yahoo.com> let us all know that:
Robibnikoff wrote:
"Jason Gastrich" <usenetspam1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:z_YEd.52620$Ew6.7365@twister.socal.rr.com...
sniop
I'm not denying that passage is in the Bible.
I'm not *****.
I'm telling you that you are interpreting it incorrectly.
Your opinion. What makes you right?
You wouldn't believe me if I told you. Right?
That's because you're a proven liar, Jason.
No. I think it's because she has an aversion to the truth and to
Christians. If I'm wrong, present some evidence that shows Robyn
submitting to the truth and loving Christians. I've never seen it.
Nice try, oh dishonest one. "Submitting to the truth" and "loving
Christians" are two entirely different subjects.
I'm waiting for evidence . . . oh avoidant one.
I gave it already.
--
---------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
.
|
|
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
|
| Title: Re: Prayer for Mark K. Bilbo |
13 Jan 2005 06:06:04 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 05:54:25 -0500 in free.christians, Robibnikoff
("Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com>) said, directing the reply
to free.christians
"Jason Gastrich" <usenetspam1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ZWqFd.53011$Ew6.30804@twister.socal.rr.com...
Fred Stone wrote:
"Jason Gastrich" <usenetspam1@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:W%cFd.52950$Ew6.16489@twister.socal.rr.com:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on Wed, 12 Jan 2005 06:34:50 GMT, "Jason Gastrich"
<usenetspam1@yahoo.com> let us all know that:
Robibnikoff wrote:
"Jason Gastrich" <usenetspam1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:z_YEd.52620$Ew6.7365@twister.socal.rr.com...
sniop
I'm not denying that passage is in the Bible.
I'm not *****.
I'm telling you that you are interpreting it incorrectly.
Your opinion. What makes you right?
You wouldn't believe me if I told you. Right?
That's because you're a proven liar, Jason.
No. I think it's because she has an aversion to the truth and to
Christians. If I'm wrong, present some evidence that shows Robyn
submitting to the truth and loving Christians. I've never seen it.
Nice try, oh dishonest one. "Submitting to the truth" and "loving
Christians" are two entirely different subjects.
I'm waiting for evidence . . . oh avoidant one.
I gave it already.
Which of course raises the old question as to whether there is - in
principle - any possible evidence that Jason would accept as refuting
his beliefs - is there any possible brute fact, observation or
experiment that would persuade him that he's wrong.
Of course, Christians frequently ask the same question of atheists:
"what would persuade you there is a God?".
My answer to that one is "I don't know," but in the Christian context
at least, God is held to be omniscient and so knows precisely what
would persuade me that He exists. He's also omnipotent, so it would
cost Him nothing to provide that proof. And He loves me, so He's
motivated to do so.
That He does not is perhaps an eloquent comment on the existence of
such a God.
So is there anything that could persuade Jason he's wrong? Personally,
I think not - he has far too much of himself invested in his beliefs -
in many senses from the intensely personal to the financial, to permit
anything to dissuade him: it would amount to a form of suicide, and
one gathers that those who take that course have to be generally
speaking, very highly motivated.
I knew a guy like Jason once, a genuine C of E minister, the Revd.
Kevin Logan who at one time worked to the coal board as a press
officer, IIRC, and so was used to making and accepting extravagant
claims. Alas the press got him in the end as a result of a purported
survivor of Satanic Ritual Abuse taking a overdose (which she
subsequently died from later in hospital) in his vicarage while under
his putative care.
Based on my experience, the problem with people like Jason is not so
much what he does on usenet, the web, and so on, but that at some
point he's going to hook up with someone truly vulnerable, who's going
to take him at his word, and it'll all end in tears, but not for him
but for the poor ***** who makes the mistake of trusting him.
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: www.Video2CD.com. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
Market Your DVD to The World For Almost Nothing: www.instantdvd.tv
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Prayer for Mark K. Bilbo |
13 Jan 2005 09:14:05 AM |
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In our last episode <bdmcu0pvsp4ldar6hb0lnoi8kli2op1cl1@4ax.com>, Therion
Ware lept out of the bushes shouting:
My answer to that one is "I don't know," but in the Christian context at
least, God is held to be omniscient and so knows precisely what would
persuade me that He exists. He's also omnipotent, so it would cost Him
nothing to provide that proof. And He loves me, so He's motivated to do
so.
That He does not is perhaps an eloquent comment on the existence of such a
God.
Exactly my thoughts.
There isn't actually any reason for any non-believer to provide any kind
of "criteria" for what would convince them there is an
omniscient/omnipotent being out there. That being, by definition, already
knows and is already capable of doing so.
So either it does not want to do so or it does not exist...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
-- Seneca the Younger
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Prayer for Mark K. Bilbo |
13 Jan 2005 01:10:42 PM |
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"Jason Gastrich" <usenetspam1@yahoo.com> wrote in news:ZWqFd.53011
$Ew6.30804@twister.socal.rr.com:
Fred Stone wrote:
"Jason Gastrich" <usenetspam1@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:W%cFd.52950$Ew6.16489@twister.socal.rr.com:
Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on Wed, 12 Jan 2005 06:34:50 GMT, "Jason Gastrich"
<usenetspam1@yahoo.com> let us all know that:
Robibnikoff wrote:
"Jason Gastrich" <usenetspam1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:z_YEd.52620$Ew6.7365@twister.socal.rr.com...
sniop
I'm not denying that passage is in the Bible.
I'm not *****.
I'm telling you that you are interpreting it incorrectly.
Your opinion. What makes you right?
You wouldn't believe me if I told you. Right?
That's because you're a proven liar, Jason.
No. I think it's because she has an aversion to the truth and to
Christians. If I'm wrong, present some evidence that shows Robyn
submitting to the truth and loving Christians. I've never seen it.
Nice try, oh dishonest one. "Submitting to the truth" and "loving
Christians" are two entirely different subjects.
I'm waiting for evidence . . . oh avoidant one.
Look in a dictionary.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
Support bacteria! That's all the culture many people will ever have.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Prayer for Mark K. Bilbo |
13 Jan 2005 03:22:59 AM |
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Jason Gastrich wrote:
Fred Stone wrote:
sniperino
No. I think it's because she has an aversion to the truth and to
Christians. If I'm wrong, present some evidence that shows Robyn
submitting to the truth and loving Christians. I've never seen
it.
Nice try, oh dishonest one. "Submitting to the truth" and "loving
Christians" are two entirely different subjects.
I'm waiting for evidence . . . oh avoidant one.
Well, yeah, you wait, someone provides, you avoid and you pretend to
wait. No one's fooled, Gasbag.
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