| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Richo" |
| Date: |
12 Aug 2006 09:03:11 AM |
| Object: |
Re: Question about the Existence of God. |
Sphere wrote:
I'm trying to understand this argument about the existence of God
thing.
Yeah sure.
8-)
My problem is with the notion of existence. Does "the little green me
who don't exist who live under my bed" exist?
It seems to me that if it doesn't exist then I don't exist, and if it
does
exist then God exists. Put another way: Assume God is only a story
told by millions of people. I am only a story told by trillions of
cells.
Well, the way I look at it is that you are indeed a story told by
millions of cells - but that is not "only" what you are.
On another level you are the person that interacts with other persons -
your mother certainly noticed you being born for instance.
8-)
Real things exist in multiple levels in multiple contexts. God or Wodin
or Sherlock Holmes exist in very few and very limited contexts.
God, Wodin and Sherlock Holmes live *only* in stories - your cells
exist on a physical level and inter-relational level with other things
- as a component in a "coordinated whole" kind of way - and you exist
because all these component parts act in a coordinated way - when
something goes wrong with the coordination you get sick, get cancer or
die.
Now the Buddha was certainly on to something when he said "Self" is a
kind of illusion.
I just think its a different kind of illusion to a character from a
story - like God or Wodin or Sherlock Holmes.
There is certainly no fixed "You" - You are a label for a collection of
ever changing ever flowing sequence of events and substances which
cluster together and dance together for a time.
"You cannot step into the same river twice."
That doesnt mean there is no river - that there is no differnce between
a river which you can actually get wet in and a river that exists only
as an idea. Its saying that the nature of the real rivers existence is
harder to grasp than the simple person at first thinks.
Time is also a river - we are fluid - mountains are fluid - everything
moves and flows.
But a river a mountain or a human or a bacterium are still more real
than Gods, The United States of America or the value of the dollar.
Gods, nations and money ONLY exist while enough people believe in them.
We are made of stuff - they are concepts - made of thought.
Nothing is permanent, fixed, "real" for all time and for all viewpoints
- but some things are more real than others and some things are even
less real than you!
That's how I see things.
Mark.
.
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| User: "Richo" |
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| Title: Re: Question about the Existence of God. |
13 Aug 2006 08:28:53 PM |
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Jim07D6 wrote:
Piggybacking:
There is certainly no fixed "You" - You are a label for a collection of
ever changing ever flowing sequence of events and substances which
cluster together and dance together for a time.
"You cannot step into the same river twice."
That doesnt mean there is no river - that there is no differnce between
a river which you can actually get wet in and a river that exists only
as an idea. Its saying that the nature of the real rivers existence is
harder to grasp than the simple person at first thinks.
Time is also a river - we are fluid - mountains are fluid - everything
moves and flows.
But a river a mountain or a human or a bacterium are still more real
than Gods, The United States of America or the value of the dollar.
Gods, nations and money ONLY exist while enough people believe in them.
We are made of stuff - they are concepts - made of thought.
It also means that the river can't be stepped in by the same you
twice.
Of course - not the same just "sufficiently similar".
8-)
The thing is that our friend Sphere is doing what many
absolutist/fundamentalists do - they say "you cannot be 100% X
therefore X is a meaningless thing"
Common X's include knowledge wisdom ethical behaviour etc.
Its the "all or nothing fallacy"
Sphere's version of Buddhism is a bit to absolutist for my taste.
8-)
Mark.
.
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| User: "Sphere" |
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| Title: Re: Question about the Existence of God. |
13 Aug 2006 09:25:15 PM |
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Richo wrote:
Jim07D6 wrote:
Piggybacking:
There is certainly no fixed "You" - You are a label for a collection of
ever changing ever flowing sequence of events and substances which
cluster together and dance together for a time.
"You cannot step into the same river twice."
That doesnt mean there is no river - that there is no differnce between
a river which you can actually get wet in and a river that exists only
as an idea. Its saying that the nature of the real rivers existence is
harder to grasp than the simple person at first thinks.
Time is also a river - we are fluid - mountains are fluid - everything
moves and flows.
But a river a mountain or a human or a bacterium are still more real
than Gods, The United States of America or the value of the dollar.
Gods, nations and money ONLY exist while enough people believe in them.
We are made of stuff - they are concepts - made of thought.
It also means that the river can't be stepped in by the same you
twice.
Of course - not the same just "sufficiently similar".
8-)
The thing is that our friend Sphere is doing what many
absolutist/fundamentalists do - they say "you cannot be 100% X
therefore X is a meaningless thing"
Common X's include knowledge wisdom ethical behaviour etc.
Its the "all or nothing fallacy"
Sphere's version of Buddhism is a bit to absolutist for my taste.
8-)
Mark.
How so? Is it that I am absolutely unwilling to accept any
absolutes?
If we were to talk pragmatically of skillful means I think
you'd find I have a much different attitude, but the notion
of existence is not a notion of pragmatics -- it is a notion
of absolutes.
---
No essence. No permanence. No perfection. Only action.
.
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| User: "Richo" |
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| Title: Re: Question about the Existence of God. |
13 Aug 2006 11:19:52 PM |
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Sphere wrote:
Richo wrote:
Jim07D6 wrote:
Piggybacking:
There is certainly no fixed "You" - You are a label for a collection of
ever changing ever flowing sequence of events and substances which
cluster together and dance together for a time.
"You cannot step into the same river twice."
That doesnt mean there is no river - that there is no differnce between
a river which you can actually get wet in and a river that exists only
as an idea. Its saying that the nature of the real rivers existence is
harder to grasp than the simple person at first thinks.
Time is also a river - we are fluid - mountains are fluid - everything
moves and flows.
But a river a mountain or a human or a bacterium are still more real
than Gods, The United States of America or the value of the dollar.
Gods, nations and money ONLY exist while enough people believe in them.
We are made of stuff - they are concepts - made of thought.
It also means that the river can't be stepped in by the same you
twice.
Of course - not the same just "sufficiently similar".
8-)
The thing is that our friend Sphere is doing what many
absolutist/fundamentalists do - they say "you cannot be 100% X
therefore X is a meaningless thing"
Common X's include knowledge wisdom ethical behaviour etc.
Its the "all or nothing fallacy"
Sphere's version of Buddhism is a bit to absolutist for my taste.
8-)
Mark.
How so? Is it that I am absolutely unwilling to accept any
absolutes?
Nope. That is an admirable goal.
Keep it simple - get back to the river - take off your shoes and stick
them in the icy water.
I find the reality of the water greater than the reality of words
telling me not to believe in the reality of water!
Is this such a bad thing?
It's easy to see that words and ideas are deceptive - but the idea that
water is lying to me - based on nothing but words - troubles me.
Ever looked into the eyes of a Raven?
(Or the peregrine Falcon I admired yesterday - beautiful creature.)
You can see intelligence there - but it is an intelligence that
requires no words.
Don't you ever wish you could just forget the words?
You seem to believe - with great sincerity - that the philosophers know
that "existence is an illusion" but I cant help thinking "What would
the keen eyed Raven think?".
Buddhism was meant to be a flight from illusion - not a flight from
reality.
Mark.
.
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| User: "Richo" |
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| Title: Re: Question about the Existence of God. |
15 Aug 2006 04:16:33 AM |
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Richo wrote:
<snip>
Keep it simple - get back to the river - take off your shoes and stick
them in the icy water.
Your toes - not your shoes.
8-)
Mark.
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