Religions > Atheism > Re: Rabbi Lapin on "ethnic Jews whose faithis...SecularFundament...
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"david ford" |
| Date: |
08 Nov 2005 03:07:45 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Rabbi Lapin on "ethnic Jews whose faithis...SecularFundament... |
David Ewan Kahana wrote:
Robert J. Kolker wrote:
Bob wrote:
jesus...is he saying the jews killed christ??
Yup. It wasn't the Romans, it was the Jews. That is what he is saying.
It's clear he doesn't have the balls to put it in so many words,
but that's the way I read what he's saying.
For what reason(s) did Jesus-- who claimed to be a member of the
Judeo-Christian God Godhead trinity-- come to earth in human form to
die?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that the New
Testament says Jesus came to die a sacrificial death to make possible
payment for the sins/ "evil" deeds of everybody that has ever and will
ever live.
Instead of animal sacrifices seen in the Jewish Old Testament, Jesus
became a once-for-all-time sacrifice.
The way I read it, the "evil" deeds of me and you and the 6 billion
people presently alive and the people that have died and the people yet
to be born were what made it necessary for Jesus to die.
IOW, _every human_ played a part in Jesus' death.
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| User: "Ike" |
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| Title: Re: Rabbi Lapin on "ethnic Jews whose faithis...SecularFundament... |
10 Nov 2005 08:20:52 AM |
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"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-1131462465.458916.6620@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
David Ewan Kahana wrote:
Robert J. Kolker wrote:
Bob wrote:
jesus...is he saying the jews killed christ??
Yup. It wasn't the Romans, it was the Jews. That is what he is saying.
It's clear he doesn't have the balls to put it in so many words,
but that's the way I read what he's saying.
For what reason(s) did Jesus-- who claimed to be a member of the
Judeo-Christian God Godhead trinity-- come to earth in human form to
die?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that the New
Testament says Jesus came to die a sacrificial death to make possible
payment for the sins/ "evil" deeds of everybody that has ever and will
ever live.
Instead of animal sacrifices seen in the Jewish Old Testament, Jesus
became a once-for-all-time sacrifice.
The way I read it, the "evil" deeds of me and you and the 6 billion
people presently alive and the people that have died and the people yet
to be born were what made it necessary for Jesus to die.
IOW, _every human_ played a part in Jesus' death.
It was very inconvenient for people to sacrifice their animals for their
sins. Jesus was therefore a labor-saving appliance.
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| User: "David Ewan Kahana" |
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| Title: Re: Rabbi Lapin on "ethnic Jews whose faithis...SecularFundament... |
10 Nov 2005 09:51:23 AM |
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Ike wrote:
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-1131462465.458916.6620@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
David Ewan Kahana wrote:
Robert J. Kolker wrote:
Bob wrote:
jesus...is he saying the jews killed christ??
Yup. It wasn't the Romans, it was the Jews. That is what he is saying.
It's clear he doesn't have the balls to put it in so many words,
but that's the way I read what he's saying.
[snip]
Instead of animal sacrifices seen in the Jewish Old Testament, Jesus
became a once-for-all-time sacrifice.
[snip]
It was very inconvenient for people to sacrifice their animals for their
sins. Jesus was therefore a labor-saving appliance.
If you believe in such things YHVH told the Israelites practically
from the beginning: `Please, please, just let me rest. Stop it with
all the animal sacrifices and hymns already.'
I loathe, I spurn your festivals,
I am not appeased by your solemn assemblies
If you offer me burnt offerings, or your meal offerings
I will not accept them;
I will pay no heed
to the gifts of your fatlings
Spare me the sounds of your hymns
And let me not hear the music of your lutes,
But let justice well up like water
Righteousness like an unfailing stream.
Amos 5.21-24
David
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| User: "Mitchell Coffey" |
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| Title: Re: Rabbi Lapin on "ethnic Jews whose faithis...SecularFundament... |
12 Nov 2005 06:22:58 PM |
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David Ewan Kahana wrote:
Ike wrote:
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-1131462465.458916.6620@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
David Ewan Kahana wrote:
Robert J. Kolker wrote:
Bob wrote:
jesus...is he saying the jews killed christ??
Yup. It wasn't the Romans, it was the Jews. That is what he is saying.
It's clear he doesn't have the balls to put it in so many words,
but that's the way I read what he's saying.
[snip]
Instead of animal sacrifices seen in the Jewish Old Testament, Jesus
became a once-for-all-time sacrifice.
[snip]
It was very inconvenient for people to sacrifice their animals for their
sins. Jesus was therefore a labor-saving appliance.
If you believe in such things YHVH told the Israelites practically
from the beginning: `Please, please, just let me rest. Stop it with
all the animal sacrifices and hymns already.'
I loathe, I spurn your festivals,
I am not appeased by your solemn assemblies
If you offer me burnt offerings, or your meal offerings
I will not accept them;
I will pay no heed
to the gifts of your fatlings
Spare me the sounds of your hymns
And let me not hear the music of your lutes,
But let justice well up like water
Righteousness like an unfailing stream.
Amos 5.21-24
David
He does, however, elsewhere get into the smell of the roasting meat
wafting up to him. For instance, Genesis 8:20-21:
20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord and, taking some of all the
clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it.
21 The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never
again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every
inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I
destroy all living creatures, as I have done."
He also instructs us to burn offering to Him in Leviticus and Numbers,
at least.
Mitchell Coffey
But let justice well up like water
Righteousness like an unfailing stream.
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| User: "David Ewan Kahana" |
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| Title: Re: Rabbi Lapin on "ethnic Jews whose faithis...SecularFundament... |
13 Nov 2005 01:17:27 AM |
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Mitchell Coffey wrote:
David Ewan Kahana wrote:
Ike wrote:
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-1131462465.458916.6620@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
David Ewan Kahana wrote:
Robert J. Kolker wrote:
Bob wrote:
jesus...is he saying the jews killed christ??
Yup. It wasn't the Romans, it was the Jews. That is what he is saying.
It's clear he doesn't have the balls to put it in so many words,
but that's the way I read what he's saying.
[snip]
Instead of animal sacrifices seen in the Jewish Old Testament, Jesus
became a once-for-all-time sacrifice.
[snip]
It was very inconvenient for people to sacrifice their animals for their
sins. Jesus was therefore a labor-saving appliance.
If you believe in such things YHVH told the Israelites practically
from the beginning: `Please, please, just let me rest. Stop it with
all the animal sacrifices and hymns already.'
I loathe, I spurn your festivals,
I am not appeased by your solemn assemblies
If you offer me burnt offerings, or your meal offerings
I will not accept them;
I will pay no heed
to the gifts of your fatlings
Spare me the sounds of your hymns
And let me not hear the music of your lutes,
But let justice well up like water
Righteousness like an unfailing stream.
Amos 5.21-24
David
He does, however, elsewhere get into the smell of the roasting meat
wafting up to him. For instance, Genesis 8:20-21:
20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord and, taking some of all the
clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it.
21 The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never
again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every
inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I
destroy all living creatures, as I have done."
All perfectly true. I shouldn't have said practically from the
beginning.
But the events in Genesis supposedly took place before the laws
were given. Amos for example _might_ describe the state of matters
sometime around 800 BCE. The Israelites would have been in the
promised land by then.
I see `history' in tanakh and torah as being divided into three major
periods. The first starts after Genesis 1.1, and ends when Abram
and Sarai become Abraham and Sarah; this period is before the
covenant and without law, as such. The second period is after the
covenant is established and ends when Moshe receives the law on
Sinai. The third period is with the law, and in the Jewish version it
continues up until the present day.
He also instructs us to burn offering to Him in Leviticus and Numbers,
at least.
Mitchell Coffey
It's for sure that YHVH is full of contradictions, such as:
`Ehyeh asher ehyeh.' As you say, maybe he does retain
a fondness for the smell of burning shish kebabs. But given
what he said to Amos, about loathing all our festivals, I personally
wouldn't ever have been too sure that burning offerings would
avail one of very much ;->
David
But let justice well up like water
Righteousness like an unfailing stream.
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| User: "Robert J. Kolker" |
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| Title: Re: Rabbi Lapin on "ethnic Jews whose faithis...SecularFundament... |
13 Nov 2005 01:53:08 AM |
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David Ewan Kahana wrote:
It's for sure that YHVH is full of contradictions, such as:
`Ehyeh asher ehyeh.' As you say, maybe he does retain
a fondness for the smell of burning shish kebabs. But given
what he said to Amos, about loathing all our festivals, I personally
wouldn't ever have been too sure that burning offerings would
avail one of very much ;->
Gonifs and cheats thought they could bribe the Almighty to look the
other way while they screwed over orphans and widows. Naturally G-D did
not look favorably on offerings made by people with base intentions. So
ha Shem is really saying do not bother me with your pious gestures while
you continue to behave unrighteously.
Bob Kolker
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| User: "David Ewan Kahana" |
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| Title: Re: Rabbi Lapin on "ethnic Jews whose faithis...SecularFundament... |
13 Nov 2005 10:08:06 AM |
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Robert J. Kolker wrote:
David Ewan Kahana wrote:
It's for sure that YHVH is full of contradictions, such as:
`Ehyeh asher ehyeh.' As you say, maybe he does retain
a fondness for the smell of burning shish kebabs. But given
what he said to Amos, about loathing all our festivals, I personally
wouldn't ever have been too sure that burning offerings would
avail one of very much ;->
Gonifs and cheats thought they could bribe the Almighty to look the
other way while they screwed over orphans and widows. Naturally G-D did
not look favorably on offerings made by people with base intentions. So
ha Shem is really saying do not bother me with your pious gestures while
you continue to behave unrighteously.
Yes, of course. That's being said. That is all there in
Amos. But it seems to me more is being said, too. The
problem ha Shem is addressing through Amos at
(5.21-28) seems to be apostasy.
It seems some of the people of the northern kingdom are
worshipping at beth-el, (meaning, of course, house of god).
Beth-el was a Canaanite city. Idolatrous worship has returned,
there, after Solomon died and the kingom was divided.
In the south, idolators are travelling to beer-sheba. Amos warns
the people not to go to these places, for they will be destroyed.
Instead they should better seek ha Shem and live.
Preceding the lines I quoted from Amos about the festivals
are some very cold and very hard statements about what
the day of ha Shem will be like. We are given to believe we
really should not desire that that day will come. Following the
lines I quoted is the sharp question: `Did you bring offerings
to me in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel?'
This language is really very strong, I think. It really implies not
just that burnt offerings will not serve those who continue to
sin, it also seems to say that the offerings are not even necessary.
Yet as Mitchell says: in Vayikra and Bamidbar, we are told not
only to bring offerings when we think we have committed sins (violated
the law), but also precisely what offerings to bring; it should be a
female goat for a commoner, or a male goat, for the king. It is said
also, precisely what must be done with these sin offerings, how
the different parts must be handled, and so on.
We are also told, according to all of the commentators, I think,
from Rashi on down to Rambam, never to deny that Torah was
given to Moishe on Sinai. It is the word of ha Shem. The only problem
is that no one but Moishe was allowed to approach closely, and
no one saw what happened there on top of the mountain, what
Moshe really was given.
Perhaps, then, Amos didn't hear quite rightly, or perhaps I just don't
understand him rightly. But if those were the words of YHVH, the
implication to me is clear. He is not really interested in burnt
offerings at all. Justice and righteousness, whatever those may
be, are a lot more important than the scent of cooking.
I could say much more about what I think. What Amos reports is
really very mild in comparison to some of the things ha Shem has
to say in other placese.
But for me, YHVH remains completely unknowable. It isn't clear
if he's human or not, if he's joking or not, if he's a psychopathic
monster or a lonely child. Nothing is clear at all about him. If he
could be identified with anything at all, it must be with reality
itself.
That's why he remains for me a much more interesting figure
than the father or the son, or the holy spirit, as we see them
for example, in the Gospel of John (which I personally can't
read without a feeling of revulsion and not a little terror ... I
could never view myself as one of the insiders in the story in the
way some Christians may do.) There's just too much water
under the bridge for that.
David
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| User: "Robert J. Kolker" |
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| Title: Re: Rabbi Lapin on "ethnic Jews whose faithis...SecularFundament... |
13 Nov 2005 02:16:09 PM |
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David Ewan Kahana wrote:
But for me, YHVH remains completely unknowable. It isn't clear
if he's human or not, if he's joking or not, if he's a psychopathic
monster or a lonely child. Nothing is clear at all about him. If he
could be identified with anything at all, it must be with reality
itself.
In Hebrew the True Name of G-D is Being. YHWH using the vov consecutive
constriction translates: He Is.
Bob Kolker
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| User: "Robert J. Kolker" |
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| Title: Re: Rabbi Lapin on "ethnic Jews whose faithis...SecularFundament... |
12 Nov 2005 07:06:52 PM |
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Mitchell Coffey wrote:
Mitchell Coffey
But let justice well up like water
Righteousness like an unfailing stream.
The point being that all those sacrifices are vain in the absence of
obedience to the ethical commandments. No amount of cooked meat can make
up for screwing orphans and widows.
Bob Kolker
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| User: "Icarus" |
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| Title: Re: Rabbi Lapin on "ethnic Jews whose faithis...SecularFundament... |
08 Nov 2005 05:50:35 PM |
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david ford wrote:
The way I read it, the "evil" deeds of me and you and the 6 billion
people presently alive and the people that have died and the people
yet to be born were what made it necessary for Jesus to die.
IOW, _every human_ played a part in Jesus' death.
The way I read it, your god created evil. Whence cometh evil, if not from
him?
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