| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Mel" |
| Date: |
06 Apr 2004 01:06:55 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 21:15:55 +0300, Kai R <soberon@nospamo.luukku.com> wrote
in message <c4s7na$jp3$1@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi>:
Mel wrote:
On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 12:42:48 +0300, Kai R <soberon@nospamo.luukku.com> wrote
"Effortless" does not equal "without the aid of belonging to a 12 step
cult"
I've read zillions of accounts of how hard Richard had to fight to
kick his crack addiction in ARNA and ARAA. Effortless my *****.
the 12 step cult approach was the problem. it was causing all my
difficulties and hardship.
Yeah, right. Crack addiction of course had nothing to do with your
"difficulties and hardship".
that was the initial problem. the message out in society is that addiction
is impossible to get over without help.
so off to rehab i went. and *they* referred me to NA. i did not seek out NA
myself at all. i was sent there.
i recall vividly that i was unimpressed to learn that getting off addiction
involved God.
I was not interested in leading a moral life with God in charge of it.
I want to be in charge of my own life and lead it exactly the way *I* choose
to. I am not interested in doing God's will. I am only interested in doing
my will.
In fact I'd rather choose drug addiction over leading a life with God in
charge of it.
whenever I had a need to exercise willpower, I would be reminded that I was
powerless.
Bollocks. If your lack of willpower or inability to stop taking crack
were caused by NA,
yes, it was because even before I encountered NA for the first time, I had
encountered their message out in the public domain.
it wouldn't have been possible for you to get
addicted to crack before you went to NA.
crack is an addictive substance. what don't you understand about addiction?
it is substance, substance, substance. it's not a spiritual or mental
problem. it is substance, substance, substance.
how many people are addicted to eating bread?
non-addictive substances are non-addictive. addictive substances are
addictive.
[ this is an example of the absurdity of talking to a 12 step cultist. the
bleeding obvious is no longer obvious to them. ]
NA has turned the whole thing around (the wrong way). NA says, "oh no, it's
not crack, heroin, speed etc. that is the problem. it's you who is the
problem."
What rot! It may be true that some individuals are more prone to addiction
to some substances than others, but that does not negate the fact that the
overriding factor here is the inherent addictiveness of the substance.
People with crack addictions have it the worst. Worse than heroin, worse
than alcohol, marijuana, what have you. Crack is the most addictive drug
around. None compares to it in the addictiveness stakes.
Rational Recovery states that the disease of addiction is a myth. It states
that addiction is a natural part of our brain function. There is nothing to
cure. Nothing to fix. Everything is as it should be. (www.rational.org)
Having read Trimpey's discussion of it, I found it to match my experience of
addiction. I found it to be plausible. More plausible than thinking that
there's this disease that causes me to be an addict.
It is the substance that made me an addict, not something diseased in me.
Now did you really start abusing crack
what's with this silly distinction?
I've heard you mention this rot previously.
In your mind, you have this idea that there's crack use and crack abuse.
Crack is the most highly addictive substance on this planet.
There is no such thing as "use" or "moderate use" of crack. There is only
excessive, abusive use of crack till it kills you.
Please stop deceiving yourself that it is possible to "responsibly" use
crack. It does not exist.
So, to succinctly answer your question, my abuse of crack was from day one.
The problem I am talking about is that my efforts to quit using crack were
hindered not assisted by NA's message.
only after you started thinking you're addicted to crack
I was addicted from the first hit. fact.
and need to check out NA to see if they can help?
to repeat myself, I did not seek out NA's help. I was sent to NA by the
rehab. Not referred. Sent. I was transported (by the rehab) to NA 3 times a
week. I was made to go. Not going was not an option. I couldn't opt to stay
back at the rehab and play cards or read a book or play pool or hit on the
nurses.
And somehow you think you're the arbiter of who's stupid?
I have explained some of these things to you previously but you still fail
to comprehend them.
what's also in the archives is how I worked steps 1 - 3 without gaining any
relieve from my habit.
Umm, maybe someone should've told you the 12-step programs usually
have 12 steps.
Working all 12 of them would take a lifetime. I don't have that much time. I
needed relief from addiction in a shorter timeframe.
The first 3 are considered the foundation of the 12 step program. 1.
Powerless 2. Restoration to sanity 3. Hand over will to God.
But seriously, are you claiming NA for the fact that
you craved crack and decided to go back into using it?
in English please.
It seems someone's stupidity has already infected you. Seriously.
people who are desperate to get off drugs are usually willing to try almost
any approach.
Why would anyone be desperate to get off drugs if it's effortless like
you say?
just a stab here... because they do not *perceive* it to be effortless?
they consider themselves trapped and unable to quit?
drug addiction is a mental trap. nothing more.
it's not as if the person is forced or compelled to take drugs. they choose
to. repeatedly. until they die from it.
they *perceive* themselves to be compelled to take drugs.
they *perceive* that they cannot stop.
they see themselves as weak-willed, as lacking sufficient willpower to quit.
they believe that they cannot do it, that they need someone else to do it
for them. that's dependent, addict thinking.
NA essentially perpetuates this addict thinking.
NA says, instead of taking drugs, become dependent on us (and God) instead.
Fact is that most NA people relapse. Few of them go on to lead clean, drug
free lives.
It's all very well attending NA meetings and observing people there who
report that they are clean (some of them lie and later admit that they
lied), but that's not even the tip of the iceberg. For every person in a
meeting on any given night, there are 100 times that number of people who
once attended NA without gaining any benefit from NA whatsoever.
And then there are yet others who are now filling coffins slowly rotting
away. Some of those corpses belonged to people who were considered the
epitome of NA recovery, and yet they killed themselves when they relapsed.
I have witnessed these things firsthand.
Just quit. Better yet, if it's effortless to quit, then go
ahead and quit every time you've had a nice night with a crack pipe.
Just effortlessly quit for a week or two and then enjoy another
encanting evening with dope. Why all the hassle about quitting if it's
effortless?
Kai
you wish it worked like this, don't you?
What don't you understand about a substance being addictive?
--
smash yer modem, reboot, kill yerself
Mel the Defiler
member, ATJ regs
webmaster of atjfaq.com
http://www.atjfaq.com/
.
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| User: "GlennS" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
06 Apr 2004 03:44:31 PM |
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"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> <63n570dr6u19l0ng9jstoqoul09mbojuvv@4ax.com>
wrote in alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
crack is an addictive substance. what don't you understand about addiction?
How can crack be addictive, when, as you say, it's effortless
to stop smoking it?
[ this is an example of the absurdity of talking to a 12 step cultist. the
bleeding obvious is no longer obvious to them. ]
You obviously just bled on yourself. It's obvious to everyone
except you and your buddies.
Glenn S.
"Home Grown" 12 Step Recovery Website at...
http://members.aol.com/GlennS1956
Suffering = clinging to that which changes...
.
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| User: "Mel" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
06 Apr 2004 05:55:17 PM |
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On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 16:44:31 -0400, GlennS <GlennVA56@hotmail.com> wrote in
message <jv3670tohfg83gp62mimgql22djeq1p9f3@4ax.com>:
"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> <63n570dr6u19l0ng9jstoqoul09mbojuvv@4ax.com>
wrote in alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
crack is an addictive substance. what don't you understand about addiction?
How can crack be addictive, when, as you say, it's effortless
to stop smoking it?
so your definition of addiction is?
***
you do realise that an addiction is not something which absolutely compels
you do something, eh?
addiction merely strongly urges someone to take a certain action. that urge
can be resisted.
and yes, it is effortless to not DO something. that remains a fact. here's a
simple sentence to illustrate that for you:
"by not walking up the mountain this afternoon, I did not sweat."
***
drug addiction requires much effort. not taking drugs requires no effort.
I think that much is obvious to most people, except possibly a 12 step
cultist trying desperately to convince people to feel sorry for it.
I don't feel sorry for drunks and druggies. They don't need sympathy or
understanding. They need a swift, hard kick up the pants.
They're arseholes.
Speaking as someone who once was addicted, I think I'm qualified to render
this opinion.
[ this is an example of the absurdity of talking to a 12 step cultist. the
bleeding obvious is no longer obvious to them. ]
You obviously just bled on yourself. It's obvious to everyone
except you and your buddies.
Sorry, stepper. I won't have sympathy for you.
--
smash yer modem, reboot, kill yerself
Mel the Defiler
member, ATJ regs
webmaster of atjfaq.com
http://www.atjfaq.com/
.
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| User: "GlennS" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
06 Apr 2004 09:20:29 PM |
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"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote in alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 16:44:31 -0400, GlennS <GlennVA56@hotmail.com> wrote in
message <jv3670tohfg83gp62mimgql22djeq1p9f3@4ax.com>:
"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> <63n570dr6u19l0ng9jstoqoul09mbojuvv@4ax.com>
wrote in alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
crack is an addictive substance. what don't you understand about addiction?
How can crack be addictive, when, as you say, it's effortless
to stop smoking it?
so your definition of addiction is?
It's an addict thing. You wouldn't understand.
you do realise that an addiction is not something which absolutely compels
you do something, eh?
addiction merely strongly urges someone to take a certain action. that urge
can be resisted.
and yes, it is effortless to not DO something. that remains a fact. here's a
simple sentence to illustrate that for you:
"by not walking up the mountain this afternoon, I did not sweat."
Not applicable to the conversation at hand. You're not
addicted to walking up mountains.
You're right about one thing, though. The sentence was
"simple".
drug addiction requires much effort. not taking drugs requires no effort.
True. Unless you happen to be an addict.
I think that much is obvious to most people, except possibly a 12 step
cultist trying desperately to convince people to feel sorry for it.
I don't feel sorry for drunks and druggies. They don't need sympathy or
understanding. They need a swift, hard kick up the pants.
They're arseholes.
And you're not?
Speaking as someone who once was addicted, I think I'm qualified to render
this opinion.
[ this is an example of the absurdity of talking to a 12 step cultist. the
bleeding obvious is no longer obvious to them. ]
You obviously just bled on yourself. It's obvious to everyone
except you and your buddies.
Sorry, stepper. I won't have sympathy for you.
Why would you? I don't drink or use drugs.
I feel sorry for you, though. Your resentments are kicking
your *****, and clouding your every thought.
May you find peace.
Glenn S.
"Home Grown" 12 Step Recovery Website at...
http://members.aol.com/GlennS1956
Suffering = clinging to that which changes...
.
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| User: "Artfulcodger" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
06 Apr 2004 09:32:46 PM |
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GlennS wrote:
"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote in alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 16:44:31 -0400, GlennS <GlennVA56@hotmail.com>
wrote in message <jv3670tohfg83gp62mimgql22djeq1p9f3@4ax.com>:
"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> <63n570dr6u19l0ng9jstoqoul09mbojuvv@4ax.com>
wrote in alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
crack is an addictive substance. what don't you understand about
addiction?
How can crack be addictive, when, as you say, it's effortless
to stop smoking it?
so your definition of addiction is?
It's an addict thing. You wouldn't understand.
you do realise that an addiction is not something which absolutely
compels you do something, eh?
addiction merely strongly urges someone to take a certain action.
that urge can be resisted.
and yes, it is effortless to not DO something. that remains a fact.
here's a simple sentence to illustrate that for you:
"by not walking up the mountain this afternoon, I did not sweat."
Not applicable to the conversation at hand. You're not
addicted to walking up mountains.
You're right about one thing, though. The sentence was
"simple".
drug addiction requires much effort. not taking drugs requires no
effort.
True. Unless you happen to be an addict.
I think that much is obvious to most people, except possibly a 12
step cultist trying desperately to convince people to feel sorry for
it.
I don't feel sorry for drunks and druggies. They don't need sympathy
or understanding. They need a swift, hard kick up the pants.
They're arseholes.
And you're not?
Speaking as someone who once was addicted, I think I'm qualified to
render this opinion.
[ this is an example of the absurdity of talking to a 12 step
cultist. the bleeding obvious is no longer obvious to them. ]
You obviously just bled on yourself. It's obvious to everyone
except you and your buddies.
Sorry, stepper. I won't have sympathy for you.
Why would you? I don't drink or use drugs.
I feel sorry for you, though. Your resentments are kicking
your *****, and clouding your every thought.
May you find peace.
Glenn S.
"Home Grown" 12 Step Recovery Website at...
http://members.aol.com/GlennS1956
Suffering = clinging to that which changes...
Glen, Glen, Glen--carying on with Mel is like trying to argue with a
Jehovvah Witness--you are never going to win. They jsut won't quit.
Mike
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| User: "GlennS" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
06 Apr 2004 09:55:22 PM |
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"Artfulcodger" <mcbat@rogers.com> wrote in
alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
Glen, Glen, Glen--carying on with Mel is like trying to argue with a
Jehovvah Witness--you are never going to win. They jsut won't quit.
Mike
I'm finding that out. But I've figured out a way to practice
up for arguing with him. I'm going to go outside tonight and argue
for three hours with the stop sign down the road, about why I
shouldn't have to stop at that intersection.
Can't yall take him back to where he came from?
Glenn S.
"Home Grown" 12 Step Recovery Website at...
http://members.aol.com/GlennS1956
Suffering = clinging to that which changes...
.
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| User: "Artfulcodger" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
06 Apr 2004 10:19:57 PM |
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GlennS wrote:
"Artfulcodger" <mcbat@rogers.com> wrote in
alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
Glen, Glen, Glen--carying on with Mel is like trying to argue with a
Jehovvah Witness--you are never going to win. They jsut won't quit.
Mike
I'm finding that out. But I've figured out a way to practice
up for arguing with him. I'm going to go outside tonight and argue
for three hours with the stop sign down the road, about why I
shouldn't have to stop at that intersection.
Can't yall take him back to where he came from?
Glenn S.
"Home Grown" 12 Step Recovery Website at...
http://members.aol.com/GlennS1956
Suffering = clinging to that which changes...
You may find the stop sign is of a higher intellect.
Mike
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| User: "ur_droll" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
07 Apr 2004 03:12:48 AM |
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"Artfulcodger" <mcbat@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:xrKcc.23229$Bk31.20308@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
:
:
: GlennS wrote:
: > "Artfulcodger" <mcbat@rogers.com> wrote in
: > alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
: >
: >> Glen, Glen, Glen--carying on with Mel is like trying to argue with a
: >> Jehovvah Witness--you are never going to win. They jsut won't quit.
: >>
: >> Mike
: >
: > I'm finding that out. But I've figured out a way to practice
: > up for arguing with him. I'm going to go outside tonight and argue
: > for three hours with the stop sign down the road, about why I
: > shouldn't have to stop at that intersection.
: > Can't yall take him back to where he came from?
: >
:
: You may find the stop sign is of a higher intellect.
Couldn't have put it better myself...... I doubt the post would need
three hours to win the argument
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| User: "GlennS" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
07 Apr 2004 06:31:04 PM |
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"ur_droll" <who.gives@*****.co> wrote in alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
"Artfulcodger" <mcbat@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:xrKcc.23229$Bk31.20308@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
:
:
: GlennS wrote:
: > "Artfulcodger" <mcbat@rogers.com> wrote in
: > alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
: >
: >> Glen, Glen, Glen--carying on with Mel is like trying to argue with a
: >> Jehovvah Witness--you are never going to win. They jsut won't quit.
: >>
: >> Mike
: >
: > I'm finding that out. But I've figured out a way to practice
: > up for arguing with him. I'm going to go outside tonight and argue
: > for three hours with the stop sign down the road, about why I
: > shouldn't have to stop at that intersection.
: > Can't yall take him back to where he came from?
: >
:
: You may find the stop sign is of a higher intellect.
Couldn't have put it better myself...... I doubt the post would need
three hours to win the argument
That was a good one! One point for you!
Glenn S.
"Home Grown" 12 Step Recovery Website at...
http://members.aol.com/GlennS1956
Suffering = clinging to that which changes...
.
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| User: "ur_droll" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
08 Apr 2004 12:51:54 AM |
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"GlennS" <GlennVA56@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ma1970tl9aqpn42ahh53jsuqmvgeubac9p@4ax.com...
: "ur_droll" <who.gives@*****.co> wrote in alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
:
: >
: >"Artfulcodger" <mcbat@rogers.com> wrote in message
: >news:xrKcc.23229$Bk31.20308@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
: >:
: >:
: >: GlennS wrote:
: >: > "Artfulcodger" <mcbat@rogers.com> wrote in
: >: > alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
: >: >
: >: >> Glen, Glen, Glen--carying on with Mel is like trying to argue with a
: >: >> Jehovvah Witness--you are never going to win. They jsut won't quit.
: >: >>
: >: >> Mike
: >: >
: >: > I'm finding that out. But I've figured out a way to practice
: >: > up for arguing with him. I'm going to go outside tonight and argue
: >: > for three hours with the stop sign down the road, about why I
: >: > shouldn't have to stop at that intersection.
: >: > Can't yall take him back to where he came from?
: >: >
: >:
: >: You may find the stop sign is of a higher intellect.
: >
: >Couldn't have put it better myself...... I doubt the post would need
: >three hours to win the argument
:
: That was a good one! One point for you!
Good....... now ***** off
.
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| User: "GlennS" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
08 Apr 2004 04:26:32 AM |
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"ur_droll" <who.gives@*****.co> wrote in alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
"GlennS" <GlennVA56@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ma1970tl9aqpn42ahh53jsuqmvgeubac9p@4ax.com...
: "ur_droll" <who.gives@*****.co> wrote in alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
:
: >
: >"Artfulcodger" <mcbat@rogers.com> wrote in message
: >news:xrKcc.23229$Bk31.20308@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
: >:
: >:
: >: GlennS wrote:
: >: > "Artfulcodger" <mcbat@rogers.com> wrote in
: >: > alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
: >: >
: >: >> Glen, Glen, Glen--carying on with Mel is like trying to argue with a
: >: >> Jehovvah Witness--you are never going to win. They jsut won't quit.
: >: >>
: >: >> Mike
: >: >
: >: > I'm finding that out. But I've figured out a way to practice
: >: > up for arguing with him. I'm going to go outside tonight and argue
: >: > for three hours with the stop sign down the road, about why I
: >: > shouldn't have to stop at that intersection.
: >: > Can't yall take him back to where he came from?
: >: >
: >:
: >: You may find the stop sign is of a higher intellect.
: >
: >Couldn't have put it better myself...... I doubt the post would need
: >three hours to win the argument
:
: That was a good one! One point for you!
Good....... now ***** off
Better to be *****, than to be pissed on.
Glenn S.
"Home Grown" 12 Step Recovery Website at...
http://members.aol.com/GlennS1956
Suffering = clinging to that which changes...
.
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| User: "Pollywolly" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
07 Apr 2004 04:43:46 AM |
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Artfulcodger wrote:
GlennS wrote:
"Artfulcodger" <mcbat@rogers.com> wrote in
alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
Glen, Glen, Glen--carying on with Mel is like trying to argue with a
Jehovvah Witness--you are never going to win. They jsut won't quit.
Mike
I'm finding that out. But I've figured out a way to practice
up for arguing with him. I'm going to go outside tonight and argue
for three hours with the stop sign down the road, about why I
shouldn't have to stop at that intersection.
Can't yall take him back to where he came from?
Glenn S.
"Home Grown" 12 Step Recovery Website at...
http://members.aol.com/GlennS1956
Suffering = clinging to that which changes...
You may find the stop sign is of a higher intellect.
Mike
Are you saying that Glenn is dumber than a post?
--
______________________________
Polly
Girlylicious Sweetheart of ATJ
Loving stupid people since April 2003
www.atjfaq.com
.
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| User: "ur_droll" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
07 Apr 2004 05:32:54 AM |
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"Pollywolly" <polly@atjfaq.com> wrote in message
news:c50ih3$qhf$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
: Artfulcodger wrote:
: > GlennS wrote:
: >> "Artfulcodger" <mcbat@rogers.com> wrote in
: >> alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
: >>
: >>> Glen, Glen, Glen--carying on with Mel is like trying to argue with a
: >>> Jehovvah Witness--you are never going to win. They jsut won't quit.
: >>>
: >>> Mike
: >>
: >> I'm finding that out. But I've figured out a way to practice
: >> up for arguing with him. I'm going to go outside tonight and argue
: >> for three hours with the stop sign down the road, about why I
: >> shouldn't have to stop at that intersection.
: >> Can't yall take him back to where he came from?
: >>
: >> Glenn S.
: >> "Home Grown" 12 Step Recovery Website at...
: >> http://members.aol.com/GlennS1956
: >> Suffering = clinging to that which changes...
: >
: > You may find the stop sign is of a higher intellect.
: >
: > Mike
:
: Are you saying that Glenn is dumber than a post?
Well.... Duh!
.
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| User: "Pollywolly" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
07 Apr 2004 05:35:19 AM |
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ur_droll wrote:
"Pollywolly" <polly@atjfaq.com> wrote in message
news:c50ih3$qhf$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
Artfulcodger wrote:
GlennS wrote:
"Artfulcodger" <mcbat@rogers.com> wrote in
alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
Glen, Glen, Glen--carying on with Mel is like trying to argue
with a Jehovvah Witness--you are never going to win. They jsut
won't quit.
Mike
I'm finding that out. But I've figured out a way to practice
up for arguing with him. I'm going to go outside tonight and argue
for three hours with the stop sign down the road, about why I
shouldn't have to stop at that intersection.
Can't yall take him back to where he came from?
Glenn S.
"Home Grown" 12 Step Recovery Website at...
http://members.aol.com/GlennS1956
Suffering = clinging to that which changes...
You may find the stop sign is of a higher intellect.
Mike
Are you saying that Glenn is dumber than a post?
Well.... Duh!
Are you having fun following me around?
--
______________________________
Polly
Girlylicious Sweetheart of ATJ
Loving stupid people since April 2003
www.atjfaq.com
.
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| User: "ur_droll" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
07 Apr 2004 05:45:56 AM |
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"Pollywolly" <polly@atjfaq.com> wrote in message
news:c50lho$t7i$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
: ur_droll wrote:
: > "Pollywolly" <polly@atjfaq.com> wrote in message
: > news:c50ih3$qhf$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
: >> Artfulcodger wrote:
: >>> GlennS wrote:
: >>>> "Artfulcodger" <mcbat@rogers.com> wrote in
: >>>> alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
: >>>>
: >>>>> Glen, Glen, Glen--carying on with Mel is like trying to argue
: >>>>> with a Jehovvah Witness--you are never going to win. They jsut
: >>>>> won't quit.
: >>>>>
: >>>>> Mike
: >>>>
: >>>> I'm finding that out. But I've figured out a way to practice
: >>>> up for arguing with him. I'm going to go outside tonight and argue
: >>>> for three hours with the stop sign down the road, about why I
: >>>> shouldn't have to stop at that intersection.
: >>>> Can't yall take him back to where he came from?
: >>>>
: >>>> Glenn S.
: >>>> "Home Grown" 12 Step Recovery Website at...
: >>>> http://members.aol.com/GlennS1956
: >>>> Suffering = clinging to that which changes...
: >>>
: >>> You may find the stop sign is of a higher intellect.
: >>>
: >>> Mike
: >>
: >> Are you saying that Glenn is dumber than a post?
: >
: >
: > Well.... Duh!
:
: Are you having fun following me around?
I like to send ya spinning down, then drag ya up.......
just to send ya spinning back down again.
ya fucking yo yo
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| User: "Pollywolly" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
07 Apr 2004 05:49:21 AM |
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ur_droll wrote:
"Pollywolly" <polly@atjfaq.com> wrote in message
news:c50lho$t7i$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
ur_droll wrote:
"Pollywolly" <polly@atjfaq.com> wrote in message
news:c50ih3$qhf$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
Artfulcodger wrote:
GlennS wrote:
"Artfulcodger" <mcbat@rogers.com> wrote in
alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
Glen, Glen, Glen--carying on with Mel is like trying to argue
with a Jehovvah Witness--you are never going to win. They jsut
won't quit.
Mike
I'm finding that out. But I've figured out a way to practice
up for arguing with him. I'm going to go outside tonight and
argue for three hours with the stop sign down the road, about
why I shouldn't have to stop at that intersection.
Can't yall take him back to where he came from?
Glenn S.
"Home Grown" 12 Step Recovery Website at...
http://members.aol.com/GlennS1956
Suffering = clinging to that which changes...
You may find the stop sign is of a higher intellect.
Mike
Are you saying that Glenn is dumber than a post?
Well.... Duh!
Are you having fun following me around?
I like to send ya spinning down, then drag ya up.......
just to send ya spinning back down again.
ya fucking yo yo
I love to see you jumping up and down to get my attention.
--
______________________________
Polly
Girlylicious Sweetheart of ATJ
Loving stupid people since April 2003
www.atjfaq.com
.
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| User: "ur_droll" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
07 Apr 2004 05:56:23 AM |
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"Pollywolly" <polly@atjfaq.com> wrote in message
news:c50mc2$tqi$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
: ur_droll wrote:
: > "Pollywolly" <polly@atjfaq.com> wrote in message
: > news:c50lho$t7i$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
: >> ur_droll wrote:
: >>> "Pollywolly" <polly@atjfaq.com> wrote in message
: >>> news:c50ih3$qhf$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
: >>>> Artfulcodger wrote:
: >>>>> GlennS wrote:
: >>>>>> "Artfulcodger" <mcbat@rogers.com> wrote in
: >>>>>> alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
: >>>>>>
: >>>>>>> Glen, Glen, Glen--carying on with Mel is like trying to argue
: >>>>>>> with a Jehovvah Witness--you are never going to win. They jsut
: >>>>>>> won't quit.
: >>>>>>>
: >>>>>>> Mike
: >>>>>>
: >>>>>> I'm finding that out. But I've figured out a way to practice
: >>>>>> up for arguing with him. I'm going to go outside tonight and
: >>>>>> argue for three hours with the stop sign down the road, about
: >>>>>> why I shouldn't have to stop at that intersection.
: >>>>>> Can't yall take him back to where he came from?
: >>>>>>
: >>>>>> Glenn S.
: >>>>>> "Home Grown" 12 Step Recovery Website at...
: >>>>>> http://members.aol.com/GlennS1956
: >>>>>> Suffering = clinging to that which changes...
: >>>>>
: >>>>> You may find the stop sign is of a higher intellect.
: >>>>>
: >>>>> Mike
: >>>>
: >>>> Are you saying that Glenn is dumber than a post?
: >>>
: >>>
: >>> Well.... Duh!
: >>
: >> Are you having fun following me around?
: >
: > I like to send ya spinning down, then drag ya up.......
: > just to send ya spinning back down again.
: >
: > ya fucking yo yo
:
: I love jumping up and down to get attention.
That's cause yer a stupid fucking currymuncher
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| User: "Pollywolly" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
07 Apr 2004 05:59:37 AM |
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ur_droll wrote:
"Pollywolly" <polly@atjfaq.com> wrote in message
news:c50mc2$tqi$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
ur_droll wrote:
"Pollywolly" <polly@atjfaq.com> wrote in message
news:c50lho$t7i$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
ur_droll wrote:
"Pollywolly" <polly@atjfaq.com> wrote in message
news:c50ih3$qhf$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
Artfulcodger wrote:
GlennS wrote:
"Artfulcodger" <mcbat@rogers.com> wrote in
alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
Glen, Glen, Glen--carying on with Mel is like trying to argue
with a Jehovvah Witness--you are never going to win. They jsut
won't quit.
Mike
I'm finding that out. But I've figured out a way to practice
up for arguing with him. I'm going to go outside tonight and
argue for three hours with the stop sign down the road, about
why I shouldn't have to stop at that intersection.
Can't yall take him back to where he came from?
Glenn S.
"Home Grown" 12 Step Recovery Website at...
http://members.aol.com/GlennS1956
Suffering = clinging to that which changes...
You may find the stop sign is of a higher intellect.
Mike
Are you saying that Glenn is dumber than a post?
Well.... Duh!
Are you having fun following me around?
I like to send ya spinning down, then drag ya up.......
just to send ya spinning back down again.
ya fucking yo yo
I love jumping up and down to get attention.
That's cause yer a stupid fucking currymuncher
At least I am fucking. 'Night night.
--
______________________________
Polly
Girlylicious Sweetheart of ATJ
Loving stupid people since April 2003
www.atjfaq.com
.
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| User: "ur_droll" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
07 Apr 2004 06:09:42 AM |
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"Pollywolly" <polly@atjfaq.com> wrote in message
news:c50mv9$udh$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
: ur_droll wrote:
: > "Pollywolly" <polly@atjfaq.com> wrote in message
: > news:c50mc2$tqi$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
: >> ur_droll wrote:
: >>> "Pollywolly" <polly@atjfaq.com> wrote in message
: >>> news:c50lho$t7i$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
: >>>> ur_droll wrote:
: >>>>> "Pollywolly" <polly@atjfaq.com> wrote in message
: >>>>> news:c50ih3$qhf$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
: >>>>>> Artfulcodger wrote:
: >>>>>>> GlennS wrote:
: >>>>>>>> "Artfulcodger" <mcbat@rogers.com> wrote in
: >>>>>>>> alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
: >>>>>>>>
: >>>>>>>>> Glen, Glen, Glen--carying on with Mel is like trying to argue
: >>>>>>>>> with a Jehovvah Witness--you are never going to win. They jsut
: >>>>>>>>> won't quit.
: >>>>>>>>>
: >>>>>>>>> Mike
: >>>>>>>>
: >>>>>>>> I'm finding that out. But I've figured out a way to practice
: >>>>>>>> up for arguing with him. I'm going to go outside tonight and
: >>>>>>>> argue for three hours with the stop sign down the road, about
: >>>>>>>> why I shouldn't have to stop at that intersection.
: >>>>>>>> Can't yall take him back to where he came from?
: >>>>>>>>
: >>>>>>>> Glenn S.
: >>>>>>>> "Home Grown" 12 Step Recovery Website at...
: >>>>>>>> http://members.aol.com/GlennS1956
: >>>>>>>> Suffering = clinging to that which changes...
: >>>>>>>
: >>>>>>> You may find the stop sign is of a higher intellect.
: >>>>>>>
: >>>>>>> Mike
: >>>>>>
: >>>>>> Are you saying that Glenn is dumber than a post?
: >>>>>
: >>>>>
: >>>>> Well.... Duh!
: >>>>
: >>>> Are you having fun following me around?
: >>>
: >>> I like to send ya spinning down, then drag ya up.......
: >>> just to send ya spinning back down again.
: >>>
: >>> ya fucking yo yo
: >>
: >> I love jumping up and down to get attention.
: >
: >
: > That's cause yer a stupid fucking currymuncher
:
: At least I am fucking. 'Night night.
sticking yer finger up yer own arse don't count
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| User: "Mel" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
07 Apr 2004 11:34:17 PM |
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On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 19:43:46 +1000, "Pollywolly" <polly@atjfaq.com> wrote in
message <c50ih3$qhf$1@lust.ihug.co.nz>:
Artfulcodger wrote:
GlennS wrote:
"Artfulcodger" <mcbat@rogers.com> wrote in
alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
Glen, Glen, Glen--carying on with Mel is like trying to argue with a
Jehovvah Witness--you are never going to win. They jsut won't quit.
Mike
I'm finding that out. But I've figured out a way to practice
up for arguing with him. I'm going to go outside tonight and argue
for three hours with the stop sign down the road, about why I
shouldn't have to stop at that intersection.
Can't yall take him back to where he came from?
You may find the stop sign is of a higher intellect.
Mike
Are you saying that Glenn is dumber than a post?
How can you say that about Glenn?
Arguing with a STOP sign is a very sensible thing to do.
--
smash yer modem, reboot, kill yerself
Mel the Defiler
member, ATJ regs
webmaster of atjfaq.com
http://www.atjfaq.com/
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| User: "Jules" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
07 Apr 2004 05:45:37 AM |
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Pollywolly wrote:
Artfulcodger wrote:
GlennS wrote:
"Artfulcodger" <mcbat@rogers.com> wrote in
alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
Glen, Glen, Glen--carying on with Mel is like trying to argue with a
Jehovvah Witness--you are never going to win. They jsut won't quit.
Mike
I'm finding that out. But I've figured out a way to practice
up for arguing with him. I'm going to go outside tonight and argue
for three hours with the stop sign down the road, about why I
shouldn't have to stop at that intersection.
Can't yall take him back to where he came from?
Glenn S.
"Home Grown" 12 Step Recovery Website at...
http://members.aol.com/GlennS1956
Suffering = clinging to that which changes...
You may find the stop sign is of a higher intellect.
Mike
Are you saying that Glenn is dumber than a post?
Only someone who believes Mel's *recovery* story would be THAT dumb.
Jule§
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| User: "Pollywolly" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
07 Apr 2004 05:48:08 AM |
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Jules wrote:
Pollywolly wrote:
Artfulcodger wrote:
GlennS wrote:
"Artfulcodger" <mcbat@rogers.com> wrote in
alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
Glen, Glen, Glen--carying on with Mel is like trying to argue
with a Jehovvah Witness--you are never going to win. They jsut
won't quit.
Mike
I'm finding that out. But I've figured out a way to practice
up for arguing with him. I'm going to go outside tonight and argue
for three hours with the stop sign down the road, about why I
shouldn't have to stop at that intersection.
Can't yall take him back to where he came from?
Glenn S.
"Home Grown" 12 Step Recovery Website at...
http://members.aol.com/GlennS1956
Suffering = clinging to that which changes...
You may find the stop sign is of a higher intellect.
Mike
Are you saying that Glenn is dumber than a post?
Only someone who believes Mel's *recovery* story would be THAT dumb.
Jule§
Are you an addict too, Jules?
--
______________________________
Polly
Girlylicious Sweetheart of ATJ
Loving stupid people since April 2003
www.atjfaq.com
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| User: "Jules" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
07 Apr 2004 06:05:28 AM |
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Pollywolly wrote:
Jules wrote:
Pollywolly wrote:
Artfulcodger wrote:
GlennS wrote:
"Artfulcodger" <mcbat@rogers.com> wrote in
alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
Glen, Glen, Glen--carying on with Mel is like trying to argue
with a Jehovvah Witness--you are never going to win. They jsut
won't quit.
Mike
I'm finding that out. But I've figured out a way to practice
up for arguing with him. I'm going to go outside tonight and argue
for three hours with the stop sign down the road, about why I
shouldn't have to stop at that intersection.
Can't yall take him back to where he came from?
Glenn S.
"Home Grown" 12 Step Recovery Website at...
http://members.aol.com/GlennS1956
Suffering = clinging to that which changes...
You may find the stop sign is of a higher intellect.
Mike
Are you saying that Glenn is dumber than a post?
Only someone who believes Mel's *recovery* story would be THAT dumb.
Jule§
Are you an addict too, Jules?
Nope. I have a pretty low opinion of addicts, actually. However, my
opinion of lying *reformed* addicts is somewhat lower.
Jule§
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| User: "Mel" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
07 Apr 2004 11:34:20 PM |
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On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 20:15:37 +0930, Jules <kalliope@optusnet.com.au> wrote
in message <4073DBD1.E1732502@optusnet.com.au>:
Pollywolly wrote:
Artfulcodger wrote:
GlennS wrote:
"Artfulcodger" <mcbat@rogers.com> wrote in
alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
Glen, Glen, Glen--carying on with Mel is like trying to argue with a
Jehovvah Witness--you are never going to win. They jsut won't quit.
Mike
I'm finding that out. But I've figured out a way to practice
up for arguing with him. I'm going to go outside tonight and argue
for three hours with the stop sign down the road, about why I
shouldn't have to stop at that intersection.
Can't yall take him back to where he came from?
You may find the stop sign is of a higher intellect.
Mike
Are you saying that Glenn is dumber than a post?
Only someone who believes Mel's *recovery* story would be THAT dumb.
Jule§
What do you believe, Julie?
--
smash yer modem, reboot, kill yerself
Mel the Defiler
member, ATJ regs
webmaster of atjfaq.com
http://www.atjfaq.com/
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| User: "Mel" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
07 Apr 2004 01:00:12 AM |
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On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 22:55:22 -0400, GlennS <GlennVA56@hotmail.com> wrote in
message <a8r670l10j1hlct7bcgbd6lt7bshc8nu8b@4ax.com>:
"Artfulcodger" <mcbat@rogers.com> wrote
Glen, Glen, Glen--carying on with Mel is like trying to argue with a
Jehovvah Witness--you are never going to win. They jsut won't quit.
Mike
I'm finding that out. But I've figured out a way to practice
up for arguing with him. I'm going to go outside tonight and argue
for three hours with the stop sign down the road, about why I
shouldn't have to stop at that intersection.
why don't you just shoot it? i thought that is what Americans did in
America?
you just shoot anything you don't like.
is that an accurate portrayal of American life?
--
smash yer modem, reboot, kill yerself
Mel the Defiler
member, ATJ regs
webmaster of atjfaq.com
http://www.atjfaq.com/
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| User: "GlennS" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
07 Apr 2004 06:31:02 PM |
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"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote in alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 22:55:22 -0400, GlennS <GlennVA56@hotmail.com> wrote in
message <a8r670l10j1hlct7bcgbd6lt7bshc8nu8b@4ax.com>:
"Artfulcodger" <mcbat@rogers.com> wrote
Glen, Glen, Glen--carying on with Mel is like trying to argue with a
Jehovvah Witness--you are never going to win. They jsut won't quit.
Mike
I'm finding that out. But I've figured out a way to practice
up for arguing with him. I'm going to go outside tonight and argue
for three hours with the stop sign down the road, about why I
shouldn't have to stop at that intersection.
why don't you just shoot it? i thought that is what Americans did in
America?
you just shoot anything you don't like.
is that an accurate portrayal of American life?
It is an accurate portrayal of life in America's largest
cities. It's also an accurate portrayal of America's foreign policy.
Away from the big cities, though, we usually just shoot
criminals.
Glenn S.
"Home Grown" 12 Step Recovery Website at...
http://members.aol.com/GlennS1956
Suffering = clinging to that which changes...
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| User: "Mel" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
07 Apr 2004 01:00:05 AM |
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On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 22:20:29 -0400, GlennS <GlennVA56@hotmail.com> wrote in
message <10o6705oavud4rs4d9eamuap89vuu1ev6o@4ax.com>:
"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote in alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
btw this tagline is inaccurate. i am not subscribed to arf. i'm subscribed
to ARNA and ATJ. i'm replying to these messages from ARNA.
On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 16:44:31 -0400, GlennS <GlennVA56@hotmail.com> wrote in
"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> <63n570dr6u19l0ng9jstoqoul09mbojuvv@4ax.com>
crack is an addictive substance. what don't you understand about addiction?
How can crack be addictive, when, as you say, it's effortless
to stop smoking it?
so your definition of addiction is?
It's an addict thing. You wouldn't understand.
awwww, you won't believe that I was addicted to crack because I refuse to
parrot your closely held beliefs about addiction.
let's face it, addiction is a piece of ***** to kick. easy as falling off a
log. just lean backwards and gravity will do the rest.
trust me.
you do realise that an addiction is not something which absolutely compels
you do something, eh?
addiction merely strongly urges someone to take a certain action. that urge
can be resisted.
and yes, it is effortless to not DO something. that remains a fact. here's a
simple sentence to illustrate that for you:
"by not walking up the mountain this afternoon, I did not sweat."
Not applicable to the conversation at hand. You're not
addicted to walking up mountains.
I could be, though, according to Leisure Suit Lamey. With such a posting
name and impressive credentials (anonymous server), I'm sure we can turn to
him for valuable trustworthy information.
You're right about one thing, though. The sentence was
"simple".
"keep it simple, stupid."
I believe that is one of your cliches?
drug addiction requires much effort. not taking drugs requires no effort.
True. Unless you happen to be an addict.
are you saying that drug taking is effortless for an addict?
the drugs just march down their throats all on their own accord?
where can I see this miracle occurring?
or are you saying that not taking drugs for an addict requires enormous
effort?
what are they compelled to do when they're not taking drugs? are they taking
endless step classes at their local gym? how can lying about on their beds,
not drinking, not drugging be a huge effort?
what you are saying is that their minds are flying all over the show
debating endlessly with themselves about what to do.
read what i've included at the bottom of this posting.
I think that much is obvious to most people, except possibly a 12 step
cultist trying desperately to convince people to feel sorry for it.
I don't feel sorry for drunks and druggies. They don't need sympathy or
understanding. They need a swift, hard kick up the pants.
They're arseholes.
And you're not?
I'm a mild mannered man. I'm gentle as a lamb.
[ this is an example of the absurdity of talking to a 12 step cultist. the
bleeding obvious is no longer obvious to them. ]
You obviously just bled on yourself. It's obvious to everyone
except you and your buddies.
Sorry, stepper. I won't have sympathy for you.
Why would you? I don't drink or use drugs.
you have my sympathy (now).
I feel sorry for you, though. Your resentments are kicking
your *****, and clouding your every thought.
don't fret, stepper. i don't have resentments against the 12 step cult. I
found something better that works.
They say that finding something valuable takes work, takes effort. I had to
look further than the ready solution that was thrust in my face.
bottom line: God does not solve people's problems for them. You have to do
it yourself.
May you find peace.
all i want is a piece of (female) *****.
***
The Rational Recovery program (AVRT)
AVRT = addictive voice recognition technique
"Bullets for my Beast"
Bullet 1
Clear your mind of everything you "know" about substance addiction.
For now, forget about:
the recovery group movement,
the disease concept of addiction,
brain chemistry,
lousy recovery statistics,
and nonsense-jargon like:
denial,
powerlessness,
relapse,
triggers,
enabler,
alcoholic,
addict,
hitting bottom
and other recovery group movement concepts.
Focus only on your own behavior
and the consequences you experience
from drinking or drugging.
Bullet 2
Focus on the obvious.
If you're doing something harmful to yourself,
wouldn't it be good to stop it?
If you have trouble drinking moderately,
wouldn't it be wise to quit altogether?
Bullet3
Right now, experiment with the idea of
never drinking or using again.
Never!
Think of the pros and the cons.
Listen!
Listen to your own thoughts
about quitting for good,
and notice the mixture
of feelings you have.
Bullet4
Notice that you feel both ways about quitting.
This is the meaning of the word, "addiction."
On one hand you want to quit.
But on the other hand,
you would like to continue
drinking or drugging
as much as you want.
Forever.
You are ambivalent,
feeling both ways.
Bullet 5
Your Addictive Voice (AV)
is your body talking to you.
In thoughts and feelings,
your AV tells you
to drink or use drugs.
Your AV is the sole cause
of your substance addiction.
Bullet 6
Your AV is the expression of your appetite
or your desire for alcohol or drugs.
That appetite originates in the biological,
animal side of human nature,
so we call it the Beast.
Bullet 7
It's like there are two of you,
at cross purposes,
in conflict.
In mortal combat.
Bullet 8
Your Beast is ruthless.
It cares for nothing you love.
It wants only one thing.
The high.
Any reason will do --
good, bad, or indifferent.
It will exploit any tragedy,
take advantage of any good fortune,
or ask for no reason at all.
It drinks or uses for its own sake.
To get high.
To feel real good all over.
Bullet 9
Your Beast hides in the dark.
When you are addicted to alcohol or drugs.
You cannot see it, any more than you can see your own eyes.
AVRT puts light on the Beast
hiding in the dark.
It cannot tolerate
for you to see it.
It fears being seen
for what it is.
It fears you.
It knows that you can kill it
once you see it.
Bullet 10
Your Beast is your appetite for pleasure.
It expresses itself through your thoughts,
mental images, and feelings.
But it cannot act on its own.
It needs pronouns.
It needs you.
Your Beast's favorite word is "I."
Without that word, it is paralyzed.
When your Beast wants a drink, you hear,
"I want a drink."
In AVRT, "It wants a drink."
Too bad for it.
Do you want to continue drinking?
Or is it your Beast?
Bullet 11
The Beast is a master of disguise.
It seems to be you!
But it is only an appetite for alcohol or drugs.
You are not an appetite.
You are a human being.
You can say,
"I am not a beast brain. I am a neocortex!"
Humans dominate beasts
within or without.
The Beast knows only one answer to any question,
one solution to any problem,
one action for every occasion.
Drink! Fix!
You are human,
much more intelligent and versatile.
Therefore, you have an enormous advantage over it.
You control language.
Best of all, only you control your muscles.
Your beast brain is quadriplegic.
Poor thing.
Bullet 12
Your Beast can be anything that you can be
in order to get what it wants.
(Think of how your sex drive works.)
Intelligent
Friendly
Educated
Funny
Determined
Compassionate
Clever
Secretive
Persistent
Patient
Ruthless
Dictatorial
Loving
But the Beast is a dumb thing, a party animal.
Regardless of its disguise
or how pleasant it feels,
it only wants to drink or fix.
It is your deadly enemy.
Treat it as such.
Bullet 13
First, think of never drinking or fixing again.
Now, think of having a drink or fixing right now.
Shift back and forth
between quitting right now for good
and drinking full blast forever.
Notice what is happening to you
as you shift back and forth.
You are teasing your Beast.
Then torturing it.
Shame on you.
Bullet 14
Beasts have feelings, just as you do.
When you think about drinking or drugging,
you may feel anxious.
You know the likely, ugly consequences.
But at the same time, it feels pleasantly aroused.
Only you can remember the bad times.
It remembers only the good times.
It never learns.
It will be jealous of people who drink or use without problems
It will resent people who interfere with its supply.
It will feel joyous when you consider drinking or using.
It is horrified at the idea of never getting high again.
It is very frightened of you.
It wants to survive.
It knows what you are capable of doing.
Bullet 15
Your Beast is grateful
for the recovery group movement.
If you don't go to meetings
and get a sponsor
and do moral inventories
and share
and make amends
and turn your entire life over
to the endless process of recovery
and keep coming back,
you will drink!
"WHOOPIE!"
says the Beast.
If you are powerless,
then it can be your higher power
one-day-at-a-time
for the rest of your life.
It likes the disease idea, in which
having a drink is called
"having a relapse."
It likes to have a place
to mingle with other Beasts.
It feels safe where right and wrong
are replaced by addictive disease, and where
commitment to permanent abstinence
is a symptom of that same disease.
It notices that few who attend meetings
stay sober for very long,
and gladly accepts that relapse
is a normal part of recovery.
It wants you to think your addiction is a mystery,
a disease, a symptom of maladjustment,
a spiritual deficiency, or anything but what it is:
The ultimate self-indulgence.
Bullet 16
One Day At A Time?
How does your Beast feel about
quitting alcohol or drugs just one day at a time?
Compare that to quitting once,
for all time!
Feel your Beast cringe.
Better yet, how do you feel about
staying sober, just one day at a time?
(The word is "insecure.")
But how would you like to end
your substance addiction for good?
How would you like to get on
with your life as a normal person
who simply never drinks or uses?
(The word is "hope.")
Bullet 17
In Rational Recovery, we suggest
that you make a Big Plan:
a decision to totally abstain
from alcohol and drugs,
forever.
A Big Plan is very simple,
but not all that easy.
For example, ask yourself,
"Can I really make a decision right now that
I will never drink or use again? Never?"
Now, listen to the answer your hear in your head.
Yes, the one that says, "Never say never.
You can't tell what you will do down the line."
Once again, notice that uneasy feeling.
If you are practicing AVRT, that voice and feeling is not you.
It is your body talking to you through your Addictive Voice.
Your Beast is just doing its job.
It intends to survive,
even if you do not.
It is a worthy opponent,
but humans prevail over beasts.
Do you want to make a Big Plan?
Are you ready to make a Big Plan?
Bullet 18
Such suspense!
To drink or not to drink.
Ah, yes. That is the question!
And listen to all the commotion in your head!
"If I could make this decision, I wouldn't have a problem in the first
place. I could say never, but I would just be lying to myself. And if I say
never, and then go ahead and drink, I'll feel like a failure, so I would
just be setting up a big fall for myself by saying never again. And who's to
say that I have to abstain? Lots of psychologists say abstinence is
unrealistic, and scientific studies show that many people with drinking
problems learn to drink moderately. They kind of mature out of it. And even
if I quit for good, how do I know my life would really be much better? I
could see maybe six months, and if I was doing OK by then, it would be
obvious that I would remain abstinent, because it would be stupid to start
drinking again if things are going better because I'm not drinking. I might
eventually have to give it up altogether, but right now I'm under incredible
pressure from all sorts of things, and it wouldn't be good for me to
undertake something as significant as a Big Plan without really giving it
some serious consideration and picking a time when things are going along
more steady than they are right now. And actually, things can go on this way
for a while, like I mean nothing really terrible is happening, and I can
live with myself even if others can't, and if I am careful to not really
overdo it and drink more responsibly, I can still have some when I can
really enjoy it without really causing big troubles. I know if certain
things happen or if I get to feeling a certain way I will definitely drink,
so there's no use being perfectionistic about this, and besides, I can cut
back using some of the AVRT stuff to control how much rather than whether I
drink.This AVRT is probably good for people with problems that are more
serious, or actually less serious than my problems. Maybe if I get out to
meetings that will settle me down and make me really conscious of the bad
consequences of drinking and I can get some support there and maybe
straighten some things out about me that are driving me to drink so crazily,
sometimes. This Big Plan thing is too abrupt and there isn't really any
proof it works because RR hasn't been around that long, and the experts are
really divided about the best way to approach sobriety in the first place.
Actually the Big Plan is probably the best idea of all, but it just doesn't
come naturally, and there's no point in doing something unnatural because
you can't live up to it down the line."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,"
SAID THE BEAST!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Definition review:
Addictive Voice: Any thinking or feeling that supports the possibility of
any future use of alcohol or drugs -- EVER.
Bullet 19
There is only one possible time to make a Big Plan.
Right now.
In AVRT, time does not exist.
We know that the Beast,
which resides in the midbrain,
has no perception of time.
It lives as a speck suspended in eternity,
with no memory except the memory of pleasure,
and with no comprehension of the future,
functioning in the endless now
to protect its supply of survival stuff.
Therefore, now is never
an acceptable time to make a Big Plan.
Your Beast's only fear is of
deprivation of what it takes to survive.
Its job is to block you
from depriving it
of alcohol or other drugs.
It has been succeeding.
Bullet 20
If you wait until tomorrow,
it will still be now, only then.
The decision will be no more easy then,
than now.
It would seem much easier
to make a sincere commitment
to totally abstain for two hundred years
than to say never, ever again.
Try it:
Make a plan to resume drinking in two hundred years.
Decide exactly what you will drink (or use) in 2196
to celebrate two centuries of abstinence.
See?
The Beast is quite stupid,
so you can trick it this way.
But your Beast can live comfortably with a plan
for two hundred years of abstinence,
even though you will be dead by then.
It just doesn't get the time part.
It is functionally immortal,
and doesn't understand that you will die.
To your Beast, time is just a commodity
to wear you down,
to tire you out,
to look for perfect opportunities,
and to shorten the days,
so that it will not suffer deprivation for long.
Knowing that, you are armed for the kill.
Bullet 21
Kill?
In a manner of speaking, yes.
Your Beast is a part of you,
an intimate part
that has been with you for a long, long time.
It has been with you during some of
the best moments of your life,
and some of the worst,
always as a friend,
to celebrate the good times,
to relieve the humdrum times,
to calm you and soothe you during the bad times,
and to enrich the simple pleasures of life.
It brings out the best in you,
or so it seems at times.
It is a companion for lonely times,
and a coach for social times,
a doctor who knows what's best for you,
and a pal who really cares for you.
It talks in "you" and "we,"
just like any other friend,
and it always has the perfect solution
for any problem you ever have.
How could you turn on your old friend,
betray it when it has been so faithful to you?
How could you kill such an innocent thing,
that only means to help?
Bullet 22
"Killing is too extreme,"
says the Beast.
But look what it's done to you so far,
And think of what it still can do to you.
How far will you let it go?
If you listen carefully,
your Beast will reveal its innermost secret --
how to kill it.
"Never say never,"
says the Beast.
Get the message?
Bullet 23
Are you ready to make a Big Plan?
It's entirely up to you.
But the only time you can do it is right now.
Why now?
Because it's always now, silly.
If you make a decision to quit tomorrow,
it will still be "now," then.
And once again, your Beast will say,
"Why now? Why never? Why not just one day at a time?"
And you can keep coming back to the problem,
forever.
Think it over. You need not respond immediately.
But if you are ready, go to the NEXT page.
Bullet 24
This is not an experiment.
Here is how to make a Big Plan:
Half-hearted plans to quit for good won't do.
It's all or nothing, like jumping off the high dive.
There's no turning back.
Now, think about the meaning of each of these five words,
"I will never drink/drug again."
"I" am in control of my muscles. Therefore, "I" call the shots.
"Will" is just my ability to make a decision, which requires no power.
"Never" means eternity, forever, to the last star in the universe.
"Drink/use" is what I will never do
"Again," which means that this decision is based on my past experience.
Feel the discomfort.
That is your Beast, frightened of you,
horrified at what you are planning.
Now, think about why you are quitting for good.
No new problems caused by drinking or using,
a better life,
better marriage,
more education,
health,
money,
normal relationships,
whatever you hope for.
Feel the hope.
They are not an illusion, a false hope, or a pink cloud.
Those feelings are you.
Trust those feelings of hope.
Bullet 25
Now, say the words slowly to yourself,
with as much meaning as you can,
"I will never drink/use again."
Mean it!
Trust that you will always be able to recognize
an inner longing to drink or use
as your deadly enemy.
Be willing to let your "old friend" suffer and die.
Look at your hands,
which are necessary to consume alcohol or drugs.
Understand that they are under your complete control at all times.
Your Beast has no power over you;
it is a quadriplegic which must appeal to you
in order to convince you to drink or use.
Wiggle your index finger.
Now challenge your Beast to do the same.
Ask yourself, "How bad (depressed, anxious, bored, angry, etc.)
am I willing to get and still not drink/use?
(Hint: Try, "As bad as I feel. That's how bad I can feel and still not drink
or use.)
Get it?
Bullet 26
Listen for the echo!
When you state your Big Plan,
you will almost certainly hear
some serious commotion in your head.
It may be angry commotion,
or sadness, or fear,
or bald cynicism like,
"Oh, sure. A likely story.
What a lie.
What a lot of crap this AVRT is."
That is your Beast in action,
defending itself against the worst thing possible.
You are threatening it, in effect, with death.
Fortunately, it is not you.
You will survive, but IT is certainly upset!
Too bad.
Now, complete your Big Plan by saying it again, with meaning.
Only this time, add,
"...and I will never change my mind."
Your Beast will get the message.
Humans naturally dominate Beasts, within or without.
Congratulations on your Big Plan!
Bullet 27
AVRT is effortless.
From here on, your task is simple.
All you do is recognize any thinking or feeling
that even remotely suggests that you will
drink alcohol or use drugs again.
The "R" is AVRT stands for recognition --
not "removal" or "reasoning against."
Just recognize those feelings and thinking, the AV,
and they will fall silent.
Only when you engage in dialog with the AV,
will you have "white knuckles."
Stay alert for new Beast activity, which may be sudden or gradual. It
doesn't give up easily, and it is a strong opponent. When you feel it
struggle within you, it is only your old enemy having a hard time with its
new master -- you. Your Beast activity will taper off and within a matter of
weeks or months abstinence will be effortless.
If you aren't going to drink or use any more, what would your purpose be in
attending recovery meetings?
You will be surprised and fascinated at how much of your thinking is
actually your Addictive Voice. You may be stunned to discover how much
recovery movement concepts have become part of your Addictive Voice, paving
the way for more drinking or using. In fact, your Beast will use the 12-step
program as its strongest ally. It will yearn for meetings and tell you that
AA is absolutely right, that by taking personal responsibility for
abstinence you are proving that you are a very sick person who will
inevitably relapse.
Internet surfers may appreciate AVRT as a subroutine in a BASIC program:
1. I never drink.
2. "(anything thinking or feeling that supports drinking)"
3. Go to 1.
Don't count time. Let your Beast count time until the next drink. Allow
yourself to naturally forget why you quit. If you aren't going to drink or
use any more, no explanations are necessary to remain abstinent.
If you would like to get your PhD in Rational Recovery,
go the the NEXT page.
Bullet 28
Congratulations! You have earned
The PhD in Rational Recovery.
You are entitled to declare yourself completely recovered from alcohol
and/or drug addiction. Of course, something deep down inside of you sneers
at such an idea, but now you know what that something is. Therefore, I
invite you to reclaim your life from addiction and defy the recovery
mentality that keeps millions hostage to perpetual self-doubt. If you are
not going to drink/use any more, then you are recovered as I am, provided
you are willing to believe in yourself.
If you feel good right now, trust your feelings! They are not a pink cloud,
denial, or a honeymoon. They are the authentic you, with new hope for your
future. I have named these good feelings the abstinence commitment effect
(ACE). You have aced the Crash Course! Enjoy!
AVRT is a simple logic engine that kills addictions. It is based on the
experience of formerly addicted people, and devised by a former drunk, yours
truly. It is not a product or spinoff of any school of philosophy or
psychology, although it dovetails with any of them.
AVRT is unscientific in the sense that it doesn't take a doctor or therapist
to explain it. In fact, they can't explain it very well unless they also
have a PhD from Rational Recovery, as below:
If your Beast's pleasure was alcohol:
If your Beast's pleasure was crack, heroin, methamphetamine, pot, etc:
Phormer Drunk
Phormer Drugger
--
smash yer modem, reboot, kill yerself
Mel the Defiler
member, ATJ regs
webmaster of atjfaq.com
http://www.atjfaq.com/
.
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| User: "GlennS" |
|
| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
07 Apr 2004 06:31:04 PM |
|
|
"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote in alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 22:20:29 -0400, GlennS <GlennVA56@hotmail.com> wrote in
message <10o6705oavud4rs4d9eamuap89vuu1ev6o@4ax.com>:
"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote in alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
btw this tagline is inaccurate. i am not subscribed to arf. i'm subscribed
to ARNA and ATJ. i'm replying to these messages from ARNA.
It's quite accurate. You're cross-posting to ARF, thereby
deliberately placing your posts here. Are you going to now try to
blame a 12 step program for placing your posts into ARF, like you try
to blame it for everything else in your life?
On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 16:44:31 -0400, GlennS <GlennVA56@hotmail.com> wrote in
"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> <63n570dr6u19l0ng9jstoqoul09mbojuvv@4ax.com>
crack is an addictive substance. what don't you understand about addiction?
How can crack be addictive, when, as you say, it's effortless
to stop smoking it?
so your definition of addiction is?
It's an addict thing. You wouldn't understand.
awwww, you won't believe that I was addicted to crack because I refuse to
parrot your closely held beliefs about addiction.
let's face it, addiction is a piece of ***** to kick. easy as falling off a
log. just lean backwards and gravity will do the rest.
trust me.
Brain surgery is easy. You just cut out the bad parts, and
leave in the good parts. Trust me.
Let's make a deal. I'll trust your illogical rantings about
addiction, if you let me perform brain surgery on you. Since I don't
know anything about brain surgery, and you don't know anything about
addiction, it will be an even deal.
you do realise that an addiction is not something which absolutely compels
you do something, eh?
addiction merely strongly urges someone to take a certain action. that urge
can be resisted.
and yes, it is effortless to not DO something. that remains a fact. here's a
simple sentence to illustrate that for you:
"by not walking up the mountain this afternoon, I did not sweat."
Not applicable to the conversation at hand. You're not
addicted to walking up mountains.
I could be, though, according to Leisure Suit Lamey. With such a posting
name and impressive credentials (anonymous server), I'm sure we can turn to
him for valuable trustworthy information.
You're right about one thing, though. The sentence was
"simple".
"keep it simple, stupid."
I'll have to give you that one. You're consistently keeping
it simple and stupid.
I believe that is one of your cliches?
drug addiction requires much effort. not taking drugs requires no effort.
True. Unless you happen to be an addict.
are you saying that drug taking is effortless for an addict?
the drugs just march down their throats all on their own accord?
where can I see this miracle occurring?
or are you saying that not taking drugs for an addict requires enormous
effort?
what are they compelled to do when they're not taking drugs? are they taking
endless step classes at their local gym? how can lying about on their beds,
not drinking, not drugging be a huge effort?
Neither of my children ever asked that many questions in a
row. Eight back-to-back questions. That's telling...
what you are saying is that their minds are flying all over the show
debating endlessly with themselves about what to do.
Gee. With you constantly telling me what I'm saying, I don't
have to say anything. That means you have to do all the typing.
Thanks!
Sorry, stepper. I won't have sympathy for you.
Why would you? I don't drink or use drugs.
you have my sympathy (now).
I feel sorry for you, though. Your resentments are kicking
your *****, and clouding your every thought.
don't fret, stepper. i don't have resentments against the 12 step cult. I
found something better that works.
You don't have resentments against 12 step programs? What a
joke.
I guess we'll have to add "you're in denial" to the list, too.
I hate to break out the "you're in denial" card, because most
steppers eventually get around to telling people that, and sometimes
it's not true. But, in your case, it's impossible to watch as you
plaster your resentments in these newsgroups, and then claim not to
have any. That means that you're either in denial about your
resentments, or you're a liar. I figured I'd give you the benefit of
the doubt, being as I'm such a nice guy.
They say that finding something valuable takes work, takes effort. I had to
look further than the ready solution that was thrust in my face.
How could it take you "work", and "effort", to do something
that you claim was "effortless"???
You sure do contradict yourself a lot. That's another classic
sign of denial.
bottom line: God does not solve people's problems for them. You have to do
it yourself.
May you find peace.
all i want is a piece of (female) *****.
I guess now I'll have to add "heathen" to your list of
attributes. Your list is getting quite long, you resentful heathen in
denial.
Glenn S.
"Home Grown" 12 Step Recovery Website at...
http://members.aol.com/GlennS1956
Suffering = clinging to that which changes...
.
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| User: "Zoogar, ruler of the Zerg" |
|
| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
08 Apr 2004 10:41:57 AM |
|
|
GlennS wrote:
"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote in alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 22:20:29 -0400, GlennS <GlennVA56@hotmail.com> wrote
"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote in alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
btw this tagline is inaccurate. i am not subscribed to arf. i'm
subscribed to ARNA and ATJ. i'm replying to these messages from ARNA.
It's quite accurate. You're cross-posting to ARF,
I didn't originate the groups line.
thereby
deliberately placing your posts here. Are you going to now try to
blame a 12 step program for placing your posts into ARF, like you try
to blame it for everything else in your life?
Glenn, yer being a troll again.
BTW what's a stepper doing in ARF?
you do realise that an addiction is not something which absolutely
compels you do something, eh?
addiction merely strongly urges someone to take a certain action. that
urge can be resisted.
and yes, it is effortless to not DO something. that remains a fact.
here's a simple sentence to illustrate that for you:
"by not walking up the mountain this afternoon, I did not sweat."
Not applicable to the conversation at hand. You're not
addicted to walking up mountains.
I could be, though, according to Leisure Suit Lamey. With such a posting
name and impressive credentials (anonymous server), I'm sure we can turn
to him for valuable trustworthy information.
You're right about one thing, though. The sentence was
"simple".
"keep it simple, stupid."
I'll have to give you that one. You're consistently keeping
it simple and stupid.
that | | | | | | |
