| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Mel" |
| Date: |
06 Apr 2004 10:23:48 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 16:44:32 -0400, GlennS <GlennVA56@hotmail.com> wrote in
message <dc4670197vj6brd1kjtfbctmbssk7jd458@4ax.com>:
"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> <dgq570hjm5anoa8j2bh6n1kh3v6j903c0f@4ax.com>
"so let me get this straight, you won't believe that I was an addict simply
because I was able to quit using drugs and stay
off them without the aid of belonging to a 12 step cult?"
Do you understand the meaning of the word "because"?
Let's face it, the reason you refuse to believe that I was an addict is
because you have a huge problem reconciling your 12 step cult beliefs about
addiction with my account.
Let's face what?
hey, I just wrote what. do you have a problem understanding English?
Why do you keep parroting that made up tale
about the 12 steps, which I've neither stated nor implied?
C'mon Glenn, be a man and stop squirming on the hook.
What other reason would you have for not wishing to acknowledge that I was
addicted to crack?
I knew
long before I ever attended a 12 step meeting, by living the life of
an addict for 20 years, that someone who says that it's effortless for
an alcoholic to stop drinking has never been an alcoholic or an addict
themselves.
Well my experience of crack addiction was identical.
I "knew" I was addicted. I "knew" that I could not stop. I "knew" that I had
to use no matter what. I "knew" that I wanted to stop (some part of me) but
that I could not (because some other part of me wanted to continue and that
part always seemed able to convince me to continue).
Rational Recovery (RR) blows all that "knowledge" away. It divides the brain
in two - the beast part and the neo-cortex. The beast part is the addictive
voice. The neo-cortex is the true me.
Essentially RR states that the way out of addiction is to recognise the
addictive voice and simply not listen to it. Simple as that.
Getting out of addiction is effortless, /when/ /you/ /know/ /how/.
That is the catch. You need to know how.
All Kai wants to know is how to stop being an "addict" so he can booze and
drug it up. Simple Kai doesn't seem able to grasp that boozing and drugging
it up is *addiction*. LOL. Poor devil.
That illustrates, right there, the problem with 12 step thinking. 12 step
cultists think that IF ONLY they were not addicts, they could drug it up
24/7. LOL. Do you see the confusion there? They don't know whether they are
coming or going.
In RR, people make a decision to QUIT for good. Not to toy with the idea by
quitting only for today. Any amount of drugging is seen as being part of the
problem. And I can totally understand and accept that because prior to
September 1997, I had never consumed a speck of crack cocaine and I didn't
need to or want to. And so I am completely content to not have it in my life
anymore AT ALL. Why do I need to be able to use crack? I can't see any
reason.
You can try to tie all of the evils of the world on the
12 steps to conceal your own shortcomings, but you're only fooling
yourself, and others who wish to do the same.
I claim that the message that the 12 step cult puts out into the public
domain is erroneous, is false and is a disservice to the community.
In NA, I depended on God creating a miracle for me.
Under Rational Recovery, I made the miracle happen for myself.
***
http://www.rational.org/The%20Steps.html
Another Look at the 12-Step Program
THE TWELVE STEPS OF AA
Step 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had
become unmanageable.
Step 2: We came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore
us to sanity.
Step 3: We made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care
of God, as we understand him.
Step 4: We made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
Step 5: We admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the
exact nature of our wrongs.
Step 6: We were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of
character.
Step 7: We humbly asked Him to remove these shortcomings.
Step 8: We made a list of all the persons we had harmed, and became willing
to make amends to them all.
Step 9: We made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when
to do so would injure them or others.
Step 10: We continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong
promptly admitted it.
Step 11: We sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious
contact with God as we understand him, praying only for knowledge of his
will and the power to carry that out.
Step 12: Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we
tried to carry this message to others, and to practice these principles in
all our affairs.
"The only requirement for membership in AA is the desire to stop drinking."
- Alcoholics Anonymous, by Bill Wilson, et. al.
The Twelve-Step Program is not about addiction recovery; it is about
Alcoholics Anonymous, a religious denomination that binds its membership
together with fear of self-destruction, surrender of autonomy, unwholesome
introspection, prescribed meditations, and the promise of divine
intervention. When freely chosen, religious solutions may benefit
individuals and society; when forced, they cannot quell the animal desire
for self-intoxication. Indeed, forced participation in religion kills the
human spirit as surely as addiction itself.
Desire only, please
The steps above contain no suggestion that one summarily quit
drinking/using, or of how one might achieve that goal. The AA fellowship
expects that members only desire to stop, and certainly not to consummate
recovery through a personal commitment to abstinence. It is presumed that,
due to an inherent, congenital defect, AA members, i.e., "alcoholics," are
constitutionally incapable of accepting moral responsibility for lifetime
abstinence. They believe that such ideas are unrealistic, doomed to failure,
and are cardinal symptoms of their common affliction. No member may claim to
know if or when they will drink or use drugs in the future, for such
knowledge would connote responsibility, and negate the purpose of the
program. Recovery is not regarded as an immediate, individual
responsibility, but as a long-term, group project requiring intense support
from others who only desire so stop, but not quit, drinking.
We all stop at stop signs, only to start up again. Quitting for life is much
different from desiring to merely stop, one-day-at-a-time. Quitting is
harder, even gut-wrenching, but sets the stage from freedom based on human
competency and individual responsibility.
Mission Impossible
It is impossible for addicted people to fashion a recovery program for
others before resolving that problem themselves. Alcoholics Anonymous was
founded by two tentatively sober drunks, Bill Wilson and Bob Smith, who gave
up on themselves after repeated failures to abstain or drink moderately.
Ignorant of the nature of addiction, and unaware of their own Addictive
Voices, each hoped to find in the other what they could not find in
themselves, the ability to stay sober without really quitting. So, each of
them placed the responsibility upon the other. Unwilling to make the painful
decision to unconditionally quit drinking, they created an ersatz religion
which excluded and absolved moral accountability for drunkenness, describing
that behavior as involuntary. The program's preoccupation with moral and
character defects also dignifies drunkenness as a disease. They predictably
interpreted their past failures to honor their word as evidence that it is
humanly impossible for certain people, like them, to do so. Accordingly,
they came up with the 12-step program, which makes no mention of quitting,
but procrastinates that painful decision daily and forever. They discovered
that other substance abusers are highly attracted to any arrangement that
shifts the responsibility for abstinence to other entities. While they
claimed the only condition for membership is the desire to quit, it is fear
of the bodily desire for intoxicated pleasure, the Beast, that bonds the
fellowship together. Before the Beast, AA says, humans are powerless. Thus,
AA is the embodiment of the collective Beast, defending itself against moral
injunction, and the 12-steps are its human voice.
Inversion of truth
Wilson's and Smith's initial inversion of truth, their artful evasion of
moral responsibility for drunkenness and abstinence, required suspension of
critical judgment not only by AA members, by a society that is justifiably
intolerant of preposterous drunken behavior. To accommodate AA's initial
inversion of truth, other "adjacent truths" have progressively been
inverted, aided by the professional community, with the result that a
radical, new philosophy of dependency and victimhood is overtaking
traditional American values of independence, self-restraint, self-reliance,
and human resilience.
As the recovery group movement marches forward using the apparatus and force
of government, social decline is apparent. Step 12, above, has launched an
army of altruists upon our social institutions, 12-step believers who have
convinced a desperate, trusting society that their God-given creed will
deliver us from an epidemic of addictive disease. They sow the seeds of mass
addiction contained in the disease-treatment concept, and present their
program as the only thing that works. No longer an association of helpful
volunteers, AA has become a humble program of coercion, using our social
institutions to force its faith on the public at large. Its faith, however,
is founded on the belief that human beings are powerless over the bodily
desire for pleasure, which describes beasts of the field and not human
beings. Indeed, such a philosophy is corrosive to the cornerstones of human
civilization -- self-restraint and individual (read: moral) responsibility.
As a means to combat substance addiction, AA stands clearly as a colossal,
astronomically expensive, failure. As a government sponsored social program
(about half of the members are mandated!), AA is a danger to America.
History has shown that when the animal side of human nature is at the helm,
chaos is inevitable.
Let us believe in people, and not programs!
--
smash yer modem, reboot, kill yerself
Mel the Defiler
member, ATJ regs
webmaster of atjfaq.com
http://www.atjfaq.com/
.
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| User: "GlennS" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
07 Apr 2004 06:45:50 PM |
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"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote in alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 16:44:32 -0400, GlennS <GlennVA56@hotmail.com> wrote in
message <dc4670197vj6brd1kjtfbctmbssk7jd458@4ax.com>:
"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> <dgq570hjm5anoa8j2bh6n1kh3v6j903c0f@4ax.com>
"so let me get this straight, you won't believe that I was an addict simply
because I was able to quit using drugs and stay
off them without the aid of belonging to a 12 step cult?"
Do you understand the meaning of the word "because"?
Let's face it, the reason you refuse to believe that I was an addict is
because you have a huge problem reconciling your 12 step cult beliefs about
addiction with my account.
Let's face what?
hey, I just wrote what. do you have a problem understanding English?
Why do you keep parroting that made up tale
about the 12 steps, which I've neither stated nor implied?
C'mon Glenn, be a man and stop squirming on the hook.
It's finally becoming apparant to me that trying to talk
logically to you is of no use. You always resort to the same tactic.
You ignore my answers, and then claim that I said something that I
didn't say.
Why do you continue to support Rational Recovery, anyway, even
though you have stated many times that Jack Trimpey is a lunatic?
Glenn S.
"Home Grown" 12 Step Recovery Website at...
http://members.aol.com/GlennS1956
Suffering = clinging to that which changes...
.
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| User: "Zoogar, ruler of the Zerg" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
08 Apr 2004 12:44:00 AM |
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GlennS wrote:
"Mel" < > wrote
On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 16:44:32 -0400, GlennS <GlennVA56@hotmail.com> wrote
"Mel"
"so let me get this straight, you won't believe that I was an addict
simply because I was able to quit using drugs and stay
off them without the aid of belonging to a 12 step cult?"
Do you understand the meaning of the word "because"?
Let's face it, the reason you refuse to believe that I was an addict is
because you have a huge problem reconciling your 12 step cult beliefs
about addiction with my account.
Let's face what?
hey, I just wrote what. do you have a problem understanding English?
Why do you keep parroting that made up tale
about the 12 steps, which I've neither stated nor implied?
C'mon Glenn, be a man and stop squirming on the hook.
It's finally becoming apparant to me that trying to talk
logically to you is of no use. You always resort to the same tactic.
You ignore my answers, and then claim that I said something that I
didn't say.
you implied it. what other conclusion would you have me draw?
Why do you continue to support Rational Recovery, anyway, even
though you have stated many times that Jack Trimpey is a lunatic?
are you tripping?
--
zoogar
http://www.atjfaq.com/
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.647 / Virus Database: 414 - Release Date: 29/03/04
.
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| User: "GlennS" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
09 Apr 2004 04:29:01 AM |
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"Zoogar, ruler of the Zerg" <zoogar@mailinator.com> wrote in
alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
Why do you continue to support Rational Recovery, anyway, even
though you have stated many times that Jack Trimpey is a lunatic?
are you tripping?
You shouldn't say things that you don't want to admit to
later.
Glenn S.
"Home Grown" 12 Step Recovery Website at...
http://members.aol.com/GlennS1956
Suffering = clinging to that which changes...
.
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| User: "Kai R" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
07 Apr 2004 01:27:19 AM |
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Mel wrote:
All Kai wants to know is how to stop being an "addict" so he can booze and
drug it up. Simple Kai doesn't seem able to grasp that boozing and drugging
it up is *addiction*. LOL. Poor devil.
Really?
That illustrates, right there, the problem with 12 step thinking. 12 step
cultists think that IF ONLY they were not addicts, they could drug it up
24/7. LOL. Do you see the confusion there? They don't know whether they are
coming or going.
Umm, okay. I see you're back into doing crack. It's okay, really, just
go ahead.
I had no trouble understanding I could never go back to using alcohol
as I was addicted to it. The only choice was to accept the condition
and try to make best of it. Nowadays drinking is a non-issue, as I no
longer feel the need to alter my mind with alcohol.
--
Kai
"Gee, I wish we had one of them doomsday machines."
- General "Buck" Turgidson -
.
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| User: "Mel" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
07 Apr 2004 11:52:48 AM |
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On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 09:27:19 +0300, Kai R <soberon@nospamo.luukku.com> wrote
in message <c50708$lf6$1@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi>:
Mel wrote:
All Kai wants to know is how to stop being an "addict" so he can booze and
drug it up. Simple Kai doesn't seem able to grasp that boozing and drugging
it up is *addiction*. LOL. Poor devil.
Really?
you tell me, Kai.
That illustrates, right there, the problem with 12 step thinking. 12 step
cultists think that IF ONLY they were not addicts, they could drug it up
24/7. LOL. Do you see the confusion there? They don't know whether they are
coming or going.
Umm, okay. I see you're back into doing crack. It's okay, really, just
go ahead.
LOL that would suit you wouldn't it? if I wasn't really clean. that would
help you preserve all your cherished cult beliefs.
then you don't have to face the "awful" reality that NA didn't help me at
all, rather it contributed to my problems. it hindered my "escape" from drug
addiction by telling me a bunch of ***** that held me back.
I have "got clean" more than once the NA Way, but that has never lasted more
than 3 months. Sooner or later, my brain rejects the NA programming as
false.
--
smash yer modem, reboot, kill yerself
Mel the Defiler
member, ATJ regs
webmaster of atjfaq.com
http://www.atjfaq.com/
.
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| User: "Leisure Suit Lamey" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
07 Apr 2004 03:10:16 PM |
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LOL that would suit you wouldn't it? if I wasn't really clean. that would
help you preserve all your cherished cult beliefs.
then you don't have to face the "awful" reality that NA didn't help me at
all, rather it contributed to my problems. it hindered my "escape" from drug
addiction by telling me a bunch of ***** that held me back.
I have "got clean" more than once the NA Way, but that has never lasted more
than 3 months. Sooner or later, my brain rejects the NA programming as
false.
Are you clean now? When was the last time you used?
.
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| User: "Zoogar, ruler of the Zerg" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
08 Apr 2004 10:25:13 AM |
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Leisure Suit Lamey wrote:
LOL that would suit you wouldn't it? if I wasn't really clean. that would
help you preserve all your cherished cult beliefs.
then you don't have to face the "awful" reality that NA didn't help me at
all, rather it contributed to my problems. it hindered my "escape" from
drug addiction by telling me a bunch of ***** that held me back.
I have "got clean" more than once the NA Way, but that has never lasted
more than 3 months. Sooner or later, my brain rejects the NA programming
as false.
Are you clean now?
I have stated that already. yes.
When was the last time you used?
I don't divulge my clean time because it is none of your business.
Unlike NA, Rational Recovery does not ask it's adherents to count clean
time. In fact it states the opposite - forget about it. It's Beast behaviour
to recall the last time you used.
--
zoogar
http://www.atjfaq.com/
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.647 / Virus Database: 414 - Release Date: 29/03/04
.
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| User: "GlennS" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
09 Apr 2004 04:29:03 AM |
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"Zoogar, ruler of the Zerg" <zoogar@mailinator.com> wrote in
alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
Unlike NA, Rational Recovery does not ask it's adherents to count clean
time. In fact it states the opposite - forget about it. It's Beast behaviour
to recall the last time you used.
That's because, unlike NA, Rational Recovery doesn't exist. A
website and a book of resentments does not make an organization or a
program.
Glenn S.
"Home Grown" 12 Step Recovery Website at...
http://members.aol.com/GlennS1956
Suffering = clinging to that which changes...
.
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| User: "Douglas D. Anderson" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
09 Apr 2004 11:07:49 AM |
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"GlennS" <GlennVA56@hotmail.com> wrote
"Zoogar, ruler of the Zerg" <zoogar@mailinator.com> wrote in
alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
Unlike NA, Rational Recovery does not ask it's adherents to count clean
time. In fact it states the opposite - forget about it. It's Beast behaviour
to recall the last time you used.
That's because, unlike NA, Rational Recovery doesn't exist. A
website and a book of resentments does not make an organization or a
program.
Most stores keep the NA right next to the regular beer. That makes
it easy to get them mixed up if you've had a few too many.
.
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| User: "Mel" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
10 Apr 2004 07:41:02 AM |
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On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 05:29:03 -0400, GlennS <GlennVA56@hotmail.com> wrote in
message <qopc70dkdsosk9ju34hvui6jveo52c91j9@4ax.com>:
"Zoogar, ruler of the Zerg" <zoogar@mailinator.com> wrote in
alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
Unlike NA, Rational Recovery does not ask it's adherents to count clean
time. In fact it states the opposite - forget about it. It's Beast behaviour
to recall the last time you used.
That's because, unlike NA, Rational Recovery doesn't exist. A
website and a book of resentments does not make an organization or a
program.
RR is a technique, not an organisation.
--
smash yer modem, reboot, kill yerself
Mel the Defiler
member, ATJ regs
webmaster of atjfaq.com
http://www.atjfaq.com/
.
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| User: "GlennS" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
10 Apr 2004 09:21:54 AM |
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"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote in alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 05:29:03 -0400, GlennS <GlennVA56@hotmail.com> wrote in
message <qopc70dkdsosk9ju34hvui6jveo52c91j9@4ax.com>:
"Zoogar, ruler of the Zerg" <zoogar@mailinator.com> wrote in
alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
Unlike NA, Rational Recovery does not ask it's adherents to count clean
time. In fact it states the opposite - forget about it. It's Beast behaviour
to recall the last time you used.
That's because, unlike NA, Rational Recovery doesn't exist. A
website and a book of resentments does not make an organization or a
program.
RR is a technique, not an organisation.
You're right. I watched as the orgainzation crumbled into
dust. It was because of all that AA bashing.
Glenn S.
"Home Grown" 12 Step Recovery Website at...
http://members.aol.com/GlennS1956
Suffering = clinging to that which changes...
.
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| User: "Mel" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
11 Apr 2004 07:02:08 AM |
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On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 10:21:54 -0400, GlennS <GlennVA56@hotmail.com> wrote in
message <brvf709n37e6qo3dmhvnpuhjrjtevcqhjj@4ax.com>:
"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote in alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 05:29:03 -0400, GlennS <GlennVA56@hotmail.com> wrote in
"Zoogar, ruler of the Zerg" <zoogar@mailinator.com> wrote in
alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
Unlike NA, Rational Recovery does not ask it's adherents to count clean
time. In fact it states the opposite - forget about it. It's Beast behaviour
to recall the last time you used.
That's because, unlike NA, Rational Recovery doesn't exist. A
website and a book of resentments does not make an organization or a
program.
RR is a technique, not an organisation.
You're right. I watched as the orgainzation crumbled into
dust. It was because of all that AA bashing.
RR used to hold meetings, but they found no value to them. All meetings full
of addicts do is bring together people who will harm each other.
As is easy to imagine, people who are addicted to drugs are often bottom
dwelling scum. It is this knowledge that deterred me from approaching NA
when I discovered I had a problem with drug use.
I preferred to go to a rehab, little knowing that they would farm me out to
NA.
Putting bottom dwelling scum together is not likely to achieve much except
more abuse.
I am sure that you know of many cases of NA members finding new drug
partners, new dealers and new techniques through linking up with addicts at
meetings. I have seen and experienced all that.
--
smash yer modem, reboot, kill yerself
Mel the Defiler
member, ATJ regs
webmaster of atjfaq.com
http://www.atjfaq.com/
.
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| User: "GlennS" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
11 Apr 2004 11:23:51 AM |
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"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote in alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 10:21:54 -0400, GlennS <GlennVA56@hotmail.com> wrote in
message <brvf709n37e6qo3dmhvnpuhjrjtevcqhjj@4ax.com>:
"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote in alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 05:29:03 -0400, GlennS <GlennVA56@hotmail.com> wrote in
"Zoogar, ruler of the Zerg" <zoogar@mailinator.com> wrote in
alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
Unlike NA, Rational Recovery does not ask it's adherents to count clean
time. In fact it states the opposite - forget about it. It's Beast behaviour
to recall the last time you used.
That's because, unlike NA, Rational Recovery doesn't exist. A
website and a book of resentments does not make an organization or a
program.
RR is a technique, not an organisation.
You're right. I watched as the orgainzation crumbled into
dust. It was because of all that AA bashing.
RR used to hold meetings, but they found no value to them. All meetings full
of addicts do is bring together people who will harm each other.
Then why did RR try to hold meetings in the first place? You
sure do contradict yourself a lot. Even within the same paragraph.
A more accurate statement would be, "RR used to hold meetings,
but they found no people to attend them".
As is easy to imagine, people who are addicted to drugs are often bottom
dwelling scum.
I take it all back. Maybe you WERE an addict, after all!
;-)
It is this knowledge that deterred me from approaching NA
when I discovered I had a problem with drug use.
I preferred to go to a rehab, little knowing that they would farm me out to
NA.
Putting bottom dwelling scum together is not likely to achieve much except
more abuse.
So you and ZooGuy being Usenet partners is why yall both still
drink alcohol! Now you're starting to make sense!
I am sure that you know of many cases of NA members finding new drug
partners, new dealers and new techniques through linking up with addicts at
meetings. I have seen and experienced all that.
If someone doesn't want to do whatever it takes to get clean,
and wants to find a using buddy, they can find one anywhere. You'd
have known that, if you'd ever been an addict.
Glenn S.
"Home Grown" 12 Step Recovery Website at...
http://members.aol.com/GlennS1956
Suffering = clinging to that which changes...
.
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| User: "Mel" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
12 Apr 2004 12:38:49 PM |
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On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 12:23:51 -0400, GlennS <GlennVA56@hotmail.com> wrote in
message <diri70lidug2p93mimcup7njj3shdjhemc@4ax.com>:
"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote in alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 10:21:54 -0400, GlennS <GlennVA56@hotmail.com> wrote in
"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote in alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 05:29:03 -0400, GlennS <GlennVA56@hotmail.com> wrote in
"Zoogar, ruler of the Zerg" <zoogar@mailinator.com> wrote in
alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
Unlike NA, Rational Recovery does not ask it's adherents to count clean
time. In fact it states the opposite - forget about it. It's Beast behaviour
to recall the last time you used.
That's because, unlike NA, Rational Recovery doesn't exist. A
website and a book of resentments does not make an organization or a
program.
RR is a technique, not an organisation.
You're right. I watched as the orgainzation crumbled into
dust. It was because of all that AA bashing.
RR used to hold meetings, but they found no value to them. All meetings full
of addicts do is bring together people who will harm each other.
Then why did RR try to hold meetings in the first place?
Jack's idea at the time.
You sure do contradict yourself a lot. Even within the same paragraph.
A more accurate statement would be, "RR used to hold meetings,
but they found no people to attend them".
I'm glad. meetings are worse than redundant. they are a complete waste of
time and money plus you get to meet up with scum.
i'm a decent person. i come from a decent family and i went to a good
school. i have never been in trouble with the law or been arrested.
i happen to have made a mistake late in life (when i was 29) rather than
like many addicts who have used since their teens and been scum of the earth
from day one.
i am not like the typical NA piece of ***** drug addict. i have no desire to
mingle with such scum.
So you and ZooGuy being Usenet partners is why yall both still
drink alcohol! Now you're starting to make sense!
I post as Mel and Zoogar. haven't you worked that out yet?
If someone doesn't want to do whatever it takes to get clean,
and wants to find a using buddy, they can find one anywhere. You'd
have known that, if you'd ever been an addict.
some piece of filth latched onto me.
--
smash yer modem, reboot, kill yerself
Mel the Defiler
member, ATJ regs
webmaster of atjfaq.com
http://www.atjfaq.com/
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| User: "GlennS" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
12 Apr 2004 06:03:50 PM |
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"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote in alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
I post as Mel and Zoogar. haven't you worked that out yet?
Schizophrenic, huh? I told you that you need to see a
psychiatrist.
Glenn S.
"Home Grown" 12 Step Recovery Website at...
http://members.aol.com/GlennS1956
Suffering = clinging to that which changes...
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| User: "Mel" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
13 Apr 2004 02:27:34 AM |
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On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 19:03:50 -0400, GlennS <GlennVA56@hotmail.com> wrote in
message <ge7m70tv03c41m29cder0hgfu1vks3bupn@4ax.com>:
"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote in alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
I post as Mel and Zoogar. haven't you worked that out yet?
Schizophrenic, huh? I told you that you need to see a
psychiatrist.
you're this stupid, aren't you?
You are proving to everyone why NA is a good place NOT to go.
--
smash yer modem, reboot, kill yerself
Mel the Defiler
member, ATJ regs
webmaster of atjfaq.com
http://www.atjfaq.com/
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| User: "Leisure Suit Lamey" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
13 Apr 2004 06:37:57 AM |
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On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 09:27:34 +0200, "Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 19:03:50 -0400, GlennS <GlennVA56@hotmail.com> wrote in
message <ge7m70tv03c41m29cder0hgfu1vks3bupn@4ax.com>:
"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote in alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
I post as Mel and Zoogar. haven't you worked that out yet?
Schizophrenic, huh? I told you that you need to see a
psychiatrist.
you're this stupid, aren't you?
You are proving to everyone why NA is a good place NOT to go.
Are you smoking the rock again?
.
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| User: "Mel" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
13 Apr 2004 05:38:12 PM |
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On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 11:37:57 GMT, Leisure Suit Lamey <justme@youguess.com>
wrote in message <150d4a3fd4894c814e41e493357533fc@news.teranews.com>:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 09:27:34 +0200, "Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 19:03:50 -0400, GlennS <GlennVA56@hotmail.com> wrote in
"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote in alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
I post as Mel and Zoogar. haven't you worked that out yet?
Schizophrenic, huh? I told you that you need to see a
psychiatrist.
you're this stupid, aren't you?
You are proving to everyone why NA is a good place NOT to go.
Are you smoking the rock again?
Will you please make up your mind as to whether I am an addict, was an
addict or ever used crack?
In some posts you seem to think that I have never used crack, in others you
claim that I am still using crack.
Please decide.
--
smash yer modem, reboot, kill yerself
Mel the Defiler
member, ATJ regs
webmaster of atjfaq.com
http://www.atjfaq.com/
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| User: "Leisure Suit Lamey" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
12 Apr 2004 01:27:46 PM |
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Then why did RR try to hold meetings in the first place?
Jack's idea at the time.
You sure do contradict yourself a lot. Even within the same paragraph.
A more accurate statement would be, "RR used to hold meetings,
but they found no people to attend them".
I'm glad. meetings are worse than redundant. they are a complete waste of
time and money plus you get to meet up with scum.
So if they are not up to your standards <which are not to high it
would appear> them they are scum?
i'm a decent person. i come from a decent family and i went to a good
school. i have never been in trouble with the law or been arrested.
So what? What has that do do with anything?
i happen to have made a mistake late in life (when i was 29) rather than
like many addicts who have used since their teens and been scum of the earth
from day one.
Ha Ha, You S.afreekaners are some fucked up people.
i am not like the typical NA piece of ***** drug addict. i have no desire to
mingle with such scum.
The point made, You have never been addicted.
So you and ZooGuy being Usenet partners is why yall both still
drink alcohol! Now you're starting to make sense!
I post as Mel and Zoogar. haven't you worked that out yet?
See what that crack did to you?
If someone doesn't want to do whatever it takes to get clean,
and wants to find a using buddy, they can find one anywhere. You'd
have known that, if you'd ever been an addict.
some piece of filth latched onto me.
That's no way to talk about your mother.
.
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| User: "Mel" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
13 Apr 2004 02:27:32 AM |
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On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 18:27:46 GMT, Leisure Suit Lamey <justme@youguess.com>
wrote in message <82eb88ce7f013d88e3f9b6650c3f343b@news.teranews.com>:
So if they are not up to your standards <which are not to high it
would appear> them they are scum?
Well it is easy to see that you are scum. And you attend NA. QED.
i am not like the typical NA piece of ***** drug addict. i have no desire to
mingle with such scum.
The point made, You have never been addicted.
This would be news to my ex-wife who divorced me because I kept on using
crack.
--
smash yer modem, reboot, kill yerself
Mel the Defiler
member, ATJ regs
webmaster of atjfaq.com
http://www.atjfaq.com/
.
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| User: "GlennS" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
13 Apr 2004 04:31:40 AM |
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"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote in alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 18:27:46 GMT, Leisure Suit Lamey <justme@youguess.com>
wrote in message <82eb88ce7f013d88e3f9b6650c3f343b@news.teranews.com>:
So if they are not up to your standards <which are not to high it
would appear> them they are scum?
Well it is easy to see that you are scum. And you attend NA. QED.
i am not like the typical NA piece of ***** drug addict. i have no desire to
mingle with such scum.
The point made, You have never been addicted.
This would be news to my ex-wife who divorced me because I kept on using
crack.
You have proven that the more likely reason that she left you
is because you are mentally ill. No woman would stay with a man that
repeatedly accuses her of saying things that she never said, and
constantly being a jerk and a bonehead. That you got someone to marry
you at all is a major miracle.
Glenn S.
"Home Grown" 12 Step Recovery Website at...
http://members.aol.com/GlennS1956
Suffering = clinging to that which changes...
.
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| User: "Mel" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
13 Apr 2004 03:16:48 PM |
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On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 05:31:40 -0400, GlennS <GlennVA56@hotmail.com> wrote in
message <fjcn70db93thgl3ehurn0brf41p6jv8a3r@4ax.com>:
"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote in alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 18:27:46 GMT, Leisure Suit Lamey <justme@youguess.com>
So if they are not up to your standards <which are not to high it
would appear> them they are scum?
Well it is easy to see that you are scum. And you attend NA. QED.
i am not like the typical NA piece of ***** drug addict. i have no desire to
mingle with such scum.
The point made, You have never been addicted.
This would be news to my ex-wife who divorced me because I kept on using
crack.
You have proven that the more likely reason that she left you
is because you are mentally ill. No woman would stay with a man that
repeatedly accuses her of saying things that she never said, and
constantly being a jerk and a bonehead. That you got someone to marry
you at all is a major miracle.
Glenn, you're such a wonderful example of the kind of person NA produces.
--
smash yer modem, reboot, kill yerself
Mel the Defiler
member, ATJ regs
webmaster of atjfaq.com
http://www.atjfaq.com/
.
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| User: "GlennS" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
13 Apr 2004 07:29:03 PM |
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"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote in alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 05:31:40 -0400, GlennS <GlennVA56@hotmail.com> wrote in
message <fjcn70db93thgl3ehurn0brf41p6jv8a3r@4ax.com>:
"Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote in alt.recovery.from-12-steps...
On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 18:27:46 GMT, Leisure Suit Lamey <justme@youguess.com>
So if they are not up to your standards <which are not to high it
would appear> them they are scum?
Well it is easy to see that you are scum. And you attend NA. QED.
i am not like the typical NA piece of ***** drug addict. i have no desire to
mingle with such scum.
The point made, You have never been addicted.
This would be news to my ex-wife who divorced me because I kept on using
crack.
You have proven that the more likely reason that she left you
is because you are mentally ill. No woman would stay with a man that
repeatedly accuses her of saying things that she never said, and
constantly being a jerk and a bonehead. That you got someone to marry
you at all is a major miracle.
Glenn, you're such a wonderful example of the kind of person NA produces.
Yep. I was pretty honest above, huh?
Glenn S.
"Home Grown" 12 Step Recovery Website at...
http://members.aol.com/GlennS1956
Suffering = clinging to that which changes...
.
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| User: "Mel" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
14 Apr 2004 07:37:49 PM |
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On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 20:29:03 -0400, GlennS <GlennVA56@hotmail.com> wrote in
message <a31p70l22gg9ipkkivp49dv1o4l2if0vbf@4ax.com>:
So if they are not up to your standards <which are not to high it
would appear> them they are scum?
Well it is easy to see that you are scum. And you attend NA. QED.
i am not like the typical NA piece of ***** drug addict. i have no desire to
mingle with such scum.
The point made, You have never been addicted.
This would be news to my ex-wife who divorced me because I kept on using
crack.
You have proven that the more likely reason that she left you
is because you are mentally ill. No woman would stay with a man that
repeatedly accuses her of saying things that she never said, and
constantly being a jerk and a bonehead. That you got someone to marry
you at all is a major miracle.
Glenn, you're such a wonderful example of the kind of person NA produces.
Yep. I was pretty honest above, huh?
you couldn't be further from the truth.
You know nothing about me and the life that I have lived.
At this very moment in my life, there is more than one woman who is
interested in having me in her life. There is also more than one man who
desires my company.
None of these people attend N.A.. I made "friends" whilst there, but the
minute I started discussing Rational Recovery concepts with them, they went
away. When I stopped attending N.A. many of them felt that I had returned to
addiction.
The cult of N.A. has persuaded them that N.A. is the only true method of
quitting drugs and those who stop believing in the N.A. method are doomed to
fail (at some point). So they treat me as if I am using and keep their
distance.
--
smash yer modem, reboot, kill yerself
Mel the Defiler
member, ATJ regs
webmaster of atjfaq.com
http://www.atjfaq.com/
.
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| User: "Leisure Suit Lamey" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
14 Apr 2004 07:38:51 PM |
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Yep. I was pretty honest above, huh?
you couldn't be further from the truth.
You know nothing about me and the life that I have lived.
As do you about addiction.
At this very moment in my life, there is more than one woman who is
interested in having me in her life. There is also more than one man who
desires my company.
Take the latter, you'll have a better chance.
None of these people attend N.A.. I made "friends" whilst there, but the
minute I started discussing Rational Recovery concepts with them, they went
away. When I stopped attending N.A. many of them felt that I had returned to
addiction.
So?
The cult of N.A. has persuaded them that N.A. is the only true method of
quitting drugs and those who stop believing in the N.A. method are doomed to
fail (at some point). So they treat me as if I am using and keep their
distance.
From the sounds of you on usenet? I would stay away too.
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| User: "Leisure Suit Lamey" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
13 Apr 2004 05:27:30 PM |
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Glenn, you're such a wonderful example of the kind of person NA produces.
And you're a prime example of what smoking crack does.
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| User: "Zoogar, ruler of the Zerg" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
14 Apr 2004 02:55:00 AM |
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Douglas D. Anderson wrote:
"Leisure Suit Lamey" <justme@youguess.com> wrote
Glenn, you're such a wonderful example of the kind of person NA
produces.
And you're a prime example of what smoking crack does.
Mel is a prime example of what someone _with_ a smoking crack does.
you want me, but you can't have me.
--
zoogar
http://www.atjfaq.com/
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.647 / Virus Database: 414 - Release Date: 29/03/04
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| User: "Leisure Suit Lamey" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
13 Apr 2004 06:37:02 AM |
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On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 09:27:32 +0200, "Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 18:27:46 GMT, Leisure Suit Lamey <justme@youguess.com>
wrote in message <82eb88ce7f013d88e3f9b6650c3f343b@news.teranews.com>:
So if they are not up to your standards <which are not to high it
would appear> them they are scum?
Well it is easy to see that you are scum. And you attend NA. QED.
I never was addicted to crack, you were, therefore you are scum. Drugs
are illegal, so you are scum.
i am not like the typical NA piece of ***** drug addict. i have no desire to
mingle with such scum.
The point made, You have never been addicted.
This would be news to my ex-wife who divorced me because I kept on using
crack.
You allowed it to go that far? Ya loser.
She divorced you because yer a dumbass.
.
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| User: "Mel" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
13 Apr 2004 05:38:11 PM |
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On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 11:37:02 GMT, Leisure Suit Lamey <justme@youguess.com>
wrote in message <5dcfe4c68e45c5a1eeff694520f34248@news.teranews.com>:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 09:27:32 +0200, "Mel" <mel@atj.faq.com> wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 18:27:46 GMT, Leisure Suit Lamey <justme@youguess.com>
So if they are not up to your standards <which are not to high it
would appear> them they are scum?
Well it is easy to see that you are scum. And you attend NA. QED.
I never was addicted to crack, you were,
I thought I was never addicted to crack?
Make up your mind. Either I was addicted to crack or not.
therefore you are scum. Drugs are illegal, so you are scum.
Yes, I'm scum. You're so right.
moron.
i am not like the typical NA piece of ***** drug addict. i have no desire to
mingle with such scum.
The point made, You have never been addicted.
This would be news to my ex-wife who divorced me because I kept on using
crack.
You allowed it to go that far? Ya loser.
She divorced you because yer a dumbass.
In Jan 1999 I looked her in the eye and told her that it wasn't going to
work and that we should get a divorce. Then my N.A. sponsor told me that I
should not make such a change "so early in my recovery". So instead of me
getting out on my terms at the point where I knew my marriage was
irretrievably broken down, I elected to take his advice because it resonated
with what was generally in circulation at N.A.. N.A. advises people not to
make any major changes to their relationships in the first year of
"recovery".
All that "good advice" did for me was to prolong our agonies. We should have
split then, rather than 22 months later.
I consider this all spilt milk now. But my point is simple - N.A. does not
hand out good advice to anyone.
N.A. is a cult. It aims to control all aspects of a person's life.
It basically wants its members to do everything it says. It wants its
members to attend meetings regularly for the rest of their lives and to get
involved in the organisation doing service.
It never wants members to leave. In fact in its official literature it
states this:
"We have learned from our group experience that those who keep coming to our
meetings regularly stay clean." P. 9
the converse implication is that if a N.A. member stops attending, they will
relapse and begin using drugs again and then die from it.
it is easy to show that N.A. is a harmful religious cult.
--
smash yer modem, reboot, kill yerself
Mel the Defiler
member, ATJ regs
webmaster of atjfaq.com
http://www.atjfaq.com/
.
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| User: "Leisure Suit Lamey" |
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| Title: Re: Rational Recovery Thought for the Day 03/29/04 |
11 Apr 2004 08:52:18 AM |
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RR used to hold meetings, but they found no value to them. All meetings full
of addicts do is bring together people who will harm each other.
As is easy to imagine, people who are addicted to drugs are often bottom
dwelling scum. It is this knowledge that deterred me from approaching NA
when I discovered I had a problem with drug use.
I preferred to go to a rehab, little knowing that they would farm me out to
NA.
Putting bottom dwelling scum together is not likely to achieve much except
more abuse.
I am sure that you know of many cases of NA members finding new drug
partners, new dealers and new techniques through linking up with addicts at
meetings. I have seen and experienced all that.
Only because you chose to. You get whet you give.
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