| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
06 Jul 2004 03:06:33 PM |
| Object: |
Re: religious freedom and heritage |
(K C) wrote:
:|"Mark Fournier" <elentar@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<H_2Gc.4529$JG5.180012@news20.bellglobal.com>...
:|> Lenin was a latecomer to the seperation of church and state. The first
:|> country to embrace this position was America, almost 150 years previously.
:|>
:|
:|Among the first acts of congress was appointing chaplains, which a
:|Supreme Court footnote said Madison agreed to.
And ther footnote is in error as you have been not only told but shown in
the past.
So you are back to trolling for effect again
:|The phrase "seperation of church and state" came from a letter of
:|President Jefferson in which he praised a specific religious group.
Irrelevant.
:|It should be noted that this President - Jefferson - who also attended
:|worship in the Congress Building and paid for the band to play there
:|out of gov funds - was not even in the country when the Bill of Rights
:|were written and,
(1) Irrelevant, since he was not the creator of the Constitutional
principle of church state separation. That was accomplished with the
unamended constitution in 1787.
(2) He wasn't?
Are you sure about that?
He was a member of Washington's Cabinet, was he not?
What was the date he returned to America from France?
What were the dates that the Congress debated the articles and finally
passed them?
:|therefore, could not a very good authority on the
:|meaning of the 1st Amend.
Actually he could have been a very good authority since the best authority,
james Madison was his best friend, maintained a constant exchange of
letters with Jefferson from 1776 till just before Jefferson's death in
1826.
Madison stood with Jefferson during the ten years struggle for religious
freedom in Virginia and many scholars feel that jefferson's stature for
religious freedom that Madison got passed into law in Virginia in 1786 was
the foundation for the religious clauses of the BORs that was written and
passed in 1789-91.
.
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| User: "Jeff Strickland" |
|
| Title: Re: religious freedom and heritage |
06 Jul 2004 03:37:05 PM |
|
|
<buckeye-ELO@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:5t0me01k64296585pusgjchnla9hbrml8b@4ax.com...
kands00@hotmail.com (K C) wrote:
:|"Mark Fournier" <elentar@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:<H_2Gc.4529$JG5.180012@news20.bellglobal.com>...
:|> Lenin was a latecomer to the seperation of church and state. The
first
:|> country to embrace this position was America, almost 150 years
previously.
:|>
:|
:|Among the first acts of congress was appointing chaplains, which a
:|Supreme Court footnote said Madison agreed to.
And ther footnote is in error as you have been not only told but shown in
the past.
So you are back to trolling for effect again
Talk about trolling! Most of us don't even see this post until you crosspost
and add several groups.
<snip rest>
.
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|
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: religious freedom and heritage |
07 Jul 2004 12:34:03 PM |
|
|
"Jeff Strickland" <beerman@yahoo.com> wrote:
:|
:|<buckeye-ELO@nospam.net> wrote in message
:|news:5t0me01k64296585pusgjchnla9hbrml8b@4ax.com...
:|> (K C) wrote:
:|>
:|> >:|"Mark Fournier" <elentar@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
:|news:<H_2Gc.4529$JG5.180012@news20.bellglobal.com>...
:|> >:|> Lenin was a latecomer to the seperation of church and state. The
:|first
:|> >:|> country to embrace this position was America, almost 150 years
:|previously.
:|> >:|>
:|> >:|
:|> >:|Among the first acts of congress was appointing chaplains, which a
:|> >:|Supreme Court footnote said Madison agreed to.
:|>
:|> And ther footnote is in error as you have been not only told but shown in
:|> the past.
:|> So you are back to trolling for effect again
:|>
:|>
:|
:|Talk about trolling! Most of us don't even see this post until you crosspost
:|and add several groups.
I like to help (K C) the internet self proclaimed
missionary, and frequently considered nut case out as much as I can.
After all he is the one who likes to post in groups that aren't related to
his topic. He likes to post a come on that is false, like you, and he knows
it is false.
:|<snip rest>
Now, would you like to address the actual
(K C) wrote:
:|"Mark Fournier" <elentar@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<H_2Gc.4529$JG5.180012@news20.bellglobal.com>...
:|> Lenin was a latecomer to the seperation of church and state. The first
:|> country to embrace this position was America, almost 150 years previously.
:|>
:|
:|Among the first acts of congress was appointing chaplains, which a
:|Supreme Court footnote said Madison agreed to.
And ther footnote is in error as you have been not only told but shown in
the past.
So you are back to trolling for effect again
:|The phrase "seperation of church and state" came from a letter of
:|President Jefferson in which he praised a specific religious group.
Irrelevant.
:|It should be noted that this President - Jefferson - who also attended
:|worship in the Congress Building and paid for the band to play there
:|out of gov funds - was not even in the country when the Bill of Rights
:|were written and,
(1) Irrelevant, since he was not the creator of the Constitutional
principle of church state separation. That was accomplished with the
unamended constitution in 1787.
(2) He wasn't?
Are you sure about that?
He was a member of Washington's Cabinet, was he not?
What was the date he returned to America from France?
What were the dates that the Congress debated the articles and finally
passed them?
:|therefore, could not a very good authority on the
:|meaning of the 1st Amend.
Actually he could have been a very good authority since the best authority,
james Madison was his best friend, maintained a constant exchange of
letters with Jefferson from 1776 till just before Jefferson's death in
1826.
Madison stood with Jefferson during the ten years struggle for religious
freedom in Virginia and many scholars feel that jefferson's stature for
religious freedom that Madison got passed into law in Virginia in 1786 was
the foundation for the religious clauses of the BORs that was written and
passed in 1789-91.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "K C" |
|
| Title: Re: religious freedom and heritage |
07 Jul 2004 11:39:01 AM |
|
|
:|It should be noted that this President - Jefferson - who also attended
:|worship in the Congress Building and paid for the band to play there
:|out of gov funds - was not even in the country when the Bill of Rights
:|were written and,
(2) He wasn't?
Are you sure about that?
He was a member of Washington's Cabinet, was he not?
What was the date he returned to America from France?
What were the dates that the Congress debated the articles and finally
passed them?
Yep. I'm sure. He wasn't there when it was made. The bill of rights
were created over two year that he was in France. It wasn't until
after them that he returned.
:|therefore, could not a very good authority on the
:|meaning of the 1st Amend.
Actually he could have been a very good authority since the best authority,
james Madison was his best friend, maintained a constant exchange of
letters with Jefferson from 1776 till just before Jefferson's death in
1826.
That makes a lot of sense. Being a friend of one member of the group
makes you an authority of an agreed principle among them. Madison
disagreed with many of those in the group about many things, but you
want his words to be the consensus?
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: religious freedom and heritage |
08 Jul 2004 08:16:13 AM |
|
|
(K C) wrote:
:|>
:|> >:|It should be noted that this President - Jefferson - who also attended
:|> >:|worship in the Congress Building and paid for the band to play there
:|> >:|out of gov funds - was not even in the country when the Bill of Rights
:|> >:|were written and,
:|>
:|> (2) He wasn't?
:|> Are you sure about that?
:|> He was a member of Washington's Cabinet, was he not?
:|> What was the date he returned to America from France?
:|> What were the dates that the Congress debated the articles and finally
:|> passed them?
:|
:|Yep. I'm sure. He wasn't there when it was made. The bill of rights
:|were created over two year that he was in France. It wasn't until
:|after them that he returned.
You don't know history very well, do you?
*********************************************************
Thomas Jefferson
1743-1826
http://www.fcps.k12.va.us/KingsParkES/technology/bios/jefferson.htm
He was called upon to represent the state again at the Continental
Congress and then moved to France in 1784 when asked to replace Benjamin
Franklin as the American Minister to France.
Jefferson returned to the US in 1789 and became the first Secretary of
State under President George Washington.
-------------------------------------------------------
Now for precise dates:
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/mtjhtml/mtjtime3a.html
July 5, 1784. Jefferson sails for Europe from Boston, accompanied by
his twelve-year-old daughter Martha (Patsy) and William Short as personal
secretary. . .
August 3, 1784. Jefferson and his party arrive in Le Havre and travel
on to Paris. . .
September 28, 1789, Jefferson departs for home from the French port of
Le Havre on board the Clermont. He does not learn of his appointment as
secretary of state until he arrives in Norfolk, Virginia on November 23. On
February 14, 1790 he accepts it reluctantly, because he had hoped to devote
his time to Monticello and his private affairs.
*************************************************************
BORs:
The articles now called the BORs were proposed before the House of
Representatives by James Madison on June 8, 1789. The bulk of the debates
over them took place in Congress, first in the House, then the Senate in
mid to late August, early September 1789. They were passed and sent to the
States for ratification end of September 1789.
Jefferson and Madison
Jefferson played a direct and indirect role in the BORs, particularly the
religious clauses of same.
The direct role consisted of several letters to Madison urging a BORs
written between the fall of 1787 and the spring of 1789.
The indirect role was in the form of Jefferson's stature for religious
freedom that Madison had gotten passed into law in Virginia in 1785. Most
scholars feel that document was the foundation for the religious clauses
that Madison proposed to Congress in June 1789 and the religious clauses of
the 1st Amendment.
:|
:|>
:|> >:|therefore, could not a very good authority on the
:|> >:|meaning of the 1st Amend.
:|>
:|> Actually he could have been a very good authority since the best authority,
:|> james Madison was his best friend, maintained a constant exchange of
:|> letters with Jefferson from 1776 till just before Jefferson's death in
:|> 1826.
:|
:|That makes a lot of sense. Being a friend of one member of the group
:|makes you an authority of an agreed principle among them. Madison
:|disagreed with many of those in the group about many things, but you
:|want his words to be the consensus?
LOL, nice try but very very lame.
James Madison and Thomas and others were strict separationists.
There is no secret to that.
James Madison met Thomas Jefferson in 1776-77. They were in agreement on
the topic of church state and stood should to should in the struggle to
gain religious freedom for Virginia from the time they met till Jefferson
went to France in 1784. Even after Jefferson went to France they continued
exchanging letters, ideas, etc some of which were on the topic of church
state.
In 1779 Jefferson had written his Statute for Religious Freedom as part of
the revisions of laws that he participated in. However that law was not
passed until Madison got it passed into law in Virginia in 1785 after
madison had led the fight to defeat Patrick Henry's bill for the support of
teachers of the Christian Religion.
Jefferson's Statute for Religious freedom is consigned by most scholars to
have been the foundation Madison used to write the proposed religious
articles the he presented to Congress in June 1789.
That bill is considered to be the foundation of the religious clauses of
the 1st Amendment.
Now, are you able to understand how like minded those two men were on that
particular topic?
Next. James Madison is by far the father of religious freedom in Virginia
and in the US today, even more so than Jefferson, because it was Madison
who actually steered the articles through the House, Madison that had a
hand in the final wording that makes up the Establishment and free exercise
clauses as they are today and Madison through actions, writings and a
series of vetoes that gave them meaning early on.
it is some of those writings that modern courts cite in church state
cases.
Anything else you need to know?
.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
|
| Title: Re: religious freedom and heritage |
07 Jul 2004 10:40:16 PM |
|
|
(K C) wrote:
:|It should be noted that this President - Jefferson - who also attended
:|worship in the Congress Building and paid for the band to play there
:|out of gov funds - was not even in the country when the Bill of Rights
:|were written and,
(2) He wasn't?
Are you sure about that?
He was a member of Washington's Cabinet, was he not?
What was the date he returned to America from France?
What were the dates that the Congress debated the articles and finally
passed them?
Yep. I'm sure. He wasn't there when it was made. The bill of rights
were created over two year that he was in France. It wasn't until
after them that he returned.
http://www.colonialhall.com/jefferson/jefferson6.php
<In 1785, Mr. Jefferson was appointed to succeed Doctor Franklin as
< minister plenipotentiary to the court of Versailles. The duties of
< this station he continued to perform until October, 1789, when he
< obtained leave to retire, just on the eve of that tremendous
< revolution which has so much agitated the world in our times.
<... In the year 1789, he returned to his native country.
While Jefferson was not back before Congress passed the BofR, he was
in active correspondence with Madison during that period (and since he
wasn't in Congress that was as good as he could get), and he WAS in
the country during the ratification process, which lasted from late in
1789 to the end of 1791.
http://1stam.umn.edu/main/historic/BoR_Ratification.htm
:|therefore, could not a very good authority on the
:|meaning of the 1st Amend.
Actually he could have been a very good authority since the best authority,
james Madison was his best friend, maintained a constant exchange of
letters with Jefferson from 1776 till just before Jefferson's death in
1826.
That makes a lot of sense. Being a friend of one member of the group
makes you an authority of an agreed principle among them. Madison
disagreed with many of those in the group about many things, but you
want his words to be the consensus?
Madison was the one who drafted the BofR, and who led the debates on
them. Given that Jefferson was not a member of Congress, he
undoubtedly had surpassing influence on that document as compared to
most citizens, because of his access to Madison.
lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
.
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| User: "Gray Shockley" |
|
| Title: Re: religious freedom and heritage |
07 Jul 2004 09:39:19 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 11:39:01 -0500, K C wrote
(in article <2aab65fe.0407070839.7f579a55@posting.google.com>):
It should be noted that this President - Jefferson - who also attended
worship in the Congress Building and paid for the band to play there
out of gov funds - was not even in the country when the Bill of Rights
were written and,
(2) He wasn't?
Are you sure about that?
He was a member of Washington's Cabinet, was he not?
What was the date he returned to America from France?
What were the dates that the Congress debated the articles and finally
passed them?
Yep. I'm sure. He wasn't there when it was made. The bill of rights
were created over two year that he was in France. It wasn't until
after them that he returned.
therefore, could not a very good authority on the
meaning of the 1st Amend.
Actually he could have been a very good authority since the best authority,
james Madison was his best friend, maintained a constant exchange of
letters with Jefferson from 1776 till just before Jefferson's death in
1826.
That makes a lot of sense. Being a friend of one member of the group
makes you an authority of an agreed principle among them. Madison
disagreed with many of those in the group about many things, but you
want his words to be the consensus?
<http://vastudies.pwnet.org/vs6/vs6_b.htm>
.
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