| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Pastor Fank" |
| Date: |
19 Sep 2004 06:26:52 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Repost - Why God created us to suffer |
"Gwar" <xeno@xor.qua> wrote in message
news:20040919010258.P22946@synergy.transbay.net...
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004, emjee wrote:
Satan blew his chance at salvation, because of his pride. You know
anyone like that today? We all do. Satan HAD his chance. God is giving
you the same chance he had. Which will you choose?
Call the Better Deity Bureau & report this extortion racket you're caught
up in.
Religion being an "extortion racket"? That's atheism and should be
posted to atheist NG, not to our pristine Christian ones. I will post you
over to them, (again!!!!!).
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Repost - Why God created us to suffer |
12 Oct 2004 03:51:17 AM |
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"Hector Plasmic" <hec@hectorplasmic.com> wrote in message
news:2c0a0281.0410110800.43e9829f@posting.google.com...
"steve" <a@b.com> wrote in message
news:<10mdb852n289i30@corp.supernews.com>...
Nevertheless, a creator's creation reflects the creator. An
imperfect creation must have been created by an imperfect
creator, as a perfect creator obviously must create perfectly.
i would contend that g either exists and is not in evidence
or does not exist and is not in evidence.
And anyone should feel free to provide the evidence if they disagree.
:-)
either way, we cannot determine anything about
her including your conclusion above.
In discussing the gods, we do so based on the claims of theists. Thus
we can talk about those claims and draw conclusions about the gods
described by those claims just as we might talk about Sherlock Holmes
and draw conclusions about he and Dr. Watson based upon the stories of
Arthur Conan Doyle.
You should be sure not confuse reality with fantasy in either
direction. :-)
God(s) are symbols representing some ideal one seeks to live up to, such
as the unconditional love of Christ, or the greed of Mammon etc. etc. You
don't discuss god(s) Hec, you invariably trash them with currently
fashionable reasoning.
I.e. is it a sign of "unconditional love" to punish your child, for
insisting on playing on the highway / taking drugs / etc. etc. despite your
repeated warnings about the possible deadly consequences, or is it hate?
Atheists invariably vote for hate, for they even resent their moms for
telling them to be good boys and girls, let alone having God through Christ
telling them and demonstrating the same thing. Yet when they land in a
living hell caused by their actions, they also hate both for not not
forcibly saving them from the consequences of what they did.
Furthermore, when atheists are confronted with reason, they invariably
go into the trashing and flaming mode, consistent with their
hate-orientation.
Pastor Frank
**Jesus in Matt 5:11, 12: Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and
persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my
sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: For great is your reward in heaven:
for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
**Jesus in Jn:16:2-3 They shall put you out of their houses of worship: Yea,
the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God
service. And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known
the Father, nor me.
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| User: "Hector Plasmic" |
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| Title: Re: Repost - Why God created us to suffer |
13 Oct 2004 12:19:00 PM |
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"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> wrote in message news:<6iYad.694$57.331@fe51.usenetserver.com>...
i would contend that g either exists and is not in evidence
or does not exist and is not in evidence.
And anyone should feel free to provide the evidence if
they disagree. :-)
Gee, Frankie, you failed to do so. Amazing!
In discussing the gods, we do so based on the claims of theists.
Thus
we can talk about those claims and draw conclusions about the gods
described by those claims just as we might talk about Sherlock
Holmes
and draw conclusions about he and Dr. Watson based upon the stories
of
Arthur Conan Doyle.
You should be sure not confuse reality with fantasy in either
direction. :-)
God(s) are symbols
Then gods don't create universes or love people or anything else, for
that matter, as they are merely symbols (and religions that forbid
graven images of the gods are hypocritical). In fact, we may simply
refer to the things of which gods are symbols and dispense with the
gods altogether!
Congratulations, Frankie, you've once again painted yourself into the
"I was lying so I wouldn't have to back up my claims" or "My gods
don't exist except as redundant symbology so I really have nothing to
say" corner.
You don't discuss god(s) Hec, you invariably trash
them with currently fashionable reasoning.
So I've got reasoning (fashionable or otherwise), and you sit there
with -- nothing at all. Ergo, I am discussing the gods (reasoning
about them using the claims of theists as a basis) while you are not
-- cannot, in fact.
Furthermore, when atheists are confronted with reason,
they invariably go into the trashing and flaming mode,
consistent with their hate-orientation.
ROFL! How would you know, Frankie? You have yet to confront an
atheist with reason. Tell you what -- trot some out (fashionable or
otherwise) and let's put your unsupported claim to the test, eh?
I predict you will fail to do so. Again. Not because I "hate" you
(or would that be "Satan" you in your world, Frankie? :-), silly
fundy, but simply because you're so painfully predictable.
Hec
http://hectorplasmic.com
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| User: "The Last Liberal" |
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| Title: Re: Repost - Why God created us to suffer |
12 Oct 2004 06:18:10 PM |
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On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 04:51:17 -0400, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.com> wrote:
God(s) are symbols representing some ideal one seeks to live up to, such
as the unconditional love of Christ,
Zero evidence, ergo dismissed.
or the greed of Mammon etc. etc.
So all Republicans are idolators.
You don't discuss god(s) Hec, you invariably trash them with currently
fashionable reasoning.
Reasoning certainly isn't fashionable in the USA. Funny you would seem
to be snearing at reason.
--
"Terrorism" isn't the enemy: George W Bush is!
http://lastliberal.org
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| User: "steve" |
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| Title: Re: Repost - Why God created us to suffer |
11 Oct 2004 11:25:57 AM |
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| You should be sure not confuse reality with fantasy in either
| direction. :-)
yes, i often forget the theist's love of the latter and discuss things as
the based in the former...as is my prediliction. ;^)
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| User: "steve" |
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| Title: Re: Repost - Why God created us to suffer |
06 Oct 2004 01:54:10 PM |
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| Not at all. There is no need to be imperfect to create imperfection,
for
| the opposite is demanded of us. We imperfect sinners are to bring about
| God's perfect world, the Kingdom of heaven, or Nirvana as you will have
it.
this g should run for president as he would fit right in between kerry and
bush..."i'm perfect, but i'll kick back and amuse myself watching
imperfection attempt to create something it cannot know...and, if in the end
they figure out how to do it, i'll have saved myself from having had to
extend a *breath* to get it done myself."
| Is that YOUR reason for rejecting any and all efforts to improve upon
| the human condition and therewith the quality of existence?
the better question to ask (besides one that stays inline with to
post/topic) is why would you consider the creator of an imperfect world
worthly of thanks for then turning around to try and clean up the conditions
in which we find ourselves. if g created us as we are then it is *his*
condition not *human* condition. and moreover, if we were created in *his*
image in the first place, then it is very reasonable to infer that he is
less than perfect himself.
|| Why not go on and deplore the fact, that we have to eat and work and
die
| etc. etc., and why God drove mankind out of paradize from the moment we
| realized the difference between good and evil?
i've covered that bridge with you...and if any book of the bible was the
biggest candidate for qualifying as a fairytale, it would be genesis.
| You keep being stuck in the same logical trap. How can one freely
choose
| good over evil, in a world which is already perfect and where evil no
longer
| exists, in fact where evil is totally unknown?
while you are *lost* to any logic that demands you either call god less than
omnipotent because of his apparent need of a polar idiom (evil) in order to
be "known", or that he is less than omniscient for his lack of creativity in
finding other ways by which we can "know" his attributes and more clearly
understan his nature. again, "know" is only an given assumption to rebut the
immediate topic. the real truth is god is null and, any additional assurtion
stemming from one whose state (true/false) is unknown is meaningless and
likewise null.
| Is that what you would do if you were God? If you think things through
| you will find that most such scenarios would end life, if not existence
very
| quickly.
if i were like god, null, i would be able to do nothing.
|Please correct me, and tell us what
| your supposed superior honesty consist of on the Christian scale of
honest -
| dishonest.
please tell us frank, where do you see yourself within the scale of reason -
utterly incompetent to no concept of reason whatsoever! i would rank you
even below the latter...which should be considered a compliment - everyone
else reading your dribble would say i was being nice.
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| User: "Icarus" |
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| Title: Re: Repost - Why God created us to suffer |
05 Oct 2004 11:41:05 AM |
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Hector Plasmic wrote (amongst other things):
"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> wrote in message
<snip>
The sole reason why God did create the world imperfect is
to give us something worthwhile to do with our lives
Your argument leads us directly to this argument:
1. A being cannot have a worthwhile life without the ability
to choose to perform and the ability to perform evil.
2. God cannot choose to do evil.
3. Therefore, God's life is worthless.
<chortle>...
Nice one.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Repost - Why God created us to suffer |
06 Oct 2004 09:49:12 AM |
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"Icarus" <icarus_uk@email.com> wrote in message
news:2sg0soF1khv78U1@uni-berlin.de...
Hector Plasmic wrote (amongst other things):
"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> wrote in message
<snip>
The sole reason why God did create the world imperfect is
to give us something worthwhile to do with our lives improving
upon what we find and leaving the world in a better condition, t
than when we came.
Your argument leads us directly to this argument:
1. A being cannot have a worthwhile life without the ability
to choose to perform and the ability to perform evil.
So far so good. Except that the being must have been created with a free
will, which only humans have.
2. God cannot choose to do evil.
To God all thing are possible (Mk 10:27), but since God is almighty He
can choose to do no evil, something we are to attain to.
3. Therefore, God's life is worthless.
"Worthless" by which standard of worth? Yours? LOL
<chortle>... Nice one.
Indeed!!!!!
Pastor Frank
Jesus in Mk:10:27: And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is
impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
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| User: "Hector Plasmic" |
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| Title: Re: Repost - Why God created us to suffer |
07 Oct 2004 08:18:49 AM |
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"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> wrote in message news:<2hU8d.9$1R2.2@fe51.usenetserver.com>...
The sole reason why God did create the world imperfect is
to give us something worthwhile to do with our lives improving
upon what we find and leaving the world in a better condition, t
than when we came.
Your argument leads us directly to this argument:
1. A being cannot have a worthwhile life without the
ability to choose to perform and the ability to perform
evil.
So far so good. Except that the being must have been
created with a free will, which only humans have.
So who forces a dog to choose left, right, ahead or back at the
crossing of two paths?
God has no free will? God is an automaton? Did you really mean to
say that?
2. God cannot choose to do evil.
To God all thing are possible
Really? Can it both exist and not exist? And you just told us it is
not possible for God to make a free will decision...
3. Therefore, God's life is worthless.
"Worthless" by which standard of worth? Yours?
No, yours. Reread the argument again. :-)
<chortle>... Nice one.
Indeed!!!!!
ROFL! The debunked agrees with his debunking, even while not
understanding it.
Hec
http://hectorplasmic.com
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: Repost - Why God created us to suffer |
07 Oct 2004 02:59:28 PM |
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Hector Plasmic wrote:
"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:<2hU8d.9$1R2.2@fe51.usenetserver.com>...
The sole reason why God did create the world imperfect is
to give us something worthwhile to do with our lives improving
upon what we find and leaving the world in a better condition, t
than when we came.
Your argument leads us directly to this argument:
1. A being cannot have a worthwhile life without the
ability to choose to perform and the ability to perform
evil.
So far so good. Except that the being must have been
created with a free will, which only humans have.
So who forces a dog to choose left, right, ahead or back at the
crossing of two paths?
God has no free will? God is an automaton? Did you really mean to
say that?
2. God cannot choose to do evil.
To God all thing are possible
Really? Can it both exist and not exist? And you just told us it is
not possible for God to make a free will decision...
3. Therefore, God's life is worthless.
"Worthless" by which standard of worth? Yours?
No, yours. Reread the argument again. :-)
<chortle>... Nice one.
Indeed!!!!!
ROFL! The debunked agrees with his debunking, even while not
understanding it.
Hec
http://hectorplasmic.com
Standard theology states god has free will.
***************
St. Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologica
Jacques Maritain Center: GC 1.88
That there is a Free Will in God
GOD does not necessarily will things outside Himself
Chap.LXXXI
3. Will is of the of the means
Since then God wills Himself as end, and other
things as means, it follows that in respect of
Himself He has will only, but in respect
of other things choice. But choice is always an
act of free will.
4. Man by free will is said to be master of his own
acts. But this mastery belongs most of all to the Prime Agent,
whose act depends on no other.
*****************
But standard dogma claims god cannot do evil, that
evil is not in his nature.
Thus if god cannot do evil, and yet has free will,
so could man be created with free will and yet a good
nature incapable of doing evil.
If man cannot be so created to have a good nature and yet
free will, then god cannot have a good nature incapable of doing
evil and have free will.
So either god has no free will,
Or, by creating man without a god nature incapable of doing
moral evil, god is the creator and sustaining cause of all moral evil.
--
Kerry - two medals a silver and bronze star.
Bush? Well they don't give medals
for going AWOL, missing your medical and
getting grounded or falling off of a bar stool.
Kerry - a hero, Bush - a zero
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Barry OGrady" |
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| Title: Re: Repost - Why God created us to suffer |
08 Oct 2004 10:05:24 PM |
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On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 15:59:28 -0400, wbarwell <wbarwell@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
Hector Plasmic wrote:
"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:<2hU8d.9$1R2.2@fe51.usenetserver.com>...
The sole reason why God did create the world imperfect is
to give us something worthwhile to do with our lives improving
upon what we find and leaving the world in a better condition, t
than when we came.
Your argument leads us directly to this argument:
1. A being cannot have a worthwhile life without the
ability to choose to perform and the ability to perform
evil.
So far so good. Except that the being must have been
created with a free will, which only humans have.
So who forces a dog to choose left, right, ahead or back at the
crossing of two paths?
God has no free will? God is an automaton? Did you really mean to
say that?
2. God cannot choose to do evil.
To God all thing are possible
Many Christians disagree.
Really? Can it both exist and not exist? And you just told us it is
not possible for God to make a free will decision...
3. Therefore, God's life is worthless.
"Worthless" by which standard of worth? Yours?
No, yours. Reread the argument again. :-)
<chortle>... Nice one.
Indeed!!!!!
ROFL! The debunked agrees with his debunking, even while not
understanding it.
Hec
http://hectorplasmic.com
Standard theology states god has free will.
Christianity is based on God not having free will.
If God had free will Christians could not predict what he will do and
they could not be sure that the conditions God applied when the
Bible was written still apply.
God might have changed his mind.
***************
St. Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologica
Jacques Maritain Center: GC 1.88
That there is a Free Will in God
GOD does not necessarily will things outside Himself
Chap.LXXXI
3. Will is of the of the means
Since then God wills Himself as end, and other
things as means, it follows that in respect of
Himself He has will only, but in respect
of other things choice. But choice is always an
act of free will.
4. Man by free will is said to be master of his own
acts. But this mastery belongs most of all to the Prime Agent,
whose act depends on no other.
*****************
But standard dogma claims god cannot do evil, that
evil is not in his nature.
Thus if god cannot do evil, and yet has free will,
so could man be created with free will and yet a good
nature incapable of doing evil.
If man cannot be so created to have a good nature and yet
free will, then god cannot have a good nature incapable of doing
evil and have free will.
So either god has no free will,
Or, by creating man without a god nature incapable of doing
moral evil, god is the creator and sustaining cause of all moral evil.
All things are possible for God except those things that Christians
find inconvenient.
--
-Barry
========
Web page: http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
Atheist, radio scanner, LIPD information.
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| User: "steve" |
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| Title: Re: Repost - Why God created us to suffer |
07 Oct 2004 09:09:24 AM |
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| ROFL! The debunked agrees with his debunking, even while not
| understanding it.
to say i roflmao for an extended period of time upon reading that
statement - having read to posts to which it applies - would be an
understatement of the most dire sort!
<chortle> ;^)
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| User: "Icarus" |
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| Title: Re: Repost - Why God created us to suffer |
06 Oct 2004 01:05:42 PM |
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Pastor Frank wrote:
"Icarus" <icarus_uk@email.com> wrote in message
news:2sg0soF1khv78U1@uni-berlin.de...
Hector Plasmic wrote (amongst other things):
"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> wrote in message
<snip>
The sole reason why God did create the world imperfect is
to give us something worthwhile to do with our lives
improving upon what we find and leaving the world in a
better condition, t than when we came.
Your argument leads us directly to this argument:
1. A being cannot have a worthwhile life without the ability
to choose to perform and the ability to perform evil.
So far so good. Except that the being must have been
created with a free will, which only humans have.
2. God cannot choose to do evil.
To God all thing are possible (Mk 10:27), but since God is
almighty He can choose to do no evil, something we are to
attain to.
What god? Why do you speak of your god as a 'He', when
previously you have said that 'god' is just a human emotion? How
did a human emotion create the world before humans even existed?
3. Therefore, God's life is worthless.
"Worthless" by which standard of worth? Yours? LOL
<chortle>... Nice one.
Indeed!!!!!
Pastor Frank
Jesus in Mk:10:27: And Jesus looking upon them saith, With
men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all
things are possible.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Repost - Why God created us to suffer |
07 Oct 2004 12:44:17 AM |
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"Icarus" <icarus_uk@email.com> wrote in message
news:2siq71F1jq7dkU1@uni-berlin.de...
Pastor Frank wrote:
To God all thing are possible (Mk 10:27), but since God is
almighty He can choose to do no evil, something we are to
attain to.
What god? Why do you speak of your god as a 'He', when
previously you have said that 'god' is just a human emotion? How
did a human emotion create the world before humans even existed?
I did noy say: God is just and emotion". You said that. I said our God
incarnate is Jesus Christ, and though you may deny that also, Jesus was a
man and therefore a "He".
Are you gender confused?
Pastor Frank
"GOD" The Christian meaning of the word according to scripture:
Jesus in Jn:4:24: GOD IS A SPIRIT: and they that worship him must
worship him in spirit and in truth.
Jesus in John 14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and
the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7: If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also:
and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8: Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9: Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast
thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HAS SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER;
and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10: Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that
dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
1Jn:4:8: He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE.
1Jn:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us.
GOD IS LOVE; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Acts:17:28: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain
also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
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| User: "steve" |
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| Title: Re: Repost - Why God created us to suffer |
07 Oct 2004 08:55:40 AM |
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your g is a triad right? perhaps you failed to consider that the other two
maybe of either sex or genderless for that matter. again, you are an idiot.
you fail to see that a gendered god implies a need to procreate which also
implies death. you also fail to see that "need" implies imperfection. "jesus
wept" - shortest passage in the bible. "he/she" applied to g in an atheist's
remark to a theist - shortest path to pissing off one who lacks logical
inferencing prowess.
pastor, from what url did you get your ordination? i might get one just for
fun...takes a week right?
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| User: "steve" |
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| Title: Re: Repost - Why God created us to suffer |
06 Oct 2004 01:26:52 PM |
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| So far so good. Except that the being must have been created with a
free
| will, which only humans have.
animals make the same decisions we do. they simply lack a vocabulary to
define good and bad behavior. they also lack our keen tendencies toward
lazily explaining the unknown. but given enough free time, i'm sure they'd
grow to love that activity as well.
tell me, with something evidenciary, how are humans different than animals.
(hint: the bible won't cut the mustard)
| To God all thing are possible (Mk 10:27), but since God is almighty He
| can choose to do no evil, something we are to attain to.
if he cannot *choose* to do evil then he is less than omnipotent! if he
created all things, then either evil is part of his nature or evil is
outside of himself as a separate entity. were that the case then evil and
good came into existance simultaneously from our perspective since w/o evil
how can we know good. since we can only perceive the depth of goodness or of
evil by the extent the opposite manifests itself, then both *share* the same
rank or power if you will. either way you look at it, god is null least of
all omnipotent.
| "Worthless" by which standard of worth? Yours? LOL
the common venacular moron. the postulate "god exists/does not exist" is
null until a means by which a state of truth or falsehood can be determined.
without verifiable evidence, anything conceived "has no value"...is
worthless. if one cannot perceive a thing, such as "good" alone or "evil"
alone, then that thing is worthless...has no meaninful interaction.
i think your definition of worthless (however extremely it may stray from
websters) would still successfully apply to your statements.
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| User: "steve" |
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| Title: Re: Repost - Why God created us to suffer |
04 Oct 2004 11:08:44 PM |
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| Your argument makes no sense, what Buddhists have is no standard, only
| what Buddha taught. But answer the question already: How can one have a
free
| choice for or against improving something which is already perfect?
how can one have free choice in a predestined universe? also, is god
perfect? isn't he omnipotent? if he is both, then free choice and perfection
can certainly co-exist. you must assume your argument there more than a bit
weak otherwise there is a cascading negative logical consequence to your
belief system. and, if buddhists follow the teachings of buddha then the
teachings are the standard. his argument(s) make sence to me...yours,
however, are wrot with logical conflict (which is hard to acheive when most
are only one sentence long!).
| The sole reason why God did create the world imperfect is to give us
| something worthwhile to do with out lives, improving upon it, and leaving
it
| in better shape than when we came. And no Hec, spending our lives chasing
| the pleasures of the flesh is NOT the answer.
first of all...says who? nowhere i've ever seen in scripture is close to
that load of bs. that's pure frank. secondly, before i was born i perceived
nothing. there was no pain, no joy, no self-realization, etc. what you're
telling me is that it was better for me to have been born, so i could have
something to do. that's in addition to all of the suffering i'd have to
endure...again, just so i'd have something to do? thanks but no thanks! btw,
have you looked at the world in which we live? it ain't getting any better.
you may want to re-think what you've said and come up with a better reason
than that. "but that's cause we choose to make it the way it is and god
doesn't own any of that"...ah, destiny! hard to not take responsibility for
something when everything is of our design...but i digress.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Repost - Why God created us to suffer |
05 Oct 2004 07:49:57 PM |
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|
"steve" <a@b.com> wrote in message
news:10m47ibrkjph2a9@corp.supernews.com...
|
| Your argument makes no sense, what Buddhists have is no standard,
only
| what Buddha taught. But answer the question already: How can one have a
free
| choice for or against improving something which is already perfect?
how can one have free choice in a predestined universe? also, is god
perfect? isn't he omnipotent? if he is both, then free choice and
perfection
can certainly co-exist. you must assume your argument there more than a
bit
weak otherwise there is a cascading negative logical consequence to your
belief system. and, if buddhists follow the teachings of buddha then the
teachings are the standard. his argument(s) make sence to me...yours,
however, are wrot with logical conflict (which is hard to acheive when
most
are only one sentence long!).
You list all kinds of conditions which don't apply. God is perfect and
omnipotent, that is exactly why God is able to create imperfection and
limitation, i.e. maya and give us free choice. Predestination requires time
and time is an illusion.
| The sole reason why God did create the world imperfect is to give us
| something worthwhile to do with out lives, improving upon it, and
leaving
it
| in better shape than when we came. And no Hec, spending our lives
chasing
| the pleasures of the flesh is NOT the answer.
first of all...says who? nowhere i've ever seen in scripture is close to
that load of bs. that's pure frank. secondly, before i was born i
perceived
nothing. there was no pain, no joy, no self-realization, etc. what you're
telling me is that it was better for me to have been born, so i could have
something to do. that's in addition to all of the suffering i'd have to
endure...again, just so i'd have something to do? thanks but no thanks!
btw,
have you looked at the world in which we live? it ain't getting any
better.
Cynicism is of Satan. Are you one those who say: Since the world "ain't
getting any better" I might as well grab what I can for myself and care
nothing about making things worse for everyone else. Are you into
self-fulfilling prophesies?
you may want to re-think what you've said and come up with a better reason
than that.
Tell us what "better reason" you are willing to accept!!
"but that's cause we choose to make it the way it is and god
doesn't own any of that"...ah, destiny! hard to not take responsibility
for something when everything is of our design...but i digress.
You make favourable mention of Buddhism, but they believe in maya. If
maya is true, then you are dreaming yourself and are the author of your own
future. In fact then you are god dreaming himself in a diminished capacity,
much as we dream ourselves in a diminished capacity nearly every night.
Pastor Frank
THE MANDATE OF JESUS
**Jesus in Lk:4:18: The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath
anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the
broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of
sight to the blind.
**Jesus in Mk:2:17: When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are
whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to
call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
**Jesus in Lk:9:56: For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives,
but to save them.
**Jesus Mt:18:11: For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
**Jesus in Jn:12:47: And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge
him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
**Jesus in Mt:11:28-30 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened,
and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am
gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my
yoke is easy and my burden is light."
Pastor Frank
.
|
|
|
| User: "Hector Plasmic" |
|
| Title: Re: Repost - Why God created us to suffer |
06 Oct 2004 11:20:05 AM |
|
|
"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> wrote in message news:<lzI8d.1028$Ii.771@fe51.usenetserver.com>...
God is perfect and omnipotent, that is exactly why
God is able to create imperfection and limitation
Hell, _I_ can create imperfection and limitation, so that's not an
explanation at all. In fact, a perfect being would have to create
perfectly, or it would mar its perfection into imperfection. Hoist
that on your petard and smoke it, Frankie.
Predestination requires time and time is an illusion.
Well, I certainly await your evidence and/or reasoning showing that
time is an illusion. Oops -- that I must _await_ it seems to be
evidence that your claim is full of *****! :-)
Cynicism is of Satan.
And lies are of God, if you are his representative. Tsk, tsk.
you may want to re-think what you've said and come up
with a better reason than that.
Tell us what "better reason" you are willing to accept!!
Typical intellectual laziness on your part, Frankie. It's not up to
us to give you a better argument; you have to do that on your own.
Until you do, there's not much reason to take what you say seriously,
is there?
Hec
http://hectorplasmic.com
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "steve" |
|
| Title: Re: Repost - Why God created us to suffer |
06 Oct 2004 12:15:04 AM |
|
|
| You list all kinds of conditions which don't apply. God is perfect and
| omnipotent, that is exactly why God is able to create imperfection and
| limitation, i.e. maya and give us free choice. Predestination requires
time
| and time is an illusion.
the conditions all apply and are a consequence of the thought expressed. if
god has given free will to mankind and allowed to create his own destiny,
then god can neither be cognizant of that end result (omnipotent) nor is he
in control (attribute of omnipotence) over its shape nor direction. if you
find that offensive, the only solution i see would be removing free will
from the picture thereby preserving the notion that *if* god exists then he
is both omniscient and omnipotent. the *if* points to the most fundemental
argument for the case stated above. we see no evidence that anything more
powerful than any actor within the universe exists nor any contention of
force that directs our lives other than its law. if one cannot perceive a
thing then whether existant or not that thing is meaningless, void, null.
god is null, free will a farse, and predetermination as deterministic as the
spray pattern from a shotgun.
last time i checked, frank, time is considered by all but you to be a
dimension and not illusion. since your new "discovery" could possibly change
all that we know about our physical world, why not provide some proof that
it is in fact just a mere illusion.
|| > first of all...says who? nowhere i've ever seen in scripture is close
to
| > that load of bs. that's pure frank. secondly, before i was born i
| perceived
| > nothing. there was no pain, no joy, no self-realization, etc. what
you're
| > telling me is that it was better for me to have been born, so i could
have
| > something to do. that's in addition to all of the suffering i'd have to
| > endure...again, just so i'd have something to do? thanks but no thanks!
| btw,
| > have you looked at the world in which we live? it ain't getting any
| better.
| >
| Cynicism is of Satan. Are you one those who say: Since the world "ain't
| getting any better" I might as well grab what I can for myself and care
| nothing about making things worse for everyone else. Are you into
| self-fulfilling prophesies?
really? you know first hand? did he tell you or did the big g? was it
audible or a metaphysical revelation? again, the example was meant to point
out logical consequence as a result of believing that g did all this just so
we'd have something to do...and, oh yeah...stay out of danger of the fires
of hell in the process of a "better" means of killing time. finally, you
will never know what kind of "one of those" i am...so don't presume.
| > you may want to re-think what you've said and come up with a better
reason
| > than that.
|
| Tell us what "better reason" you are willing to accept!!
*if* g exists, i would be willing to accept a *reasonable* explaination of
intent. if you don't know what i mean by *reasonable* then just read what
you wrote...then think of its polar opposite. that would be my definition of
*reasonable*.
| You make favourable mention of Buddhism, but they believe in maya. If
| maya is true, then you are dreaming yourself and are the author of your
own
| future. In fact then you are god dreaming himself in a diminished
capacity,
| much as we dream ourselves in a diminished capacity nearly every night.
"favorable" ;^) couldn't care less about the big bellied b. in case you
missed it, i was poking fun of you saying that they have no standard, just
his teachings. that perfectly describes every religion. the teachings are
the standard. and by the way, you may want to pay attention to the arguments
you make b/c you already intended in this post that, because of free will,
we are in fact "the author of [our] your own future." so as i suspected from
the onset, i am communicating with one of "diminished capacity."
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Frank" |
|
| Title: Re: Repost - Why God created us to suffer |
06 Oct 2004 03:56:36 PM |
|
|
"steve" <a@b.com> wrote in message
news:10m6vqn92fi7u04@corp.supernews.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
|
| You list all kinds of conditions which don't apply. God is perfect
and
| omnipotent, that is exactly why God is able to create imperfection and
| limitation, i.e. maya and give us free choice. Predestination requires
| time and time is an illusion.
the conditions all apply and are a consequence of the thought expressed.
if
god has given free will to mankind and allowed to create his own destiny,
then god can neither be cognizant of that end result (omnipotent) nor is
he
in control (attribute of omnipotence) over its shape nor direction.
Apart from the timeless environment which makes it imossible to apply
human sequential logic to anything regarding God, we can compare our Father
which is in heaven somewhat with our parents. They give us free reign to
exercise our free will within certain parameters and once we are grown, they
will not interfere if we decide to destroy ourselves. A parent who warns his
child, that certain actions will result in brain damage or death, knows what
he is talking about and knows what the outcome of your actions will be, yet
when you are grown will not repeat this warning, but let you follow your own
desires. A parent will also know, in advance, that the world will not stop
if you decide to destroy yourself. To NOT be in control of your destiny is a
choice most parents will make, though they could likely force you into
rehabilitation and save your life.
if you
find that offensive, the only solution i see would be removing free will
from the picture thereby preserving the notion that *if* god exists then
he
is both omniscient and omnipotent.
God our Father which is in heaven will not force you, nor exercise His
omnipotence and omniscience on your behalf. For that would be intrusive,
nosey and rude. He will merely mourn your passing, as any parent would.
the *if* points to the most fundemental
argument for the case stated above. we see no evidence that anything more
powerful than any actor within the universe exists nor any contention of
force that directs our lives other than its law. if one cannot perceive a
thing then whether existant or not that thing is meaningless, void, null.
god is null, free will a farse, and predetermination as deterministic as
the
spray pattern from a shotgun.
last time i checked, frank, time is considered by all but you to be a
dimension and not illusion. since your new "discovery" could possibly
change
all that we know about our physical world, why not provide some proof that
it is in fact just a mere illusion.
Was it not you who mentioned Buddhism favourable in comparison to
Christianity? The maya doctrine is the foundation of all Asian Philosophical
systems, maya meaning illusion. I.e. somewhat along the lines that we are
God dreaming himself in a diminished capacity, much like we dream ourselves
in an intellectually diminished capacity nearly every night. I understand
also, that brainwave patterns show, that one can dream a very long story
indeed, in an exceedingly short actual time. Btw there is no "proof" that
would prove to a dreamer, that he is in fact dreaming himself.
Some people think, that Jesus saying: "I and my Father are one" can be
read as: "I and my Father are one and the same", which would mean maya
applying to Christianity also. But those are mere philosophical
speculations, AKA mysticism which have no bearing on the "Glad News" of
Salvation by grace.
|| > first of all...says who? nowhere i've ever seen in scripture is close
to
| > that load of bs. that's pure frank. secondly, before i was born i
| perceived
| > nothing. there was no pain, no joy, no self-realization, etc. what
you're
| > telling me is that it was better for me to have been born, so i could
have
| > something to do. that's in addition to all of the suffering i'd have
to
| > endure...again, just so i'd have something to do? thanks but no
thanks!
| btw,
| > have you looked at the world in which we live? it ain't getting any
| better.
| >
| Cynicism is of Satan. Are you one those who say: Since the world
"ain't
| getting any better" I might as well grab what I can for myself and care
| nothing about making things worse for everyone else. Are you into
| self-fulfilling prophesies?
really? you know first hand? did he tell you or did the big g? was it
audible or a metaphysical revelation? again, the example was meant to
point
out logical consequence as a result of believing that g did all this just
so
we'd have something to do...and, oh yeah...stay out of danger of the fires
of hell in the process of a "better" means of killing time. finally, you
will never know what kind of "one of those" i am...so don't presume.
You are getting a bit incoherent here, and that is why I asked.
Interestingly you do what all atheists do, when posting to religious NGs,
they never explain what they promote, only what they disapprove of. Because
of that, it's perfectly logical for me to assume, that you don't know what
it is you want to promote apart from the cynicism and despair of realizing,
that the world is going to the dogs and "it ain't getting any better".
| > you may want to re-think what you've said and come up with a better
reason
| > than that.
|
| Tell us what "better reason" you are willing to accept!!
*if* g exists, i would be willing to accept a *reasonable* explaination of
intent. if you don't know what i mean by *reasonable* then just read what
you wrote...then think of its polar opposite. that would be my definition
of
*reasonable*.
Just my own thoughts on that, nothing Biblical. I think God acts like an
organism which seeks to stay alive and make existing as interesting as
possible. Why otherwise sort laboriously through such large numbers of
lives, dividing those which increased the quality of life and are to be
kept, from those who diminshed the quality of existence and are to be
discarded.
Do you think you should be kept as being one contributing to the quality
of existence? Or is it the land-fill site for you?
Pastor Frank
SONS OF GOD
Jn:1:12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become
the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rom:8:14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons
of God.
Rom:8:19: For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the
manifestation of the sons of God.
Phil:2:15: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God,
without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among
whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1Jn:3:1: Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us,
that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us
not, because it knew him not.
1Jn:3:2: Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear
what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like
him; for we shall see him as he is.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Bob" |
|
| Title: Re: Repost - Why God created us to suffer |
05 Oct 2004 06:27:12 AM |
|
|
"steve" <a@b.com> wrote in message
news:10m47ibrkjph2a9@corp.supernews.com...
| Your argument makes no sense, what Buddhists have is no standard, only
| what Buddha taught. But answer the question already: How can one have a
free
| choice for or against improving something which is already perfect?
how can one have free choice in a predestined universe? also, is god
perfect? isn't he omnipotent? if he is both, then free choice and
perfection
can certainly co-exist. you must assume your argument there more than a
bit
weak otherwise there is a cascading negative logical consequence to your
belief system. and, if buddhists follow the teachings of buddha then the
teachings are the standard. his argument(s) make sence to me...yours,
however, are wrot with logical conflict (which is hard to acheive when
most
are only one sentence long!).
| The sole reason why God did create the world imperfect is to give us
| something worthwhile to do with out lives, improving upon it, and
leaving
it
| in better shape than when we came. And no Hec, spending our lives
chasing
| the pleasures of the flesh is NOT the answer.
first of all...says who? nowhere i've ever seen in scripture is close to
that load of bs. that's pure frank. secondly, before i was born i
perceived
nothing. there was no pain, no joy, no self-realization, etc. what you're
telling me is that it was better for me to have been born, so i could have
something to do. that's in addition to all of the suffering i'd have to
endure...again, just so i'd have something to do? thanks but no thanks!
btw,
have you looked at the world in which we live? it ain't getting any
better.
you may want to re-think what you've said and come up with a better reason
than that. "but that's cause we choose to make it the way it is and god
doesn't own any of that"...ah, destiny! hard to not take responsibility
for
something when everything is of our design...but i digress.
Actually, free will and omnipotence are mutally exclusive concepts.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Frank" |
|
| Title: Re: Repost - Why God created us to suffer |
06 Oct 2004 03:28:32 AM |
|
|
"Bob" <somebody@SOMEPLACE.COM> wrote in message
news:kyv8d.8360$4C.2098371@twister.nyc.rr.com...
"steve" <a@b.com> wrote in message
news:10m47ibrkjph2a9@corp.supernews.com...
|
| Your argument makes no sense, what Buddhists have is no standard,
only
| what Buddha taught. But answer the question already: How can one have
a
free
| choice for or against improving something which is already perfect?
how can one have free choice in a predestined universe? also, is god
perfect? isn't he omnipotent? if he is both, then free choice and
perfection
can certainly co-exist. you must assume your argument there more than a
bit
weak otherwise there is a cascading negative logical consequence to your
belief system. and, if buddhists follow the teachings of buddha then the
teachings are the standard. his argument(s) make sence to me...yours,
however, are wrot with logical conflict (which is hard to acheive when
most
are only one sentence long!).
| The sole reason why God did create the world imperfect is to give
us
| something worthwhile to do with out lives, improving upon it, and
leaving
it
| in better shape than when we came. And no Hec, spending our lives
| chasing the pleasures of the flesh is NOT the answer.
first of all...says who? nowhere i've ever seen in scripture is close to
that load of bs. that's pure frank. secondly, before i was born i
perceived
nothing. there was no pain, no joy, no self-realization, etc. what
you're
telling me is that it was better for me to have been born, so i could
have
something to do. that's in addition to all of the suffering i'd have to
endure...again, just so i'd have something to do? thanks but no thanks!
btw, have you looked at the world in which we live? it ain't getting any
better.
you may want to re-think what you've said and come up with a better
reason
than that. "but that's cause we choose to make it the way it is and god
doesn't own any of that"...ah, destiny! hard to not take responsibility
for something when everything is of our design...but i digress.
Actually, free will and omnipotence are mutally exclusive concepts.
Our Christian God is sufficiently omnipotent to exercise His free will
whenever He so desires and lay aside His omnipotence, i.e. Christ on the
cross.
Pastor Frank
Jesus in Mk:10:27: And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is
impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
.
|
|
|
| User: "steve" |
|
| Title: Re: Repost - Why God created us to suffer |
06 Oct 2004 01:11:00 PM |
|
|
if i have all power but lay it down (abdicate) what then, shall i use to
regain even a portion of it?
frank, please either think a bit harder before writing...or at least wipe
your mouth when you begin to dribble.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "steve" |
|
| Title: Re: Repost - Why God created us to suffer |
05 Oct 2004 08:37:32 AM |
|
|
| Actually, free will and omnipotence are mutally exclusive concepts.
i don't see how. if one is to be all-powerful then one must indeed be in
full control of his own will. the two then cannot be mutually exclusive.
free will always accompanys discussions of divined destiny. like good and
evil, free will is a man-made construct (pushed by divined destineers) to
ease a believer's delima that they may just be going through the motions. if
free will truly existed, man would be in charge of his own destiny and god
would fail to control any of his designs for the future of his creation. in
that case, logically, he would be less than omnipotent and not fully
omnicient. so, which then is the case?
i would like to hear how you see them as being mutually exclusive but first,
are you going to address your perversion of what the scriptures say and what
you have said in your previous post?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Bob" |
|
| Title: Re: Repost - Why God created us to suffer |
05 Oct 2004 06:35:28 PM |
|
|
Pardon, I mean omniscient
"steve" <a@b.com> wrote in message
news:10m58srkpr47ld7@corp.supernews.com...
| Actually, free will and omnipotence are mutally exclusive concepts.
i don't see how. if one is to be all-powerful then one must indeed be in
full control of his own will. the two then cannot be mutually exclusive.
free will always accompanys discussions of divined destiny. like good and
evil, free will is a man-made construct (pushed by divined destineers) to
ease a believer's delima that they may just be going through the motions.
if
free will truly existed, man would be in charge of his own destiny and god
would fail to control any of his designs for the future of his creation.
in
that case, logically, he would be less than omnipotent and not fully
omnicient. so, which then is the case?
i would like to hear how you see them as being mutually exclusive but
first,
are you going to address your perversion of what the scriptures say and
what
you have said in your previous post?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Frank" |
|
| Title: Re: Repost - Why God created us to suffer |
06 Oct 2004 10:02:55 AM |
|
|
"Bob" <somebody@SOMEPLACE.COM> wrote in message
news:4dG8d.63525$Ot3.37940@twister.nyc.rr.com...
Pardon, I mean omniscient
"steve" <a@b.com> wrote in message
news:10m58srkpr47ld7@corp.supernews.com...
Actually, free will and omnipotence are mutally exclusive concepts.
i don't see how. if one is to be all-powerful then one must indeed be in
full control of his own will. the two then cannot be mutually exclusive.
free will always accompanys discussions of divined destiny. like good
and
evil, free will is a man-made construct (pushed by divined destineers)
to
ease a believer's delima that they may just be going through the
motions.
if
free will truly existed, man would be in charge of his own destiny and
god
would fail to control any of his designs for the future of his creation.
Man is indeed in charge of his own destiny, hence the reason for God's
holy and inerrant words and His effort to convince us to follow Him, instead
of our following own desires and lusts. God will NOT force us nor save us
against our will. Neither can Satan snare us without our invitation,
permission and cooperation.
in
that case, logically, he would be less than omnipotent and not fully
omnicient. so, which then is the case?
Wrong conclusion. God is sufficiently omnipotent to lay aside any or all
of His attributes when He so desires. See below
Pastor Frank
Jesus in Mk:10:27: And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is
impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Barry OGrady" |
|
| Title: Re: Repost - Why God created us to suffer |
08 Oct 2004 10:07:55 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 6 Oct 2004 11:02:55 -0400, "Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> wrote:
"Bob" <somebody@SOMEPLACE.COM> wrote in message
news:4dG8d.63525$Ot3.37940@twister.nyc.rr.com...
Pardon, I mean omniscient
"steve" <a@b.com> wrote in message
news:10m58srkpr47ld7@corp.supernews.com...
Actually, free will and omnipotence are mutally exclusive concepts.
i don't see how. if one is to be all-powerful then one must indeed be in
full control of his own will. the two then cannot be mutually exclusive.
free will always accompanys discussions of divined destiny. like good
and
evil, free will is a man-made construct (pushed by divined destineers)
to
ease a believer's delima that they may just be going through the
motions.
if
free will truly existed, man would be in charge of his own destiny and
god
would fail to control any of his designs for the future of his creation.
Man is indeed in charge of his own destiny, hence the reason for God's
holy and inerrant words and His effort to convince us to follow Him, instead
of our following own desires and lusts.
But, 'our own desires and lusts' are the ones God gave us when he created
us. So God wants us to fight the nature he gave us. Why didn't God just give
us the nature he wants us to have?
God will NOT force us nor save us against our will.
If God did save us against the will he gave us it would be an admission that
he had stuffed up.
Neither can Satan snare us without our invitation, permission and cooperation.
I'm surprised God let that slip through when he created Satan.
in
that case, logically, he would be less than omnipotent and not fully
omnicient. so, which then is the case?
Wrong conclusion. God is sufficiently omnipotent to lay aside any or all
of His attributes when He so desires. See below
Pastor Frank
Jesus in Mk:10:27: And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is
impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
That quote is usually followed by a list of things God can't do, like give us
free will and a good life.
If other animals don't have free will why don't they have a perfect life?
Why did God make us as just another mammal with the same basic nature
and desires rather than making us quite separate?
-Barry
========
Web page: http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
Atheist, radio scanner, LIPD information.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "The Sophist" |
|
| Title: Re: Repost - Why God created us to suffer |
06 Oct 2004 05:52:45 PM |
|
|
Pastor Frank wrote:
Wrong conclusion. God is sufficiently omnipotent to lay aside any or all
of His attributes when He so desires. See below
Pastor Frank
Jesus in Mk:10:27: And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is
impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
So presumably it'd be possible for God to make a world entirely
populated by free beings and yet with no evil whatever. So why'd he
decide to make our world, with its Hitlers and Pol Pots, instead? Seems
not to be a very nice guy, this God of yours.
--
Aaron Boyden
The main division between the so-called Continental and Analytic
traditions has been disputes over whether the task of being unclear
should be carried out in natural language or in a formal system.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: Repost - Why God created us to suffer |
07 Oct 2004 09:36:07 AM |
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"The Sophist" <sophist@brown.edu> wrote in message
news:Vn_8d.28812$cN6.6179@lakeread02...
Pastor Frank wrote:
Wrong conclusion. God is sufficiently omnipotent to lay aside any or
all
of His attributes when He so desires. See below
Jesus in Mk:10:27: And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is
impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
So presumably it'd be possible for God to make a world entirely
populated by free beings and yet with no evil whatever. So why'd he
decide to make our world, with its Hitlers and Pol Pots, instead? Seems
not to be a very nice guy, this God of yours.
Aaron Boyden
Yes, God could have made us all robots, unable to choose to do evil, but
He did not, willing to take a chance on us by giving us free will to do good
as well as evil.
You will be judged by what you did to counter the evils of the world by
doing good.
Pastor Frank
THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST
Jesus in Matthew. 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye
for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: (Exodus 21:23-24)
39: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall
smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40: And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let
him have thy cloke also.
41: And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42: Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee
turn not thou away.
43: Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour,
and hate thine enemy.
44: But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do
good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you,
and persecute you;
45: That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for
he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on
the just and on the unjust.
46: For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even
the publicans the same?
47: And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? Do
not even the publicans so?
48: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is
perfect.
---------------------
His teaching is a humongous step up from Judaism's Exodus 21:23-24
"If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth
for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound,
stripe for stripe."
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| User: "The Last Liberal" |
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| Title: Re: Repost - Why God created us to suffer |
07 Oct 2004 03:55:25 PM |
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On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 10:36:07 -0400, "Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com>
wrote:
Yes, God could have made us all robots, unable to choose to do evil, but
He did not, willing to take a chance on us by giving us free will to do good
as well as evil.
Before you can honestly say what the gods do and do not do, nor what
the gods have done and will not do, it behooves you to produce some
evidence that the gods exist. Surely this is obvious.
--
"Terrorism" isn't the enemy: George W Bush is!
http://lastliberal.org
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