| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
29 Mar 2005 05:04:35 AM |
| Object: |
Re: Some links to info on the Jesus mythos |
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
More links, not posted previously in this
thread:
- - -
The Pagan Christ: Recovering the Lost Light
by Tom Harpur
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0887621457
An utter piece of garbage.
See here:
http://www.tektonics.org/harpur01.html
105. The Jesus Puzzle. Did Christianity Begin with
a Mythical Christ? : Challenging the Existence
of an Historical Jesus, by Earl J. Doherty
At least he can write well,mostly.
Otherwise just arguments from siilence.
- - -
106. The Jesus Mysteries : Was the 'Original Jesus'
a Pagan God? by Timothy Freke, Peter Gandy
Gandy,I think,is a journalist. Freke used to publish PORN!
Ever notice how NONE of the authors of these books are
PROFESSIONAL HISTORIANS. Wonder why?
- - -
107. The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story
Ever Sold, by Acharya S
Mention this at the history department of your local
college. See how hard you get laughed at.
119. The Christ Myth, by Arthur Drews
Historian? NO.
Mathematician.
- -
120. Forgery in Christianity : A Documented
Record of the Foundations of the Christian
Religion, by Joseph Wheless
A lawyer,given to badly misquoting.
Roger Pearse has documented some of
his malfeasance.
129. The Jesus Legend, by G.A. Wells
A professor of German,who now admits he was wrong!
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| User: "Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" |
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| Title: Re: Some links to info on the Jesus mythos |
29 Mar 2005 10:33:11 PM |
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<jkelley@zoomnet.net> wrote ...
"Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" wrote ...
The Pagan Christ: Recovering the Lost Light
by Tom Harpur
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0887621457
An utter piece of garbage.
[...]
While that is, perhaps, a bit harsh -if- you were
describing foundational religious documents,
like the christian bible, certainly one could be
excused for having that opinion about religious
foundational documents, if you were to have
that opinion towards them.
However, perhaps it would be better stated
that religious foundational documents are a
reflection of the minds of ancients, those writ-
ten in ancient times, clueless regarding modern-
day concepts of pro-humanism, naturalism,
natural history, archeology, and the manner in
which those concepts are antithetical to a sub-
stantial amount of the writings in ancient reli-
gious documents.
As for modern-day religious documents, like
the 19th century Book of Mormon, simply fan-
tasies leveraged off of the ancient myths.
Here's Earl Doherty's review of "The Pagan
Christ: Recovering the Lost Light":
http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/BkrvHarpur.htm
105. The Jesus Puzzle. Did Christianity Begin with
a Mythical Christ? : Challenging the Existence
of an Historical Jesus, by Earl J. Doherty
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0968601405
http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/home.htm
At least he can write well,mostly.
Otherwise just arguments from silence.
Actually, there's a lot more than arguments from
silence there, the -4- elephants, for example:
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/four_elephants.htm
- - -
106. The Jesus Mysteries : Was the 'Original Jesus'
a Pagan God? by Timothy Freke, Peter Gandy
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/060960581X
http://www.cnn.com/2000/books/news/09/21/jesus.mysteries/index.html
Gandy,I think,is a journalist. Freke used to publish PORN!
He did? That's interesting, if true. If not true,
it's inaccurate, and I'm sure you'll be more
than open to presenting a retraction, if you
find, upon further research, you're incorrect,
won't you?
If not, if you were correct, I'm sure you'll
present us with convincing material backing
up your claim, something appearing in a
reputable online resource rather than from
a catholic or fundy blog, won't you?
Ever notice how NONE of the authors of these books are
PROFESSIONAL HISTORIANS. Wonder why?
Professional historian? How does one get that
title? What, does one apply to the professional
historians association?
Again, and in any case, you must wonder, if you're
a well-reasoned individual, how historians, by and
large, deal with 'missing material', that which cannot
be evidenced simply because it has been purged,
expunged, obliterated from the historical record
due to the actions of those in power.
One technique, ignoring it. Another technique, trying
to figure out, logically and reasonably, what is the
most likely explanation that would have been within
documents that are missing. Another technique, to
utilize bias in ignoring missing records, something
christian apologists are quite adept at. Usually, said
bias is used in favor of the majority opinion that has
been pressed into service via 1,000 of the darkest
years in human history, the dark ages / middle ages
dominated by christian rule of the western world.
- - -
107. The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story
Ever Sold, by Acharya S
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0932813747
http://www.truthbeknown.com/christcon.htm
http://www.truthbeknown.com/christ3.htm
http://www.truthbeknown.com/christ4.htm
Mention this at the history department of your local
college. See how hard you get laughed at.
Christian colleges? Yep. Secular colleges, with well-
educated professors well-schooled in the mythos of
the Jesus character? An actualized knowledge of the
sources for her material, albeit while admitting that
much of her material is contentious and controversial,
would accede that there is much to be gained by pon-
dering some of the more controversial aspects of
christian criticism based on less-well-known writings,
many from the 19th century.
Support for her theory of conspiracy? Well, as with
almost all conspiracy theories, it's difficult (if not
impossible) to reliably validate some (or much) of
what is claimed, but nevertheless it is of interest to
speculate on the actual nature of the formation of
religions, much of which has been expunged from
historical records.
With christianity, due to the heavy-handed book
burning motif of the Romans from the 4th century
onwards, in their effort to stamp out and extinguish
all materials counter to their chosen theocratized
religion of Roman Catholic christianity, it's difficult
to find historical records. You see, that was the
goal of the Roman Catholic / Roman Empire in
the early days of christianity, stamping out / expung-
ing criticisms of Roman Catholicism, no matter if
said criticism was from Jews, from other versions
of christianity, from pagans, or from other dis-
senters who were viewed as a threat to the the-
ocratized Roman Catholic state.
108. The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You
to Read, by Tim C. Leedom (Editor)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0939040158
- - -
109. Deconstructing Jesus, by Robert M. Price
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1573927589
- - -
110. The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark,
by Dennis R. MacDonald
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0300080123
- - -
111. Jesus : One Hundred Years Before Christ,
by Alvar Ellegard
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0879517204
- - -
112. Why Christianity Must Change or Die :
A Bishop Speaks to Believers in Exile,
by John Shelby Spong, Richard Dominick
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060675365
- - -
113. Liberating the Gospels : Reading the Bible With
Jewish Eyes : Freeing Jesus from 2,000 Years of
Misunderstanding, by John Shelby Spong
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060675578
- - -
114. Resurrection : Myth or Reality? : A Bishop's
Search for the Origins of Christianity,
by John Shelby Spong
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060674296
- - -
115. Born of a Woman : A Bishop Rethinks
the Birth of Jesus, by John Shelby Spong
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060675233
- - -
116. Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism :
A Bishop Rethinks the Meaning of Scripture,
by John Shelby Spong
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060675187
- - -
117. One Jesus, Many Christs : How Jesus
Inspired Not One True Christianity, but
Many : The Truth About Christian Origins,
by Gregory J. Riley
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060667990
- - -
118. The Case Against Christianity,
by Michael Martin
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1566390818
- - -
119. The Christ Myth, by Arthur Drews
Historian? NO.
Mathematician.
A mathematician, geez, the guy must be over-
whelmed with the evidence for christianity? What,
he's not?
Insofar as you're willing to disclaim criticisms from
so-called non-historians, no matter how well-schooled,
disciplined, well-read, well-supported, might I ask,
would you be willing to disclaim acclaim or presump-
tion of verity towards the writers of the christian bible,
most of whom are under the esteemed category of
unknown, most of whom who received what little
education they had from superstitious religious
types, deeply steeped in the mythos of the day
and age in which they lived, in all likelihood?
After all, naturalists among the bible writers, not
likely, well-trained historians among the bible
writers, highly unlikely, as not much was known
about natural history in those days. Most of what
was presented regarding history was simply myth.
Odd then that you'd be so critical of modern day
criticisms by well-educated doubters in myths,
individuals with far more knowledge of natural
history, archeology, science, and other cultures
than the bible writers, simply because they don't,
in your view, qualify as having 'enough' qualifica-
tion to be considered a so-called 'professional
historian'.
Speaking of history and ahistoricity ...
Did Jesus Exist?
Earl Doherty and the Argument to Ahistoricity
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/jesuspuzzle.shtml#Ahistoricity
Excerpts:
...
Arguing for Ahistoricity
We must compare the standard historicist theory
(SHT) with Doherty's ahistoricist or "mythicist" theory
(DMT). I have already refuted the popular misnotion
that "you can't prove a negative" in my essay " Prov-
ing a Negative."
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/theory.html
...
There are two ways to "prove" ahistoricity:
(1) If you can demonstrate that there is both
(a) insufficient evidence to believe x and
(b) sufficient evidence to disbelieve x,
then it is reasonable to disbelieve x.
This is the "Argument from Silence."
(2) If you can demonstrate that all the evidence can
be far better accounted for by a theory (y) other than
historicity (theory x), then it is reasonable to believe
y and, consequently, to disbelieve x.
This is the "Argument to the Best Explanation."
...
- -
120. Forgery in Christianity : A Documented
Record of the Foundations of the Christian
Religion, by Joseph Wheless
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1564592251
A lawyer,given to badly misquoting.
Rather than a christian or historian given to badly
misquoting?
Roger Pearse has documented some of
his malfeasance.
Is Roger guilty of badly misquoting, too?
And you believe Roger Pearse because he's one
disposed to buy into the christian myths? Hmmm,
buying into the christian myths must be something
you're in favor of, not that that has anything to do
with open-minded search for verity, it's just that you
like the christian myth so much that anyone who
tries to prop it up is ... oh I dunno, you tell me, of
the christians trying to prop up christianity, which
ones do you doubt in?
Well, if you're a typical christian, you treat christians
like John Shelby Spong as anything from wrong to
misguided to on their way to hell, although I note
that you skipped over his work (without comment)
in your sparse replies to the book list.
121. Is It God's Word : An Exposition of the
Fables & Mythology of the Bible & the Fallacies
of Theology, by Joseph Wheless
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/156459226X
- - -
122. The Myth of the Resurrection and Other
Essays, by Joseph McCabe
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0879758333
- - -
123. The Forgery of the Old Testament and Other
Essays, by Joseph McCabe
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0879758503
- - -
124. Making of the Messiah : Christianity and
Resentment, by Robert Sheaffer
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0879756918
- - -
125. Gospel Fictions, by Randel Helms
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0879755725
- - -
126. Pagan and Christian Creeds: Their Origin
and Meaning, by Edward Carpenter,
preface by Paul Tice
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1564592111
- - -
127. Jesus Christ, Sun of God : Ancient Cosmology
and Early Christian Symbolism, by David Fideler
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0835606961
- - -
128. Who Wrote the New Testament? The Making
of Christian Myth, by Burton L. Mack
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060655186
129. The Jesus Legend, by G.A. Wells
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812693345
A professor of German,who now admits he was wrong!
Interesting, you criticized christian doubters that
*weren't* proclaimed historians and now you like
a 'professor of German' (not a so-called 'profes-
sional historian'?) because, according to you, he
"admits he was wrong!" ?
While acknowledging professor Wells is more than
open to revising his theories, and admitting to any
particulars he was wrong about, I seriously doubt
your implication that he admitted he was wrong
about his overall doubt towards the so-called chris-
tian savior mythos promoted by christian literalists.
Here are some excerpts regarding a recent work of
his, published January 1, 2004: "Can We Trust the
New Testament?: Thoughts on the Reliability of Early
Christian Testimony"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author=G.%20A.%20Wells/103-8501660-1047868
Excerpts:
...
The gospels included in the New Testament (NT)
are widely agreed to have been written between
A.D. 70 and 100. In these four gospels, it is claimed
that Jesus taught in Galilee in the opening decades
of the first century, worked miracles there, or what
at any rate were taken for miracles, and died in
Jerusalem at the behest of the Roman governor
Pontius Pilate.
And yet, as I have reiterated in "The Jesus Legend"
(1996) and "The Jesus Myth" (1999), none of these
things are claimed, or even mentioned, in the earliest
surviving Christian documents. In other words, none
of these supposed historical events are touched
upon in extant Christian documents which are either
earlier than the gospels or early enough to have been
written independently of them (that is, before those
gospels or the traditions underlying them had be-
come generally known in Christian circles).
This discrepancy is particularly striking when behav-
iour or teaching recorded in the gospels has obvi-
ous relevance to the concerns being pursued by the
earlier Christian authors. The NT scholar Graham
Stanton frankly calls it "baffling" that Paul, writing in
the 50s, fails to "refer more frequently and at greater
length to the actions and teaching of Jesus," partic-
ularly at points where "he might well have clinched
his argument by doing so."
...
Product Description:
Can We Trust the New Testament? Questions the
historical accuracy of widely held views of early
Christianity. In this book radical Bible scholar G. A.
Wells examines Biblical accounts of the lives of the
apostles Peter and Paul and presents evidence that
the events described in the New Testament were
written over time to support the agendas of the
Christian church. He embarks on a close analysis
of the Book of Acts, questioning its authorship and
casting doubt on the events it and the gospels des-
cribe.
...
- - -
130. Buddha and Christ: Nativity Stories and Indian
Traditions, by Zacharias P. Thundy
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/9004097414
- - -
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~~~
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman
Freethinking Realist Exploring
Expressive Liberty, Openness,
Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality
~~~
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