| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
03 Apr 2005 11:19:03 AM |
| Object: |
Re: The marriage of church and state. |
Analyst <post.yours@and.Iwillsendyoumine.org> wrote:
:|Interestingly, there is not Constitutional compulsion to become educated
:|by that same argument. There is substantial argument that mandatory
:|education may be un-Constitutional in the first place, and as a
:|consequence, making people pay for such in the first place is a general
:|violation of civil rights; it doesn't matter what the educational
:|program consists of.
:|
There is nothing unconstitutional about public education, common schools,
etc
They were established even before the Constitution via some state
constitutions prior to 1787 and the general/federal government was brought
into the mix via the Land ordinance of 1785 and the Northwest Ordinance of
1787.
.
|
|
| User: "Analyst" |
|
| Title: Re: The marriage of church and state. |
05 Apr 2005 01:40:44 PM |
|
|
wrote in
news:vq5051d09mt4u9okauodliro50tqi874pu@4ax.com:
Analyst <post.yours@and.Iwillsendyoumine.org> wrote:
:|Interestingly, there is not Constitutional compulsion to become
:|educated by that same argument. There is substantial argument that
:|mandatory education may be un-Constitutional in the first place, and
:|as a consequence, making people pay for such in the first place is a
:|general violation of civil rights; it doesn't matter what the
:|educational program consists of.
:|
There is nothing unconstitutional about public education, common
schools, etc
They were established even before the Constitution via some state
constitutions prior to 1787 and the general/federal government was
brought into the mix via the Land ordinance of 1785 and the Northwest
Ordinance of 1787.
Only the compulsorary element is unconstitutional according to a
previous thesis I've already posted; there is nothing wrong with the
existance of the schools themselves. It's the compulsorary element which
causes so many other conflicts of interest in the educational process.
I'm not familiar with the Land and Northwest Ordinances.
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: The marriage of church and state. |
06 Apr 2005 05:52:15 AM |
|
|
Analyst <post.yours@and.Iwillsendyoumine.org> wrote:
:|buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote in
:|news:vq5051d09mt4u9okauodliro50tqi874pu@4ax.com:
:|
:|> Analyst <post.yours@and.Iwillsendyoumine.org> wrote:
:|>
:|>>:|Interestingly, there is not Constitutional compulsion to become
:|>>:|educated by that same argument. There is substantial argument that
:|>>:|mandatory education may be un-Constitutional in the first place, and
:|>>:|as a consequence, making people pay for such in the first place is a
:|>>:|general violation of civil rights; it doesn't matter what the
:|>>:|educational program consists of.
:|>>:|
:|>
:|> There is nothing unconstitutional about public education, common
:|> schools, etc
:|>
:|> They were established even before the Constitution via some state
:|> constitutions prior to 1787 and the general/federal government was
:|> brought into the mix via the Land ordinance of 1785 and the Northwest
:|> Ordinance of 1787.
:|>
:|>
:|>
:|>
:|
:|Only the compulsorary element is unconstitutional according to a
:|previous thesis I've already posted;
Who wrote it and what are their qualifications?
:|there is nothing wrong with the
:|existance of the schools themselves. It's the compulsorary element which
:|causes so many other conflicts of interest in the educational process.
Compulsory education is a well established principle in American dating
back to
http://www.cloudnet.com/~edrbsass/educationhistorytimeline.html
American Educational History: A Hypertext Timeline
Please consider this timeline to be a work in progress. If you see an error
or have a suggestion for an important event that should be added, contact
me at esass@csbsju.edu.
Index: 1600 - 1699, 1700 - 1799, 1800 - 1899, 1900 - 1999, 2000 -
Present
1607 – The first permanent settlement in North America is established by
the Virginia Company at Jamestown in what is now the state of Virginia.
1620 - The Mayflower arrives at Cape Cod, bringing the "Pilgrims" who
establish the Plymouth Colony. Many of the Pilgrims are Puritans who had
fled religious persecution in England. Their religious views come to
dominate education in the New England colonies.
[snip]
1635 - The first "free school" in Virginia opens. However, education in the
southern colonies is more typically provided at home by parents or tutors.
[snip]
1642 - The Massachusetts Bay School Law is passed. It requires that parents
assure their children know the principles of religion and the capital laws
of the commonwealth.
1647 - The Massachusetts Law of 1647, also known as the Old Deluder Satan
Act, is passed. It decrees that every town of at least 50 families hire a
schoolmaster who would teach the town's children to read and write and that
all towns of at least 100 families should have a Latin grammar school
master who will prepare students to attend Harvard College.
[snip]
1787 - The Northwest Ordinance is enacted by the Confederation Congress. It
provides a plan for western expansion and bans slavery in new states.
Specifically recognizing the importance of education, Act 3 of the document
begins, "Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good
government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education
shall forever be encouraged." Perhaps of more practical importance, it
stipulates that a section of land in every township of each new state be
reserved for the support of education.
[snip]
1821 - First public high school, Boston English High School, opens .
1827- The state of Massachusetts passes a law requiring towns of more than
500 families to have a public high school open to all students.
[snip]
1852 - Massachusetts enacts the first mandatory attendance law. By 1885, 16
states have compulsory-attendance laws, but most of those laws are
sporadically enforced at best. All states have them by 1918.
****************************************************************************
http://www.bama.ua.edu/~mcinn006/The%20purpose%20of%20Education%20web.htm#A1600
Several legislative changes came about in this period, the Massachusetts
Act of 1642, was the first brick on the road to compulsory education in
America. The Law of 1642 required that parents and master see to it that
their children knew the principles of religion and the capital laws of the
commonwealth. The Law of 1647 required that towns of fifty families hire a
schoolmaster who would teach children to read and write. The Law of 1647,
also known as the Old Deluder Satan Act, was born out of this
above-mentioned parental negligence. It was at this point in our nation's
educational history that formal schooling as we know it became more
desirable. In 1683 Pennsylvania enacts a law requiring that all children
be taught to read and write by age 12 and be trained in a useful trade or
skill. (Professor Robert N. Barger, Eastern Illinois University,
http://www.ux1.eiu.edu/~cfrnb/)
**************************************************************************************
:|I'm not familiar with the Land and Northwest Ordinances.
Short General History of The Federal Government and Education
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/educ.htm
***************************************************************************************
THE LAND ORDINANCES
Even before the adoption of the Constitution, the Continental Congress
enacted the Land Ordinances of 1785 and 1787, which provided impetus for
creation of educational systems in all the states joining the Union.
SOURCE: American Public School Law, Third Edition,Kern Alexander. M. David
Alexander. West Publishing Company, (1992) p. 49
****************************************************
The Northwest Ordinance set out the requirements necessary for
territorial areas to become states. Provisions for education, habeas
corpus, due process, and religious freedom were all to be provided for in
the compact, which was required by the central government as a condition
for a territory to become a state.
The legislatures of the new states were thus required, in
accordance with the Ordinance of 1785, to oversee the sixteenth-section
lands, or to account for the funds if sold; the Northwest Ordinance of 1787
required that each state have an education provision in its basic law.
Later, when Ohio became a state in 1802, the problem arose as to
whether states could tax federal property within their boundaries. A
compromise was reached that provided that states would receive "5 percent"
of the sale of lands, if in turn federal property would be exempt from
state taxation. These "5-percent" lands, along with income from salt lands
and swamplands, added to the revenues available or the public schools.
Later, as a result of Jackson's decentralization efforts, the Surplus
Rev!nue Deposit Act of 1836 distributed $28 million n federal funds back to
state governments, nuch of which was devoted to school purposes.
AMERICAN PUBLIC SCHOOL LAW. SIXTH EDITION, KERN ALEXANDER, M. DAVID
ALEXANDER, WEST PUBLISHING, (2004) p. 64-5
*************************************************************
Nathan Dane and the Ordinance of 1787
http://www.primaryresearch.org/PRTHB/Dane/Murray/murray.htm
[excerpt]
.. . . The ordinance says that the revenue generated from the sale of a
portion of each township in the state would go to fund public education.
This was the first instance of federal aid for education in American
history.
*******************************************************************
THE LAND ORDINANCE OF 1785 AND NORTHWEST ORDINANCE OF 1787
http://www.nd.edu/~rbarger/www7/ord17857.html
*******************************************************
GOOD GOVERNMENT: EDUCATION AND THE ORDINANCE OF 1787
The Ordinance's farsighted encouragement of "Schools and the means of
education" eventually led to the establishment of land-grant colleges in
the Northwest Territory, and reenforced the Land Ordinance of 1785 which
had set aside section 16 of each township for the support of schools. Taken
together, these provisions laid the foundation of a national system of
public education and document the founders conviction that education was
essential to the procurement of "good government," the preservation of
civil and religious liberties, the attainment of personal happiness and the
long-term survival of a democratic republic. Consequently, township schools
and land-grant colleges became the cornerstone of American Education.
SOURCE: From a poster which was part of an overall Northwest Ordinance
display in my hometown of East Liverpool, Ohio, the "POINT OF BEGINNING"
for the surveying as laid out in the Land Ordinance of 1785 published by
the Ohio Historical Society and the Ohio Human ties Council.
****************************************************************
Northwest Ordinance
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Northwest_Ordinance
**********************************************************
Land Ordinance of 1785 (2019 bytes)
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Land_Ordinance_of_1785
1: ...]]. The Confederation Congress was not able to tax citizens, so the
immediate goal of the ordinance was to raise money through the sale of land
in the largely unmapped territory west of the...
3: ...tates|United States of America]] until passage of the [[Homestead
Act]] in 1862. The Land Ordinance established the basis for the [[Public
Land Survey System]]. Land was to be systematicall...
5: The ordinance was also significant for establishing a mechanism for
funding public education. The sixte...
http://www.wordiq.com/search/Ordinance.html
*************************************************************
Land Ordinance of 1785
http://www.ohiohistorycentral.org/ohc/history/h_indian/document/lando...
**************************************************************
POINT OF BEGINNING, MY HOME TOWN:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=pOINT+OF+bEGINNING,+eAST+lIVERPOOL,...
http://makeashorterlink.com/?G49015009
***************************************************************
The Northwest and the Ordinances, 1783-1858
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/umhtml/umessay5.html
****************************************************************
Public Land Policy Ordinance of 1785
http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1150.html
****************************************************************
Ordinance of 1787
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0836802.html
**************************************************************
Northwest Ordinance in Indiana - Timeline
http://www.statelib.lib.in.us/www/ihb/resources/tlnword.html
*********************************************************
[This one is incorrect on some aspects the aspct of religion being taight
in schools, however it has valus becaseu it acknowledges that schools were
to be set up.]
The Northwest Ordinance of 1787
Christianity in American Education
"Religion [and] morality [are] necessary for good government
and the happiness of mankind"
http://members.aol.com/EndTheWall/NWOrd.htm
[EXCERPT]
# The Northwest Ordinance of 1787 is considered part of America's "Organic
Law."
# It requires Christianity to be taught by the newly-admitted states in
their schools.
# Language from the Ordinance is found in state constitutions for 100 years
***********************************************************
State's commitment to education dates to 1785 Land Ordinance
By SANDRA SVOBODA BLADE STAFF WRITER
Ohio's educational history began before its statehood.
http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20030302/SRBICE...
****************************************************************
EDUCATION, ROOTED IN REAL ESTATE
(Little red schoolhouses were painted red, like barns, because of cheap
paint. The red pigment came from abundant clay.) by Larry Lick Sr.
http://rhol.org/rental/education_costs.htm
[EXCERPT]
At our nation's birth, only the rich could send their children to
school. However, Tom Jefferson and others, envisioned and worked toward a
public school system that would use income from the sale and rental of
public land as a funding source, which could endow education in perpetuity.
The "Ordinance of 1785", which was adopted even before the US
Constitution, provided the first step toward publicly funded education in
America. It decreed that the land belonging to the United States should be
surveyed in advance of sale, into townships six miles square, each
containing 36 "sections." A uniform system of numbering the sections was
adopted. The townships were surveyed from an east-west line called a "base
line", (Michigan's Eight Mile Road in Detroit) and a north-south line
called a "prime meridian". (Michigan's Meridian Road)
The land was sold at public auction by sections, (640 acres) and
priced originally at $1.00 per acre. A land law passed in 1800 raised the
established minimum to $2.00 an acre but made it possible to buy on the
installment plan. Twenty years later the government began discounting for
cash to $1.25 an acre. That amount was the price paid to the feds for most
of the land in Michigan.
The 1785 ordinance also provided that section sixteen (the center
section) of each township was reserved for the support of schools. When the
education sections were sold, or rented, the proceeds went to the townships
to endow education. "The Northwest Ordinance" adopted, July 13, 1787, by
the Continental Congress, "Determined that the 60,000 inhabitants of the
Northwest Territory, north of the Ohio River, west of New York, could get
statehood." It guaranteed freedom of religion, support for schools and no
slavery. The Ordinance clearly stated: "Schools and the means of education
shall forever be encouraged. "
Michigan entered the union in 1837 and was the first state to use
the land sale proceeds to establish a "State Education Fund", the income
from which was designated as a permanent, state managed, endowment for
schools. The section sixteen grant amounted to over a million acres in
Michigan, which was offered for sale at $8.00 per acre. The average price
finally realized however, was $4.58 per acre.
*****************************************************************
Nathan Dane and the Ordinance of 1787
http://www.primaryresearch.org/PRTHB/Dane/Murray/murray.htm
[excerpt]
Some attractions to those states that had feudal laws, the Northwest
Ordinance prohibited the feudal law of primogeniture, and provided that the
property of a dying parent estate should be divided equally among their
children, or next of kin.[4] It states that no person demeaning himself in
a peaceable and orderly manner shall ever be molested on account of his
mode of worship or religious sentiments. It declared that religion,
morality, and knowledge being necessary to good government, and the
happiness of mankind, schools and means of education should always be
encouraged. The ordinance says that the revenue generated from the sale of
a portion of each township in the state would go to fund public education.
This was the first instance of federal aid for education in American
history.
**********************************************************
Northwest Ordinance
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Northwest%20Ordinance
*****************************************************************
Northwest Ordinance of 1787
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/archive/index.php/t-40312
*********************************************
It provided for free education.
http://historicaltextarchive.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=654
It [Northwest Ordinance] provided for free education.
**************************************************************
DIVISION OF THE SCHOOL INTO GRADES
http://www.nd.edu/~rbarger/www7/grading.html
[EXCERPT]
In the early days of this country, education was usually left for the
elite. This was accomplished by tutoring, and small one room schools. After
the Revolutionary War, Congress enacted a couple of bills to encourage
education for all children. The Land Ordinance of 1785 and Northwest
Ordinance of 1787 (especially act 3) set aside land for the building and
operation of schools, and provided that education be necessary to good
citizenship.
*************************************************************
Confederation to Constitution Timeline
http://www.pinzler.com/ushistory/timeline2.html
[EXCERPT]
1776 Declaration of Independence.
1777 Articles of Confederation endorsed by the Continental Congress and
submitted to the colonies for ratification.
1781 Articles of Confederation officially "in force" after ratification
by the colonies
1783 Treaty of Paris is signed by Great Britain and the United States,
ending the Revolutionary War. Senate ratifies in 1784.
1785 Land Ordinance of 1785 passed by Congress provides for
rectangular survey dividing northwestern territories into townships, which
are in turn divided into lots of 640 acres each, with one lot set aside
for public education.
1786 Ordinance of Religious Freedom adopted by Virginia legislature
written by Thomas Jefferson, this statute would later become the model for
the first amendment to the Constitution.
1786-7 Daniel Shays leads a rebellion of 1,200 men in an attack against
federal arsenal in Springfield, Massachusetts an important incident in
influencing the creation of a new Constitution.
1787 Constitutional convention assembles in Philadelphia.
1787 Northwest Ordinance enacted by Congress provides for the eventual
incorporation of three to five new states in the Northwest territories,
with the establishment of a bicameral assembly, freedom of religion, the
right to trial by jury, public education, and a ban on slavery.
**************************************************************
The Ordinance of 1785.
http://www.agh-attorneys.com/4_ordinance_of_1785.htm
[EXCERPT]
There shall be reserved for the United States out of every township, the
four lots, being numbered 8, 11, 26, 29, and out of every fractional part
of a township, so many lots of the same numbers as shall be found thereon,
for future sale. There shall be reserved the lot N 16, of every township,
for the maintenance of public schools, within the said township; also one
third part of all gold, silver, lead and copper mines, to be sold, or
otherwise disposed of as Congress shall hereafter direct.
**************************************************************
AND FOR FURTHER INFORMATION:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=land+ordinance+of+1...
http://makeashorterlink.com/?F60115009
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
Between Church and State, Religion and Public Education in a Multicultural
America James W. Fraser
Pillars of the Republic Common Schools and American Society, 1780-1860
Carl F. Kaestle
**************************************************************
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=buckeye+northwest+ordinance+educati...
http://makeashorterlink.com/?E1E551FF8
*********************************************************************
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=buckeye+northwest+ordinance+educati...
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z4F526FF8
########################################################
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/misc.education/msg/5fcafd50e7ea8b46
CHAPTER THREE. THE ROLE OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
http://64.78.63.75/samples/05EDU0404AlexanderAmerPublicSchoolLaw6ch3.pdf
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N16433179
American Public School Law, Sixth Edition, Kern Alexander, University of
Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, M. David Alexander, Virginia Tech University
*******************************************************************
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=qulll0pbm265h...
http://makeashorterlink.com/?W35321E69
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1407440902d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=U...
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q57312E69
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1759621590d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=U...
http://makeashorterlink.com/?E18326E69
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1759621590d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=U...
http://makeashorterlink.com/?U29342E69
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1759621590d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=U...
http://makeashorterlink.com/?E2A322E69
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1759621590d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=U...
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Y2B324E69
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=qulll0pbm265h...
http://makeashorterlink.com/?W35321E69
.
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|
|
| User: "Analyst" |
|
| Title: Re: The marriage of church and state. |
06 Apr 2005 09:54:05 AM |
|
|
wrote in
news:nqf751lqh1p5bmg3jl00aog2vciuimvetq@4ax.com:
Analyst <post.yours@and.Iwillsendyoumine.org> wrote:
:| wrote in
:|news:vq5051d09mt4u9okauodliro50tqi874pu@4ax.com:
:|
:|> Analyst <post.yours@and.Iwillsendyoumine.org> wrote:
:|>
:|>>:|Interestingly, there is not Constitutional compulsion to become
:|>>:|educated by that same argument. There is substantial argument
:|>>:|that mandatory education may be un-Constitutional in the first
:|>>:|place, and as a consequence, making people pay for such in the
:|>>:|first place is a general violation of civil rights; it doesn't
:|>>:|matter what the educational program consists of.
:|>>:|
:|>
:|> There is nothing unconstitutional about public education, common
:|> schools, etc
:|>
:|> They were established even before the Constitution via some state
:|> constitutions prior to 1787 and the general/federal government was
:|> brought into the mix via the Land ordinance of 1785 and the
:|> Northwest Ordinance of 1787.
:|>
:|>
:|>
:|>
:|
:|Only the compulsorary element is unconstitutional according to a
:|previous thesis I've already posted;
Who wrote it and what are their qualifications?
Me! :P It's at the beginning of the thread about California and gay
marriage. It's a draft thesis, but still fairly complete. Of course I'm
going to support my OWN conclusions. And I'm a former Federal officer
with some training in the reading and interpreting of Constitutional
law; I'm kind of sworn to do that :P Anyways, the general conclusion of
the thesis was that regulatory law as applied to U.S. Citizens was
unconstitutional and unenforceable. And, yes, I know that is an extreme
conclusion, but its consistent with early USSC rulings and the language
of the Constitution. The legal principals involved are pretty ancient,
probably going back as far as the original Code of Hamarubi(sp?). The
core of the argument that U.S. Citizens are equally sovereign within
U.S. law, and all equal within it, and possess sovereign immunity to
laws and actions of their agents (the several governments of the
U.S.)...Parliment can't dictate to the Queen (King) :)
:|there is nothing wrong with the
:|existance of the schools themselves. It's the compulsorary element
:|which causes so many other conflicts of interest in the educational
:|process.
Compulsory education is a well established principle in American
dating back to
It's a tradition that has not been directly subject to legal challenge
under Constitutional I suspect. :) I'm not against public education, I'm
simply against any compulsorary laws involved since I've been led to
believe that such violates the rights of those so compelled.
Mommy and Daddy can always force Junior to go to school, but the state
doesn't need to be involved in such a private matter of the family.
*snip*
Thanks for the posting of those statutes, histories, and related links.
They show a pattern of government involvement in the creation of
schools, but nothing about the history of any laws and ruling concerning
compulsorary attendance. It's the compulsorary attendence issue that is
the basis of the USSC's previous findings about school prayer, reciting
the pledge, etc.
.
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