Re: The Myth of the Separation of Church and State



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "Lone Ranger"
Date: 03 Aug 2005 05:47:24 AM
Object: Re: The Myth of the Separation of Church and State
On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 09:11:30 -0400, "CB" <CB@prayforme.com> wrote:

The Myth of
the Separation of Church and State

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anytime religion is mentioned within the confines of government today
people cry, "Separation of Church and State". Many people think this
statement appears in the first amendment of the U.S. Constitution and
therefore must be strictly enforced. However, the words: "separation",
"church", and "state" do not even appear in the first amendment. The first
amendment reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." The statement about
a wall of separation between church and state was made in a letter on
January 1, 1802, by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association of
Connecticut. The congregation heard a widespread rumor that the
Congregationalists, another denomination, were to become the national
religion. This was very alarming to people who knew about religious
persecution in England by the state established church. Jefferson made it
clear in his letter to the Danbury Congregation that the separation was to
be that government would not establish a national religion or dictate to men
how to worship God. Jefferson's letter from which the phrase "separation of
church and state" was taken affirmed first amendment rights. Jefferson
wrote:

I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American
people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting
an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,"
thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. (1)
The reason Jefferson choose the expression "separation of church and
state" was because he was addressing a Baptist congregation; a denomination
of which he was not a member. Jefferson wanted to remove all fears that the
state would make dictates to the church. He was establishing common ground
with the Baptists by borrowing the words of Roger Williams, one of the
Baptist's own prominent preachers. Williams had said:
When they have opened a gap in the hedge or wall of separation between the
garden of the Church and the wilderness of the world, God hath ever broke
down the wall itself, removed the candlestick, and made his garden a
wilderness, as at this day. And that there fore if He will eer please to
restore His garden and paradise again, it must of necessity be walled in
peculiarly unto Himself from the world...(2)

The "wall" was understood as one-directional; its purpose was to protect
the church from the state. The world was not to corrupt the church, yet the
church was free to teach the people Biblical values.

The American people knew what would happen if the State established the
Church like in England. Even though it was not recent history to them, they
knew that England went so far as forbidding worship in private homes and
sponsoring all church activities and keeping people under strict dictates.
They were forced to go to the state established church and do things that
were contrary to their conscience. No other churches were allowed, and
mandatory attendance of the established church was compelled under the
Conventicle Act of 1665. Failure to comply would result in imprisonment and
torture. The people did not want freedom from religion, but freedom of
religion. The only real reason to separate the church from the state would
be to instill a new morality and establish a new system of beliefs. Our
founding fathers were God-fearing men who understood that for a country to
stand it must have a solid foundation; the Bible was the source of this
foundation. They believed that God's ways were much higher than Man's ways
and held firmly that the Bible was the absolute standard of truth and used
the Bible as a source to form our government.

There is no such thing as a pluralistic society. There will always be one
dominant view, otherwise it will be in transition from one belief system to
another. Therefore, to say Biblical principles should not be allowed in
government and school is to either be ignorant of the historic intent of the
founding fathers, or blatantly bigoted against Christianity.

Each form of government has a guiding principle: monarchy in which the
guiding principle is honor; aristocracy in which the guiding principle is
moderation; republican democracy in which the guiding principle is virtue;
despotism in which the guiding principle is fear. Without people of the
United States upholding good moral conduct, society soon degenerates into a
corrupt system where people misuse the authority of government to obtain
what they want at the expense of others. The U.S. Constitution is the form
of our government, but the power is in the virtue of the people. The virtue
desired of the people is shown in the Bible. This is why Biblical morality
was taught in public schools until the early 1960's. Government officials
were required to declare their belief in God even to be allowed to hold a
public office until a case in the U.S. Supreme Court called Torcaso v.
Watkins (Oct. 1960). God was seen as the author of natural law and
morality. If one did not believe in God one could not operate from a proper
moral base. And by not having a foundation from which to work, one would
destroy the community. The two primary places where morality is taught are
the family and the church. The church was allowed to influence the
government in righteousness an d justice so that virtue would be upheld.
Not allowing the church to influence the state is detrimental to the country
and destroys our foundation of righteousness and justice. It is absolutely
necessary for the church to influence the state in virtue because without
virtue our government will crumble -- the representatives will look after
their own good instead of the country's.

Government was never meant to be our master as in a ruthless monarchy or
dictatorship. Instead, it was to be our servant. The founding fathers
believed that the people have full power to govern themselves and that
people chose to give up some of their rights for the general good and the
protection of rights. Each person should be self-governed and this is why
virtue is so important. Government was meant to serve the people by
protecting their liberty and rights, not serve by an enormous amount of
social programs. The authors of the Constitution wanted the government to
have as little power as possible so that if authority was misused it would
not cause as much damage. Yet they wanted government to have enough
authority to protect the rights of the people. The worldview at the time of
the founding of our government was a view held by the Bible: that Man's
heart is corrupt and if the opportunity to advance oneself at the expense of
another arose, more often than not, we would choose to do so. They firmly
believed this and that's why an enormous effort to set up checks and
balances took place. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. They wanted to
make certain that no man could take away rights given by God. They also did
not set up the government as a true democracy, because they believed, as
mentioned earlier, Man tends towards wickedness. Just because the majority
wants something does not mean that it should be granted, because the
majority could easily err. Government was not to be run by whatever the
majority wanted but instead by principle, specifically the principles of the
Bible.

Our U.S. Constitution was founded on Biblical principles and it was the
intention of the authors for this to be a Christian nation. The
Constitution had 55 people work upon it, of which 52 were evangelical
Christians.(3) We can go back in history and look at what the founding
fathers wrote to know where they were getting their ideas. This is exactly
what two professors did. Donald Lutz and Charles Hyneman reviewed an
estimated 15,000 items with explicit political content printed between 1760
and 1805 and from these items they identified 3,154 references to other
sources. The source they most often quoted was the Bible, accounting for
34% of all citations. Sixty percent of all quotes came from men who used
the Bible to form their conclusions. That means that 94% of all quotes by
the founding fathers were based on the Bible. The founding fathers took
ideas from the Bible and incorporated them into our government. If it was
their intention to separate the state and church they would never have taken
principles from the Bible and put them into our government. An example of
an idea taken from the Bible and then incorporated into our government is
found in Isaiah 33:22 which says, "For the Lord is our judge, the Lord is
our lawgiver, the Lord is our king..." The founding fathers took this
scripture and made three major branches in our government: judicial,
legislative, and executive. As mentioned earlier, the founding fathers
strongly believed that Man was by nature corrupt and therefore it was
necessary to separate the powers of the government. For instance, the
President has the power to execute laws but not make them, and Congress has
the power to make laws but not to judge the people. The simple principle of
checks and balances came from the Bible to protect people from tyranny. The
President of the United States is free to influence Congress, although he
can not exercise authority over it because they are separated. Since this
is true, why should the church not be allowed to influence the state?
People have read too much into the phrase "separation of church and state",
which is to be a separation of civil authority from ecclesiastical
authority, not moral values. Congress has passed laws that it is illegal to
murder and steal, which is the legislation of morality. These standards of
morality are found in the Bible. Should we remove them from law because the
church should be separated from the state?

Our founding fathers who formed the government also formed the educational
system of the day. John Witherspoon did not attend the Constitutional
Convention although he was President of New Jersey College in 1768 (known as
Princeton since 1896) and a signer of the Declaration of Independence. His
influence on the Constitution was far ranging in that he taught nine of
fifty-five original delegates. He fought firmly for religious freedom and
said, "God grant that in America true religion and civil liberty may be
inseparable and that unjust attempts to destroy the one may in the issue
tend to the support and establishment of both."(4)

In October 1961 the Supreme Court of the United States removed prayer from
schools in a case called Engel v. Vitale. The case said that because the
U.S. Constitution prohibits any law respecting an establishment of religion
officials of public schools may not compose public prayer even if the prayer
is denominationally neutral, and that pupils may choose to remain silent or
be excused while the prayer is being recited. For 185 years prayer was
allowed in public and the Constitutional Convention itself was opened with
prayer. If the founding fathers didn't want prayer in government why did
they pray publicly in official meetings? It is sometimes said that it is
permissible to pray in school as long as it is silent. Although, "In Omaha,
Nebraska, 10-year old James Gierke was prohibited from reading his Bible
silently during free time... the boy was forbidden by his teacher to open
his Bible at school and was told doing so was against the law."(4) The U.S.
Supreme Court with no precedent in any court history said prayer will be
removed from school. Yet the Supreme Court in January, 1844 in a case named
Vidal v. Girard's Executors, a school was to be built in which no
ecclesiastic, missionary, or minister of any sect whatsoever was to be
allowed to even step on the property of the school. They argued over
whether a layman could teach or not, but they agreed that, "...there is an
obligation to teach what the Bible alone can teach, viz. a pure system of
morality." This has been the precedent throughout 185 years. Although this
case is from 1844, it illustrates the point. The prayer in question was not
even lengthy or denominationally geared. It was this: "Almighty God, we
acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our
parents, our teachers and our Country." What price have we paid by removing
this simple acknowledgment of God's protecting hand in our lives? Birth
rates for unwed girls from 15-19; sexually transmitted diseases among 10-14
year olds; pre-marital sex increased; violent crime; adolescent homicide
have all gone up considerably from 1961 to the 1990's -- even after taking
into account population growth. The Bible, before 1961, was used
extensively in curriculum. After the Bible was removed, scholastic aptitude
test scores dropped considerably.

There is no such thing as a pluralistic society; there will always be one
dominant view. Someone's morality is going to be taught -- but whose?
Secular Humanism is a religion that teaches that through Man's ability we
will reach universal peace and unity and make heaven on earth. They promote
a way of life that systematically excludes God and all religion in the
traditional sense. That Man is the highest point to which nature has
evolved, and he can rely on only himself and that the universe was not
created, but instead is self-existing. They believe that Man has the
potential to be good in and of himself. All of this of course is in direct
conflict with not only the teachings of the Bible but even the lessons of
history. In June 1961 in a case called Torcaso v. Watkins, the U.S. Supreme
Court stated, "Among religions in this country which do not teach what would
generally be considered a belief in the existence of God are Buddhism,
Taoism, Ethical Culture, Secular Humanism and others." The Supreme Court
declared Secular Humanism to be a religion. The American Humanist
Association certifies counselors who enjoy the same legal status as ordained
ministers. Since the Supreme Court has said that Secular Humanism is a
religion, why is it being allowed to be taught in schools? The removal of
public prayer of those who wish to participate is, in effect, establishing
the religion of Humanism over Christianity. This is exactly what our
founding fathers tried to stop from happening with the first amendment.

1. Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Writings, Merrill D. Peterson, ed. (NY:
Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), p. 510, January 1,
1802.

2. John Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution (MI: Baker Book House,
1987), p. 243.

3. M.E. Bradford, A Worthy Company: Brief Lives of the Framers of the
United States Constitution (Marlborough, N.H.: Plymouth Rock Foundation,
1982), p. 4-5.

4. John Witherspoon, "Sermon on the Dominion of Providence over the
Passions of Men" May 17, 1776; quoted and Cited by Collins, President
Witherspoon, I:197-98.

http://www.noapathy.org/tracts/mythofseparation.html

That's an opinion, not facts. Here's another view:
http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/cs/blcsm_sep_danbury.htm?rd=1
Myth:
Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists is not important.
Response:
Although the idea of a 'wall of separation' originated with Roger
Williams and not Thomas Jefferson, it is Jefferson's phrasing which
has been most used by judges, lawyers and politicians when it comes to
interpreting the First Amendment. This is unsurprising because of
Jefferson's role in the development of our nation and our political
system.
The phrase itself stems from a letter which Jefferson wrote to the
Danbury Baptist Church in Connecticut. Jefferson was president at the
time and the Danbury Baptist Association had written to him on October
7, 1801, expressing their concern about their religious freedoms. At
the time, they were being persecuted because they did not belong to
the Congregationalist establishment in Connecticut. Jefferson
responded to reassure them that he also believed in religious liberty
and said, in part:
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely
between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his
faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government
reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign
reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that
their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of
religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a
wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this
expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights
of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of
those sentiments which tend to restore man to all of his natural
rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social
duties."
Jefferson realized that a full separation of church and state did
*not* exist yet, but he hoped that society would make *progress*
towards that goal. Was this just a political ploy, however? It
certainly can't be considered an off-hand comment, because Jefferson
had it reviewed by Levi Lincoln, his attorney general, before he sent
it. Jefferson is recorded as having told Lincoln that he considered
this letter to be a means of "sowing useful truths and principles
among the people, which might germinate and become rooted among their
political tenets."
This was, by the way, not the only time he used this phrase. It
appears again in a letter he wrote to Virginia Baptists in 1808:
"Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of
every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual.
State churches that use government power to support themselves and
force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil
rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy
unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion.
Erecting the 'wall of separation between church and state,' therefore,
is absolutely essential in a free society."
Some have argued that his letter to the Danbury Baptists had no
connection to the First Amendment at all, yet that is clearly false
because Jefferson precedes his 'wall of separation' phrase with an
obvious quote of the First Amendment. Others have tried to argue that
it was written to appease opponents who had labeled him an "atheist"
and that the letter was not meant to have any larger political
meaning.
But this would not be consistent with Jefferson's past political
history. An excellent example of why would be his tireless efforts to
eliminate the compulsory funding of established churches in his native
Virginia. The final 1786 Act for Establishing Religious Freedom read
in part that:
"...no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious
worship, place or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced,
restrained, molested, or burdened in his body or goods, nor shall
otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions of belief..."
This is exactly what the Danbury Baptists wanted for themselves - an
end to repression on account of their religious beliefs. It is also
what is accomplished when religious beliefs are not promoted or
supported by the government. If anything, his letter could be viewed
as a *mild* expression of his views, because an FBI analysis of
portions scratched out from the original draft show that Jefferson had
originally written about a 'wall of *eternal* separation' [emphasis
added].
Finally, it has also been argued that Jefferson's opinion about
separating church and state have no relevance because he wasn't around
when the Constitution was written. This ignores the fact that
Jefferson was in constant contact with Madison, who is largely
responsible for the development of the Constitution and the Bill of
Rights, and that the two of them had long worked together to create
greater religious liberty in Virginia.
It also ignores the fact that Madison himself referred more than once
to the concept of a wall of separation. In a letter from 1819, he
wrote that "the number, the industry and the morality of the
priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly
increased by the total separation of the church and state." In an even
earlier and undated essay (probably early 1800s), Madison wrote,
"Strongly guarded...is the separation between religion and government
in the Constitution of the United States."
Jefferson believed in the principle of separation of church and state
so much that he created political problems for himself. Unlike
Presidents Washington and Adams, and unlike nearly all following
presidents, Jefferson refused to issue proclamations calling for days
of prayer and thanksgiving. It is not, as some charged, because he was
an atheist or because he wanted others to abandon religion.
Instead, it was for the simple reason that he was president of the
American people, not their pastor, priest or minister. He realized
that he had absolutely no authority to lead other citizens in
religious services or expressions of religious faith and worship. Why
is it, then, that other presidents have assumed that authority over
the rest of us?
It is little wonder then that successive Supreme Court decisions
through the past two centuries keep referring to Thomas Jefferson's
writings as instructive in how to interpret all facets of the
Constitution, not merely with regards to First Amendment issues. But
those issues do receive particular attention, considering Jefferson's
principle interests. In the 1879 decision Reynolds v. U.S., for
example, the court observed that Jefferson's writings "may be accepted
as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the [First]
Amendment."
No, Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists was not just a simple
courtesy, and it is not unimportant when it comes to understanding the
nature of the First Amendment.
--
Hi-Yo, Silver! Away!
--
The Curse of Tecumseh
http://www.snopes.com/history/american/curse.htm
.

User: "Lone Ranger"

Title: Re: The Myth of the Separation of Church and State 03 Aug 2005 01:53:22 PM
On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 12:47:24 +0200, Lone Ranger
<snowball2002@bigfoot.com.spamalamadingdong> wrote:

"CB" wrote:

The Myth of the Separation of Church and State
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The statement about
a wall of separation between church and state was made in a letter on
January 1, 1802, by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association of
Connecticut.
....
Jefferson made it
clear in his letter to the Danbury Congregation that the separation was to
be that government would not establish a national religion or dictate to men
how to worship God. Jefferson's letter from which the phrase "separation of
church and state" was taken affirmed first amendment rights.

http://www.noapathy.org/tracts/mythofseparation.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------




That's an opinion, not facts. Here's another view:

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/cs/blcsm_sep_danbury.htm?rd=1


Myth:
Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists is not important.

Response:
Although the idea of a 'wall of separation' originated with Roger
Williams and not Thomas Jefferson, it is Jefferson's phrasing which
has been most used by judges, lawyers and politicians when it comes
to interpreting the First Amendment. This is unsurprising because of
Jefferson's role in the development of our nation and our political
system.
....
Jefferson realized that a full separation of church and state did
*not* exist yet, but he hoped that society would make *progress*
towards that goal. Was this just a political ploy, however? It
certainly can't be considered an off-hand comment, because Jefferson
had it reviewed by Levi Lincoln, his attorney general, before he sent
it. Jefferson is recorded as having told Lincoln that he considered
this letter to be a means of "sowing useful truths and principles
among the people, which might germinate and become rooted
among their political tenets."
....
Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists was not just a simple
courtesy, and it is not unimportant when it comes to understanding the
nature of the First Amendment.

James Hutson is chief of the Manuscript Division at The Library of
Congress in Washington D.C. Here's what he wrote in the LC Information
Bulletin in June 1998:
http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danbury.html
'A Wall of Separation'
FBI Helps Restore Jefferson's Obliterated Draft
The edited draft of the letter reveals that, far from being dashed off
as a "short note of courtesy," as some have called it, Jefferson
labored over its composition. For reasons unknown, the address of the
Danbury Baptists, dated Oct. 7, 1801, did not reach Jefferson until
Dec. 30, 1801. Jefferson drafted his response forthwith and submitted
it to the two New England Republican politicians in his Cabinet,
Postmaster General Gideon Granger of Connecticut and Attorney General
Levi Lincoln of Massachusetts. Granger responded to Jefferson on Dec.
31.
The next day, New Year's Day, was a busy one for the president, who
received and entertained various groups of well-wishers, but so eager
was he to complete his answer to the Danbury Baptists that, amid the
hubbub, he sent his draft to Lincoln with a cover note explaining his
reasons for writing it. Lincoln responded immediately; just as
quickly, Jefferson edited the draft to conform to Lincoln's
suggestions, signed the letter and released it, all on New Year's Day,
1802.
That Jefferson consulted two New England politicians about his
messages indicated that he regarded his reply to the Danbury Baptists
as a political letter, not as a dispassionate theoretical
pronouncement on the relations between government and religion. His
letter, he told Lincoln in his New Year's Day note, was meant to
gratify public opinion in Republican strongholds like Virginia, "being
seasoned to the Southern taste only."
Expressing his views in a reply to a public address also indicated
that Jefferson saw himself operating in a political mode, for by 1802
Americans had come to consider replies to addresses, first exploited
as political pep talks by John Adams in 1798, as the prime vehicles
for the dissemination of partisan views.
In his New Year's note to Lincoln, Jefferson revealed that he hoped to
accomplish two things by replying to the Danbury Baptists. One was to
issue a "condemnation of the alliance between church and state." This
he accomplished in the first, printed, part of the draft. Jefferson's
strictures on church-state entanglement were little more than rewarmed
phrases and ideas from his 'Statute Establishing Religious Freedom'
(1786) and from other, similar statements. To needle his political
opponents, Jefferson paraphrased a passage, that "the legitimate
powers of government extend to ... acts only" and not to opinions,
from the 'Notes on the State of Virginia', which the Federalists had
shamelessly distorted in the election of 1800 in an effort to
stigmatize him as an atheist. So politicized had church-state issues
become by 1802 that Jefferson told Lincoln that he considered the
articulation of his views on the subject, in messages like the Danbury
Baptist letter, as ways to fix his supporters' "political tenets."
Airing the Republican position on church-state relations was not,
however, Jefferson's principal reason for writing the Danbury Baptist
letter. He was looking, he told Lincoln, for an opportunity for
"saying why I do not proclaim fastings & thanksgivings, as my
predecessors did" and latched onto the Danbury address as the best way
to broadcast his views on the subject. Although using the Danbury
address was "awkward" - it did not mention fasts and thanksgivings -
Jefferson pressed it into service to counter what he saw as an
emerging Federalist plan to exploit the thanksgiving day issue to
smear him, once again, as an infidel.
During the presidential campaign of 1800, Jefferson had suffered in
silence the relentless and deeply offensive Federalist charges that he
was an atheist. Now he decided to strike back, using the most
serviceable weapon at hand, the address of the Danbury Baptists.
Jefferson's counterattack is contained in the circled section of his
draft and in the inked-out lines. He declared that he had "refrained
from prescribing even those occasional performances of devotion,"
i.e., thanksgivings and fasts, because they were "religious
exercises." This was conventional Republican doctrine that could be
found in any number of party newspapers. On March 27, 1799, for
example, an "old Ecclesiastic" declared in the Philadelphia Aurora
that "Humiliation, Fasting and Prayer are religious acts belonging to
the kingdom of Christ" over which the civil magistrate, in the
American system, had no authority.
Jefferson took the gloves off when he asserted that the proclamations
of thanksgivings and fasts were "practiced indeed by the Executive of
another nation as the legal head of its church," i.e., by George III,
King of England. By identifying the proclamation of thanksgivings and
fasts as "British," Jefferson damned them, for in the Republican
lexicon British was a dirty word, a synonym for "Anglomane,"
"Monocrat," "Tory," terms with which the Republicans had demonized the
Federalists for a decade for their alleged plans to reverse the
Revolution by reimposing a British-style monarchy on the United
States. One of the most obnoxious features of the Federalists'
American monarchy, as the Republicans depicted their putative project,
was a church established by law, and Jefferson doubtless expected
those who read his message to understand that, by supporting "British"
fasts and thanksgivings, the Federalists were scheming, as always, to
open a door to the introduction of an ecclesiastical tyranny.
In indicting the Federalists for their "Tory" taste for thanksgivings
and fasts, Jefferson was playing rough. Thanksgivings and fasts had
regularly been celebrated in parts of the country since the first
settlements: to sully them with Anglophobic mudslinging, generated by
the partisan warfare of his own time, as Jefferson did, was a low
blow. But who was being more unfair: Jefferson or his Federalist
inquisitors, who continued to calumniate him as an atheist?
The unedited draft of the Danbury Baptist letter makes it clear why
Jefferson drafted it: He wanted his political partisans to know that
he opposed proclaiming fasts and thanksgivings, not because he was
irreligious, but because he refused to continue a British practice
that was an offense to republicanism. To emphasize his resolve in this
matter, Jefferson inserted two phrases with a clenched-teeth, defiant
ring: "wall of eternal separation between church and state" and "the
duties of my station, which are merely temporal." These last words -
"merely temporal" - revealed Jefferson's preoccupation with British
practice. Temporal, a strong word meaning secular, was a British
appellation for the lay members of the House of Lords, the Lords
Temporal, as opposed to the ecclesiastical members, the Lords
Spiritual. "Eternal separation" and "merely temporal" - here was
language as plain as Jefferson could make it to assure the Republican
faithful that their "religious rights shall never be infringed by any
act of mine."
Jefferson knew and seemed to savor the fact that his letter, as
originally drafted, would give "great offense" to the New England
Federalists. Reviewing the draft on Dec. 31, Postmaster General
Granger, the object of unremitting political harassment in
Connecticut, cheered Jefferson on, apparently welcoming the "temporary
spasms" that he predicted the letter would produce "among the
Established Religionists" in his home state. When Levi Lincoln, a
cooler head, saw the letter the next day, he immediately perceived
that, as written, it could hurt Jefferson politically among the
growing number of Republicans in New England. People there, Lincoln
warned Jefferson, "have always been in the habit of observing fasts
and thanksgivings in performance of proclamations from their
respective Executives." To disparage this custom with an "implied
censure" by representing it as a tainted, Tory ceremony could be
politically disastrous, however well the slur might play south of the
Hudson River.
Jefferson heeded Lincoln's advice, with the result that he deleted the
entire section about thanksgivings and fasts in the Danbury draft,
noting in the left margin that the "paragraph was omitted on the
suggestion that it might give uneasiness to some of our republican
friends in the eastern states where the proclamation of thanksgivings
etc. by their Executives is an antient habit & is respected." Removed
in the process of revision was the designation of the president's
duties as "merely temporal"; "eternal" was dropped as a modifier of
"wall." Jefferson apparently made these changes because he thought the
original phrases would sound too antireligious to pious New England
ears.
In gutting his draft was Jefferson playing the hypocrite, sacrificing
his principles to political expediency, as his Federalist opponents
never tired of charging? By no means, for the Danbury Baptist letter
was never conceived by Jefferson to be a statement of fundamental
principles; it was meant to be a political manifesto, nothing more.
Analyzed with the help of the latest technology, the Danbury Baptist
letter has yielded significant new information. Using it to fix the
intent of constitutional documents is limited, however, by well
established rules of statutory construction: the meaning of a document
cannot be determined by what a drafter deleted or by what he did
concurrently with the drafting of a document. But it will be of
considerable interest in assessing the credibility of the Danbury
Baptist letter as a tool of constitutional interpretation to know, as
we now do, that it was written as a partisan counterpunch, aimed by
Jefferson below the belt at enemies who were tormenting him more than
a decade after the First Amendment was composed.
--
Hi-Yo, Silver! Away!
--
The Curse of Tecumseh
http://www.snopes.com/history/american/curse.htm
.
User: "fred"

Title: Re: The Myth of the Separation of Church and State 05 Aug 2005 08:03:49 PM
Lone Ranger wrote:

On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 12:47:24 +0200, Lone Ranger
<snowball2002@bigfoot.com.spamalamadingdong> wrote:

"CB" wrote:

The Myth of the Separation of Church and State
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The statement about
a wall of separation between church and state was made in a letter on
January 1, 1802, by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association of
Connecticut.
....
Jefferson made it
clear in his letter to the Danbury Congregation that the separation was to
be that government would not establish a national religion or dictate to men
how to worship God. Jefferson's letter from which the phrase "separation of
church and state" was taken affirmed first amendment rights.

http://www.noapathy.org/tracts/mythofseparation.html

<snipped for brevity>
cannot be determined by what a drafter deleted or by what he did
concurrently with the drafting of a document. But it will be of
considerable interest in assessing the credibility of the Danbury
Baptist letter as a tool of constitutional interpretation to know, as
we now do, that it was written as a partisan counterpunch, aimed by
Jefferson below the belt at enemies who were tormenting him more than
a decade after the First Amendment was composed.

The question concerning Jefferson's "separation between church and
state" words is what did Jefferson mean by "state". Astonishingly, the
context of these words indicate that Jefferson was referring to the
federal government which would appropriately reflect the 1st
Amendment's prohibitions on Congress:
"Believing... that religion is a matter which lies solely between man
and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his
worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only,
and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of
the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should
'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting
the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between
Church and State." --Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists, 1802. ME
16:281
Basic reading skills tell us that the state that Jefferson referred to
in the context of his words is the legislature of the whole American
people; the United States Congress. So Jefferson was referring to the
1st Amendment's prohibitions on Congress. However...
The 10th Amendment shows that powers prohibited only to the federal
government but not to the states are reserved for the states. So it is
reasonably argued that since the 1st Amendment explicity prohibits only
the federal government from having the power to address religious
issues, the 10th Amendment reserved this power for the states. This
essay explains how the 1st and 10th Amendments delegated the power to
address religion to the states, not to the federal government:
http://www.renewamerica.us/readings/keyes_essay.htm
So given the actual context of Jefferson's church/state separation
words and the ramification of the 1st and 10th Amendments concerning
the government's power to address religion, it is especially important
to note that Jefferson had also indicated that the states were given
the care of our religious freedoms:
"Our citizens have wisely formed themselves into one nation as to
others and several States as among themselves. To the united nation
belong our external and mutual relations; to each State, severally, the
care of our persons, our property, our reputation and religious
freedom." --Thomas Jefferson: To Rhode Island Assembly, 1801. ME 10:262



--
Hi-Yo, Silver! Away!
--

The Curse of Tecumseh
http://www.snopes.com/history/american/curse.htm

.
User: ""

Title: Re: The Myth of the Separation of Church and State 06 Aug 2005 12:02:11 PM
"fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:

:|The question concerning Jefferson's "separation between church and
:|state" words is what did Jefferson mean by "state". Astonishingly, the
:|context of these words indicate that Jefferson was referring to the
:|federal government which would appropriately reflect the 1st
:|Amendment's prohibitions on Congress:
:|
:|"Believing... that religion is a matter which lies solely between man
:|and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his
:|worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only,
:|and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of
:|the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should
:|'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting
:|the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between
:|Church and State." --Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists, 1802. ME
:|16:281
:|
:|Basic reading skills tell us that the state that Jefferson referred to
:|in the context of his words is the legislature of the whole American
:|people; the United States Congress. So Jefferson was referring to the
:|1st Amendment's prohibitions on Congress. However...
:|
:|The 10th Amendment shows that powers prohibited only to the federal
:|government but not to the states are reserved for the states. So it is
:|reasonably argued that since the 1st Amendment explicity prohibits only
:|the federal government from having the power to address religious
:|issues, the 10th Amendment reserved this power for the states. This
:|essay explains how the 1st and 10th Amendments delegated the power to
:|address religion to the states, not to the federal government:
:|
:|http://www.renewamerica.us/readings/keyes_essay.htm
:|
:|So given the actual context of Jefferson's church/state separation
:|words and the ramification of the 1st and 10th Amendments concerning
:|the government's power to address religion, it is especially important
:|to note that Jefferson had also indicated that the states were given
:|the care of our religious freedoms:
:|
:|"Our citizens have wisely formed themselves into one nation as to
:|others and several States as among themselves. To the united nation
:|belong our external and mutual relations; to each State, severally, the
:|care of our persons, our property, our reputation and religious
:|freedom." --Thomas Jefferson: To Rhode Island Assembly, 1801. ME 10:262

Jefferson didn't separate church and state.
Madison was far more responsible for that than Jefferson was
Here, try this on for size:
Amend. To improve. To change for the better by
removing defects or faults. To change, correct,
revise. See Amendment.
Amendment. To change or modify for the better.
To alter by modification, deletion, or addition.
SOURCE: Black's Law Dictionary, Abridged Sixth Edition Centennial Edition
(1891-1991) West Publishing (1991) p 52
*******************************************************************************
I said it was modified, not revoked. The 1st reads, "Congress shall
make no law ...". The 14th reads "No State shall make ... any law ..."
The 14th modifies the 1st to effectively read, "Congress and the
States shall make no law ..."
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:55:12 -0500
From: Josh Rosenbluth
*******************************************************************************
Fourteenth Amendment, Selective Incorporation
http://candst.tripod.com/14thamend.htm
********************************************************************************
To Understand the Tenth Amendment,
buckeye Jun 15 2001, 9:11 am
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.society.conservatism/msg/a50863c2e692ac27?hl=en&
181. buckeye-ELO Jul 13 2003, 2:16 pm
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.society.liberalism/msg/bf5b2bdbcdcc9fb0?hl=en&
182. buckeye-ELO Jul 14 2003, 7:00 am
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.society.liberalism/msg/8945e835be67a0e3?hl=en&
183. buckeye-ELO Jul 14 2003, 10:54 am
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.society.liberalism/msg/1f55d63333941522?hl=en&
184. buckeye-ELO Jul 15 2003, 10:56 am
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.society.liberalism/msg/d0fd56e9f4f41e8e?hl=en&
185. buckeye-ELO Jul 16 2003, 6:38 am
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.society.liberalism/msg/c19e50824a486b44?hl=en&
186. buckeye-ELO Jul 14 2003, 11:04 am
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.society.liberalism/msg/7451c2da7cff27cb?hl=en&
*****************************************************************************************************
I suggest that you distinguish between the rights, and the potential
violator of a right. Thus "freedom of speech" is a right. "Congress
shall make no law" refers to a possible violation of that right. The
problem is to identify the "right" in "no law respecting an
Establishment of religion" - the law would be an infringement of the
right. The right is that there be "no government respecting an
establishment of religion". The right has nothing to do with
Congress, and it is the right, not the 1st amendment, that the states
cannot infringe.
lojbab
***********************************************

Marshall made it clear way back in McCullogh vs Maryland about implied
powers:
http://www.constitution.org/ussc/017-316_.htm

There is nothing in the Constitution of the United States similar to
the Articles of Confederation, which exclude incidental or implied
powers.

If the end be legitimate, and within the scope of the Constitution,
all the means which are appropriate, which are plainly adapted to
that end, and which are not prohibited, may constitutionally be
employed to carry it into effect.


"Nathan A. Barclay" wrote

Further, the idea that anything that is not prohibited must be permitted is
in direct contradiction of the Tenth Amendment, and would render the Tenth
Amendment meaningless.

"Bob LeChevalier" wrote
The 10th IS virtually meaningless, other than as a restatement in
plain terms of basic constitutional philosophy.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment10/01.html
********************************************************************************
The concept of enumerated powers is a fallacious description of the
constitution, which provides powers in addition to those specifically
enumerated in one section of the constitution, in some cases rather
vaguely. For example, the 14th amendment provides that Congress shall
have the power to enforce said amendment. There are no restrictions
on how Congress may enforce that amendment EXCEPT that it may not
violate the stated and implied rights. So in that particular arena,
amendment has eliminated enumeration of powers. There are several
other statements of Congressional power that similar override the
enumerated power doctrine, some of which are in the unamended
constitution. Thus it cannot be said that the Founders consistently
adopted that doctrine as fundamental to the constitution.
The constitution similar enumerates specific rights in the Bill of
Rights, and then adds a clause saying that there are unenumerated
rights that have not been specified, in amendment 9. Again, there is
no complete and consistent and specific constitutional principle.
And that is reality, thereby trumping all ideologies that attempt to
state otherwise.
lojbab
*******************************************************************
Church state separation was embodied in the unamended Constitution.
Misunderstanding begins with not understanding that.
***************************************************************************************
The following was posted in a reply to someone one else but it helps to sum
this up here as well
Study Guide: Separation of Church and State - Indepth
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd0.htm
[excerpt]
The Beginning
Question:Separation of church and state, the principle, where can it be
found, or can it be found in the Constitution?
Answer: Directly, the unamended constitution, Article VI, Section III
" but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to
any office or public trust under the United States."
Then, indirectly the entire document (unamended constitution) as a whole.
(you will find "tons" of evidence of this in the above URLs as well as
below:
************************************************************************************
o Congressional Debates: Religious Amendments, 1789
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/1stdebat.htm
o James Madison And National Religion
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/madnational.htm
* Establishment and Free Exercise Clauses only Reinforced Separation of
Church and State.
o No Power to Congress Over Religion. The Separation Clause,
Article IV Paragraph III
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/art4piii.htm
o No Power to Congress over Religion: The "Elastic Clause" and
the 1st Amendment
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/nopower.htm
* Representative Thomas Tucker on Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/basic2a.htm
**************************************************************************
So the original principle of church state separation was embodied in the
unamended constitution.
That then was amended (see definitions for amendment above)
It was amended to this and for the reasons given:
Joint House/senate Language:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
(establishment, free exercise, back to broad)
Accepted.
What can be said with any degree of certainty?
We do know for sure that it was to prevent the later use of the
"necessary and proper" wording from being used as a doorway to make laws
regarding religion. We know that because Madison mentions that.
[ To close a real or imagined potential loophole-- it didn't create church
state separaiton it only reinforced it ]
We do know that it was to prevent a sects, denominations, religions
from combining and establishing religions, forcing others to go along with
the program. We know that again because Madison mentions it.
We know the obvious, that is it was meant to prevent the government
from establishing religion, a religion, a sect, a denomination as the
"official" religion of the nation.
We also know that Congress was prevented from making an law RESPECTING
an establishment of religion. We know that because those words were
eventually chosen to be used.
We know that several non preferential proposals were made and all lost
out to the more broad, less defined word establishment, but even that word
did have meaning that applied in this country.
"Of the eleven states that ratified the 1st Amendment, nine (counting
Maryland) adhered to the viewpoint that support of religion and churches
should be voluntary, that any government financial assistance to religion
constituted an establishment of religion."
Source of Information: The First Freedoms, Church and State in America to
the Passage of the First Amendment, by Thomas Curry, page 220.
*******************************************************************************************
Thus one has to read with understanding of the principle of separation that
was embodied in the unamended constitution and include that understanding
when the try to interpret the religious clauses of the 1st Amendment,
especially the "disestablishment" Clause.
This sums it up nicely:
Some Thoughts on Religion and Law, Written by Susan Batte, Esq.
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/bthot-lr.htm
[excerpt]
1. The Constitution did not provide any mechanism for the establishment
of religion or for the support of religion.
2. Religious tests were the primary mechanism for perpetuating an
established church within the political structure.
3. The Constitution specifically prohibits religious tests or oaths for
office.
THEREFORE, the Constitution created the concept of Separation of Church and
State by providing nothing in the constitution that supports the idea that
Government as Government is allowed to support any religion for any reason
and by specifically prohibiting the primary political mechanism for
supporting religion.
The 1st Amendment may only be interpreted, as being consistent with the
Constitution and the views expressed in the Constitution concerning
religion because:
1. The 1st Amendment was drafted after the Constitution was ratified and
was not designated as repealing any provision in the Constitution.
2. The 1st Amendment does not provide any mechanism for establishing
religion.
3. The 1st Amendment does provide the mechanism to allow an individual
as an individual and not as government to exercise the religion of his or
her choice.
THEREFORE, the 1st Amendment cannot be interpreted to mean that some
governmental entities may support religion in some ways (i.e., vouchers,
welfare programs, etc.).
Once the 1st Amendment prohibited Congress from establishing religion by
prohibiting it from making any law respecting an establishment of religion
- Congress was thereby precluded from passing any kind of appropriation
bill to fund any religious enterprise.
In order for the above to be true, the interpretation of "establishment"
would have to be broad, and in fact the broad interpretation of
"establishment" is supported. First, the O.E.D. (Oxford English Dictionary)
sets out a 1561 definition of establishment as "a means of establishing;
something that strengthens, supports or corroborates. Into the 1700s -
1800s, "establishment" could be defined as "the establishing by law (a
church, religion, form of worship.) As an example, the O.E.D. sets out the
following: 1886 Earl Selborne De Ch. Eng. I. iv. 77 All such relations of
the Church to the State as those which are summed up in the term
'Establishment'.
Second, a broad interpretation of"establishment" is consistent with the
indefinite article that proceeds it. "An"'establishment of religion' refers
to all or any religious establishment --- not to one or some
establishments. In the absence of definiteness, the inclusion of "of one
Christian sect over another" after "Congress shall make no law respecting
an establishment" would be necessary if, as Mr. Barton argues, the 1st
Amendment was all about stamping out competing rivalries between Christian
sects.
In addition, the operative word in the Establishment Clause is RESPECTING.
Respecting an establishment of religion. Any religious institution, be it a
20 member country church or a huge multimillion member international
religion, is an establishment of religion. The government is forbidden from
making any laws, positive or negative that would pertain to an
establishment of religion.
The narrow definition of establishment is that the 1st Amendment meant only
to prevent a "State Church" from being officially sanctioned by the
Government. (In this way, some people have tried to argue that supporting
religious schools doesn't establish anything.) However, such a narrow
reading of "Establishment" would need specific language added to the
Amendment to support it since a plain language reading of the Constitution
clearly shows no bias for (or against) Christianity as opposed to any other
religion or even irreligion. And neither does the 1st Amendment.
I would be remiss if I did not point out that the 10th Amendment is not
implicated in the matter of funding religious schools. The 14th amendment
applies the establishment clause against states
****************************************************************************************
UNAMENDED CONSTITUTION
No religious tests, no religious oaths, could affirm, didn't have to swear,
breaking the traditional unions between church and state thus separating
church and state.
DISESTABLISHMENT
All of the above was amended (see definition for amend/amendment) to make
it very clear to reinforce the above by adding "Congress (now or future)
shall make no law (using the "elastic clause" respecting an establishment
of religion,. . . "
Thus we have:
No religious tests to hold office, no religious oaths, can affirm instead
of swear; Congress (now or future) shall make no law (using the "elastic
clause" respecting an establishment of religion,. . .
(Don't forget Madison had proposed one article that would limit the general
government and one that would limit the states. Both passed the House but
the one limiting the states was defeated in the Senate. So consider that
as well as you dwell on this)
*******************************************************************************
Fourteenth Amendment, Selective Incorporation
http://candst.tripod.com/14thamend.htm
[excerpt]
Ironically the First Fourteenth Amendment
On June 8, 1789 James Madison delivered his long awaited list of proposed
amendments to the House of Representatives. After several debates scattered
throughout the summer the following is a partial list of the amendments
that was passed by the House of Representative and sent on to the Senate.
Note especially Article the Fourteenth. That article, passed by the
necessary number of votes called for selective incorporation against the
state some of the other Articles. This particular article was defeated in
the Senate after secret debate and a secret vote. It must be remember at
this particular point in time in American History, the House of
Representative represented "the people." It's members were elected directly
by the people. The Senate, on the other hand, represented the states. It's
members were selected by the state legislatures.
It is ironic that this particular Article was numbered fourteen and that it
called for selective incorporation of other amendments in the "Bill of
Rights package" against the states. It is interesting that it was passed by
"the people's" representatives, but defeated by the state's
representatives. It is very ironic that another Article also numbered
fourteen was passed some 79 or so years later and that it would, in time be
used to selectively incorporate other Articles of the "Bill of Rights
package" against the states.
August 17, 1789-- First Federal Congress (Amendments)
The committee then proceeded to the fifth proposition:
Article I, Section 10 between the first and second paragraph, insert 'No
state shall infringe the equal rights of conscience, nor the freedom of
speech or of the press, nor of the right of trial by jury in criminal
cases.'
Mr. TUCKER this is offered, I presume, as an amendment to the constitution
of the United States, but it goes only to the alteration of constitutions
of particular states. It will be much better, I apprehend, to leave the
state governments to themselves, and not to interfere with them more than
we already do; and that is thought by many to be rather too much. I
therefore move, Sir, to strike out these words.
Mr. MADISON conceives this to be the most valuable amendment in the whole
list. If there were any reason to restrain the government of the United
States from infringing upon these essential rights, it was equally
necessary that they should be secured against the state governments. He
thought that if they provided against one, it was as necessary to provide
against the other, and it was satisfied that it would be equally grateful
to the people.
Mr. LIVERMORE had no great objection to the sentiment, but he thought it
not well expressed. He wished to make it an affirmative proposition; 'the
equal rights of conscience, the freedom of speech or of the press, and the
right of trial by jury in criminal cases, shall not be infringed by any
state.'
This transposition being agreed to, and MR. TUCKER'S motion being rejected,
the clause was adopted. (In the final wording of the amendments that was
sent to the Senate the transposition had not taken place. No reason for
that mistake is recorded.)
Source of Information: The Debates and Proceedings in the Congress of the
United States (Annals of Congress), Joseph Gales. Gales and Seaton,
Washington, 1834, August 17, 1789, Vol I pp 749-756.
***************************************************************************************
Now at a later date there was an additional amendment, that being the 14th
Amendment.
When applied to the "Disestablishment" Clause it alters the amendment to
say:
I said it was modified, not revoked. The 1st reads, "Congress shall
make no law ...". The 14th reads "No State shall make ... any law ..."
The 14th modifies the 1st to effectively read, "Congress and the
States shall make no law ..."
SOURCE: My thanks to Josh Rosenbluth for the above easy to understand
explanation;
***********************************************************************************
Not about the only other thing that might help you, that is provided you
really want to try and understand all this is the following:
Your "question" was
"Maybe you can show me a US statute that explicitly prohibits the States
from making law respecting the establishment of religion. That
is, can you show me how Congress has implemented the 14th by
explicitly :|prohibiting the States from making the kinds of laws
the 1st prohibits or Congress? "
To clear up your confusion and misunderstanding I offer the following:
No statute is required. We have the Constitution which is the ultimate
"statute."
We also have the fact that all branches of government "make law."
See the following if you really want to explore it
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3746425476d&dq=&hl=en &lr=&selm...
http://makeashorterlink.com/?J2B5512F9
or the following more direct:
Judge made law, all branches of govt make law
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3818571407d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&selm...
http://makeashorterlink.com/?J4C5212F9
and finally
The following is your answer. It covers the question, historically, legally
from several directions.
You will, of course, disagree and reject the following, but that is to be
expected.
**********************************************************************************************
Establishment Clause
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3111921277d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&selm...
http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2D5122F9
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members]
For people in Hampton Roads you are also invited to join
NORFOLK/VA. B. SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE MEETUP GROUP
http://churchandstate.meetup.com/47/
Virginia Chapter Americans United for Separation of Church and State
http://au-va.org/
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
"Dedicated to combatting 'history by sound bite'."
Now including a re-publication of Tom Peters
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE HOME PAGE
and
Audio links to Supreme Court oral arguments and
Speech by civil rights/constitutional lawyer and others.
This site is a member of the following web rings:
Freethought Ring--&--Freethought, Religion & Beliefs Ring
The First Amendment Ring--&--The Church-State Ring
American History WebRing--&--The History Ring
Let Freedom Ring--&--Religious Freedom Ring
Law Issues Ring--&--Legal Research Ring
****************************************************************
.

User: ""

Title: Re: The Myth of the Separation of Church and State 06 Aug 2005 10:13:04 AM
On 5 Aug 2005 18:03:49 -0700, "fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:

The question concerning Jefferson's "separation between church and
state" words is what did Jefferson mean by "state".

The question of what various Founders "meant" is relevant to any
discussion only as historical background
After the ratification and adoption of the Constitution, writings,
speeches, sayings, thoughts, etc of "founders" isn't binding on
anything.
Moreover, the most telling beliefs attributed to the "founders" is
their uncertainty that the "experiment" in government would actually
work.
So the hollywood elevation of near god-like status we now assign to
"founders" who lived in 18th century, rural agrarian, pre-industrial
revolution/technology society is rather silly.
The unparalleled act they did ideate was to further the concept that
"rights" to not come from man. In that one concept alone they negated
the basis for civilized government like "divine right of kings" etc.

-------------------------------------------------
"The Afghan Mujahadeens are the moral equivalent
of the Founding Fathers of America."
Ronald "drooler" Reagan

.
User: "MichaelC"

Title: Re: The Myth of the Separation of Church and State 06 Aug 2005 10:32:28 AM
<Adenoid-Hinkel@LoonyRighwing.com> wrote in message
news:6ak9f1lasvisr8kpao8qllva9obn4cj2r0@4ax.com...

On 5 Aug 2005 18:03:49 -0700, "fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:



The question concerning Jefferson's "separation between church and
state" words is what did Jefferson mean by "state".


The question of what various Founders "meant" is relevant to any
discussion only as historical background

This opinion stated as fact. Many believe that the Founders, due to the
convergence of unique factors during which the US was incubated, succeeded
in creating a near-perfect outline for how to run a government which, while
providing for the key essentials of societal living, maximized personal
liberty within that context, and we mess with it at our peril.


After the ratification and adoption of the Constitution, writings,
speeches, sayings, thoughts, etc of "founders" isn't binding on
anything.

True, although wise people always look to experts for guidance when making
difficult and strategic decisions, whether they have to or not. For
instance, when the gang of 14 negotiated the deal which avoided the breakage
of the filibuster over judicial appointments, Sen. Byrd broke out the
Federalist Papers for guidance.


Moreover, the most telling beliefs attributed to the "founders" is
their uncertainty that the "experiment" in government would actually
work.

Not surprising. The best of men are humble, and they knew they were breaking
new ground.


So the hollywood elevation of near god-like status we now assign to
"founders" who lived in 18th century, rural agrarian, pre-industrial
revolution/technology society is rather silly.

So you say. I think the idea that they weren't enlightened is rather
narcissistic and egotistical.
Mike
.
User: ""

Title: Re: The Myth of the Separation of Church and State 06 Aug 2005 01:55:14 PM
On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 15:32:28 GMT, "MichaelC"
<mikecraney@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

The question of what various Founders "meant" is relevant to any
discussion only as historical background


This opinion stated as fact. Many believe that the Founders, due to the
convergence of unique factors during which the US was incubated, succeeded
in creating a near-perfect outline for how to run a government which, while
providing for the key essentials of societal living, maximized personal
liberty within that context, and we mess with it at our peril.

Which is nonsense
Even IF the founders "thought" they had created a "near-perfect"
government, they had no way of knowing what future societies would
have do deal with.
It's also utter nonsense to take a position that "messing with it"
perils us.
No such "messing with" has ever altered the basic premise for
instigating the constituion, the relationship of government to people,
and where "rights" come from

After the ratification and adoption of the Constitution, writings,
speeches, sayings, thoughts, etc of "founders" isn't binding on
anything.


True, although wise people always look to experts for guidance when making
difficult and strategic decisions, whether they have to or not. For
instance, when the gang of 14 negotiated the deal which avoided the breakage
of the filibuster over judicial appointments, Sen. Byrd broke out the
Federalist Papers for guidance.

But ONLY for historical reference
Conservatives insist that the "Federalist papers" and/or other
writings are legitimate for making law.

Moreover, the most telling beliefs attributed to the "founders" is
their uncertainty that the "experiment" in government would actually
work.


Not surprising. The best of men are humble, and they knew they were breaking
new ground.

Which is why we don't elevate the founders to god-like status.

So the hollywood elevation of near god-like status we now assign to
"founders" who lived in 18th century, rural agrarian, pre-industrial
revolution/technology society is rather silly.


So you say. I think the idea that they weren't enlightened is rather
narcissistic and egotistical.

You don't think that the unique notion that "rights" come from a
"higher power" (than man) isn't a recognition of
"enlightmentment"---when most of the civilized societies (and some not
so civilized) were under the impression that a king had a "divine
right", or that might made right?
It is precisely because our "founders" promoted the notion of where
rights came from that we acknowledge their "enlightenment"
But to suggest that those enlightened 18th century men could have
anticipated the massive evil and exploitation of other men that the
industrial revolution brought (in ensuing immigration) is definitely
"un-enlightened".
The fight today about "strict construction' is NOT about high faluting
concepts of democracy and freedom---it's about the ***** power lost
by conservatives after the end of the Civil War, the 65+ years of
liberal /progressive policy, and the Civil rights era where every
major "principle" of conservatism took a boot to their ***** year
in-year out.
If you look beneath all the ***** emotional appeal, the code words
and "spin" you'll find the same simple basic issue-----"States rights"
or the power of the federal government to thwart power and wealth on a
state and local level.
This is about the loss of conservative political power.
Make yourself laugh
Research major headlines from 1962--1972 and tell us what political
ideology was being whipped and beaten on college campuses, the
streets, in election day after day.

===================================================================
At first, the "Southern strategy" was a numerical success. Some of
the senior Republican senators at the impeachment trial today are
Southern Democrats wooed into the GOP -- Trent Lott of Mississippi,
Strom Thurmond of South Carolina, Jesse Helms of North Carolina and
Phil Gramm of Texas. All have used blatant appeals to intolerance
to score political points throughout their careers.
In the early 1990s, former Ku Klux Klan Grand Wizard David Duke won
the Louisiana GOP gubernatorial nomination and was beaten by Democrat
Edwin Edwards, who was implicated in some shady dealings.
The infamous Bayou bumper sticker that helped Edwards get elected--
"Vote for the Crook, Not the Kook"--speaks volumes on the public mood
toward the (impeachment) showdown today.
Edward Tafel---Log Cabin Republicans

.
User: "MichaelC"

Title: Re: The Myth of the Separation of Church and State 06 Aug 2005 04:41:57 PM
<Adenoid-Hinkel@LoonyRighwing.com> wrote in message
news:a21af1d8s4no9bs4l5pave9bsdm946angl@4ax.com...

On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 15:32:28 GMT, "MichaelC"
<mikecraney@sbcglobal.net> wrote:


The question of what various Founders "meant" is relevant to any
discussion only as historical background


This opinion stated as fact. Many believe that the Founders, due to the
convergence of unique factors during which the US was incubated,

succeeded

in creating a near-perfect outline for how to run a government which,

while

providing for the key essentials of societal living, maximized personal
liberty within that context, and we mess with it at our peril.


Which is nonsense

Hardly. It's plainly logical that the experts on the original intent of a
work is the author of that work. Would you contest the notion that the
historical personage who is the best expert on the works of Plato might
be.....Plato?


Even IF the founders "thought" they had created a "near-perfect"
government, they had no way of knowing what future societies would
have do deal with.

Quite so, which is why provisions for admendment were included.


It's also utter nonsense to take a position that "messing with it"
perils us.

Only if you first assume that the Framers of the Constitution understood the
Constitution no better than you or I. I make no such assumption.


No such "messing with" has ever altered the basic premise for
instigating the constituion, the relationship of government to people,
and where "rights" come from.

On that point, you are largely correct.



After the ratification and adoption of the Constitution, writings,
speeches, sayings, thoughts, etc of "founders" isn't binding on
anything.


True, although wise people always look to experts for guidance when

making

difficult and strategic decisions, whether they have to or not. For
instance, when the gang of 14 negotiated the deal which avoided the

breakage

of the filibuster over judicial appointments, Sen. Byrd broke out the
Federalist Papers for guidance.


But ONLY for historical reference.

Depends what you mean by "historical reference." If you mean for no other
reason than historical interest, I'd ask why one would intentionally limit
their education in such a matter. If you mean to obtain guidance in order to
make an educated decision, I'd agree.


Conservatives insist that the "Federalist papers" and/or other
writings are legitimate for making law.

That's an overstatement. Conservatives refer to the Federalist and other
writings of the Founders for the reason stated above: the belief that the
Founders were unusually insightful men who thoughtfully, via the
Constitution, charted a course designed to maximize personal liberties and
minimize governmental control. Today, in a politically charged climate which
big money bouncing around buying this judge and that vote, we lack statesmen
who can be trusted as much (you could cynically restate this as "you can't
bribe a dead man") at your perogative.
Or, given a choice between government dictated by Team Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld,
Team Dean/Kerry/Clinton, or Team Jefferson/Madison/Jay, which would you most
trust? Thus, the growth of the originalist judicial philosophy.


Moreover, the most telling beliefs attributed to the "founders" is
their uncertainty that the "experiment" in government would actually
work.


Not surprising. The best of men are humble, and they knew they were

breaking

new ground.


Which is why we don't elevate the founders to god-like status.

I concur. It is an exaggeration to suggest that such is occuring.


So the hollywood elevation of near god-like status we now assign to
"founders" who lived in 18th century, rural agrarian, pre-industrial
revolution/technology society is rather silly.


So you say. I think the idea that they weren't enlightened is rather
narcissistic and egotistical.


You don't think that the unique notion that "rights" come from a
"higher power" (than man) isn't a recognition of
"enlightmentment"---when most of the civilized societies (and some not
so civilized) were under the impression that a king had a "divine
right", or that might made right?

Then clarify the statement. How is it that these men were enlightened in the
area of inalienable rights, and not in other areas? Do you see the
Constitution, Federalist, and other writings as a sort of Chinese buffet,
where you can pass through the line, scooping out a bit of what you like and
passing over what you do not? Is it not wiser to hold closely to the
original intent as a whole, doing the tough job of *amending* the document
when it is necessary?


It is precisely because our "founders" promoted the notion of where
rights came from that we acknowledge their "enlightenment"

But to suggest that those enlightened 18th century men could have
anticipated the massive evil and exploitation of other men that the
industrial revolution brought (in ensuing immigration) is definitely
"un-enlightened".

You believe that human nature has changed over the last three hundred years?


The fight today about "strict construction' is NOT about high faluting
concepts of democracy and freedom---it's about the ***** power lost
by conservatives after the end of the Civil War, the 65+ years of
liberal /progressive policy, and the Civil rights era where every
major "principle" of conservatism took a boot to their ***** year
in-year out.

You're entitled to see it the way you wish. What I read in the above
paragraph is the clear understanding that in order to move a
liberal/progressive agenda forward, you don't just have to beat the
conservatives, you have to beat the Founding Fathers.
Good luck with that.
Mike
<snip>
.
User: ""

Title: Re: The Myth of the Separation of Church and State 06 Aug 2005 09:25:19 PM
On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 21:41:57 GMT, "MichaelC"
<mikecraney@sbcglobal.net> wrote:


Hardly. It's plainly logical that the experts on the original intent of a
work is the author of that work. Would you contest the notion that the
historical personage who is the best expert on the works of Plato might
be.....Plato?

The doctrine of "original intent" is a modern concept. Pushing for
"strict construction" and use of the "Federalist papers" is a David
McIntosh theory.

Even IF the founders "thought" they had created a "near-perfect"
government, they had no way of knowing what future societies would
have do deal with.


Quite so, which is why provisions for admendment were included.

The constitution's body is administrative and framework. The Bill of
rights addresses relationships between national and state government,
and government and individual as a protection
The administrative provisions for amending the constitution have
nothing to do with the issue of whether or not laws passed by a
political body conform to constitutional principles.
Law is passed by a legislature. By conception, they are political.
Wealth and power affect legislation. Legislation can be passed
independent of whether or not it conforms to constitutional law.
That's why the courts can independently adopt, throw out, or modify
legislation.

It's also utter nonsense to take a position that "messing with it"
perils us.


Only if you first assume that the Framers of the Constitution understood the
Constitution no better than you or I. I make no such assumption.

The framers did not have to "interpret" the constitution in setting it
up. It is an administrative framework. Within a few years Marbury v.
Madison addressed what the founders could not have
conceptualized---that legislation or executive order must conform to
constitutional principles---Judical review.
You're trying to argue doctrines that have been accepted for the last
200+ years as if they're "wrong". They cannot be "wrong" because the
ONLY branch that gets to determine constitutionaliy is the USSC.

True, although wise people always look to experts for guidance when

making

difficult and strategic decisions, whether they have to or not. For
instance, when the gang of 14 negotiated the deal which avoided the

breakage

of the filibuster over judicial appointments, Sen. Byrd broke out the
Federalist Papers for guidance.


But ONLY for historical reference.


Depends what you mean by "historical reference." If you mean for no other
reason than historical interest, I'd ask why one would intentionally limit
their education in such a matter. If you mean to obtain guidance in order to
make an educated decision, I'd agree.

Because whether or not the "founders" believed something to be
applicable in 1776, (omitting the foundation of rights, etc) is only
relevant to what they knew at the time. . Constraining
constitutional interpretation of contract law, inter/intra-state
commerce, markets and society relationships to 18th century, rural,
agrarian society/thinking is patently crazy. We accept that "rights"
come from a higher power" and that we're intent on "forming a more
perfect union"

Conservatives insist that the "Federalist papers" and/or other
writings are legitimate for making law.


That's an overstatement. Conservatives refer to the Federalist and other
writings of the Founders for the reason stated above: the belief that the
Founders were unusually insightful men who thoughtfully, via the
Constitution, charted a course designed to maximize personal liberties and
minimize governmental control. Today, in a politically charged climate which
big money bouncing around buying this judge and that vote, we lack statesmen
who can be trusted as much (you could cynically restate this as "you can't
bribe a dead man") at your perogative.

Which is a dreamy, emotionally laden bunch of nonsense.. You just
elevated the founders to near deification status. "Personal
liberties" weren't for women and blacks, and what kind of "large
government" would you have expected in the 18th century?
The catch word in that nonsense you're describing in the 18th century
is "less government" and more "personal freedom" (which abounded in
those day anyway) and is a really about the loss of the ability of the
wealthy to do anything their money, and keeping government regulations
out of business interests That is why we got our nuts in a wringer at
the turn of last century


Or, given a choice between government dictated by Team Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld,
Team Dean/Kerry/Clinton, or Team Jefferson/Madison/Jay, which would you most
trust? Thus, the growth of the originalist judicial philosophy.

IOW you're a loonytarian?
Not curtailing the excesses of money and power leads to conditions we
found in the early 1900's. I would NEVER trust a system of government
that reverts to a already prove failure----loonytarianism
There is NO evidence that restricting wealth and power, regulating
money and business has ever reduced the activity of try

I concur. It is an exaggeration to suggest that such is occuring.

When you insist that 18th century, rural, agrarian politicans adopting
a "new" concept of government are something elevated to what you
describe, I'm not exaggerating


Then clarify the statement. How is it that these men were enlightened in the
area of inalienable rights, and not in other areas?

The predicate for the constitution is assigning where "rights" come
from. Not from man, not from strong men, not from spoils of war---but
of a rule of law with something other than man as the giver.
The rest of the constitution is nothing more than administration
structure designed in such a manner that it was supposed to counter
power of one branch of government over another. Having the experience
of dealing with parliament and the crown, it isn't brain surgery to
come up with models that could do that---at least on paper.

It is precisely because our "founders" promoted the notion of where
rights came from that we acknowledge their "enlightenment"

But to suggest that those enlightened 18th century men could have
anticipated the massive evil and exploitation of other men that the
industrial revolution brought (in ensuing immigration) is definitely
"un-enlightened".


You believe that human nature has changed over the last three hundred years?

Of course not. It is precisely because it hasn't, that government
MUST curtail excessive misuse of personal wealth and freedom--and from
business who only exist for profit.
It is Conservative/loonytarians who have this idiotic notion of not
counting the human condition and making super-idealistic models of
behavior that lead them to "think" that regulation isn't necessary.

The fight today about "strict construction' is NOT about high faluting
concepts of democracy and freedom---it's about the ***** power lost
by conservatives after the end of the Civil War, the 65+ years of
liberal /progressive policy, and the Civil rights era where every
major "principle" of conservatism took a boot to their ***** year
in-year out.


You're entitled to see it the way you wish. What I read in the above
paragraph is the clear understanding that in order to move a
liberal/progressive agenda forward, you don't just have to beat the
conservatives, you have to beat the Founding Fathers.

Not so
I don't have to accept the silly notion that the "founding Fathers"
created a major building in 1776 for all society down through the ages
to live in, but rather a framework of general principles that allows
different generations to build as they go.
And I'll remind you........
Had a conservative/loonytarian "agenda" ever been the general policy
of this nation, we'd never have survived the 30's.

===================================================================

"The commandments carry no internal evidence of divinity with them;
they contain some good moral precepts, such as any man qualified
to be a law-giver, or a legislator, could produce himself, without
having recourse to supernatural intervention.*
Thomas Paine---Founder
.
User: "MichaelC"

Title: Re: The Myth of the Separation of Church and State 07 Aug 2005 08:34:49 AM
<Adenoid-Hinkel@LoonyRighwing.com> wrote in message
news:32qaf119b29220jvtmpm1sh388h39f7kiu@4ax.com...

On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 21:41:57 GMT, "MichaelC"
<mikecraney@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

<snip>


And I'll remind you........

Had a conservative/loonytarian "agenda" ever been the general policy
of this nation, we'd never have survived the 30's.

Actually, it was Hoover's tax increase (taxes are a demosocialist "thing",
you'll recall) that turned the 1929 market correction into a major
Depression (the real pain of the Depression didn't start until well after
the "crash), after which the Goverment's (under FDR) mucking around with the
monetary policy (including FDR's obsession with kissing the silver state's
senator's asses by screwing with the silver policy) which nearly brought the
entire place down. The result was that the ethos of the nation from
"work-ethic" to "suck at the government tit", a failure of imagination which
is finally in the process of reversal, resulting as it currently is in a
booming economy, assuming that that the fiscal deficit incurred by the three
primary social programs (SS, Medicare, and Medicaid), which we can't come
close to affording, don't destroy the economy when the boomers start to
retire.
Your knowledge of economic history ain't worth *****, sherlock.
Mike
.
User: "Sid9"

Title: Re: The Myth of the Separation of Church and State 07 Aug 2005 08:38:59 AM
MichaelC wrote:

<Adenoid-Hinkel@LoonyRighwing.com> wrote in message
news:32qaf119b29220jvtmpm1sh388h39f7kiu@4ax.com...

On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 21:41:57 GMT, "MichaelC"
<mikecraney@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

<snip>


And I'll remind you........

Had a conservative/loonytarian "agenda" ever been the general policy
of this nation, we'd never have survived the 30's.


Actually, it was Hoover's tax increase (taxes are a demosocialist
"thing", you'll recall) that turned the 1929 market correction into a
major Depression (the real pain of the Depression didn't start until
well after the "crash), after which the Goverment's (under FDR)
mucking around with the monetary policy (including FDR's obsession
with kissing the silver state's senator's asses by screwing with the
silver policy) which nearly brought the entire place down. The result
was that the ethos of the nation from "work-ethic" to "suck at the
government tit", a failure of imagination which is finally in the
process of reversal, resulting as it currently is in a booming
economy, assuming that that the fiscal deficit incurred by the three
primary social programs (SS, Medicare, and Medicaid), which we can't
come close to affording, don't destroy the economy when the boomers
start to retire.

Your knowledge of economic history ain't worth *****, sherlock.

Mike

Ummm...the market crash 1929
US economy near standstill from 1929 including and through 1932
Hoover was still president
Roosevelt took office in 1933
.


User: "fred"

Title: Re: The Myth of the Separation of Church and State 06 Aug 2005 10:05:53 PM
wrote:

On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 21:41:57 GMT, "MichaelC"
<mikecraney@sbcglobal.net> wrote:



Hardly. It's plainly logical that the experts on the original intent of a
work is the author of that work. Would you contest the notion that the
historical personage who is the best expert on the works of Plato might
be.....Plato?


The doctrine of "original intent" is a modern concept. Pushing for
"strict construction" and use of the "Federalist papers" is a David
McIntosh theory.

Your assertion about original intent being a modern concept is pure
baloney:
"The true key for the construction of everything doubtful in a law is
the intention of the law-makers. This is most safely gathered from the
words, but may be sought also in extraneous circumstances provided they
do not contradict the express words of the law." --Thomas Jefferson to
Albert Gallatin, 1808. ME 12:59
So the "modern" concern about original intent is minimally almost 200
years old now.
You're in your own reality sir.


Even IF the founders "thought" they had created a "near-perfect"
government, they had no way of knowing what future societies would
have do deal with.


Quite so, which is why provisions for admendment were included.


The constitution's body is administrative and framework. The Bill of
rights addresses relationships between national and state government,
and government and individual as a protection

The administrative provisions for amending the constitution have
nothing to do with the issue of whether or not laws passed by a
political body conform to constitutional principles.

Law is passed by a legislature. By conception, they are political.
Wealth and power affect legislation. Legislation can be passed
independent of whether or not it conforms to constitutional law.

That's why the courts can independently adopt, throw out, or modify
legislation.

Your assertion that the courts can independently adopt, throw out, or
modify legislation is pure baloney:
"One single object... [will merit] the endless gratitude of society:
that of restraining the judges from usurping legislation." --Thomas
Jefferson to Edward Livingston, 1825. ME 16:113
"Laws are made for men of ordinary understanding and should, therefore,
be construed by the ordinary rules of common sense. Their meaning is
not to be sought for in metaphysical subtleties which may make anything
mean everything or nothing at pleasure." --Thomas Jefferson to William
Johnson, 1823. ME 15:450
You're in your own reality sir.


It's also utter nonsense to take a position that "messing with it"
perils us.


Only if you first assume that the Framers of the Constitution understood the
Constitution no better than you or I. I make no such assumption.


The framers did not have to "interpret" the constitution in setting it
up. It is an administrative framework. Within a few years Marbury v.

<snipped for brevity>
.
User: "CB"

Title: Re: The Myth of the Separation of Church and State 08 Aug 2005 06:29:47 AM
"fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1123383953.727001.185240@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...


Adenoid-Hinkel@LoonyRighwing.com wrote:

On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 21:41:57 GMT, "MichaelC"
<mikecraney@sbcglobal.net> wrote:



Hardly. It's plainly logical that the experts on the original intent of
a
work is the author of that work. Would you contest the notion that the
historical personage who is the best expert on the works of Plato might
be.....Plato?


The doctrine of "original intent" is a modern concept. Pushing for
"strict construction" and use of the "Federalist papers" is a David
McIntosh theory.


Your assertion about original intent being a modern concept is pure
baloney:

"The true key for the construction of everything doubtful in a law is
the intention of the law-makers. This is most safely gathered from the
words, but may be sought also in extraneous circumstances provided they
do not contradict the express words of the law." --Thomas Jefferson to
Albert Gallatin, 1808. ME 12:59

So the "modern" concern about original intent is minimally almost 200
years old now.

You're in your own reality sir.


Even IF the founders "thought" they had created a "near-perfect"
government, they had no way of knowing what future societies would
have do deal with.


Quite so, which is why provisions for admendment were included.


The constitution's body is administrative and framework. The Bill of
rights addresses relationships between national and state government,
and government and individual as a protection

The administrative provisions for amending the constitution have
nothing to do with the issue of whether or not laws passed by a
political body conform to constitutional principles.

Law is passed by a legislature. By conception, they are political.
Wealth and power affect legislation. Legislation can be passed
independent of whether or not it conforms to constitutional law.

That's why the courts can independently adopt, throw out, or modify
legislation.


Your assertion that the courts can independently adopt, throw out, or
modify legislation is pure baloney:

"One single object... [will merit] the endless gratitude of society:
that of restraining the judges from usurping legislation." --Thomas
Jefferson to Edward Livingston, 1825. ME 16:113

"Laws are made for men of ordinary understanding and should, therefore, <