| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Roger Johansson" |
| Date: |
15 Mar 2006 06:29:36 AM |
| Object: |
Re: The setup to destroy America |
Tracy wrote:
I do know that not ALL americans are like this.
I agree, USA is a big and wide country, culturally as well as
geographically, and there are all kinds of people in USA, as everywhere
else.
Some americans will experience how their country is being destroyed,
while others will experience that everything is getting better. There
are different ways to see the development, depending on how you see the
world and what education and training you have.
Personally I like Bush, because he does what is needed. He is a bad
president who is leading a nationalist and religious reactionary bunch
and he is doing it badly.
I wish the pope would be that wise and progressive.
The pope should step out on his balcony and shout to the people below:
"Hey, you idiots, you must obey me cause I am the pope.
Get me some condoms quickly you damned fools!"
(yes, I exaggerated quite a bit, but you understand the tendency)
That would destroy the credibility of the catholic church and allow
catholics all over the world to start thinking for themselves. Instead
he is jealously guarding the power over people's minds the vatican has,
and he thereby prolongs the process of secularization, and delays the
creation of a modern and free world.
I see progressive and intelligent leaders in the most unlikely places
in the world, doing what is needed, sacrificing a lot to speed up the
process of creating a better world, but I have not heard practically
anything really useful from the vatican.
The pope could at least start changing views on many classical issues.
"I have to tell you, my friends, that the god you believe in, a
supernatural being who is present everywhere in the universe, does not
exist, it is all a big misunderstanding.."
The time has passed when wars were fought for land and resources, or to
satisfy a small elite, now there is only a war if the leaders think it
is the best and quickest way to change people's minds so we can get
away from antiquated ideas which hinder progress and stops us from
building a united, democratic and freethinking world.
So I am guessing that
the majority of americans that fall into "the hubris of American
conception on its role in the world" (sorry, stolen from Sean's post!),
are simply ignorant and gullible?
Yes, but they are mostly victims of an old world, where national and
religious elites were ruling and they shaped the minds of people to
suit their interests.
The new leadership now has to neutralize that old conditioning and get
the country into a more normal situation as part of a global world.
It's a tricky business, trying to keep the old power elite happy while
changing the minds and the political agenda in radical ways.
Schooling plays a huge part - leaving
out all the bad stuff and exaggerating the *good* stuff about american
origins and culture. America isnt the only guilty party though are
they? Is it simply a case of, we pick on the American as a nation
Well, if you look far enough back in history.. but for the last half
century USA has been the really dominating initiator of world events,
which a lot of people in the world have suffered from.
If this is about ignorance and gullibility, why cant people just see
that murder, torture, maiming, raping, conquering is actually wrong -
its a simple concept, surely?
I think that view is slowly sinking in, but even if you realize this,
what can you do about it? First people need to understand that
everything is not as they thought, to prepare the way for new ideas.
Old idols and views have to lose the reputation they had built up, so
new ways to see things can find support among the people.
The most intelligent people in USA have to start building a new world,
spread more progressive political ideas, while the old values lose
their validity and a lot of people think that their world is falling to
pieces.
As a leader you first have to decide if you want to stand on the bad
side, represent old ideas, behave badly and take a fall and disappear,
or if you want to stand on the new progressive side, behave well, work
patiently to spread more useful modern ideas and continue with that for
the rest of your life.
If you are young you should go for the second option. You can always
change over to the first if you see a really good reason later.
Earlier in history the bad guys were really bad guys, but today many
bad guys are intelligent people who have volunteered to represent the
old views, and they are prepared to take the fall they are heading for,
no matter if it costs them their lives.
We need more communication and discussions. The faster we can spread
new and better ideas the less need is there for violent actions in the
world.
The intelligent people have a big responsibility. If we can enlighten
people quickly we can save a lot of people from suffering.
There are two ways to make somebody give up his confused and
detrimental ideas, beating him bloody until he gives up his old views,
or talk him into a new way of seeing things.
If the writers and talkers can work faster we can decrease the need for
violence and military actions.
That's why I have spent so much time thinking about how we could
organize the world in a better way, and work out how to explain it to
people in the simplest possible way.
--
Roger J.
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| User: "Roger Johansson" |
|
| Title: Re: The setup to destroy America |
15 Mar 2006 03:01:19 PM |
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We need more communication and discussions. The faster we can spread
new and better ideas the less need is there for violent actions in the
world.
I want to continue this thought, because it is so important.
We could save mankind from so much suffering if we could lead the
development better by thinking clearer and better.
The intelligent people have a big responsibility. If we can enlighten
people quickly we can save a lot of people from suffering.
The problem is that most intellectuals are very unwilling to discuss
openly with others, learn from each other, be prepared to give up their
old preconceptions, develop a new stand in cooperation with other
thinking people.
Most of them have learned to use symbolism, write between the lines,
hide the real message behind a more superficial story. This is a
typical feature of the cultural pattern we live in, the religious
taboos against talking openly about important things are still
preventing a useful intellectual development.
There are two ways to make somebody give up his confused and
detrimental ideas, beating him bloody until he gives up his old views,
or talk him into a new way of seeing things.
If the writers and talkers can work faster we can decrease the need for
violence and military actions.
Working faster means learning new stuff quicker, giving up old ideas
quicker, discuss in a more rational way, avoid getting caught in
defensive positions and defending old views with dirty tricks and
mudslinging.
That's why I have spent so much time thinking about how we could
organize the world in a better way, and work out how to explain it to
people in the simplest possible way.
We should work as scientists and engineers, select or elect among
ourselves the best and most creative thinkers to lead the work, put
forward our views in clear language, discuss openly, vote for the best
routes ahead, maybe work on a number of alternative routes
simultaneously, be prepared to revise our views if needed, so we can
arrive at a construction most of us can stand behind.
Choose the best possible technical tools to use, a newsgroup is a good
tool, but maybe we should combine it with a wiki to document and save
the best ideas, give the material a structure. We could have different
sections in such a wiki, where certain thinkers have the final say,
like the roger route, the steve route, the smith route, etc..
We can prevent so much violence and suffering, and shorten the process
and the way to a better organisation of our world. We could help to
clear up so many confused minds which are standing in the way of
progress.
It is the total failure of the intellectuals and media people in the
world which is the reason why military people have to do the only thing
they can do.
Brokeback mountain.
A new movie from hollywood may have one single slightly modern idea to
put forward, like accepting homosexuality, which is a new idea only a
hundred years old, and that movie is at the same time reinforcing a
thousand old preconceptions to become a success and make a big profit.
That way to make movies doesn't work to do what we should do now, we
have to find better ways to select views and ideas and develop better
ways to explain them.
--
Roger J.
.
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| User: "enki" |
|
| Title: Re: The setup to destroy America |
16 Mar 2006 11:05:28 AM |
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Most of them have learned to use symbolism, write between the lines,
hide the real message behind a more superficial story. This is a
typical feature of the cultural pattern we live in, the religious
taboos against talking openly about important things are still
preventing a useful intellectual development.
I think you have biaes. I see some people loose their patients with
you and I get fustrated with disagreements but I try to work through
them. Also I know that this group dosn't ammount to anythoing and few
people read this and are going to get persuaded either way. I do read
people that I disagree with and allow my thoughts to be challenged. I
would disagree with you chararization of society. People grow up with
a culture and generaly people take their culture as natural and see
other ideas as threats. That is not paticular to any culture plato
wrote about it thousands of years ago.
e should work as scientists and engineers, select or elect among
ourselves the best and most creative thinkers to lead the work, put
forward our views in clear language, discuss openly, vote for the best
routes ahead, maybe work on a number of alternative routes
simultaneously, be prepared to revise our views if needed, so we can
arrive at a construction most of us can stand behind.
You say what is best. That is tough and is a central point in
philosophy. The one premise you will have to deal with is that we all
have competing intersts that will influence our judgment. The best we
can do have a mechinism that makes decisions taking in consideration as
many intersts as possible.
Brokeback mountain.
A new movie from hollywood may have one single slightly modern idea to
put forward, like accepting homosexuality, which is a new idea only a
hundred years old, and that movie is at the same time reinforcing a
thousand old preconceptions to become a success and make a big profit.
Homosexuality wasn't a problem until the christian era. It is an
intersting study to see how sexual morals devloped. This devlopment
was part of a general direction of philosophy of the time getting away
from material world to a world of ideals. It persuit of worldy
pleasures was the root of evil because the physical world was seen as
changable and not reyable only the intellectual world of ideas was seen
as pure and truth. Most of this stemms from plato's line of thinking.
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