Religions > Atheism > Re: The Story of Joni Eareckson Tada Should Make Every Atheist Ashamed of Themselves
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Wayne Delia" |
| Date: |
17 Aug 2004 01:12:17 PM |
| Object: |
Re: The Story of Joni Eareckson Tada Should Make Every Atheist Ashamed of Themselves |
Holy *****! Sears has melted down again! No kidding. Copied to
alt.atheism for their entertainment... Check out the bottom. The
"Triforce" is back, and Sears thinks he is Jesus!
WMD
alvinstraight38@hotmail.com (Alvin) wrote in message news:<d2ec46.0408160918.1523d17b@posting.google.com>...
waynedelia@hotmail.com (Wayne Delia) wrote in message news:<a6f49994.0408131303.172fa7bc@posting.google.com>...
alvinstraight38@hotmail.com (Alvin) wrote in message news:<d2ec46.0408101352.bb947e6@posting.google.com>...
The story of Joni's 37 year struggle as a quadriplegic is a wonderful
testimony of faith in Jesus Christ, and the positive aspects of
Christianity.
Perhaps the most positive aspect of Christianity would be if a
Christian could demonstrate the promises Jesus made in Mark 16:17-18,
and completely heal the quadriplegic, restoring full use of arms and
legs, through faith, prayer, and laying on of hands.
Atheists desperately search for anything negative about
Christianity, blow it up, and distort the truth.
One negative thing about Christianity is that nobody takes Jesus's
words in Mark 16:17-18 as even remotely valid, not even devout
Christians. For that reason, the quadriplegic remains afflicted, even
though Jesus Himself said any ailment could be cured. This isn't blown
up at all - Joni is still a quadriplegic; I doubt if anyone has
seriously offered to invoke Jesus's promises in Mark 16:17-18 to
objectively cure her, and it simply will not happen.
They ignore the fact
that the Bible does have good practical teachings.
One of those practical teachings is that anyone can be healed of any
affliction or ailment by a sufficiently faithful Christian who prays
and lays on hands. But the fact is that this particular technique
doesn't even work 1% of the time, let alone the 100% of the time that
Jesus promised that it would work.
They ignore the
fact that without faith in Jesus Christ, Joni would have no hope or
reason to live.
That's not a fact at all. There are plenty of other hokey religious
beliefs out there.
Joni lives every day knowing that one day, she will
not be limited by physical disability.
But she has to die first, even according to the Christian belief. So,
it's a reasonable guess that the remainder of her life will continue
to be affected by quadriplegia.
One day, she will have a glorified body in heaven.
You've contradicted yourself. Above, you criticized atheists for your
bigoted, prejudicial, and thankfully wrong assertion that they would
think that she had no purpose in life. It turns out your strategy is
hardly any different: you see her purpose in life to shut up and put
up with the disability until she's dead, at which time you hope she'll
validate your particular relgious fantasy. That's not much of a
purpose in life at all: that everything will be fine once she's dead!
Meanwhile, if pressed for an opinion on the subject, and speaking for
myself only and not necessarily on behalf of any other atheist, I'd
say that her purpose in life would be to do the best she could in
whatever field of endeavor she found fulfilling, within the
constraints of her handicap, instead of holding or promoting false or
unfalsifiable hopes such as the heart-tugging stories you get suckered
into, like the one about the poor little crippled boy who was all bent
over because he was carrying an invisible box with invisible wings.
What she has done with her life is extremely admirable, no thanks to
God at all. God has the power to remove her afflictions immediately,
but chooses not to. Christians supposedly have the power to cure any
illness or affliction simply through prayer and laying on of hands,
but they choose not to. Instead, victims of physical handicaps such as
Joni are exploited to show others that they need to suck up to God
even though He won't lift a finger to relieve any of the pain they may
be experiencing - the ultimate con game.
Now with the atheist belief, Joni has no
hope, or reason to live and struggle through the physical pain.
Of course she does. She can inspire other physically handicapped
people to accomplish much of which they may have thought they could
never accomplish. Further, modern medicine has refined pain management
and physical therapy to the point where excessive pain is no longer
inevitable.
Now with the CHRISTIAN belief, Joni has the hope that a Christian
could heal her physical disability per Mark 16:17-18, but nobody does.
She has the hope that she could pray for a complete healing per Mark
11:22-24, but God doesn't listen to that prayer, evidently. Either she
doesn't have sufficient faith (a "mustard's seed" worth) or else God
needs her to be physically handicapped for a more vague, less
effective lesson to be taught: that she believes in God even though He
won't help her.
She might as well commit suicide.
Nowhere in my opinion does suicide come into play; however, in the
Christian position you've mentioned, suicide would be a quick,
efficient means of obtaining what you've characterized her "purpose in
life."
Yet, through her faith, God brought Joni a loving husband, an amazing
talent to paint with her mouth, and the ability to reach out to
countless cripples all over the world.
The problem is, Joni didn't need God to do that for her. She could do
that all by herself, and is respected and honored for doing so. What
God could have done was completely heal her of all her afflictions,
but He chose not to. Most likely, it's because He's a sadistic
*****.
Amazingly, she sees her disability as a blessing.
Good for her!
You can go to http://www.joniandfriends.org/ and listen to her
powerful interview with Larry King.
Or you can go to http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d2ec46.0408031446.5baf3926%40posting.google.com&output=gplain
and read a powerful testimony to the presence of God in a person's
life, when David Sears does not say the following:
"If you get bit by a mean dog enough times, you will start to believe
that it's a mean dog despite what other idiots like you say. You must
be the fucking loser to be targeted so much."
WMD
Triforce analysis - subject continues to take the bait, and harass
the Sears construct. Amazingly, he will find some way to deny that he
is purposely doing keyword searches on "alvinstraight38" which is the
only way he can find these posts since they are made in non-atheist
forums.
Conclusion: WMD (Wayne of Mass Dookie?) does not represent the
typical atheist. Instead, he has demonstrated this vendetta against
God, and his attacks against Sears are really an extension to his deep
rooted hatred of Jesus Christ. There is a 99.99999% probability that
he will response to this post, and deny the conclusion. From the
small historical records, we have extracted a case where he once
converted a Christian to atheism perhaps by wearing the person down
mentally. The motive of WMD would appear to try to break Sears
resolve, and achieve ultimate victory if Sears will just curse God and
become a God hater.
Recommended action: Continue state of ignoring subject. Dismantle
user names. We have no future use for this subject. Suspected mental
instability.
.
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| User: "MrD" |
|
| Title: Re: The Story of Joni Eareckson Tada Should Make Every Atheist Ashamed of Themselves |
22 Aug 2004 08:41:28 AM |
|
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"Wayne Delia" <waynedelia@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a6f49994.0408170759.5a01a609@posting.google.com...
Holy *****! Sears has melted down again! No kidding. Copied to
alt.atheism for their entertainment... Check out the bottom. The
"Triforce" is back, and Sears thinks he is Jesus!
WMD
alvinstraight38@hotmail.com (Alvin) wrote in message
news:<d2ec46.0408160918.1523d17b@posting.google.com>...
waynedelia@hotmail.com (Wayne Delia) wrote in message
news:<a6f49994.0408131303.172fa7bc@posting.google.com>...
alvinstraight38@hotmail.com (Alvin) wrote in message
news:<d2ec46.0408101352.bb947e6@posting.google.com>...
The story of Joni's 37 year struggle as a quadriplegic is a
wonderful
testimony of faith in Jesus Christ, and the positive aspects of
Christianity.
Perhaps the most positive aspect of Christianity would be if a
Christian could demonstrate the promises Jesus made in Mark 16:17-18,
and completely heal the quadriplegic, restoring full use of arms and
legs, through faith, prayer, and laying on of hands.
Atheists desperately search for anything negative about
Christianity, blow it up, and distort the truth.
One negative thing about Christianity is that nobody takes Jesus's
words in Mark 16:17-18 as even remotely valid, not even devout
Christians. For that reason, the quadriplegic remains afflicted, even
though Jesus Himself said any ailment could be cured. This isn't blown
up at all - Joni is still a quadriplegic; I doubt if anyone has
seriously offered to invoke Jesus's promises in Mark 16:17-18 to
objectively cure her, and it simply will not happen.
They ignore the fact
that the Bible does have good practical teachings.
One of those practical teachings is that anyone can be healed of any
affliction or ailment by a sufficiently faithful Christian who prays
and lays on hands. But the fact is that this particular technique
doesn't even work 1% of the time, let alone the 100% of the time that
Jesus promised that it would work.
They ignore the
fact that without faith in Jesus Christ, Joni would have no hope or
reason to live.
That's not a fact at all. There are plenty of other hokey religious
beliefs out there.
Joni lives every day knowing that one day, she will
not be limited by physical disability.
But she has to die first, even according to the Christian belief. So,
it's a reasonable guess that the remainder of her life will continue
to be affected by quadriplegia.
One day, she will have a glorified body in heaven.
You've contradicted yourself. Above, you criticized atheists for your
bigoted, prejudicial, and thankfully wrong assertion that they would
think that she had no purpose in life. It turns out your strategy is
hardly any different: you see her purpose in life to shut up and put
up with the disability until she's dead, at which time you hope she'll
validate your particular relgious fantasy. That's not much of a
purpose in life at all: that everything will be fine once she's dead!
Meanwhile, if pressed for an opinion on the subject, and speaking for
myself only and not necessarily on behalf of any other atheist, I'd
say that her purpose in life would be to do the best she could in
whatever field of endeavor she found fulfilling, within the
constraints of her handicap, instead of holding or promoting false or
unfalsifiable hopes such as the heart-tugging stories you get suckered
into, like the one about the poor little crippled boy who was all bent
over because he was carrying an invisible box with invisible wings.
What she has done with her life is extremely admirable, no thanks to
God at all. God has the power to remove her afflictions immediately,
but chooses not to. Christians supposedly have the power to cure any
illness or affliction simply through prayer and laying on of hands,
but they choose not to. Instead, victims of physical handicaps such as
Joni are exploited to show others that they need to suck up to God
even though He won't lift a finger to relieve any of the pain they may
be experiencing - the ultimate con game.
Now with the atheist belief, Joni has no
hope, or reason to live and struggle through the physical pain.
Of course she does. She can inspire other physically handicapped
people to accomplish much of which they may have thought they could
never accomplish. Further, modern medicine has refined pain management
and physical therapy to the point where excessive pain is no longer
inevitable.
Now with the CHRISTIAN belief, Joni has the hope that a Christian
could heal her physical disability per Mark 16:17-18, but nobody does.
She has the hope that she could pray for a complete healing per Mark
11:22-24, but God doesn't listen to that prayer, evidently. Either she
doesn't have sufficient faith (a "mustard's seed" worth) or else God
needs her to be physically handicapped for a more vague, less
effective lesson to be taught: that she believes in God even though He
won't help her.
She might as well commit suicide.
Nowhere in my opinion does suicide come into play; however, in the
Christian position you've mentioned, suicide would be a quick,
efficient means of obtaining what you've characterized her "purpose in
life."
Yet, through her faith, God brought Joni a loving husband, an
amazing
talent to paint with her mouth, and the ability to reach out to
countless cripples all over the world.
The problem is, Joni didn't need God to do that for her. She could do
that all by herself, and is respected and honored for doing so. What
God could have done was completely heal her of all her afflictions,
but He chose not to. Most likely, it's because He's a sadistic
*****.
Amazingly, she sees her disability as a blessing.
Good for her!
You can go to http://www.joniandfriends.org/ and listen to her
powerful interview with Larry King.
Or you can go to
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d2ec46.0408031446.5baf3926%40posting.google.com&output=gplain
and read a powerful testimony to the presence of God in a person's
life, when David Sears does not say the following:
"If you get bit by a mean dog enough times, you will start to believe
that it's a mean dog despite what other idiots like you say. You must
be the fucking loser to be targeted so much."
WMD
Triforce analysis - subject continues to take the bait, and harass
the Sears construct. Amazingly, he will find some way to deny that he
is purposely doing keyword searches on "alvinstraight38" which is the
only way he can find these posts since they are made in non-atheist
forums.
Conclusion: WMD (Wayne of Mass Dookie?) does not represent the
typical atheist. Instead, he has demonstrated this vendetta against
God, and his attacks against Sears are really an extension to his deep
rooted hatred of Jesus Christ. There is a 99.99999% probability that
he will response to this post, and deny the conclusion. From the
small historical records, we have extracted a case where he once
converted a Christian to atheism perhaps by wearing the person down
mentally. The motive of WMD would appear to try to break Sears
resolve, and achieve ultimate victory if Sears will just curse God and
become a God hater.
Wow, who did Wayne 'convert' to atheism by wearing them down mentally?
I know my conversations with him when I was a Christian helped me to see the
errors in my way of thinking, but that wasn't Wayne's doing, it was my own.
He merely helped me to see the possibilities for error in my own logic.
Wayne asks simple straight forward questions that get to the heart of the
problem. As a Christian, I was unable to answer them honestly. I chose
honesty over fantasy.
.
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| User: "Wayne Delia" |
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| Title: Re: The Story of Joni Eareckson Tada Should Make Every Atheist Ashamed of Themselves |
24 Aug 2004 02:30:15 AM |
|
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"MrD" <nachobiznez@all.com> wrote in message news:<cga7pa$n3b$1@news.netins.net>...
alvinstraight38@hotmail.com (Alvin) wrote in message
news:<d2ec46.0408160918.1523d17b@posting.google.com>...
From the
small historical records, we have extracted a case where he once
converted a Christian to atheism perhaps by wearing the person down
mentally. The motive of WMD would appear to try to break Sears
resolve, and achieve ultimate victory if Sears will just curse God and
become a God hater.
Wow, who did Wayne 'convert' to atheism by wearing them down mentally?
Some guy who's a pig farmer. :) and whom I consider a very good
friend.
I know my conversations with him when I was a Christian helped me to see the
errors in my way of thinking, but that wasn't Wayne's doing, it was my own.
He merely helped me to see the possibilities for error in my own logic.
Wayne asks simple straight forward questions that get to the heart of the
problem. As a Christian, I was unable to answer them honestly. I chose
honesty over fantasy.
I think that even as a Christian, you answered my questions very
honestly, and I admired you for your candor. The only difference was
possibly the degree of comfort with the answers, with vs. without a
presupposition that God was necessarily all-good. Your realization
that not all atheists are evil and wear black cowboy hats, combined
with my realization that there are some Christians with extremely high
levels of personal integrity, contributed to very positive growth for
both of us. I will never forget your well-intended attempt to begin
collecting $10K for the Joseph and Lisa Delia College Fund in exchange
for me becoming a Christian: that took genuine conviction and
initiative, even though the results fell somewhat short. :) None of
this, however, fits into David Sears's particular prejudices and
bigotry against anyone not sharing his beliefs, so the significance
will be pretty much lost on him.
Still, you gotta feel bad for the guy. This whole "Triforce" fantasy,
and his multiple personalities - remember his "Ned Riles" character
using his "maven" ID, who attempted to take your survey on sexual
experience, and failed miserably? His recent bouts of profanity and
frankly abhorrent racial bigotry don't speak very well of him as a
Christian.
Even as an atheist, I can refer to Sears, and say "There, but for the
grace of God, go I."
WMD
.
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| User: "MrD" |
|
| Title: Re: The Story of Joni Eareckson Tada Should Make Every Atheist Ashamed of Themselves |
24 Aug 2004 06:51:38 AM |
|
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"Wayne Delia" <waynedelia@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a6f49994.0408232330.1ee9b0@posting.google.com...
"MrD" <nachobiznez@all.com> wrote in message
news:<cga7pa$n3b$1@news.netins.net>...
alvinstraight38@hotmail.com (Alvin) wrote in message
news:<d2ec46.0408160918.1523d17b@posting.google.com>...
From the
small historical records, we have extracted a case where he once
converted a Christian to atheism perhaps by wearing the person down
mentally. The motive of WMD would appear to try to break Sears
resolve, and achieve ultimate victory if Sears will just curse God
and
become a God hater.
Wow, who did Wayne 'convert' to atheism by wearing them down mentally?
Some guy who's a pig farmer. :) and whom I consider a very good
friend.
I remember that guy! I'm pretty sure you didn't wear him down, though.
I know my conversations with him when I was a Christian helped me to see
the
errors in my way of thinking, but that wasn't Wayne's doing, it was my
own.
He merely helped me to see the possibilities for error in my own logic.
Wayne asks simple straight forward questions that get to the heart of
the
problem. As a Christian, I was unable to answer them honestly. I chose
honesty over fantasy.
I think that even as a Christian, you answered my questions very
honestly, and I admired you for your candor. The only difference was
possibly the degree of comfort with the answers, with vs. without a
presupposition that God was necessarily all-good. Your realization
that not all atheists are evil and wear black cowboy hats, combined
with my realization that there are some Christians with extremely high
levels of personal integrity, contributed to very positive growth for
both of us. I will never forget your well-intended attempt to begin
collecting $10K for the Joseph and Lisa Delia College Fund in exchange
for me becoming a Christian: that took genuine conviction and
initiative, even though the results fell somewhat short. :) None of
this, however, fits into David Sears's particular prejudices and
bigotry against anyone not sharing his beliefs, so the significance
will be pretty much lost on him.
That fund drive was pretty telling. Money seemed more important to the
Christians than your children did. They could have easily all contributed
just a few bucks a piece to raise the 10 Grand, causing your children to be
raised in a Christian Belief environment. Instead they 'just said no'.
I guess now I'm glad they did. That taught me more about actual belief than
any other lesson I've personally had.
Still, you gotta feel bad for the guy. This whole "Triforce" fantasy,
and his multiple personalities - remember his "Ned Riles" character
using his "maven" ID, who attempted to take your survey on sexual
experience, and failed miserably? His recent bouts of profanity and
frankly abhorrent racial bigotry don't speak very well of him as a
Christian.
Sears is definitely conflicted. I've just given up on Robert Winn for
holding to the same sort of thinking skills that led Sears to his multiple
personality problems.
When people won't or can't answer honest conversation attempts in an adult
manner, I cut out when the entertainment value is gone.
Even as an atheist, I can refer to Sears, and say "There, but for the
grace of God, go I."
Yes, the saying is something we can all understand, culturally.
Unfortunately, too many nut cases will think that you've just admitted to
belief in God. I could just as easily say that their use of 'bless you'
implies they worship the Goddess of the Wiccan's. Oh well, they aren't
likely to grow up any time soon.
Bless you, Wayne!
.
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| User: "Alvin" |
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| Title: Re: The Story of Joni Eareckson Tada Should Make Every Atheist Ashamed of Themselves |
24 Aug 2004 01:31:09 PM |
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The voice of reason cries out into Wayne's darkness
waynedelia@hotmail.com (Wayne Delia) wrote in message news:<a6f49994.0408232330.1ee9b0@posting.google.com>...
"MrD" <nachobiznez@all.com> wrote in message news:<cga7pa$n3b$1@news.netins.net>...
alvinstraight38@hotmail.com (Alvin) wrote in message
news:<d2ec46.0408160918.1523d17b@posting.google.com>...
From the
small historical records, we have extracted a case where he once
converted a Christian to atheism perhaps by wearing the person down
mentally. The motive of WMD would appear to try to break Sears
resolve, and achieve ultimate victory if Sears will just curse God and
become a God hater.
Wow, who did Wayne 'convert' to atheism by wearing them down mentally?
Some guy who's a pig farmer. :) and whom I consider a very good
friend.
I know my conversations with him when I was a Christian helped me to see the
errors in my way of thinking, but that wasn't Wayne's doing, it was my own.
He merely helped me to see the possibilities for error in my own logic.
Wayne asks simple straight forward questions that get to the heart of the
problem. As a Christian, I was unable to answer them honestly. I chose
honesty over fantasy.
I think that even as a Christian, you answered my questions very
honestly, and I admired you for your candor. The only difference was
possibly the degree of comfort with the answers, with vs. without a
presupposition that God was necessarily all-good. Your realization
that not all atheists are evil and wear black cowboy hats, combined
with my realization that there are some Christians with extremely high
levels of personal integrity, contributed to very positive growth for
both of us. I will never forget your well-intended attempt to begin
collecting $10K for the Joseph and Lisa Delia College Fund in exchange
for me becoming a Christian: that took genuine conviction and
initiative, even though the results fell somewhat short. :) None of
this, however, fits into David Sears's particular prejudices and
bigotry against anyone not sharing his beliefs, so the significance
will be pretty much lost on him.
Let's speak about your bigotry and prejudice against Christians such
as your inability to say one nice thing about Christianity. I can say
nice things about black people, and of course, the lab rat didn't
realize that it was all just a test to promote your own hypocrisy.
The post had no words or anything to do with atheism yet you butted in
to harass me in a non-atheist newsgroup despite repeated requests to
LEAVE ME ALONE. Are you so stupid that you don't get the message? I
don't like you, I think you're full of pus, and all things disgusting,
you are arrogant, a liar, and bloated with pride. The funny element
of this experiment is that you prove that atheists are evil. You have
failed completely to prove that atheists are loving, caring human
beings. You are this annoying agent of Satan that takes delight and
pleasure in the weakness of Christians. At least some atheists know
when to quit when you are beating a dead horse.
Still, you gotta feel bad for the guy.
Is that why you insist of harassing me, and rubbing salt into wounds?
Yea, you're a real sweetheart. Maybe your anger radiates from that
balding scalp of yours.
This whole "Triforce" fantasy,
Which you can not prove. The only fantasy is your need for the
Triforce to be a fantasy.
and his multiple personalities - remember his "Ned Riles" character
using his "maven" ID, who attempted to take your survey on sexual
experience, and failed miserably? His recent bouts of profanity and
frankly abhorrent racial bigotry don't speak very well of him as a
Christian.
You are quite profane yourself. You need to clean up your own act
before you have the right to judge the standards of Christianity.
Besides, no one should trust your warped definition of Christianity.
From your own statements, no one is a true Christian because true
Christians can physically move mountains.
Even as an atheist, I can refer to Sears, and say "There, but for the
grace of God, go I."
WMD
And I can Thank God that I'm nothing like you. Now, please leave me
alone.
.
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| User: "Wayne Delia" |
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| Title: Re: The Story of Joni Eareckson Tada Should Make Every Atheist Ashamed of Themselves |
25 Aug 2004 05:18:23 PM |
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(Alvin) wrote in message news:<d2ec46.0408241031.35c5677b@posting.google.com>...
The voice of reason cries out into Wayne's darkness
If you were referring to yourself, it's more like the voice of
superstition, frustration, profanity, and ignorance.
waynedelia@hotmail.com (Wayne Delia) wrote in message news:<a6f49994.0408232330.1ee9b0@posting.google.com>...
I think that even as a Christian, you answered my questions very
honestly, and I admired you for your candor. The only difference was
possibly the degree of comfort with the answers, with vs. without a
presupposition that God was necessarily all-good. Your realization
that not all atheists are evil and wear black cowboy hats, combined
with my realization that there are some Christians with extremely high
levels of personal integrity, contributed to very positive growth for
both of us. I will never forget your well-intended attempt to begin
collecting $10K for the Joseph and Lisa Delia College Fund in exchange
for me becoming a Christian: that took genuine conviction and
initiative, even though the results fell somewhat short. :) None of
this, however, fits into David Sears's particular prejudices and
bigotry against anyone not sharing his beliefs, so the significance
will be pretty much lost on him.
Let's speak about your bigotry and prejudice against Christians such
as your inability to say one nice thing about Christianity.
That's contradicted by my first sentence in the paragraph above.
You've really got to pay attention. You're flailing away, and making a
fool of yourself.
I can say
nice things about black people, and of course, the lab rat didn't
realize that it was all just a test to promote your own hypocrisy.
You didn't say nice things about black people. You started a thread
entitled "Another Black Lets Me Down," taking it as an opportunity to
stereotype and generalize the reluctance of black people to provide
you with free services. When someone else pointed out your bigotry,
you burst into profanity. I believe the perjorative term you used was
"fucker".
The post had no words or anything to do with atheism yet you butted in
to harass me in a non-atheist newsgroup despite repeated requests to
LEAVE ME ALONE.
You don't have to request that at all. You have me on killfile,
remember? Or were you lying about that? A Christian like you wouldn't
lie, would you?
Are you so stupid that you don't get the message?
While I make no claims about my own intelligence, I offer the
following link as evidence:
http://www.iqtest.com/view/iqtest/options/990120/9168621219578
If you think I'm stupid, would you care to describe how you did when
you took the same test - twice? How does it feel to have an IQ score
more than 40 points less than someone you consider stupid? Didn't you
learn your lesson the first time you failed miserably?
I don't like you, I think you're full of pus, and all things disgusting,
you are arrogant, a liar, and bloated with pride.
"But I tell you: Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good
to those who hate you, and pray for those who persecute you..."
(Matthew 5:44, and Luke 6:27-28) But that's only Jesus talking - good
Christians like you don't have to pay any attention to His words.
The funny element
of this experiment is that you prove that atheists are evil.
You can't even tell the difference between "proof" and "evidence", and
your idea of evil is merely anyone or anything that hurts your
feelings.
You have failed completely to prove that atheists are loving, caring human
beings.
The assertion that everyone in a large class of people necessarily
share a common behavior unrelated to the qualifications of membership
in that group is nothing more than a prejudicial stereotype.
The problem is, though, I've often provided extensive evidence (not
"proof") of my concern and feelings for my wife, son, and daughter, to
which you've objected on the basis that you perceive my life as being
much more satisfying and fulfilling than yours, which does not fit in
with your bigoted and prejudicial view of atheists.
You are this annoying agent of Satan that takes delight and
pleasure in the weakness of Christians.
With this post of yours, to which I am responding, wouldn't it be fair
to characterize you as an annoying agent of God that takes delight and
pleasure in the perceived weakness of atheists? Then absent any
demonstration that
At least some atheists know
when to quit when you are beating a dead horse.
If you consider Christianity to be a dead horse - or your own pathetic
situation in life to be a dead horse - that's fine.
Still, you gotta feel bad for the guy.
Is that why you insist of harassing me, and rubbing salt into wounds?
Yea, you're a real sweetheart. Maybe your anger radiates from that
balding scalp of yours.
"But I tell you: Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good
to those who hate you, and pray for those who persecute you..."
(Matthew 5:44, and Luke 6:27-28) But that's only Jesus talking - good
Christians like you don't have to pay any attention to His words.
This whole "Triforce" fantasy,
Which you can not prove. The only fantasy is your need for the
Triforce to be a fantasy.
No one else is responsible for proving the validity of your own
fantasies. Any arbitrary proposition is not deemed true until it is
disproved. You've never understood that, and I suspect that's why
you've been sucked in so deep into the fantasies of the Triforce - and
the fantasies of Christianity.
and his multiple personalities - remember his "Ned Riles" character
using his "maven" ID, who attempted to take your survey on sexual
experience, and failed miserably? His recent bouts of profanity and
frankly abhorrent racial bigotry don't speak very well of him as a
Christian.
You are quite profane yourself.
So what? I'm not a member of a religion which professes to have higher
moral standards that exclude profanity. You, however, claim to be a
Christian, and you swear like a trooper - including posts of yours
written very recently.
You need to clean up your own act
before you have the right to judge the standards of Christianity.
And because of that, you feel you have the right to break those same
standards? You're using the fact that others not held to the same
standards occasionally swear as an excuse for your own profanity, even
though you're held to the standards of Christianity? That's a logical
fallacy known as "tu quoque" (Latin for "you too") in which a
discussion of other people's profanity fails to address the issue of
your own profanity.
Besides, no one should trust your warped definition of Christianity.
My operating definition of Christianity is that it is doctrine of the
teachings of the first-century Jesus of Nazareth as described in the
Bible. What do you feel is so warped about that?
From your own statements, no one is a true Christian because true
Christians can physically move mountains.
Those aren't my statements; those are from Jesus in Mark 11:22-24.
Anyone with just a mustard's seed of faith would be able to physically
move mountains, according to Jesus. Those who call themselves
Christians, then, who are unable to physically move mountains,
apparently don't have a mustard seed's worth of faith, which is not
very flattering about Christianity - or else Jesus was lying in Mark
11:22-24. If you have any problems with those claims, take them up
with Jesus.
Even as an atheist, I can refer to Sears, and say "There, but for the
grace of God, go I."
WMD
And I can Thank God that I'm nothing like you.
Imagine how grateful I am for the same thing! But since it's plainly
clear that my life is much more satisfying and fulfilling than yours
is (if your posts are to be believed), I can reasonably conclude I'm
pretty darn well off.
Now, please leave me alone.
I don't have to: you've got me in your "killfile", remember?
WMD
.
|
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| User: "MrD" |
|
| Title: Re: The Story of Joni Eareckson Tada Should Make Every Atheist Ashamed of Themselves |
25 Aug 2004 05:41:17 PM |
|
|
"Wayne Delia" <waynedelia@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a6f49994.0408251418.fa390c1@posting.google.com...
alvinstraight38@hotmail.com (Alvin) wrote in message
news:<d2ec46.0408241031.35c5677b@posting.google.com>...
The voice of reason cries out into Wayne's darkness
If you were referring to yourself, it's more like the voice of
superstition, frustration, profanity, and ignorance.
waynedelia@hotmail.com (Wayne Delia) wrote in message
news:<a6f49994.0408232330.1ee9b0@posting.google.com>...
I think that even as a Christian, you answered my questions very
honestly, and I admired you for your candor. The only difference was
possibly the degree of comfort with the answers, with vs. without a
presupposition that God was necessarily all-good. Your realization
that not all atheists are evil and wear black cowboy hats, combined
with my realization that there are some Christians with extremely high
levels of personal integrity, contributed to very positive growth for
both of us. I will never forget your well-intended attempt to begin
collecting $10K for the Joseph and Lisa Delia College Fund in exchange
for me becoming a Christian: that took genuine conviction and
initiative, even though the results fell somewhat short. :) None of
this, however, fits into David Sears's particular prejudices and
bigotry against anyone not sharing his beliefs, so the significance
will be pretty much lost on him.
Let's speak about your bigotry and prejudice against Christians such
as your inability to say one nice thing about Christianity.
That's contradicted by my first sentence in the paragraph above.
You've really got to pay attention. You're flailing away, and making a
fool of yourself.
You certainly were able to say a few nice things about me while I was a
Christian.
I can say
nice things about black people, and of course, the lab rat didn't
realize that it was all just a test to promote your own hypocrisy.
You didn't say nice things about black people. You started a thread
entitled "Another Black Lets Me Down," taking it as an opportunity to
stereotype and generalize the reluctance of black people to provide
you with free services. When someone else pointed out your bigotry,
you burst into profanity. I believe the perjorative term you used was
"fucker".
The post had no words or anything to do with atheism yet you butted in
to harass me in a non-atheist newsgroup despite repeated requests to
LEAVE ME ALONE.
You don't have to request that at all. You have me on killfile,
remember? Or were you lying about that? A Christian like you wouldn't
lie, would you?
Are you so stupid that you don't get the message?
While I make no claims about my own intelligence, I offer the
following link as evidence:
http://www.iqtest.com/view/iqtest/options/990120/9168621219578
Wayne! Are you still selling this old rag?! The link has expired, btw.
I'll vouch for you though, I remember, when the link worked, that Wayne had
a score just a bit higher than mine. 155, wasn't it? 161? All I can attest
to honestly is recalling it was higher than mine tested at the same site and
I received 151. As I said at the time, I'm smart enough to know I'm not
that smart. But relatively speaking, it seems to be a good guide. You
scored roughly 25% higher than Sears.
If you think I'm stupid, would you care to describe how you did when
you took the same test - twice? How does it feel to have an IQ score
more than 40 points less than someone you consider stupid? Didn't you
learn your lesson the first time you failed miserably?
I don't like you, I think you're full of pus, and all things disgusting,
you are arrogant, a liar, and bloated with pride.
"But I tell you: Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good
to those who hate you, and pray for those who persecute you..."
(Matthew 5:44, and Luke 6:27-28) But that's only Jesus talking - good
Christians like you don't have to pay any attention to His words.
Good Christians are in constant contact with the Holy Spirit, so they can
edit at will.
Everyone knows the Bible was more like guidelines than an actual code.
The funny element
of this experiment is that you prove that atheists are evil.
You can't even tell the difference between "proof" and "evidence", and
your idea of evil is merely anyone or anything that hurts your
feelings.
You have failed completely to prove that atheists are loving, caring
human
beings.
The assertion that everyone in a large class of people necessarily
share a common behavior unrelated to the qualifications of membership
in that group is nothing more than a prejudicial stereotype.
The problem is, though, I've often provided extensive evidence (not
"proof") of my concern and feelings for my wife, son, and daughter, to
which you've objected on the basis that you perceive my life as being
much more satisfying and fulfilling than yours, which does not fit in
with your bigoted and prejudicial view of atheists.
He even calls me friend! (tear) What a guy. So much for prejudice.
.
|
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| User: "Alvin" |
|
| Title: Re: The Story of Joni Eareckson Tada Should Make Every Atheist Ashamed of Themselves |
26 Aug 2004 11:22:54 AM |
|
|
"MrD" <nachobiznez@all.com> wrote in message news:<cgj5bv$d8t$1@news.netins.net>...
"Wayne Delia" <waynedelia@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a6f49994.0408251418.fa390c1@posting.google.com...
alvinstraight38@hotmail.com (Alvin) wrote in message
news:<d2ec46.0408241031.35c5677b@posting.google.com>...
The voice of reason cries out into Wayne's darkness
If you were referring to yourself, it's more like the voice of
superstition, frustration, profanity, and ignorance.
waynedelia@hotmail.com (Wayne Delia) wrote in message
news:<a6f49994.0408232330.1ee9b0@posting.google.com>...
I think that even as a Christian, you answered my questions very
honestly, and I admired you for your candor. The only difference was
possibly the degree of comfort with the answers, with vs. without a
presupposition that God was necessarily all-good. Your realization
that not all atheists are evil and wear black cowboy hats, combined
with my realization that there are some Christians with extremely high
levels of personal integrity, contributed to very positive growth for
both of us. I will never forget your well-intended attempt to begin
collecting $10K for the Joseph and Lisa Delia College Fund in exchange
for me becoming a Christian: that took genuine conviction and
initiative, even though the results fell somewhat short. :) None of
this, however, fits into David Sears's particular prejudices and
bigotry against anyone not sharing his beliefs, so the significance
will be pretty much lost on him.
Let's speak about your bigotry and prejudice against Christians such
as your inability to say one nice thing about Christianity.
That's contradicted by my first sentence in the paragraph above.
You've really got to pay attention. You're flailing away, and making a
fool of yourself.
You certainly were able to say a few nice things about me while I was a
Christian.
Did he say anything nice about Christianity?
I can say
nice things about black people, and of course, the lab rat didn't
realize that it was all just a test to promote your own hypocrisy.
You didn't say nice things about black people. You started a thread
entitled "Another Black Lets Me Down," taking it as an opportunity to
stereotype and generalize the reluctance of black people to provide
you with free services. When someone else pointed out your bigotry,
you burst into profanity. I believe the perjorative term you used was
"fucker".
The post had no words or anything to do with atheism yet you butted in
to harass me in a non-atheist newsgroup despite repeated requests to
LEAVE ME ALONE.
You don't have to request that at all. You have me on killfile,
remember? Or were you lying about that? A Christian like you wouldn't
lie, would you?
Are you so stupid that you don't get the message?
While I make no claims about my own intelligence, I offer the
following link as evidence:
http://www.iqtest.com/view/iqtest/options/990120/9168621219578
Wayne! Are you still selling this old rag?! The link has expired, btw.
I'll vouch for you though, I remember, when the link worked, that Wayne had
a score just a bit higher than mine. 155, wasn't it? 161? All I can attest
to honestly is recalling it was higher than mine tested at the same site and
I received 151. As I said at the time, I'm smart enough to know I'm not
that smart. But relatively speaking, it seems to be a good guide. You
scored roughly 25% higher than Sears.
I never would have thought that he would cling to such weak evidence
as a weapon against me yet that's Wayne for you. Ten years down the
road, he will be tooting the same horn. "Hey, I'm smarter than you!!
The website says so!"
Yet, let's remove the distortion here. The test demonstrates my
honest nature. I posted my actual score even though I could have
easily cheated. I am not so poisoned with pride that I can't accept
defeat. I thought for once, Wayne would respect my efforts. I didn't
expect him to be so immature to keep throwing the score in my face.
If you think I'm stupid, would you care to describe how you did when
you took the same test - twice? How does it feel to have an IQ score
more than 40 points less than someone you consider stupid? Didn't you
learn your lesson the first time you failed miserably?
I don't like you, I think you're full of pus, and all things disgusting,
you are arrogant, a liar, and bloated with pride.
"But I tell you: Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good
to those who hate you, and pray for those who persecute you..."
(Matthew 5:44, and Luke 6:27-28) But that's only Jesus talking - good
Christians like you don't have to pay any attention to His words.
Good Christians are in constant contact with the Holy Spirit, so they can
edit at will.
Everyone knows the Bible was more like guidelines than an actual code.
The funny element
of this experiment is that you prove that atheists are evil.
You can't even tell the difference between "proof" and "evidence", and
your idea of evil is merely anyone or anything that hurts your
feelings.
You have failed completely to prove that atheists are loving, caring
human
beings.
The assertion that everyone in a large class of people necessarily
share a common behavior unrelated to the qualifications of membership
in that group is nothing more than a prejudicial stereotype.
The problem is, though, I've often provided extensive evidence (not
"proof") of my concern and feelings for my wife, son, and daughter, to
which you've objected on the basis that you perceive my life as being
much more satisfying and fulfilling than yours, which does not fit in
with your bigoted and prejudicial view of atheists.
He even calls me friend! (tear) What a guy. So much for prejudice.
Wayne's a great buddy as soon as you start hating God, mocking
Christianity, and worshipping Wayne instead.
.
|
|
|
| User: "MrD" |
|
| Title: Re: The Story of Joni Eareckson Tada Should Make Every Atheist Ashamed of Themselves |
26 Aug 2004 12:52:03 PM |
|
|
"Alvin" <alvinstraight38@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d2ec46.0408260822.58611a35@posting.google.com...
"MrD" <nachobiznez@all.com> wrote in message
news:<cgj5bv$d8t$1@news.netins.net>...
"Wayne Delia" <waynedelia@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a6f49994.0408251418.fa390c1@posting.google.com...
alvinstraight38@hotmail.com (Alvin) wrote in message
news:<d2ec46.0408241031.35c5677b@posting.google.com>...
The voice of reason cries out into Wayne's darkness
If you were referring to yourself, it's more like the voice of
superstition, frustration, profanity, and ignorance.
waynedelia@hotmail.com (Wayne Delia) wrote in message
news:<a6f49994.0408232330.1ee9b0@posting.google.com>...
I think that even as a Christian, you answered my questions very
honestly, and I admired you for your candor. The only difference
was
possibly the degree of comfort with the answers, with vs. without
a
presupposition that God was necessarily all-good. Your realization
that not all atheists are evil and wear black cowboy hats,
combined
with my realization that there are some Christians with extremely
high
levels of personal integrity, contributed to very positive growth
for
both of us. I will never forget your well-intended attempt to
begin
collecting $10K for the Joseph and Lisa Delia College Fund in
exchange
for me becoming a Christian: that took genuine conviction and
initiative, even though the results fell somewhat short. :) None
of
this, however, fits into David Sears's particular prejudices and
bigotry against anyone not sharing his beliefs, so the
significance
will be pretty much lost on him.
Let's speak about your bigotry and prejudice against Christians such
as your inability to say one nice thing about Christianity.
That's contradicted by my first sentence in the paragraph above.
You've really got to pay attention. You're flailing away, and making a
fool of yourself.
You certainly were able to say a few nice things about me while I was a
Christian.
Did he say anything nice about Christianity?
I think he did say that it had some laudable ideals, but that Christians
didn't often practice them.
He certainly gave me the impression that he was not anti-Christianity, but
he was anti-'pretend to follow Christianity while doing whatever you feel
like doing anyway'.
With Wayne it was always more about asking for supporting arguments for
statements made than about tearing down people's beliefs without cause.
He understands hypocrisy and can focus on drawing the attention of the
hypocrite to see their own actions through other people's eyes. That's not
anti-Christianity.
He likes to go and sing hymns in churches, that's not anti-Christianity.
I can say
nice things about black people, and of course, the lab rat didn't
realize that it was all just a test to promote your own hypocrisy.
You didn't say nice things about black people. You started a thread
entitled "Another Black Lets Me Down," taking it as an opportunity to
stereotype and generalize the reluctance of black people to provide
you with free services. When someone else pointed out your bigotry,
you burst into profanity. I believe the perjorative term you used was
"fucker".
The post had no words or anything to do with atheism yet you butted
in
to harass me in a non-atheist newsgroup despite repeated requests to
LEAVE ME ALONE.
You don't have to request that at all. You have me on killfile,
remember? Or were you lying about that? A Christian like you wouldn't
lie, would you?
Are you so stupid that you don't get the message?
While I make no claims about my own intelligence, I offer the
following link as evidence:
http://www.iqtest.com/view/iqtest/options/990120/9168621219578
Wayne! Are you still selling this old rag?! The link has expired, btw.
I'll vouch for you though, I remember, when the link worked, that Wayne
had
a score just a bit higher than mine. 155, wasn't it? 161? All I can
attest
to honestly is recalling it was higher than mine tested at the same site
and
I received 151. As I said at the time, I'm smart enough to know I'm not
that smart. But relatively speaking, it seems to be a good guide. You
scored roughly 25% higher than Sears.
I never would have thought that he would cling to such weak evidence
as a weapon against me yet that's Wayne for you. Ten years down the
road, he will be tooting the same horn. "Hey, I'm smarter than you!!
The website says so!"
Yet, let's remove the distortion here. The test demonstrates my
honest nature. I posted my actual score even though I could have
easily cheated. I am not so poisoned with pride that I can't accept
defeat. I thought for once, Wayne would respect my efforts. I didn't
expect him to be so immature to keep throwing the score in my face.
Dave, here's a instant lesson on Wayne. He doesn't state these things until
someone else brings them up. For example, this case; you asked if he were
so stupid as to not get the message. That is you opening the door for him
to reply about his stupidity. If you hadn't asked if he were stupid, he
wouldn't have posted his link. That's not pride, nor bragging, that's
supporting an argument with facts. That's all he's done.
He'll then use other linked facts for fun, such as you are asking if he's
'so stupid', yet he can show that his score was higher than yours, who you
are implying is stupid. He's using your pride against you and it seems to
upset you. If you hadn't pridefully asked if he were 'so stupid', he
wouldn't have responded with that reply that apparently hurt your feelings.
In other words, don't whine when you make your own mess. If you get called
on something, it's done. Let it go. It's actually fun to be able to banter
back and forth with someone. Wayne is fun. You just can't understand it
because you are too prideful.
If you think I'm stupid, would you care to describe how you did when
you took the same test - twice? How does it feel to have an IQ score
more than 40 points less than someone you consider stupid? Didn't you
learn your lesson the first time you failed miserably?
I don't like you, I think you're full of pus, and all things
disgusting,
you are arrogant, a liar, and bloated with pride.
"But I tell you: Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good
to those who hate you, and pray for those who persecute you..."
(Matthew 5:44, and Luke 6:27-28) But that's only Jesus talking - good
Christians like you don't have to pay any attention to His words.
Good Christians are in constant contact with the Holy Spirit, so they
can
edit at will.
Everyone knows the Bible was more like guidelines than an actual code.
The funny element
of this experiment is that you prove that atheists are evil.
You can't even tell the difference between "proof" and "evidence", and
your idea of evil is merely anyone or anything that hurts your
feelings.
You have failed completely to prove that atheists are loving, caring
human
beings.
The assertion that everyone in a large class of people necessarily
share a common behavior unrelated to the qualifications of membership
in that group is nothing more than a prejudicial stereotype.
The problem is, though, I've often provided extensive evidence (not
"proof") of my concern and feelings for my wife, son, and daughter, to
which you've objected on the basis that you perceive my life as being
much more satisfying and fulfilling than yours, which does not fit in
with your bigoted and prejudicial view of atheists.
He even calls me friend! (tear) What a guy. So much for prejudice.
Wayne's a great buddy as soon as you start hating God, mocking
Christianity, and worshipping Wayne instead.
Wayne was my friend before I left Christianity. You should stop attacking
him. He doesn't deserve your hate.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Wayne Delia" |
|
| Title: Re: The Story of Joni Eareckson Tada Should Make Every Atheist Ashamed of Themselves |
28 Aug 2004 02:08:05 PM |
|
|
(Alvin) wrote in message news:<d2ec46.0408260822.58611a35@posting.google.com>...
"MrD" <nachobiznez@all.com> wrote in message news:<cgj5bv$d8t$1@news.netins.net>...
That's contradicted by my first sentence in the paragraph above.
You've really got to pay attention. You're flailing away, and making a
fool of yourself.
You certainly were able to say a few nice things about me while I was a
Christian.
Did he say anything nice about Christianity?
Of course - apart from the obvious fact that Christianity provides a
psychological outlet for nutcases like you, which might help you avoid
cracking up, climbing the tower, and becoming a "sniper for God" - I'm
also on record as having said that Christianity has inspired some
phenominally fine historic art and classical music, and the Bach Mass
in B Minor is among the finest masterpieces of music ever written
(along with the Randall Thompson Alleluia). Not that any of that
qualifies as valid evidence of the existence of God, of course :)
I can say
nice things about black people, and of course, the lab rat didn't
realize that it was all just a test to promote your own hypocrisy.
You didn't say nice things about black people. You started a thread
entitled "Another Black Lets Me Down," taking it as an opportunity to
stereotype and generalize the reluctance of black people to provide
you with free services. When someone else pointed out your bigotry,
you burst into profanity. I believe the perjorative term you used was
"fucker".
Hello? Do you care to respond to this charge? A Christian who calls
someone else a "fucking idiot"? Oops, never mind - you've got me on
"killfile".
While I make no claims about my own intelligence, I offer the
following link as evidence:
http://www.iqtest.com/view/iqtest/options/990120/9168621219578
Wayne! Are you still selling this old rag?! The link has expired, btw.
I'll vouch for you though, I remember, when the link worked, that Wayne had
a score just a bit higher than mine. 155, wasn't it? 161?
166, but it's not like I have "vastly superior intellect" over you,
like Sears claimed to have over me.
All I can attest
to honestly is recalling it was higher than mine tested at the same site and
I received 151. As I said at the time, I'm smart enough to know I'm not
that smart. But relatively speaking, it seems to be a good guide. You
scored roughly 25% higher than Sears.
That was his idea of demonstrating his "vastly superior intellect."
I never would have thought that he would cling to such weak evidence
as a weapon against me yet that's Wayne for you. Ten years down the
road, he will be tooting the same horn. "Hey, I'm smarter than you!!
The website says so!"
Sears, have you ever noticed that when I reference the website, it's
always in response to one of your sarcastic remarks that you're
smarter than me, or that you think I'm stupid? What you're upset about
is that you have to deal with scoring 42 points less on an IQ test
than someone whom you wish to consider stupid. Even the implication of
that painful fact can't escape you, can it?
Yet, let's remove the distortion here. The test demonstrates my
honest nature.
Distortion? It was an IQ test, silly! It's designed to measure
intelligence, not honesty. You needed that evidence to back up your
claim of your "vastly superior intellect," not your alleged vastly
superior honesty.
I posted my actual score even though I could have
easily cheated. I am not so poisoned with pride that I can't accept
defeat.
That's ridiculous. You've been clobbered in many different arguments,
and getting you to admit defeat is like pulling teeth. Remember the
flap about your plagiarism of an entire article on someone else's
website? The closest you came to admitting defeat was claiming that
the website author was a "brother in Christ," which qualified as being
an acquaintance and therefore excused the plagiarism - even though the
web page author said he had never heard of you.
I thought for once, Wayne would respect my efforts. I didn't
expect him to be so immature to keep throwing the score in my face.
The score is being thrown in your face because you've recanted your
admission of defeat. You've characterized me as "stupid", yet you
can't bear to be reminded of scoring 42 points lower than me on a test
designed to measure non-stupidity, as I've already pointed out:
If you think I'm stupid, would you care to describe how you did when
you took the same test - twice? How does it feel to have an IQ score
more than 40 points less than someone you consider stupid? Didn't you
learn your lesson the first time you failed miserably?
To which you had no response.
I don't like you, I think you're full of pus, and all things disgusting,
you are arrogant, a liar, and bloated with pride.
"But I tell you: Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good
to those who hate you, and pray for those who persecute you..."
(Matthew 5:44, and Luke 6:27-28) But that's only Jesus talking - good
Christians like you don't have to pay any attention to His words.
Good Christians are in constant contact with the Holy Spirit, so they can
edit at will.
Everyone knows the Bible was more like guidelines than an actual code.
<chuckle> Good one! "Rules are for fools to blindly follow, and for
wise men to use as guidance." :)
The assertion that everyone in a large class of people necessarily
share a common behavior unrelated to the qualifications of membership
in that group is nothing more than a prejudicial stereotype.
The problem is, though, I've often provided extensive evidence (not
"proof") of my concern and feelings for my wife, son, and daughter, to
which you've objected on the basis that you perceive my life as being
much more satisfying and fulfilling than yours, which does not fit in
with your bigoted and prejudicial view of atheists.
He even calls me friend! (tear) What a guy. So much for prejudice.
Wayne's a great buddy as soon as you start hating God, mocking
Christianity, and worshipping Wayne instead.
It's quite telling that you choose not to defend against direct
charges that you are disobeying an explicit teaching of Jesus Christ,
using the excuse that Jesus Himself didn't even follow it.
WMD
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Wayne Delia" |
|
| Title: Re: The Story of Joni Eareckson Tada Should Make Every Atheist Ashamed of Themselves |
28 Aug 2004 01:20:26 AM |
|
|
(Alvin) wrote in message news:<d2ec46.0408260757.74ed5bb@posting.google.com>...
The funny element
of this experiment is that you prove that atheists are evil.
You can't even tell the difference between "proof" and "evidence", and
your idea of evil is merely anyone or anything that hurts your
feelings.
Sounds like you are running out of steam.
No, really: "proof" is only achievable in mathematics and pure logic.
For other arguable propositions, only "evidence" can be offered.
You have nothing concrete
to say so you just decide to lie.
Just nothing that you can actually demonstrate.
No, anyone that takes pleasure in
the pain of others is evil, and you did a dance of glee and joy when
you found out about my new medical problems.
Absolutely not. Your eye problems, hearing problems, knee problems,
panic attack problems, testicle problems, and evident brain problems
are a difficult package of burdens. I wouldn't wish them on anyone.
What I do notice, however, is a specific pattern of your behavior, in
that your outbursts of frustration and vitriol on alt.atheism, against
atheists, is usually preceded by a litany of social failures on
alt.support.shyness, or a discussion of your self-diagnosed medical
troubles on sci.med. At the time of your most recent medical problems,
I had correctly predicted an appearance of yours on alt.atheism, and
you didn't let anybody down.
You have failed completely to prove that atheists are loving, caring human
beings.
The assertion that everyone in a large class of people necessarily
share a common behavior unrelated to the qualifications of membership
in that group is nothing more than a prejudicial stereotype.
The problem is, though, I've often provided extensive evidence (not
"proof") of my concern and feelings for my wife, son, and daughter, to
which you've objected on the basis that you perceive my life as being
much more satisfying and fulfilling than yours, which does not fit in
with your bigoted and prejudicial view of atheists.
You constructed an unrealistic portrait of home life,
Nothing about what I've written is unrealistic. Really - my wife is
rather well-endowed, my son is brilliant, and my daughter is adorable.
I love them all very much, and I'm very proud of each of them.
Considering your, uh, social difficulties, though, I'm not surprised
at all that a fairly normal suburban family life would seem
"unrealistic" to you.
and when I
pressed for truth, your deflection was, "oh you just want me to admit
some problem in my life to show that atheists have problems too".
That's exactly correct. The issue was whether a life with Jesus is
more satisfying and fulfilling than the life of an unbeliever. Since
I'm an unbeliever, the affect of Jesus on my life would be irrelevant
in my case, but relevant in yours, since you are the one who believes
in Jesus. Yet your posts in other forums show that you have the same
problems that one would expect that a believer would not have; you
have medical problems despite boasting that Jesus provides medical
miracles to Christians. Your feelings were hurt, and you're looking
for a chance to flail back, but I'm afraid I don't have nearly the set
of problems you describe for yourself.
Wayne the most perfect human being ever, no sickness, weakness, flaws,
no fights with the kids, or wifey, never a problem ever.
It only seems that way, compared to your life.
If you can
not be honest about your own shortcomings then why should anyone
believe that you really have feelings for the family?
First, my own shortcomings would be irrelevant to whether a life with
Jesus is more satisfying and fulfilling that the life of an
unbeliever. If that was legitimate, one would expect the average
believer (you) to have significantly less problems in life than the
average unbeliever (me). Turns out it's not that way at all, is it?
Second, you haven't sold anyone on any dishonesty on my part. Third,
your typical prejudice is bad enough, but to hope that unbelievers
have as dysfunctional a life as you do is really pathetic.
Besides,
according to the black book of athesticology, love is no more than the
sensation felt when eating a chocolate bar.
Am I conversing with a member of the "Triforce" by any chance?
You are this annoying agent of Satan that takes delight and
pleasure in the weakness of Christians.
With this post of yours, to which I am responding, wouldn't it be fair
to characterize you as an annoying agent of God that takes delight and
pleasure in the perceived weakness of atheists? Then absent any
demonstration that
I take no pleasures in the struggles or suffering of other people,
regardless of race or religion.
Really? Then what was all that hoo-hah about you trying to get me to
admit to all sorts of problems? If you hold no interest in struggles
or suffering of other people, then you wouldn't be begging me to admit
to all sorts of struggles and suffering of my own, right?
At least some atheists know
when to quit when you are beating a dead horse.
If you consider Christianity to be a dead horse - or your own pathetic
situation in life to be a dead horse - that's fine.
I consider these discussions to be a dead horse.
Yet you persist in holding to the same old refuted ideas of yours!
You will NEVER agree with me on anything,
Yes, because you seem to be ALWAYS wrong.
and I will never forsake my Christian beliefs for your lies.
You haven't even identified a single lie on my part.
Call a truce, and let's end this whole charade for good.
Let's see. You've gotten your ***** handed to you, and you want me to
agree to a tie score? Pfeh.
Still, you gotta feel bad for the guy.
Is that why you insist of harassing me, and rubbing salt into wounds?
Yea, you're a real sweetheart. Maybe your anger radiates from that
balding scalp of yours.
"But I tell you: Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good
to those who hate you, and pray for those who persecute you..."
(Matthew 5:44, and Luke 6:27-28) But that's only Jesus talking - good
Christians like you don't have to pay any attention to His words.
Avoids the question.
So you really don't follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, yet you
consider yourself a Christian? In your paragraph above, your third
sentence is an example of the behavior you are complsining about in
your first sentence. You lose the right to complain about it if you're
doing it yourself.
Please example why you state that you gotta feel
sorry for me when you insist on harassing me.
I'm sorry, your sentence makes no sense in conversational English.
"Example" is not a verb.
This whole "Triforce" fantasy,
Which you can not prove. The only fantasy is your need for the
Triforce to be a fantasy.
No one else is responsible for proving the validity of your own
fantasies. Any arbitrary proposition is not deemed true until it is
disproved. You've never understood that, and I suspect that's why
you've been sucked in so deep into the fantasies of the Triforce - and
the fantasies of Christianity.
Is that how you live your life?
Well, I don't actually give the "Triforce" too much thought, but I
live my life as if it was a fantasy - without feeling the need to
prove it to anyone. As for Christianity, I am not sucked into the
religious fantasies at all, much less to the depths you've sunk.
Anything is proven fantasy if it has not been proven to be valid?
Of course not. You completely misunderstood the point above, which is
typical. Anything which has not been proven false is not automatically
deemed to be true. You've done that with Christianity, and you're
doing that with the "Triforce", insisting it's true unless others
prove it to be false.
With that logic, I could go to a
tropical island, find this long lost tribe, and describe snow to them.
My word is not valid proof so therefore, snow is proven fantasy.
I think that in that case, given your reputation for playing fast and
loose with logic and truth, anyone would be justified in not accepting
your word as valid evidence (not proof, but "evidence") of anything.
Either, you have to accept that the Triforce experiment is real,
Why? Because it hasn't been disproved? You haven't disproved that you
owe me ten thousand dollars. Why don't you pay up, deadbeat?
or that it is good creative fiction.
As creative fiction, it SUCKS. You've completely lifted the idea from
The Prisoner of Zelda, and combined that with a dubious premise that
you yourself don't exist as anything more than a pointless
psychological experiment put on by the fictional characters.
Of course, you are incapable of
saying anything good about Sears so no one should trust your opinions.
Exactly what do you think you deserve any good words for? You're
stupid, you're bigoted, you're prejudiced, and you're a hypocrite.
Your religious assertions are debunked and ridiculed. If you insist on
begging for compliments, you are very good for comic relief on
alt.atheism.
and his multiple personalities - remember his "Ned Riles" character
using his "maven" ID, who attempted to take your survey on sexual
experience, and failed miserably? His recent bouts of profanity and
frankly abhorrent racial bigotry don't speak very well of him as a
Christian.
You are quite profane yourself.
So what? I'm not a member of a religion which professes to have higher
moral standards that exclude profanity. You, however, claim to be a
Christian, and you swear like a trooper - including posts of yours
written very recently.
So what?
Do you really not see the point? You identify yourself as a Christian,
and one could reasonably expect Christians to avoid profanity. Yet you
attempt to excuse your own profanity by citing the profanity of other
non-Christians in a "tu quoque" logical fallacy.
You are applying a standard of morality to an element that
you do not perceive as immoral.
Exactly. A Christian is not supposed to be immoral, according to the
standards of Christianity. Yet you violate those standards. If you
don't think the Christian standards apply to you, then why bother even
calling yourself a Christian? (It's anyone's guess, I suppose, because
at other times you identify yourself as a member of the "Triforce".)
That's like a murderer being the judge at a homicide trial.
That's so far out in left field it's over the Green Monster and out on
Landsdowne Street. (Hint: Fenway Park, in Boston, has a ballpark with
a left field bordered by a 37-foot high green fence known as the
"Green Monster", behind which is Landsdowne Street, now known as Ted
Williams Way. In short, your analogy here is so fatally flawed, it's
"out in left field".)
You need to clean up your own act
before you have the right to judge the standards of Christianity.
And because of that, you feel you have the right to break those same
standards? You're using the fact that others not held to the same
standards occasionally swear as an excuse for your own profanity, even
though you're held to the standards of Christianity? That's a logical
fallacy known as "tu quoque" (Latin for "you too") in which a
discussion of other people's profanity fails to address the issue of
your own profanity.
Intelligent people need to realize that your comments are just another
trump card.
Appealling to what "intelligent people" should or need to do is a
logical fallacy known as "poisoning the well." But yes, it's obvious
that you've been trumped yet again. You think I should clean up my act
before I can judge the standards of Christianity, but you're using
that as an excuse to violate the standards of Christianity.
Imagine for a second you're Jesus. How would you view David Sears (or
anyone) taking that attitude? I don't see how you can expect Jesus to
be happy with that.
If you were truly honest, you would give me credit for
not breaking these standards for years while you hurled insults and
curse words at me.
No, you invented a few other rough, tough, Texan alter-egos such as
"Ned Riles, aka maven" for the purpose of accommodating your
profanity. You get no credit at all for sock-puppet accounts. Any
moron can do that.
Let's address your own issue of profanity since you were profane long b4 me.
The problem is the issue isn't whether I am profane; it's whether your
profanity fits in with the standards of Christianity. If you think I'm
wrong in my assessment of the Christian standards, then perhaps you
can explain how your profanity fits within those standards.
Besides, no one should trust your warped definition of Christianity.
My operating definition of Christianity is that it is doctrine of the
teachings of the first-century Jesus of Nazareth as described in the
Bible. What do you feel is so warped about that?
Jesus spoke in spiritual truths which you are incapable of
understanding. That's what is warped about it.
What is your understanding of "But I tell you: Love your enemies,
bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for
those who persecute you..." (Matthew 5:44, and Luke 6:27-28) - that
you feel you don't have to take literally?
From your own statements, no one is a true Christian because true
Christians can physically move mountains.
Those aren't my statements; those are from Jesus in Mark 11:22-24.
Anyone with just a mustard's seed of faith would be able to physically
move mountains, according to Jesus. Those who call themselves
Christians, then, who are unable to physically move mountains,
apparently don't have a mustard seed's worth of faith, which is not
very flattering about Christianity - or else Jesus was lying in Mark
11:22-24. If you have any problems with those claims, take them up
with Jesus.
And you would be laughed out of every seminary and church if you asked
a Christian to physically move a mountain.
Lovely - so they think Jesus's teachings in Mark 11:22-24 are
*****, too? Let me ask you: is there ANYONE in Christianity who
takes Jesus's teachings seriously? The "smoking gun" false promise in
Mark 11:22-24 is that anything asked of God in faith and prayer WILL
BE DELIVERED. Why do you insist on tacking on all sorts of disclaimers
and loopholes? I realize the promise of Jesus doesn't actually work,
but you're supposed to be the one defending it, not pointing out how
many Christians would consider it as funny as I do.
Again, your logic falters
because you do not understand spiritual concepts.
Just not in any way you can demonstrate.
You have a thimble's worth of understanding.
Yet you haven't provided any indication of what the proper
understanding should be. Perhaps your thimble isn't exactly
overflowing?
Even as an atheist, I can refer to Sears, and say "There, but for the
grace of God, go I."
And I can Thank God that I'm nothing like you.
Imagine how grateful I am for the same thing! But since it's plainly
clear that my life is much more satisfying and fulfilling than yours
is (if your posts are to be believed), I can reasonably conclude I'm
pretty darn well off.
IT would be a greater leap to believe that your posts are to be
believed.
There's no extraordinary claims in my posts at all. On the other hand,
though, you've tried to explain your own self-contradictions by
claiming that people are making a mistake assuming that what you are
writing is necessarily true - you've said that several times,
including in the post to which I am responding.
However, perhaps God is granting you the perfect life
because the next one will not be so pleasant, and it will last a heck
of a lot longer.
Thomas Paine effectively dismissed that argument in
_The_Age_Of_Reason_ with an analogy to purchasing a crate of fruit.
Suppose a crate is opened and the entire top level is spoiled. A
reasonable reaction would be that the entire consignment is bad, and
this crate should be discarded. But the Christian line of reasoning,
analogous to your argument above, is that the fruit in lower levels
must not only be good, they must be better than good, in order to
redress the injustice of the bad fruit on top. So, the crate is bought
without even inspecting the fruit in the lower levels. That reasoning,
in fact, is a large part of the motivation of the New Testament
authors inventing the concept of hell - eternal punishment of those
who had the temerity not to believe them.
Now, please leave me alone.
I don't have to: you've got me in your "killfile", remember?
Why can't you be a decent human being for once, and leave me alone?
You vent your frustration in life by attacking a group of people who
do not share your beliefs with ridiculously stupid arguments and
invective, such as the provocative title and special-pleading logical
fallacies with which you started this thread. I'm a member of that
group. If you can dish it out but you can't take it, don't even waste
your breath begging your opponents to cease and desist.
Oh wait, that glimmer of hope was put out a long time ago. You will
only respond in your hateful sarcastic fashion, drooling, hoping,
begging that I write back.
I don't give a rat's ***** whether you write back. I do know, however,
that you're getting the message, because you lied about killfiling me.
Then you can get your grand total of 2 buddies to jump in.
Which is a grand total of 2 more than you thought actually responded,
isn't it?
The sharks are swimming and smell blood, but I am not staying in your
waters.
In the alt.atheism waters? You're a 240-pound dork in a bright yellow
inner tube carrying several pails of chum which you are bailing
overboard, and you've got a sign saying "Free Shark Buffet Here."
Enjoy this nugget for what is it worth. You will not get another one
for a loooong time.
Do you realize how loooong it has been since the last time you said
you would not answer my posts? Exactly eleven days. On August 16, you
posted the following (speaking in your "Triforce" identity,
evidently):
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d2ec46.0408160918.1523d17b%40posting.google.com&output=gplain
Recommended action: Continue state of ignoring subject. Dismantle
user names. We have no future use for this subject.
That didn't last very loooong at all.
WMD
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| User: "Wayne Delia" |
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| Title: Re: The Story of Joni Eareckson Tada Should Make Every Atheist Ashamed of Themselves |
27 Aug 2004 05:15:51 PM |
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(Alvin) wrote in message news:<d2ec46.0408260757.74ed5bb@posting.google.com>...
The post had no words or anything to do with atheism yet you butted in
to harass me in a non-atheist newsgroup despite repeated requests to
LEAVE ME ALONE.
You don't have to request that at all. You have me on killfile,
remember? Or were you lying about that? A Christian like you wouldn't
lie, would you?
Ding Ding. Ladies and gentlemen, we have a hypocrite.
And his name is David Sears. But that's been demonstrated on a near
daily basis.
Of course, it was only a test to see if your intelligence could rise above the
obvious.
You've already seen evidence of my intelligence, and you tried the
same IQ test, scoring 42 points below my score. Why did you need
additional evidence? And how is this even remotely connected with your
idea that I am a hypocrite?
Google does not have a killfile. It is a web based
newsreader. I would need to use a newsreader to apply filters.
Then why did you write this invective last December 11th?
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d2ec46.0312111142.95a057f%40posting.google.com&output=gplain
With that said, I have no desire to continue these discussions. I
have more important priorities in life. Consider this to be my last
post to you FOR GOOD. I leave you to drown in your own ignorance and
spittle. Just remember. The hard man cracks easiest.
You are now killfiled. Merry Christmas.
You said you killfiled me. Now you are complaining that I believed
what you said about me being killfiled, which you admit is a lie (or
"a test to see if your intelligence could rise above the obvious."
Obviously, you lied.)
Of course, you claimed that I was really reading the posts, and didn't
have you on killfile.
Turns out I was right, wasn't I? You didn't actually killfile me at
all.
Now, you are claiming that I had you on killfile.
And you are now admitting you didn't, even though you said you did on
Dec. 11, 2003. You lied. Liar, liar, pants on fire. Jesus cries when
you tell lies.
If anything, you demonstrate how pathetic you are.
Your explanation for lying is that *I'm* pathetic? Even if you could
give an example, it would have nothing to do with your dishonesty.
If I post in alt.atheism, yes, I'm fair game. But I didn't.
So your excuse for all your offenses - bigotry, hypocrisy, profanity -
is that it doesn't count, because it was written in some other
newsgroup? Are you serious?
You crossposted me into your little haven.
Sure! It's to show that you talk Real Big about atheism when you don't
have them in your face. Check out the title you selected for this
thread - a completely unrelated story should somehow make atheists
ashamed of themselves. Now, you're complaining when atheists actually
refute your *****.
(Note to any atheists reading
this. I have posted in alt.religion.christian. Wayne is solely
responsible for moving this post into your group. I have no desire to
post in the atheism newsgroup)
That's not the complaint - that you are posting where you shouldn't.
We understand that anything one posts on usenet is fair game for any
response at all. You don't understand that, so that's why you're
complaining bitterly that you're being held accountable for your words
in other newsgroups. "Every Atheist should be ashamed of themselves,"
you write in alt.religion.christian, but you don't have the balls to
say it in alt.atheism. Figures. But in alt.atheism, you're actually
one of the beloved buffoons, when everything you write makes everyone
else scratch their heads and wonder if you really are as ignorant and
bigoted as you present yourself. There's no worries about whether you
post in a.a.
No, you are so desperate to get me to
reply to you that you will butt into my posts in other forums and
insult me constantly.
You deserve the insults, don't you think? You claim to be a Christian,
yet you swear like a trooper, you generalize stereotypes against
African Americans, you profess beliefs in alt.atheism which you don't
actually hold in sci.med. In short, you talk the talk, but you don't
walk the walk.
The analysis is that your gas filled self
esteem just can not tolerate an intelligent Christian who could
actually challenge your porcelain constructed logic, and you rather
eat your tongue than give up.
What intelligent Christian did you have in mind? It's certainly not
you, because you got skunked in an online IQ challenge which you
accepted. The challenges to logic you think you have presented amount
to nothing more than your frustration that nobody's patted you on the
head and acted nice to you (usually, if not always, after you start an
antagonistic thread with a title similar to the title of this thread.)
In fact, you did give up when I bowed
down and admitted you were right.
I "gave up" when you conceded the argument? That's a curious
phenomena: defeat by means of an unquestioned victory.
Then nice good buddy Wayne comes out.
Sure, why not? What was once a problem in discussion of theistic
topics - your failure to understand that you were wrong - was now
resolved.
Hey, sounds like multiple ? personality disorder to me.
Let's take a trip down memory lane. Do you remember writing these
poignant, sensitive words? (I've provided the reference, in case you
memory isn't too good.)
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d2ec46.0303230409.34820537%40posting.google.com&output=gplain
Baloney. Only you would be retarded enough to diagnose a serious
mental illness based on a handful of Usenet posts which may or may not
offer an accurate small window into my life. Without knowing all the
facts, your conclusion is wishful thinking.
Now, do you consider your own diagnosis of a serious mental illness
via usenet as "retarded" and "wishful thinking?" If not, then you lose
the right to complain about a certain behavior if you are exhibiting
the same behavior yourself. Don'tcha just hate it when your own words
jump up and bite you in the *****?
Wayne the loving father, Wayne the Christian basher.
Face it, Sears - I have nothing against Christians in general, just
you in particular, because you're stupid, and you aren't ashamed to
broadcast it.
Do you teach your son
good old fashion values like burning Bibles and spitting on
Christians?
What is it about those offenses that lead you to think they are "good
old fashioned values?" I've never spit on you (I've never spit on
anyone), and have never burned Bibles, nor do I intend on teaching any
of that to my children. They will, however, learn to think critically
and not accept anything on mere assertion - not even from me. All you
can do, then, is hope they turn to Jesus Christ, but the more they
learn about comparative religions and critical analysis of
extraordinary claims, the less they will be likely hooked in to
Christianity or any other bogus religious fantasy.
You need praise. You need worship.
Many Christians feel that everyone's purpose in life is to provide
those elements to their God. Why, then, would your God be considered
perfect, and I would be condemned, for wanting the same thing? Would
you address the same complaint against God if I can show Biblical
verses that God is specifically looking for the same things?
You wipe your own excrement on
those patent papers because you even love your own stink.
By any chance, were you toilet-trained at gunpoint? Any time you get
involved in potty metaphors, you have a tendency to completely melt
down. Actually, I got my third U.S. patent in June of this year, but
this is the first time I've even mentioned it. I haven't even printed
out the .pdf file of the patent, much less have used it as a
replacement for Charmin.
I would
love to see how you perform in a Christian chat room with the odds
stacked against you for a change?
I'd do just as well presenting the same arguments, because the
validity of arguments are measured by their own merits, rather than by
some sort of popularity contest. If you think it does, then why is it
so hard for you to admit your God doesn't exist, judging from the
responses you've gotten from the boys and girls on alt.atheism?
Your feelings are hurt, and you want my feelings to be hurt. I'll take
your warning, though, because I've heard that some of those Christians
can swear a blue streak. One of them even used the phrase "You must be
the fucking loser to be targeted so much" in alt.support.shyness.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d2ec46.0408031446.5baf3926%40posting.google.com&output=gplain
I think the porcelain would start cracking quite easily.
And comprehensive arguments against God's existence would evaporate in
the face of some god-soaked Christbot who says "Doesn't matter, I have
faith in God?" I don't think so, pinhead.
WMD
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| User: "Liz" |
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| Title: Re: The Story of Joni Eareckson Tada Should Make Every Atheist Ashamed of Themselves |
23 Aug 2004 08:00:41 PM |
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On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 08:41:28 -0500, "MrD" <nachobiznez@all.com> in
news message <cga7pa$n3b$1@news.netins.net> wrote:
alvinstraight38@hotmail.com (Alvin) wrote in message
news:<d2ec46.0408160918.1523d17b@posting.google.com>...
Conclusion: WMD (Wayne of Mass Dookie?) does not represent the
typical atheist. Instead, he has demonstrated this vendetta against
God, and his attacks against Sears are really an extension to his deep
rooted hatred of Jesus Christ. There is a 99.99999% probability that
he will response to this post, and deny the conclusion. From the
small historical records, we have extracted a case where he once
converted a Christian to atheism perhaps by wearing the person down
mentally. The motive of WMD would appear to try to break Sears
resolve, and achieve ultimate victory if Sears will just curse God and
become a God hater.
Wow, who did Wayne 'convert' to atheism by wearing them down mentally?
I assume that he was referring to you.
I know my conversations with him when I was a Christian helped me to see the
errors in my way of thinking, but that wasn't Wayne's doing, it was my own.
He merely helped me to see the possibilities for error in my own logic.
Wayne asks simple straight forward questions that get to the heart of the
problem. As a Christian, I was unable to answer them honestly. I chose
honesty over fantasy.
Sears has his own reality.
Liz #658 BAAWA
"I serve God because he gives life, hope, love, and joy.
Even if God truly was a fake, I wouldn't want to stop
serving him." - David Sears
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| User: "MrD" |
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| Title: Re: The Story of Joni Eareckson Tada Should Make Every Atheist Ashamed of Themselves |
23 Aug 2004 09:53:53 PM |
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"Liz" <ehuth1@donotspam.com> wrote in message
news:nr4li09t58tih3vid1a | | | |
