| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Karen Gordon" |
| Date: |
21 Jan 2007 07:57:08 PM |
| Object: |
Re: To my dear Jewish friends |
"pbamvv@worldonline.nl" (pbamvv@worldonline.nl) writes:
Wikepedia:
It is commonly stated that approximately six million [10][11] Jews
were murdered in the Holocaust, though estimates by historians using,
among other sources, records from the Nazi regime itself, range from
five million to seven million.
Clear?
(K): Clear that you post only what you edited. Here it is from Wikipedia
without your editing:
_____________________________________
Millions of other minority members also perished in the Holocaust. About
220,000 Sinti and Roma were murdered (some estimates are as high as
800,000) between a quarter to a half of their European population.
Other groups deemed by the Nazis to be "racially inferior" or "undesirable"
included Poles (6 million killed, of whom 3 million were Christian, and
the rest Jewish), Serbs (estimates vary between 500,000 and 1.2 million
killed, mostly by Croat Ustae), around 500,000 Bosniaks[2], Soviet
military prisoners of war and civilians in occupied territories including
Russians and other East Slavs, the mentally or physically disabled,
homosexuals, Africans, Jehovah's Witnesses, Communists and political
dissidents, trade unionists, Freemasons, Eastern Christians, and Catholic
and Protestant clergy, were also persecuted and killed.
Some scholars do not include the Nazi persecution of all of these groups
in the definition of the Holocaust, rather limiting the Holocaust to the
genocide of the Jews.
___________________________________
(K): The 'holocaust' included many, many more people than Jews. Of course,
you're going to hear the Jews include THEIR numbers with their own, and
then tell the world that '6 million jews died'. The vast majority of them
fled Germany well before the nazis started their purge of many targeted
peoples. Clear?
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act.
-- George Orwell
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: To my dear Jewish friends |
22 Jan 2007 12:49:57 PM |
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Karen Gordon schreef:
"pbamvv@worldonline.nl" (pbamvv@worldonline.nl) writes:
Wikepedia:
It is commonly stated that approximately six million [10][11] Jews
were murdered in the Holocaust, though estimates by historians using,
among other sources, records from the Nazi regime itself, range from
five million to seven million.
Clear?
(K): Clear that you post only what you edited. Here it is from Wikipedia
without your editing:
Sorry I onlt answered the questions
1) Where did the number "6 MILLION" come from? How was this number
derived?
2) Why has this number never deviated; despite the fact that every
combatant nation in the war has adjusted their casualty lists as more
archives have become available?
I suspected by the context he wasn't talking about the number of Polish
victims.
And I didn't edit, I only did one copy and one past.
The fact that the total number of Nazi victims is about twice as high,
doesn't alter the fact, that Jews were their prime target.
_____________________________________
Millions of other minority members also perished in the Holocaust. About
220,000 Sinti and Roma were murdered (some estimates are as high as
800,000) between a quarter to a half of their European population.
Other groups deemed by the Nazis to be "racially inferior" or "undesirable"
included Poles (6 million killed, of whom 3 million were Christian, and
the rest Jewish), Serbs (estimates vary between 500,000 and 1.2 million
killed, mostly by Croat Ustae), around 500,000 Bosniaks[2], Soviet
military prisoners of war and civilians in occupied territories including
Russians and other East Slavs, the mentally or physically disabled,
homosexuals, Africans, Jehovah's Witnesses, Communists and political
dissidents, trade unionists, Freemasons, Eastern Christians, and Catholic
and Protestant clergy, were also persecuted and killed.
Some scholars do not include the Nazi persecution of all of these groups
in the definition of the Holocaust, rather limiting the Holocaust to the
genocide of the Jews.
___________________________________
(K): The 'holocaust' included many, many more people than Jews. Of course,
you're going to hear the Jews include THEIR numbers with their own, and
then tell the world that '6 million jews died'. The vast majority of them
fled Germany well before the nazis started their purge of many targeted
peoples. Clear?
You are mixing two things up here.
In January 1933 there were some 523,000 Jews in Germany,
indeed only about 200.000 of them ended up dead in concentration camps.
So yes, most of the German Jews managed to leave the country alive.
Of course when Hitler overran half of Europe, many of them perished
anyway,
but as I do not have the numbers I won't argue that more fled then were
killed.
But Hitler did not stop at the German border.
Your own quote says clearly this
"Poles (6 million killed, of whom 3 million were Christian, and the
rest Jewish)"
I hope you understand the meaning of your own quote!
From thus quoute alon it is already clear that the total number of
victims is indeed far greater than 6 million.
(doubtlessly Hitler had non-polish people killed also)
another quote
(again 1 copy and 1 past)
"taking into account all minority groups, the total death toll rises
considerably; estimates generally place the total number of Holocaust
victims at 9 to 11 million, though some estimates have been as high as
26 million"
But the number of non-Jews killed does not make the number of Jews
killed any smaller.
Or does it?
Think about it
Peter van Velzen
January 2006
Amstelveen
The Netherlands.
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| User: "AZ Nomad" |
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| Title: Re: To my dear Jewish friends |
24 Jan 2007 04:07:49 PM |
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On 22 Jan 2007 10:49:57 -0800, <> wrote:
Karen Gordon schreef:
" " () writes:
Wikepedia:
It is commonly stated that approximately six million [10][11] Jews
were murdered in the Holocaust, though estimates by historians using,
among other sources, records from the Nazi regime itself, range from
five million to seven million.
Clear?
(K): Clear that you post only what you edited. Here it is from Wikipedia
without your editing:
Sorry I onlt answered the questions
1) Where did the number "6 MILLION" come from? How was this number
derived?
Victims' shoes found in Majdanek after the liberation. . Archiwum Akt Nowych
The estimated number of Jewish fatalities during the Holocaust is
usually given as between 5.1 and 6 million victims. However, despite the
availability of numerous scholarly works and archival sources on the
subject, Holocaust-related figures might never be definitively known.
Furthermore, it is important to keep in mind that the available Holocaust
statistics include a wide margin of error because:
* Not all victims of the Holocaust were registered.
* Countless records that did exist were destroyed by the Nazis, or
lost, burned, or damaged in military actions.
* Records often contain fragmentary information, failing to include, for
example, the victim's ethnic, national, or religious affiliation.
In addition, one should critically examine any statistics presented because:
* Different scholars have used different base dates for computing their
figures, a situation that results in statistical differences due to the
changing national borders of the Holocaust period.
* Figures for victims of a given country usually include not only
citizens but also resident aliens and stateless refugees.
* Scholars have sometimes wrongly equated data about the arrests of
various victims with fatalities, particularly in the case of non-Jewish
victims.
What follows are two different estimates of Jewish deaths by country and the
sources from which those statistics are drawn. Please note that these are
just a sampling of the published Holocaust-related statistics. Additional
sources for estimates of Jewish deaths are provided following these two
examples:
Country Number
Poland up to 3,000,000
USSR over 700,000
Romania 270,000
Czechoslovakia 260,000
Hungary over 180,000
Germany 130,000
Lithuania up to 130,000
Netherlands over 100,000
France 75,000
Latvia 70,000
Yugoslavia 60,000
Greece 60,000
Austria over 50,000
Belgium 24,000
Italy (including Rhodes) 9,000
Estonia over 1,000
Norway under 1,000
Luxembourg under 1,000
Danzig under 1,000
Total 5,100,000
Source: Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews,
3rd ed. (New Haven, CT: Yale University Press, 2003), Vol. 3, p. 1321.
Country Minimum Loss Maximum Loss
Austria 50,000 50,000
Belgium 28,900 28,900
Bohemia and Moravia 78,150 78,150
Bulgaria 0 0
Denmark 60 60
Estonia 1,500 2,000
Finland 7 7
France 77,320 77,320
Germany 134,500 141,500
Greece 60,000 67,000
Hungary 550,000 569,000
Italy 7,680 7,680
Latvia 70,000 71,500
Lithuania 140,000 143,000
Luxembourg 1,950 1,950
Netherlands 100,000 100,000
Norway 762 762
Poland 2,900,000 3,000,000
Romania 271,000 287,000
Slovakia 68,000 71,000
Soviet Union 1,000,000 1,100,000
Yugoslavia 56,200 63,300
Source: Yehuda Bauer, and Robert Rozett, "Estimated Jewish Losses in the
Holocaust," in Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (New York: Macmillan, 1990),
p.1799. See this source for a full explanation of these statistics.
For additional Holocaust statistics, see:
* Benz, Wolfgang, editor. Dimension des Volkermords: Die Zahl der
judischen Opfer des Nationalsozialismus. Munich: Oldenbourg, 1991.
* Fleming, Gerald. Hitler and the Final Solution. Berkeley: University
of California Press, 1984.
* Lestchinsky, Jacob. Crisis, Catastrophe, and Survival: A Jewish
Balance Sheet, 1941-1948. New York: Institute of Jewish Affairs of the World
Jewish Congress, 1948.
* Levin, Nora. The Holocaust: The Destruction of European Jewry,
1933-1945. New York: Schocken, 1973
* Reitlinger, Gerald. The Final Solution, the Attempt to Exterminate the
Jews of Europe, 1939-1945. Northvale, NJ: Jason Aronson, 1987
Cite: http://www1.ushmm.org/research/library/faq/details.php?topic=03#02
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| User: "David Johnston" |
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| Title: Re: To my dear Jewish friends |
22 Jan 2007 09:29:38 PM |
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On 22 Jan 2007 01:57:08 GMT, (Karen Gordon)
wrote:
"pbamvv@worldonline.nl" (pbamvv@worldonline.nl) writes:
Wikepedia:
It is commonly stated that approximately six million [10][11] Jews
were murdered in the Holocaust, though estimates by historians using,
among other sources, records from the Nazi regime itself, range from
five million to seven million.
Clear?
(K): Clear that you post only what you edited. Here it is from Wikipedia
without your editing:
_____________________________________
Millions of other minority members also perished in the Holocaust. About
220,000 Sinti and Roma were murdered (some estimates are as high as
800,000) between a quarter to a half of their European population.
Other groups deemed by the Nazis to be "racially inferior" or "undesirable"
included Poles (6 million killed, of whom 3 million were Christian, and
the rest Jewish), Serbs (estimates vary between 500,000 and 1.2 million
killed, mostly by Croat Ustae), around 500,000 Bosniaks[2], Soviet
military prisoners of war and civilians in occupied territories including
Russians and other East Slavs, the mentally or physically disabled,
homosexuals, Africans, Jehovah's Witnesses, Communists and political
dissidents, trade unionists, Freemasons, Eastern Christians, and Catholic
and Protestant clergy, were also persecuted and killed.
Some scholars do not include the Nazi persecution of all of these groups
in the definition of the Holocaust, rather limiting the Holocaust to the
genocide of the Jews.
___________________________________
(K): The 'holocaust' included many, many more people than Jews. Of course,
you're going to hear the Jews include THEIR numbers with their own, and
then tell the world that '6 million jews died'.
Well if only three million jews died, that makes all the difference.
They had nothing to complain about.
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| User: "John Baker" |
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| Title: Re: To my dear Jewish friends |
21 Jan 2007 08:34:17 PM |
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On 22 Jan 2007 01:57:08 GMT, (Karen Gordon)
wrote:
"pbamvv@worldonline.nl" (pbamvv@worldonline.nl) writes:
Wikepedia:
It is commonly stated that approximately six million [10][11] Jews
were murdered in the Holocaust, though estimates by historians using,
among other sources, records from the Nazi regime itself, range from
five million to seven million.
Clear?
(K): Clear that you post only what you edited. Here it is from Wikipedia
without your editing:
_____________________________________
Millions of other minority members also perished in the Holocaust. About
220,000 Sinti and Roma were murdered (some estimates are as high as
800,000) between a quarter to a half of their European population.
Other groups deemed by the Nazis to be "racially inferior" or "undesirable"
included Poles (6 million killed, of whom 3 million were Christian, and
the rest Jewish), Serbs (estimates vary between 500,000 and 1.2 million
killed, mostly by Croat Ustae), around 500,000 Bosniaks[2], Soviet
military prisoners of war and civilians in occupied territories including
Russians and other East Slavs, the mentally or physically disabled,
homosexuals, Africans, Jehovah's Witnesses, Communists and political
dissidents, trade unionists, Freemasons, Eastern Christians, and Catholic
and Protestant clergy, were also persecuted and killed.
Some scholars do not include the Nazi persecution of all of these groups
in the definition of the Holocaust, rather limiting the Holocaust to the
genocide of the Jews.
___________________________________
(K): The 'holocaust' included many, many more people than Jews. Of course,
you're going to hear the Jews include THEIR numbers with their own, and
then tell the world that '6 million jews died'. The vast majority of them
fled Germany well before the nazis started their purge of many targeted
peoples. Clear?
Historians, and the Germans' own records, disagree with you.
You wouldn't be another of those "vast Jewish conspiracy" loons, by
any chance?
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act.
-- George Orwell
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: To my dear Jewish friends |
22 Jan 2007 08:02:43 AM |
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John Baker wrote:
On 22 Jan 2007 01:57:08 GMT, (Karen Gordon)
wrote:
"pbamvv@worldonline.nl" (pbamvv@worldonline.nl) writes:
Wikepedia:
It is commonly stated that approximately six million [10][11] Jews
were murdered in the Holocaust, though estimates by historians using,
among other sources, records from the Nazi regime itself, range from
five million to seven million.
Clear?
(K): Clear that you post only what you edited. Here it is from Wikipedia
without your editing:
_____________________________________
Millions of other minority members also perished in the Holocaust. About
220,000 Sinti and Roma were murdered (some estimates are as high as
800,000) between a quarter to a half of their European population.
Other groups deemed by the Nazis to be "racially inferior" or "undesirable"
included Poles (6 million killed, of whom 3 million were Christian, and
the rest Jewish), Serbs (estimates vary between 500,000 and 1.2 million
killed, mostly by Croat Ustae), around 500,000 Bosniaks[2], Soviet
military prisoners of war and civilians in occupied territories including
Russians and other East Slavs, the mentally or physically disabled,
homosexuals, Africans, Jehovah's Witnesses, Communists and political
dissidents, trade unionists, Freemasons, Eastern Christians, and Catholic
and Protestant clergy, were also persecuted and killed.
Some scholars do not include the Nazi persecution of all of these groups
in the definition of the Holocaust, rather limiting the Holocaust to the
genocide of the Jews.
___________________________________
(K): The 'holocaust' included many, many more people than Jews. Of course,
you're going to hear the Jews include THEIR numbers with their own, and
then tell the world that '6 million jews died'. The vast majority of them
fled Germany well before the nazis started their purge of many targeted
peoples. Clear?
Historians, and the Germans' own records, disagree with you.
Please tell us more retard....
You wouldn't be another of those "vast Jewish conspiracy" loons, by
any chance?
Here's a clue retard, Jews have had world domination as their ultimate
goal since Biblical times, and they will lie, manipulate and weasel
their
way into power any way they can to get closer to that dream.
They smile when they hear braindead programmed retards like you
chattering
the way they've taught you to chatter.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: To my dear Jewish friends |
22 Jan 2007 12:53:42 PM |
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schreef:
John Baker wrote:
On 22 Jan 2007 01:57:08 GMT, (Karen Gordon)
wrote:
"pbamvv@worldonline.nl" (pbamvv@worldonline.nl) writes:
Wikepedia:
It is commonly stated that approximately six million [10][11] Jews
were murdered in the Holocaust, though estimates by historians using,
among other sources, records from the Nazi regime itself, range from
five million to seven million.
Clear?
(K): Clear that you post only what you edited. Here it is from Wikipedia
without your editing:
_____________________________________
Millions of other minority members also perished in the Holocaust. About
220,000 Sinti and Roma were murdered (some estimates are as high as
800,000) between a quarter to a half of their European population.
Other groups deemed by the Nazis to be "racially inferior" or "undesirable"
included Poles (6 million killed, of whom 3 million were Christian, and
the rest Jewish), Serbs (estimates vary between 500,000 and 1.2 million
killed, mostly by Croat Ustae), around 500,000 Bosniaks[2], Soviet
military prisoners of war and civilians in occupied territories including
Russians and other East Slavs, the mentally or physically disabled,
homosexuals, Africans, Jehovah's Witnesses, Communists and political
dissidents, trade unionists, Freemasons, Eastern Christians, and Catholic
and Protestant clergy, were also persecuted and killed.
Some scholars do not include the Nazi persecution of all of these groups
in the definition of the Holocaust, rather limiting the Holocaust to the
genocide of the Jews.
___________________________________
(K): The 'holocaust' included many, many more people than Jews. Of course,
you're going to hear the Jews include THEIR numbers with their own, and
then tell the world that '6 million jews died'. The vast majority of them
fled Germany well before the nazis started their purge of many targeted
peoples. Clear?
Historians, and the Germans' own records, disagree with you.
Please tell us more retard....
You wouldn't be another of those "vast Jewish conspiracy" loons, by
any chance?
Here's a clue retard, Jews have had world domination as their ultimate
goal since Biblical times, and they will lie, manipulate and weasel
their
way into power any way they can to get closer to that dream.
They smile when they hear braindead programmed retards like you
chattering
the way they've taught you to chatter.
That's the kind of language that people use when they are out of
arguments.
So I guess you are
Better wits next time
Peter van Velzen
January 2007
Amstelveen
The Netherlands
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| User: "On The Highways and Bi-Ways God Built" |
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| Title: Re: To my dear Jewish friends |
24 Jan 2007 04:02:36 PM |
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In article <1169474562.538613.143720@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
floresrikitic@hotmail.com says...
You wouldn't be another of those "vast Jewish conspiracy" loons, by
any chance?
Here's a clue retard, Jews have had world domination as their ultimate
goal since Biblical times, and they will lie, manipulate and weasel
their way into power any way they can to get closer to that dream.
hey, my friend Saul wants to know where is his cut on the Jewish World
Domination thing, he hasn't seen a dime yet, and he's really looking forward to
getting that widescreen Plasma TV before the SuperBowl. was their a mix up at
the post office are far as the check distribution is going? let me know and i'll
let him know.
thanks, really.
Most sincerely,
GodBuilt
p.s. hey, if Jewish World Domination means we never have to see George Bush give
another speech, where do i sign up to assist our potential Jewish Overlords?
--
-----------------------------------------------
"I like to drink, I like to drive, I like to think all of the Jews got out of
the Holocaust alive, my name is Mel, and can't you tell, I like Tequila!"
Denis Leary
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| User: "AZ Nomad" |
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| Title: Re: To my dear Jewish friends |
21 Jan 2007 10:16:36 PM |
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On 22 Jan 2007 01:57:08 GMT, Karen Gordon <ar231@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
"pbamvv@worldonline.nl" (pbamvv@worldonline.nl) writes:
Wikepedia:
It is commonly stated that approximately six million [10][11] Jews
were murdered in the Holocaust, though estimates by historians using,
among other sources, records from the Nazi regime itself, range from
five million to seven million.
Clear?
(K): Clear that you post only what you edited. Here it is from Wikipedia
without your editing:
_____________________________________
Millions of other minority members also perished in the Holocaust. About
220,000 Sinti and Roma were murdered (some estimates are as high as
800,000) between a quarter to a half of their European population.
Other groups deemed by the Nazis to be "racially inferior" or "undesirable"
included Poles (6 million killed, of whom 3 million were Christian, and
the rest Jewish), Serbs (estimates vary between 500,000 and 1.2 million
killed, mostly by Croat Ustae), around 500,000 Bosniaks[2], Soviet
military prisoners of war and civilians in occupied territories including
Russians and other East Slavs, the mentally or physically disabled,
homosexuals, Africans, Jehovah's Witnesses, Communists and political
dissidents, trade unionists, Freemasons, Eastern Christians, and Catholic
and Protestant clergy, were also persecuted and killed.
Some scholars do not include the Nazi persecution of all of these groups
in the definition of the Holocaust, rather limiting the Holocaust to the
genocide of the Jews.
___________________________________
(K): The 'holocaust' included many, many more people than Jews. Of course,
you're going to hear the Jews include THEIR numbers with their own, and
then tell the world that '6 million jews died'. The vast majority of them
fled Germany well before the nazis started their purge of many targeted
peoples. Clear?
That "vast majority" was less than 5%. Most countries slammed their doors
shut.
.
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| User: "MusicFreek" |
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| Title: Re: To my dear Jewish friends |
23 Jan 2007 11:27:39 AM |
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AZ Nomad a =E9crit :
On 22 Jan 2007 01:57:08 GMT, Karen Gordon <ar231@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> w=
rote:
=20
=20
"pbamvv@worldonline.nl" (pbamvv@worldonline.nl) writes:
Wikepedia:
It is commonly stated that approximately six million [10][11] Jews
were murdered in the Holocaust, though estimates by historians using,=
among other sources, records from the Nazi regime itself, range from
five million to seven million.
Clear?
=20
(K): Clear that you post only what you edited. Here it is from Wikipe=
dia
without your editing:
_____________________________________
=20
Millions of other minority members also perished in the Holocaust. Abo=
ut
220,000 Sinti and Roma were murdered (some estimates are as high as
800,000) between a quarter to a half of their European population.=20
=20
Other groups deemed by the Nazis to be "racially inferior" or "undesir=
able"
included Poles (6 million killed, of whom 3 million were Christian, an=
d
the rest Jewish), Serbs (estimates vary between 500,000 and 1.2 millio=
n
killed, mostly by Croat Ustae), around 500,000 Bosniaks[2], Soviet
military prisoners of war and civilians in occupied territories includ=
ing
Russians and other East Slavs, the mentally or physically disabled,
homosexuals, Africans, Jehovah's Witnesses, Communists and political
dissidents, trade unionists, Freemasons, Eastern Christians, and Catho=
lic
and Protestant clergy, were also persecuted and killed.
=20
Some scholars do not include the Nazi persecution of all of these grou=
ps
in the definition of the Holocaust, rather limiting the Holocaust to t=
he
genocide of the Jews.
___________________________________
=20
(K): The 'holocaust' included many, many more people than Jews. Of co=
urse,
you're going to hear the Jews include THEIR numbers with their own, an=
d
then tell the world that '6 million jews died'. The vast majority of =
them
fled Germany well before the nazis started their purge of many targete=
d
peoples. Clear?
=20
That "vast majority" was less than 5%. Most countries slammed their do=
ors
shut.
Not to ignore than in 1939 nazi's entry into Poland was welcomed by the=20
Jewist communities. How to explain that high level ignorance by Polish=20
Jews about a mission the rest of Europe was fully aware of...?
--=20
Join the Internet revolution and start downloading free music, movies=20
and more!
iPod Compatible. Compatible with all MP3 players.
http://areultra.bazaar-dot.com/index.html
* * * * * * * SIGN UP NOW AND RECEIVE $295 IN BONUSES * * * * * * *
Free Bonus #1: ($45 Value!) Copy DVDs to CD with this amazing DVD Copy=20
Software!
Free Bonus #2: ($250+ Value!) Media Player, Antivirus Software, Adware
Removal Software, Pop-up Blocker, Firewall Software, and so much more!
http://areultra.bazaar-dot.com/index.html
.
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| User: "AZ Nomad" |
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| Title: Re: To my dear Jewish friends |
23 Jan 2007 04:08:00 PM |
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On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 12:27:39 -0500, MusicFreek <rdgrs_pl@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Not to ignore than in 1939 nazi's entry into Poland was welcomed by the
Jewist communities. How to explain that high level ignorance by Polish
Jews about a mission the rest of Europe was fully aware of...?
Cite, please?
.
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| User: "MusicFreek" |
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| Title: Re: To my dear Jewish friends |
24 Jan 2007 08:57:23 AM |
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AZ Nomad a =E9crit :
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 12:27:39 -0500, MusicFreek <rdgrs_pl@yahoo.ca> wrot=
e:
Not to ignore than in 1939 nazi's entry into Poland was welcomed by th=
e=20
Jewist communities. How to explain that high level ignorance by Polish=
=20
Jews about a mission the rest of Europe was fully aware of...?
=20
Cite, please?=20
A very simple search on Google brings out millions of hits...
You do not know how to proceed..?
--=20
Join the Internet revolution and start downloading free music, movies=20
and more!
iPod Compatible. Compatible with all MP3 players.
http://areultra.bazaar-dot.com/index.html
* * * * * * * SIGN UP NOW AND RECEIVE $295 IN BONUSES * * * * * * *
Free Bonus #1: ($45 Value!) Copy DVDs to CD with this amazing DVD Copy=20
Software!
Free Bonus #2: ($250+ Value!) Media Player, Antivirus Software, Adware
Removal Software, Pop-up Blocker, Firewall Software, and so much more!
http://areultra.bazaar-dot.com/index.html
.
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| User: "David Johnston" |
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| Title: Re: To my dear Jewish friends |
24 Jan 2007 12:51:14 PM |
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On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:57:23 -0500, MusicFreek <rdgrs_pl@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
AZ Nomad a écrit :
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 12:27:39 -0500, MusicFreek <rdgrs_pl@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Not to ignore than in 1939 nazi's entry into Poland was welcomed by the
Jewist communities. How to explain that high level ignorance by Polish
Jews about a mission the rest of Europe was fully aware of...?
Cite, please?
A very simple search on Google brings out millions of hits...
They always do. Do any of them support the claim?
.
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| User: "PaulRdgrs" |
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| Title: Re: To my dear Jewish friends |
24 Jan 2007 01:19:53 PM |
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David Johnston a =E9crit :
On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:57:23 -0500, MusicFreek <rdgrs_pl@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
=20
AZ Nomad a =E9crit :
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 12:27:39 -0500, MusicFreek <rdgrs_pl@yahoo.ca> wr=
ote:
Not to ignore than in 1939 nazi's entry into Poland was welcomed by =
the=20
Jewist communities. How to explain that high level ignorance by Poli=
sh=20
Jews about a mission the rest of Europe was fully aware of...?
Cite, please?=20
A very simple search on Google brings out millions of hits...
=20
They always do. Do any of them support the claim? =20
YES...
--=20
Join the Internet revolution and start downloading free music, movies=20
and more!
iPod Compatible. Compatible with all MP3 players.
http://areultra.bazaar-dot.com/index.html
* * * * * * * SIGN UP NOW AND RECEIVE $295 IN BONUSES * * * * * * *
Free Bonus #1: ($45 Value!) Copy DVDs to CD with this amazing DVD Copy=20
Software!
Free Bonus #2: ($250+ Value!) Media Player, Antivirus Software, Adware
Removal Software, Pop-up Blocker, Firewall Software, and so much more!
http://areultra.bazaar-dot.com/index.html
.
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| User: "AZ Nomad" |
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| Title: Re: To my dear Jewish friends |
24 Jan 2007 02:23:13 PM |
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On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:19:53 -0500, PaulRdgrs <rdgrs_pl@yahoo.ca> wrote:
David Johnston a écrit :
On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:57:23 -0500, MusicFreek <rdgrs_pl@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
AZ Nomad a écrit :
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 12:27:39 -0500, MusicFreek <rdgrs_pl@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Not to ignore than in 1939 nazi's entry into Poland was welcomed by the
Jewist communities. How to explain that high level ignorance by Polish
Jews about a mission the rest of Europe was fully aware of...?
Cite, please?
A very simple search on Google brings out millions of hits...
They always do. Do any of them support the claim?
YES...
In other words, "no". If you had a single cite to back up your assertion
then you would have posted it.
.
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| User: "cactus" |
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| Title: Re: To my dear Jewish friends |
24 Jan 2007 03:58:25 PM |
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PaulRdgrs wrote:
David Johnston a écrit :
On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:57:23 -0500, MusicFreek <rdgrs_pl@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
AZ Nomad a écrit :
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 12:27:39 -0500, MusicFreek <rdgrs_pl@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
Not to ignore than in 1939 nazi's entry into Poland was welcomed by
the Jewist communities. How to explain that high level ignorance by
Polish Jews about a mission the rest of Europe was fully aware of...?
Cite, please?
A very simple search on Google brings out millions of hits...
They always do. Do any of them support the claim?
YES...
Provide them, then. Put up or shut up
.
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| User: "PaulRdgrs" |
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| Title: Re: To my dear Jewish friends |
25 Jan 2007 06:57:44 AM |
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cactus a =E9crit :
PaulRdgrs wrote:
David Johnston a =E9crit :
On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:57:23 -0500, MusicFreek <rdgrs_pl@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
AZ Nomad a =E9crit :
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 12:27:39 -0500, MusicFreek <rdgrs_pl@yahoo.ca> =
wrote:
Not to ignore than in 1939 nazi's entry into Poland was welcomed=20
by the Jewist communities. How to explain that high level=20
ignorance by Polish Jews about a mission the rest of Europe was=20
fully aware of...?
Cite, please?=20
A very simple search on Google brings out millions of hits...
They always do. Do any of them support the claim? =20
YES...
Provide them, then. Put up or shut up
All of the posturing demonstrate your general ignorance of the period.
You are brainless parrots, force fed with the domineering propaganda.
--=20
Join the Internet revolution and start downloading free music, movies=20
and more!
iPod Compatible. Compatible with all MP3 players.
http://areultra.bazaar-dot.com/index.html
* * * * * * * SIGN UP NOW AND RECEIVE $295 IN BONUSES * * * * * * *
Free Bonus #1: ($45 Value!) Copy DVDs to CD with this amazing DVD Copy=20
Software!
Free Bonus #2: ($250+ Value!) Media Player, Antivirus Software, Adware
Removal Software, Pop-up Blocker, Firewall Software, and so much more!
http://areultra.bazaar-dot.com/index.html
.
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| User: "AZ Nomad" |
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| Title: Re: To my dear Jewish friends |
25 Jan 2007 08:17:13 AM |
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On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 07:57:44 -0500, PaulRdgrs <rdgrs_pl@yahoo.ca> wrote:
All of the posturing demonstrate your general ignorance of the period.
You are brainless parrots, force fed with the domineering propaganda.
Baseless asertions may be enough for you, but thinking rational people like to
verify information before accepting it. Obviously you are of the camp that
think that if you hear a particular piece of crap enough times then it is
somehow factual.
This is your last chance to provide ANY evidence to back up your wild
assertions. Otherwise all you've done so far is proven yourself to be a liar.
I can't believe I've wasted this much time before killfiling you.
Next post of yours will put you there if you blow any more fecal vapor.
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| User: "cactus" |
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| Title: Re: To my dear Jewish friends |
25 Jan 2007 01:32:03 PM |
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PaulRdgrs wrote:
cactus a écrit :
PaulRdgrs wrote:
David Johnston a écrit :
On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:57:23 -0500, MusicFreek <rdgrs_pl@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
AZ Nomad a écrit :
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 12:27:39 -0500, MusicFreek <rdgrs_pl@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
Not to ignore than in 1939 nazi's entry into Poland was welcomed
by the Jewist communities. How to explain that high level
ignorance by Polish Jews about a mission the rest of Europe was
fully aware of...?
Cite, please?
A very simple search on Google brings out millions of hits...
They always do. Do any of them support the claim?
YES...
Provide them, then. Put up or shut up
All of the posturing demonstrate your general ignorance of the period.
You are brainless parrots, force fed with the domineering propaganda.
I have done quite a bit of study of the period. It took me years to
understand why some people escaped and others did not.
At this point I can tell a charlatan from a scholar, and you appear to
be one of those. HINT: a charlatan will engage in ad hominems.
.
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| User: "AZ Nomad" |
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| Title: Re: To my dear Jewish friends |
25 Jan 2007 01:48:47 PM |
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On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 19:32:03 GMT, cactus <bm1@nonespam.com> wrote:
PaulRdgrs wrote:
cactus a écrit :
PaulRdgrs wrote:
David Johnston a écrit :
On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:57:23 -0500, MusicFreek <rdgrs_pl@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
AZ Nomad a écrit :
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 12:27:39 -0500, MusicFreek <rdgrs_pl@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
Not to ignore than in 1939 nazi's entry into Poland was welcomed
by the Jewist communities. How to explain that high level
ignorance by Polish Jews about a mission the rest of Europe was
fully aware of...?
Cite, please?
A very simple search on Google brings out millions of hits...
They always do. Do any of them support the claim?
YES...
Provide them, then. Put up or shut up
All of the posturing demonstrate your general ignorance of the period.
You are brainless parrots, force fed with the domineering propaganda.
I have done quite a bit of study of the period. It took me years to
understand why some people escaped and others did not.
Then you should have no trouble posting a single citation support the
asertion that the jewish poles welcomed the german invasion. So far,
I've asked nicely 5 times now and gotten nothing but hot air and insults.
At this point I can tell a charlatan from a scholar, and you appear to
be one of those. HINT: a charlatan will engage in ad hominems.
Funny. That's exactly what you're doing by replying with insult and nothing
else.
.
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| User: "cactus" |
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| Title: Re: To my dear Jewish friends |
25 Jan 2007 03:09:42 PM |
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AZ Nomad wrote:
On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 19:32:03 GMT, cactus <bm1@nonespam.com> wrote:
PaulRdgrs wrote:
cactus a écrit :
PaulRdgrs wrote:
David Johnston a écrit :
On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:57:23 -0500, MusicFreek <rdgrs_pl@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
AZ Nomad a écrit :
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 12:27:39 -0500, MusicFreek <rdgrs_pl@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
Not to ignore than in 1939 nazi's entry into Poland was welcomed
by the Jewist communities. How to explain that high level
ignorance by Polish Jews about a mission the rest of Europe was
fully aware of...?
Cite, please?
A very simple search on Google brings out millions of hits...
They always do. Do any of them support the claim?
YES...
Provide them, then. Put up or shut up
All of the posturing demonstrate your general ignorance of the period.
You are brainless parrots, force fed with the domineering propaganda.
I have done quite a bit of study of the period. It took me years to
understand why some people escaped and others did not.
Then you should have no trouble posting a single citation support the
asertion that the jewish poles welcomed the german invasion. So far,
I've asked nicely 5 times now and gotten nothing but hot air and insults.
You are confusing me with someone else. I did not make that assertion,
and frankly don't believe it. The Poles were afraid of Germany, which is
why they entered into the alliance with Great Britain, which started the
actual fighting of WWII.
At this point I can tell a charlatan from a scholar, and you appear to
be one of those. HINT: a charlatan will engage in ad hominems.
Funny. That's exactly what you're doing by replying with insult and nothing
else.
I'm sure that you are a nice guy, but your sources are faulty.
.
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| User: "AZ Nomad" |
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| Title: Re: To my dear Jewish friends |
25 Jan 2007 01:50:31 PM |
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On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 19:32:03 GMT, cactus <bm1@nonespam.com> wrote:
PaulRdgrs wrote:
cactus a écrit :
PaulRdgrs wrote:
David Johnston a écrit :
On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:57:23 -0500, MusicFreek <rdgrs_pl@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
AZ Nomad a écrit :
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 12:27:39 -0500, MusicFreek <rdgrs_pl@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
Not to ignore than in 1939 nazi's entry into Poland was welcomed
by the Jewist communities. How to explain that high level
ignorance by Polish Jews about a mission the rest of Europe was
fully aware of...?
Cite, please?
A very simple search on Google brings out millions of hits...
They always do. Do any of them support the claim?
YES...
Provide them, then. Put up or shut up
All of the posturing demonstrate your general ignorance of the period.
You are brainless parrots, force fed with the domineering propaganda.
I have done quite a bit of study of the period. It took me years to
understand why some people escaped and others did not.
At this point I can tell a charlatan from a scholar, and you appear to
be one of those. HINT: a charlatan will engage in ad hominems.
Ooops: sorry: I thought you were paul/musicfreek posting under yet another
pseudonym. Please disregard my last post.
.
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| User: "cactus" |
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| Title: Re: To my dear Jewish friends |
25 Jan 2007 03:10:46 PM |
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AZ Nomad wrote:
On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 19:32:03 GMT, cactus <bm1@nonespam.com> wrote:
PaulRdgrs wrote:
cactus a écrit :
PaulRdgrs wrote:
David Johnston a écrit :
On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:57:23 -0500, MusicFreek <rdgrs_pl@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
AZ Nomad a écrit :
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 12:27:39 -0500, MusicFreek <rdgrs_pl@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
Not to ignore than in 1939 nazi's entry into Poland was welcomed
by the Jewist communities. How to explain that high level
ignorance by Polish Jews about a mission the rest of Europe was
fully aware of...?
Cite, please?
A very simple search on Google brings out millions of hits...
They always do. Do any of them support the claim?
YES...
Provide them, then. Put up or shut up
All of the posturing demonstrate your general ignorance of the period.
You are brainless parrots, force fed with the domineering propaganda.
I have done quite a bit of study of the period. It took me years to
understand why some people escaped and others did not.
At this point I can tell a charlatan from a scholar, and you appear to
be one of those. HINT: a charlatan will engage in ad hominems.
Ooops: sorry: I thought you were paul/musicfreek posting under yet another
pseudonym. Please disregard my last post.
Thank you. Apology accepted. Your courtesy is appreciated, a breath of
fresh air in these fetid NGs.
.
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| User: "AZ Nomad" |
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| Title: Re: To my dear Jewish friends |
24 Jan 2007 09:23:51 AM |
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On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 09:57:23 -0500, MusicFreek <rdgrs_pl@yahoo.ca> wrote:
AZ Nomad a écrit :
On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 12:27:39 -0500, MusicFreek <rdgrs_pl@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Not to ignore than in 1939 nazi's entry into Poland was welcomed by the
Jewist communities. How to explain that high level ignorance by Polish
Jews about a mission the rest of Europe was fully aware of...?
Cite, please?
A very simple search on Google brings out millions of hits...
You do not know how to proceed..?
In other words, you were lying again and can't back up any of your wild
assertions.
I did search google and there are no sites to support your claim other than
those of holocaust deniers and, of course, those sites have nothing to back
up their wild assertions.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: To my dear Jewish friends |
22 Jan 2007 01:02:22 PM |
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AZ Nomad schreef:
On 22 Jan 2007 01:57:08 GMT, Karen Gordon <ar231@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
"pbamvv@worldonline.nl" (pbamvv@worldonline.nl) writes:
Wikepedia:
It is commonly stated that approximately six million [10][11] Jews
were murdered in the Holocaust, though estimates by historians using,
among other sources, records from the Nazi regime itself, range from
five million to seven million.
Clear?
(K): Clear that you post only what you edited. Here it is from Wikipedia
without your editing:
_____________________________________
Millions of other minority members also perished in the Holocaust. About
220,000 Sinti and Roma were murdered (some estimates are as high as
800,000) between a quarter to a half of their European population.
Other groups deemed by the Nazis to be "racially inferior" or "undesirable"
included Poles (6 million killed, of whom 3 million were Christian, and
the rest Jewish), Serbs (estimates vary between 500,000 and 1.2 million
killed, mostly by Croat Ustae), around 500,000 Bosniaks[2], Soviet
military prisoners of war and civilians in occupied territories including
Russians and other East Slavs, the mentally or physically disabled,
homosexuals, Africans, Jehovah's Witnesses, Communists and political
dissidents, trade unionists, Freemasons, Eastern Christians, and Catholic
and Protestant clergy, were also persecuted and killed.
Some scholars do not include the Nazi persecution of all of these groups
in the definition of the Holocaust, rather limiting the Holocaust to the
genocide of the Jews.
___________________________________
(K): The 'holocaust' included many, many more people than Jews. Of course,
you're going to hear the Jews include THEIR numbers with their own, and
then tell the world that '6 million jews died'. The vast majority of them
fled Germany well before the nazis started their purge of many targeted
peoples. Clear?
That "vast majority" was less than 5%. Most countries slammed their doors
shut.
Actually in the case of German Jews her statement is correct.
Of the 523.000 German Jews only 200.000 were taken from Germany to die
in the Camps.
About 19.000 went into hiding.
So about 304.000 managed to leave Germany in one way or another.
I am not sure, the Nazi armies didn't catch up with them during the
Blitz
but they did get out initially.
That doesn't alter the fact that the death-toll amongst jews may have
been as high as 7 million,
and wasn't any smaller then 5 million.
You may also notice that her quote shows that 3 millions jews were
killed from Poland alone.
She doesn't seem to understand the consesuences of that though.
It would seem her arithmatic is only lacking when she wants it too:)
Peter van Velzen
January 2007
Amstelveen
The Netherlands
.
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| User: "Arved Sandstrom" |
|
| Title: Re: To my dear Jewish friends |
26 Jan 2007 05:24:38 PM |
|
|
<pbamvv@worldonline.nl> wrote in message
news:1169492542.398110.123800@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
AZ Nomad schreef:
On 22 Jan 2007 01:57:08 GMT, Karen Gordon <ar231@FreeNet.Carleton.CA>
wrote:
"pbamvv@worldonline.nl" (pbamvv@worldonline.nl) writes:
Wikepedia:
It is commonly stated that approximately six million [10][11] Jews
were murdered in the Holocaust, though estimates by historians using,
among other sources, records from the Nazi regime itself, range from
five million to seven million.
Clear?
(K): Clear that you post only what you edited. Here it is from
Wikipedia
without your editing:
_____________________________________
Millions of other minority members also perished in the Holocaust. About
220,000 Sinti and Roma were murdered (some estimates are as high as
800,000) between a quarter to a half of their European population.
Other groups deemed by the Nazis to be "racially inferior" or
"undesirable"
included Poles (6 million killed, of whom 3 million were Christian, and
the rest Jewish), Serbs (estimates vary between 500,000 and 1.2 million
killed, mostly by Croat Ustae), around 500,000 Bosniaks[2], Soviet
military prisoners of war and civilians in occupied territories
including
Russians and other East Slavs, the mentally or physically disabled,
homosexuals, Africans, Jehovah's Witnesses, Communists and political
dissidents, trade unionists, Freemasons, Eastern Christians, and
Catholic
and Protestant clergy, were also persecuted and killed.
Some scholars do not include the Nazi persecution of all of these groups
in the definition of the Holocaust, rather limiting the Holocaust to the
genocide of the Jews.
___________________________________
(K): The 'holocaust' included many, many more people than Jews. Of
course,
you're going to hear the Jews include THEIR numbers with their own, and
then tell the world that '6 million jews died'. The vast majority of
them
fled Germany well before the nazis started their purge of many targeted
peoples. Clear?
That "vast majority" was less than 5%. Most countries slammed their
doors
shut.
Actually in the case of German Jews her statement is correct.
Of the 523.000 German Jews only 200.000 were taken from Germany to die
in the Camps.
About 19.000 went into hiding.
So about 304.000 managed to leave Germany in one way or another.
I am not sure, the Nazi armies didn't catch up with them during the
Blitz
but they did get out initially.
And the fact that many of the German Jews got out of Germany is not so
surprising. They would have been the first to understand that things were
not right, and were going to get worse. This is the best account I found -
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005468 The article
notes that not all who got out of Germany escaped the Nazis, though.
That doesn't alter the fact that the death-toll amongst jews may have
been as high as 7 million,
and wasn't any smaller then 5 million.
You may also notice that her quote shows that 3 millions jews were
killed from Poland alone.
She doesn't seem to understand the consesuences of that though.
Nor that the Wikipedia article she quoted specifically listed the Jewish
death toll as a subitem, at 5-6 million. All of the other figures, for other
groups, are entirely separate, and bring the overall Holocaust death
estimate (again to be found in the Wikipedia article) to 7-8 million (this
includes groups targeted for genocide).
It would seem her arithmatic is only lacking when she wants it too:)
She's been known to selectively employ statistics, yes. Quite frankly,
though, her Usenet track record indicates a deficit in mathematical skills
overall. I'm reasonably convinced that sometimes when she comes to wrong
conclusions based on statistics, that she honestly thinks she's correct.
AHS
.
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| User: "Ronald More-More Moshki" |
|
| Title: Re: To my dear Jewish friends |
29 Jan 2007 05:27:28 PM |
|
|
On Jan 26, 6:24 pm, "Arved Sandstrom" <asandst...@accesswave.ca>
wrote:
<pba...@worldonline.nl> wrote in messagenews:1169492542.398110.123800@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
AZ Nomad schreef:
On 22 Jan 2007 01:57:08 GMT, Karen Gordon <a...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA>
wrote:
"pba...@worldonline.nl" (pba...@worldonline.nl) writes:
Wikepedia:
It is commonly stated that approximately six million [10][11] Jews
were murdered in the Holocaust, though estimates by historians using,
among other sources, records from the Nazi regime itself, range from
five million to seven million.
Clear?
(K): Clear that you post only what you edited. Here it is from
Wikipedia
without your editing:
_____________________________________
Millions of other minority members also perished in the Holocaust. About
220,000 Sinti and Roma were murdered (some estimates are as high as
800,000) between a quarter to a half of their European population.
Other groups deemed by the Nazis to be "racially inferior" or
"undesirable"
included Poles (6 million killed, of whom 3 million were Christian, and
the rest Jewish), Serbs (estimates vary between 500,000 and 1.2 million
killed, mostly by Croat Ustae), around 500,000 Bosniaks[2], Soviet
military prisoners of war and civilians in occupied territories
including
Russians and other East Slavs, the mentally or physically disabled,
homosexuals, Africans, Jehovah's Witnesses, Communists and political
dissidents, trade unionists, Freemasons, Eastern Christians, and
Catholic
and Protestant clergy, were also persecuted and killed.
Some scholars do not include the Nazi persecution of all of these groups
in the definition of the Holocaust, rather limiting the Holocaust to the
genocide of the Jews.
___________________________________
(K): The 'holocaust' included many, many more people than Jews. Of
course,
you're going to hear the Jews include THEIR numbers with their own, and
then tell the world that '6 million jews died'. The vast majority of
them
fled Germany well before the nazis started their purge of many targeted
peoples. Clear?
That "vast majority" was less than 5%. Most countries slammed their
doors
shut.
Actually in the case of German Jews her statement is correct.
Of the 523.000 German Jews only 200.000 were taken from Germany to die
in the Camps.
About 19.000 went into hiding.
So about 304.000 managed to leave Germany in one way or another.
I am not sure, the Nazi armies didn't catch up with them during the
Blitz
but they did get out initially.And the fact that many of the German Jews got out of Germany is not so
surprising. They would have been the first to understand that things were
not right, and were going to get worse. This is the best account I found -http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005468The article
notes that not all who got out of Germany escaped the Nazis, though.
That doesn't alter the fact that the death-toll amongst jews may have
been as high as 7 million,
and wasn't any smaller then 5 million.
You may also notice that her quote shows that 3 millions jews were
killed from Poland alone.
She doesn't seem to understand the consesuences of that though.Nor that the Wikipedia article she quoted specifically listed the Jewish
death toll as a subitem, at 5-6 million. All of the other figures, for other
groups, are entirely separate, and bring the overall Holocaust death
estimate (again to be found in the Wikipedia article) to 7-8 million (this
includes groups targeted for genocide).
It would seem her arithmatic is only lacking when she wants it too:)She's been known to selectively employ statistics, yes. Quite frankly,
though, her Usenet track record indicates a deficit in mathematical skills
overall. I'm reasonably convinced that sometimes when she comes to wrong
conclusions based on statistics, that she honestly thinks she's correct.
AHS- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -
These lemmings are begging Young to come back.
.
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| User: "cactus" |
|
| Title: Re: To my dear Jewish friends |
22 Jan 2007 01:57:10 PM |
|
|
wrote:
AZ Nomad schreef:
On 22 Jan 2007 01:57:08 GMT, Karen Gordon <ar231@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
" " () writes:
Wikepedia:
It is commonly stated that approximately six million [10][11] Jews
were murdered in the Holocaust, though estimates by historians using,
among other sources, records from the Nazi regime itself, range from
five million to seven million.
Clear?
(K): Clear that you post only what you edited. Here it is from Wikipedia
without your editing:
_____________________________________
Millions of other minority members also perished in the Holocaust. About
220,000 Sinti and Roma were murdered (some estimates are as high as
800,000) between a quarter to a half of their European population.
Other groups deemed by the Nazis to be "racially inferior" or "undesirable"
included Poles (6 million killed, of whom 3 million were Christian, and
the rest Jewish), Serbs (estimates vary between 500,000 and 1.2 million
killed, mostly by Croat Ustae), around 500,000 Bosniaks[2], Soviet
military prisoners of war and civilians in occupied territories including
Russians and other East Slavs, the mentally or physically disabled,
homosexuals, Africans, Jehovah's Witnesses, Communists and political
dissidents, trade unionists, Freemasons, Eastern Christians, and Catholic
and Protestant clergy, were also persecuted and killed.
Some scholars do not include the Nazi persecution of all of these groups
in the definition of the Holocaust, rather limiting the Holocaust to the
genocide of the Jews.
___________________________________
(K): The 'holocaust' included many, many more people than Jews. Of course,
you're going to hear the Jews include THEIR numbers with their own, and
then tell the world that '6 million jews died'. The vast majority of them
fled Germany well before the nazis started their purge of many targeted
peoples. Clear?
That "vast majority" was less than 5%. Most countries slammed their doors
shut.
Actually in the case of German Jews her statement is correct.
Of the 523.000 German Jews only 200.000 were taken from Germany to die
in the Camps.
About 19.000 went into hiding.
So about 304.000 managed to leave Germany in one way or another.
I am not sure, the Nazi armies didn't catch up with them during the
Blitz
but they did get out initially.
Probably not. BTW where did you get those figures, and what is the
census date for the 523,000?
Some did escape, but many simply disappeared, murdered in the country or
fleeing to to other countries where they hid and/or were murdered.
So there may be some miscounting. I would think that there should be at
least some accounting for 304,000 people under these circumstances.
It's also complicated - I know of at least one family that fled East,
only to be killed by the Communists when they tried to escape from them.
That doesn't alter the fact that the death-toll amongst jews may have
been as high as 7 million,
and wasn't any smaller then 5 million.
You may also notice that her quote shows that 3 millions jews were
killed from Poland alone.
She doesn't seem to understand the consesuences of that though.
It would seem her arithmatic is only lacking when she wants it too:)
That's the way these people work. They suspend all rationality, good
sense and morality when it comes to their beliefs.
Regards
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: To my dear Jewish friends |
23 Jan 2007 12:17:50 PM |
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cactus schreef:
pbamvv@worldonline.nl wrote:
AZ Nomad schreef:
On 22 Jan 2007 01:57:08 GMT, Karen Gordon <ar231@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
"pbamvv@worldonline.nl" (pbamvv@worldonline.nl) writes:
Wikepedia:
It is commonly stated that approximately six million [10][11] Jews
were murdered in the Holocaust, though estimates by historians using,
among other sources, records from the Nazi regime itself, range from
five million to seven million.
Clear?
(K): Clear that you post only what you edited. Here it is from Wikipedia
without your editing:
_____________________________________
Millions of other minority members also perished in the Holocaust. About
220,000 Sinti and Roma were murdered (some estimates are as high as
800,000) between a quarter to a half of their European population.
Other groups deemed by the Nazis to be "racially inferior" or "undesirable"
included Poles (6 million killed, of whom 3 million were Christian, and
the rest Jewish), Serbs (estimates vary between 500,000 and 1.2 million
killed, mostly by Croat Ustae), around 500,000 Bosniaks[2], Soviet
military prisoners of war and civilians in occupied territories including
Russians and other East Slavs, the mentally or physically disabled,
homosexuals, Africans, Jehovah's Witnesses, Communists and political
dissidents, trade unionists, Freemasons, Eastern Christians, and Catholic
and Protestant clergy, were also persecuted and killed.
Some scholars do not include the Nazi persecution of all of these groups
in the definition of the Holocaust, rather limiting the Holocaust to the
genocide of the Jews.
___________________________________
(K): The 'holocaust' included many, many more people than Jews. Of course,
you're going to hear the Jews include THEIR numbers with their own, and
then tell the world that '6 million jews died'. The vast majority of them
fled Germany well before the nazis started their purge of many targeted
peoples. Clear?
That "vast majority" was less than 5%. Most countries slammed their doors
shut.
Actually in the case of German Jews her statement is correct.
Of the 523.000 German Jews only 200.000 were taken from Germany to die
in the Camps.
About 19.000 went into hiding.
So about 304.000 managed to leave Germany in one way or another.
I am not sure, the Nazi armies didn't catch up with them during the
Blitz
but they did get out initially.
Probably not. BTW where did you get those figures, and what is the
census date for the 523,000?
Google search
I didn't take the trouble to look exactly
Here's the result of my new search "Jews in Germany 1933"
http://www.ushmm.org/outreach/jger33.htm:
"According to the census of June 1933, the Jewish population of Germany
consisted of about 600,000 people"
however:
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005276
"According to the census of June 16, 1933, the Jewish population of
Germany, including the Saar region (which at that time was still under
the administration of the League of Nations), was approximately 505,000
people out of a total population of 67 million, or somewhat less than
0.75 percent. That number represented a reduction from the estimated
523,000 Jews living in Germany in January 1933; the decrease was due in
part to emigration following the Nazi takeover in January. (An
estimated 37,000 Jews emigrated from Germany during 1933.)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Germany
"As many as half of the 500,000 Jews in Germany in 1933 fled before the
Holocaust."
anf
"It is believed that between 170,000 and 200,000 German Jews were
killed."
and
"approximately 15,000 German Jews survived the concentration camps or
survived by going into hiding"
250.000 + 200.000 + 15.000 = 465.000 sp anpit 40.000 Jews didn't flee,
didn't survive and didn't die:)
I suppose "as many as half" could mean 290,000 plus the 18.000 who fled
in the first half of 1933
makes about 308.000 refugees.
The difference with my original number was that of the 19.000 that went
into hiding, only 15.000 survived,
which means 4.000 of them are incorporated in the (maximum) number of
200.000 who were killed.
If one uses the lowest estimate of the numver killed, (170.000) then
338.000 fled.
but that is much more than "as many as half". So I am still a bit
puzzeled.
I would have thought German book-keeping was better than that!
It seems the Germans in Germany did get away better than those in the
Netherlands:
"Van de circa 140.000 Joden in Nederland werden er circa 101.800
vermoord oftewel 73 procent"
Not something to be proud off
Peter van Velzen
January 2007
Amstelveen
The Netherlands
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