| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Scott M. Kozel" |
| Date: |
01 Aug 2003 04:51:04 PM |
| Object: |
Re: US 491-666 |
"Harry Sachz" <watuziNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:
Monte Castleman wrote:
Why in this society is it acceptable to offend Christians or male
caucasians, but not any other ethnic or religious group?
I haven't seen any discrimination towards xians. Atheists, on the other
hand, are discriminated against more than just about anybody today. They're
one of the few groups that it's ok to discriminate against. Could you cite
some examples of christians being discriminated against?
The American Criminal Liberties Union (ACLU) constantly litigates
against any symbol of Christianity that it can find.
--
Scott M. Kozel Highway and Transportation History Websites
Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com
Philadelphia and Delaware Valley http://www.pennways.com
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| User: "David Jensen" |
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| Title: Re: US 491-666 |
01 Aug 2003 06:44:58 PM |
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In misc.transport.road, "Scott M. Kozel" <kozelsm@attbi.com> wrote in
<3F2AE0C8.40E9D4B5@attbi.com>:
"Harry Sachz" <watuziNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:
Monte Castleman wrote:
Why in this society is it acceptable to offend Christians or male
caucasians, but not any other ethnic or religious group?
I haven't seen any discrimination towards xians. Atheists, on the other
hand, are discriminated against more than just about anybody today. They're
one of the few groups that it's ok to discriminate against. Could you cite
some examples of christians being discriminated against?
The American Criminal Liberties Union (ACLU) constantly litigates
against any symbol of Christianity that it can find.
There are crosses on most churches. I've never seen the ACLU sue a
church for having a cross on it.
The fact that the ACLU is committed to protecting our civil liberties is
a good thing, even for the people who don't care today if their civil
liberties are stolen by the government.
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| User: "Scott M. Kozel" |
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| Title: Re: US 491-666 |
01 Aug 2003 06:55:21 PM |
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David Jensen <david@dajensen-family.com> wrote:
"Scott M. Kozel" <kozelsm@attbi.com> wrote
"Harry Sachz" <watuziNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:
Monte Castleman wrote:
Why in this society is it acceptable to offend Christians or male
caucasians, but not any other ethnic or religious group?
I haven't seen any discrimination towards xians. Atheists, on the other
hand, are discriminated against more than just about anybody today. They're
one of the few groups that it's ok to discriminate against. Could you cite
some examples of christians being discriminated against?
The American Criminal Liberties Union (ACLU) constantly litigates
against any symbol of Christianity that it can find.
There are crosses on most churches. I've never seen the ACLU sue a
church for having a cross on it.
If a Christian symbol is on public property, ACLU will target it; any
other religion with a symbol on public property, ACLU will ignore it.
That is hypocrisy.
--
Scott M. Kozel Highway and Transportation History Websites
Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com
Philadelphia and Delaware Valley http://www.pennways.com
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| User: "David Jensen" |
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| Title: Re: US 491-666 |
01 Aug 2003 08:07:49 PM |
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In misc.transport.road, "Scott M. Kozel" <kozelsm@attbi.com> wrote in
<3F2AFDE9.E1FDD162@attbi.com>:
David Jensen <david@dajensen-family.com> wrote:
"Scott M. Kozel" <kozelsm@attbi.com> wrote
"Harry Sachz" <watuziNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:
Monte Castleman wrote:
Why in this society is it acceptable to offend Christians or male
caucasians, but not any other ethnic or religious group?
I haven't seen any discrimination towards xians. Atheists, on the other
hand, are discriminated against more than just about anybody today. They're
one of the few groups that it's ok to discriminate against. Could you cite
some examples of christians being discriminated against?
The American Criminal Liberties Union (ACLU) constantly litigates
against any symbol of Christianity that it can find.
There are crosses on most churches. I've never seen the ACLU sue a
church for having a cross on it.
If a Christian symbol is on public property, ACLU will target it; any
other religion with a symbol on public property, ACLU will ignore it.
That is hypocrisy.
Really? Which religious symbol has the ACLU tolerated on public property
when an equivalent Christian symbol was attacked?
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| User: "Craig Pennington" |
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| Title: Re: US 491-666 |
01 Aug 2003 08:44:28 PM |
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Scott M. Kozel <kozelsm@attbi.com> wrote:
[snip]
If a Christian symbol is on public property, ACLU will target it; any
other religion with a symbol on public property, ACLU will ignore it.
That is hypocrisy.
Name one instance where there was a non-Christian symbol on
government property that a sane human being could have
interpreted as promotion that the ACLU could have sued for
and didn't.
And as for one class of Christian symbols on government
property not targetted by the ACLU, see the Arlington
Cemetary. There are plenty of Christian symbols there that
the ACLU finds perfectly acceptable.
Cheers,
Craig
--
Corollary to Clarke's Third Law:
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently
advanced.
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| User: "Kenneth Doyle" |
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| Title: Re: US 491-666 |
01 Aug 2003 11:34:44 PM |
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"Scott M. Kozel" <kozelsm@attbi.com> wrote in
news:3F2B3BD3.8CDF8DB5@attbi.com:
By the way, how many of those soldiers do you think prayed
to atheism as they were dying on the battlefield? Hmmmm?
What difference does it make what someone might imagine the
number to be? Do you find imaginary statistics convincing? If
you think you have an actual number, why don't you say so?
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| User: "Scott M. Kozel" |
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| Title: Re: US 491-666 |
01 Aug 2003 11:45:41 PM |
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Kenneth Doyle <nobody@notmail.com> wrote:
"Scott M. Kozel" <kozelsm@attbi.com> wrote:
By the way, how many of those soldiers do you think prayed
to atheism as they were dying on the battlefield? Hmmmm?
What difference does it make what someone might imagine the
number to be? Do you find imaginary statistics convincing? If
you think you have an actual number, why don't you say so?
It is a rhetorical question... do you think that -anybody- prayed to
atheism as they were dying?
--
Scott M. Kozel Highway and Transportation History Websites
Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com
Philadelphia and Delaware Valley http://www.pennways.com
.
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| User: "Kenneth Doyle" |
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| Title: Re: US 491-666 |
01 Aug 2003 11:54:07 PM |
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"Scott M. Kozel" <kozelsm@attbi.com> wrote in
news:3F2B41F5.BC0B92CE@attbi.com:
Kenneth Doyle <nobody@notmail.com> wrote:
"Scott M. Kozel" <kozelsm@attbi.com> wrote:
By the way, how many of those soldiers do you think
prayed to atheism as they were dying on the battlefield?
Hmmmm?
What difference does it make what someone might imagine
the number to be? Do you find imaginary statistics
convincing? If you think you have an actual number, why
don't you say so?
It is a rhetorical question... do you think that -anybody-
prayed to atheism as they were dying?
OK, my mistake. I misunderstood you to mean that you were one
of those theists who thinks that atheism is a religion. Sorry
about that.
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| User: "Apostate" |
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| Title: Re: US 491-666 |
02 Aug 2003 02:24:05 AM |
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On Sat, 02 Aug 2003 00:45:41 -0400, "Scott M. Kozel" <kozelsm@attbi.com> wrote in alt.atheism:
Kenneth Doyle <nobody@notmail.com> wrote:
"Scott M. Kozel" <kozelsm@attbi.com> wrote:
By the way, how many of those soldiers do you think prayed
to atheism as they were dying on the battlefield? Hmmmm?
What difference does it make what someone might imagine the
number to be? Do you find imaginary statistics convincing? If
you think you have an actual number, why don't you say so?
It is a rhetorical question... do you think that -anybody- prayed to
atheism as they were dying?
Where do these people go to school?
No one has ever prayed to theism, either.
Before you start making sassy snide remarks, you ought to learn the terms
well enough to understand the symmetry: theism | a-theism.
(Not, as implied in your mal mot, YHWH | atheism.)
And atheism is simply the relief from, or absence of in the first place,
the particular bit of human drama-queen inclination that makes people
make up an afterlife, and an invisible friend who'll save us from what we
can see happens to animals when they die. If you've always been expecting
to die, and have given up believing or never believed in afterlife, there's no
cause to appeal to SpiderMan or the Hulk for assistance at the end.
--
/Apostate
atheist #1931 I've found it!
BAAWA Knife AND SMASHer
EAC Supernumerary Deputy Director, Department of Redundancy Department
plonked by vernon; NEW! IMPROVED! plonked by Lani_girl
I doubt, therefore I might be.
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| User: "David Jensen" |
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| Title: Re: US 491-666 |
01 Aug 2003 11:53:45 PM |
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In misc.transport.road, "Scott M. Kozel" <kozelsm@attbi.com> wrote in
<3F2B3BD3.8CDF8DB5@attbi.com>:
Craig Pennington <cpenning@milo.org> wrote:
And as for one class of Christian symbols on government
property not targetted by the ACLU, see the Arlington
Cemetary. There are plenty of Christian symbols there that
the ACLU finds perfectly acceptable.
Give them a little more time ... the ACLU -will- target Arlington
Cemetery's crosses and stars of David, for removal.
I doubt it, but even if they did, the courts decide, not the ACLU.
By the way, how many of those soldiers do you think prayed to atheism as
they were dying on the battlefield? Hmmmm?
What a silly comment.
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| User: "Lord Calvert" |
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| Title: Re: US 491-666 |
02 Aug 2003 12:11:04 AM |
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By the way, how many of those soldiers do you think prayed to atheism as
they were dying on the battlefield? Hmmmm?
What a silly comment.
"The sermon was based on what he claimed was a well-known fact, that there were
no Atheists in foxholes. I asked Jack what he thought of the sermon afterwards,
and he said, 'There's a Chaplain who never visited the front.' " - Kurt
Vonnegut Jr. (from the novel Hocus Pocus), WW2 combat veteran (106th Infantry
Division), Prisoner of War, Survivor of the Dresden firebombing which killed
130,000 civilians...and atheist.
Why do I get the impression that the only uniform that the original poster has
even put on is one where he gets to ask, "Do you want fries with that?"
Rich Goranson, Amherst, NY, USA (aa#MCMXCIX, a-vet#1)
EAC Ill-Legal Dept. "Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here"
"My country, right or wrong; to be defended when right and righted when wrong."
- Thomas Jefferson
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| User: "Doug Semler" |
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| Title: Re: US 491-666 |
07 Aug 2003 08:45:53 AM |
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At some point in the past, David Jensen <david@dajensen-family.com>
slavered, and posted this:
In misc.transport.road, "Scott M. Kozel" <kozelsm@attbi.com> wrote in
<3F2B3BD3.8CDF8DB5@attbi.com>:
Give them a little more time ... the ACLU -will- target Arlington
Cemetery's crosses and stars of David, for removal.
I doubt it, but even if they did, the courts decide, not the ACLU.
Aren't public cemetery plots considered "owned" by the person who is
interred in said plot?
--
Doug Semler
http://home.wideopenwest.com/~doug_semler
a.a. #705, BAAWA. EAC Guardian of the Horn of the IPU (pbuhh).
I hate spam, standard email address munging applied.
42
DNRC o-
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: US 491-666 |
03 Aug 2003 08:54:54 PM |
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On Sat, 02 Aug 2003 00:19:31 -0400, "Scott M. Kozel"
<kozelsm@attbi.com> posted in alt.atheism:
By the way, how many of those soldiers do you think prayed to atheism as
they were dying on the battlefield? Hmmmm?
The old "no atheists in foxholes" *****? That's been addressed so
many times that I'll only dignify it by saying that I never once
thought of any god during the entire length of my military service,
unless the subject was raised by some theist.
--
"I see only with deep regret that God punishes so many of His children for their
numerous stupidities, for which only He Himself can be held responsible; in my opinion,
only His nonexistence could excuse Him."
-A. Einstein (Letter to Edgar Meyer, Jan. 2, 1915)
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Craig Pennington" |
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| Title: Re: US 491-666 |
02 Aug 2003 01:19:21 AM |
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Scott M. Kozel <kozelsm@attbi.com> wrote:
Craig Pennington <cpenning@milo.org> wrote:
And as for one class of Christian symbols on government
property not targetted by the ACLU, see the Arlington
Cemetary. There are plenty of Christian symbols there that
the ACLU finds perfectly acceptable.
Give them a little more time ... the ACLU -will- target Arlington
Cemetery's crosses and stars of David, for removal.
Liar. <http://archive.aclu.org/news/1999/n032299c.html>
By the way, how many of those soldiers do you think prayed to atheism as
they were dying on the battlefield? Hmmmm?
Why would anyone "Pray to atheism?" What an utterly idiotic thing to ask.
But I know plenty of atheists drawing combat pay right now, if that's
what you're asking. Not that it matters, because the rights of
conscience are not an atheist/theist question. I believe that the
Americans United for the Seperation of Church & State was founded by
Baptists.
Cheers,
Craig
--
Corollary to Clarke's Third Law:
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently
advanced.
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| User: "Harry Sachz" |
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| Title: Re: US 491-666 |
02 Aug 2003 05:56:29 AM |
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Scott M. Kozel wrote:
Craig Pennington <cpenning@milo.org> wrote:
And as for one class of Christian symbols on government
property not targetted by the ACLU, see the Arlington
Cemetary. There are plenty of Christian symbols there that
the ACLU finds perfectly acceptable.
Give them a little more time ... the ACLU -will- target Arlington
Cemetery's crosses and stars of David, for removal.
By the way, how many of those soldiers do you think prayed to atheism
as they were dying on the battlefield? Hmmmm?
C'mon Kozel, you can do better than "No Atheists In Foxholes"...
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: US 491-666 |
02 Aug 2003 07:50:46 AM |
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On Sat, 2 Aug 2003 05:56:29 -0500, "Harry Sachz"
<watuziNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:
Scott M. Kozel wrote:
Craig Pennington <cpenning@milo.org> wrote:
And as for one class of Christian symbols on government
property not targetted by the ACLU, see the Arlington
Cemetary. There are plenty of Christian symbols there that
the ACLU finds perfectly acceptable.
Give them a little more time ... the ACLU -will- target Arlington
Cemetery's crosses and stars of David, for removal.
By the way, how many of those soldiers do you think prayed to atheism
as they were dying on the battlefield? Hmmmm?
C'mon Kozel, you can do better than "No Atheists In Foxholes"...
At which point Kozel demonstrates just how stupid he is - after all,
would he suddenly pray to the Hindu pantheon to avoid being
reincarnated as a maggot? If not, why assume anybody totally outside
his delusions would suddenly pray to his exact equivalent? It's not
rocket science - yet far too many morons-for-god miss this remarkably
obvious point.
My late father flew Lancaster bombers in the RAF over Germany during
WW2. An extremely hadazdous role with an incredible loss rate. He
enlisted as an atheist and remained as one. He told how even the
religious were too busy trying to survive to pray, and how those that
wasted their time doing it didn't.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: US 491-666 |
03 Aug 2003 08:58:07 PM |
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On Sat, 02 Aug 2003 12:50:46 GMT, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> posted in alt.atheism:
My late father flew Lancaster bombers in the RAF over Germany during
WW2. An extremely hadazdous role with an incredible loss rate. He
enlisted as an atheist and remained as one. He told how even the
religious were too busy trying to survive to pray, and how those that
wasted their time doing it didn't.
Once again proving that nothing fails like religion.
--
"The doctrine that the earth is neither the center of the universe nor immovable, but
moves even with a daily rotation, is absurd, and both philosophically and theologically
false, and at the least an error of faith."
- Catholic Church's decision against Galileo Galilei
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: US 491-666 |
01 Aug 2003 06:06:54 PM |
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On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 17:51:04 -0400, "Scott M. Kozel"
<kozelsm@attbi.com> wrote:
"Harry Sachz" <watuziNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:
Monte Castleman wrote:
Why in this society is it acceptable to offend Christians or male
caucasians, but not any other ethnic or religious group?
I haven't seen any discrimination towards xians. Atheists, on the other
hand, are discriminated against more than just about anybody today. They're
one of the few groups that it's ok to discriminate against. Could you cite
some examples of christians being discriminated against?
The American Criminal Liberties Union (ACLU) constantly litigates
against any symbol of Christianity that it can find.
Do you honestly imagine that falsehoods like this somehow convine
anybody of the "truth" of your case?
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| User: "Scott M. Kozel" |
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| Title: Re: US 491-666 |
01 Aug 2003 06:27:04 PM |
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Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote:
"Scott M. Kozel" <kozelsm@attbi.com> wrote:
"Harry Sachz" <watuziNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:
Monte Castleman wrote:
Why in this society is it acceptable to offend Christians or male
caucasians, but not any other ethnic or religious group?
I haven't seen any discrimination towards xians. Atheists, on the other
hand, are discriminated against more than just about anybody today. They're
one of the few groups that it's ok to discriminate against. Could you cite
some examples of christians being discriminated against?
The American Criminal Liberties Union (ACLU) constantly litigates
against any symbol of Christianity that it can find.
Do you honestly imagine that falsehoods like this somehow convine
anybody of the "truth" of your case?
It's true. Just read the newspapers on a regular basis. They even went
after a cross on a monument under 70 feet of water 10 miles off of Key
West. They are red diaper doper babies.
The above claim that Christians don't get discriminated against, has
been refuted.
--
Scott M. Kozel Highway and Transportation History Websites
Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com
Philadelphia and Delaware Valley http://www.pennways.com
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| User: "Craig Pennington" |
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| Title: Re: US 491-666 |
01 Aug 2003 08:52:54 PM |
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Scott M. Kozel <kozelsm@attbi.com> wrote:
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote:
"Scott M. Kozel" <kozelsm@attbi.com> wrote:
[snip]
The American Criminal Liberties Union (ACLU) constantly litigates
against any symbol of Christianity that it can find.
Do you honestly imagine that falsehoods like this somehow convine
anybody of the "truth" of your case?
It's true.
It's a lie.
Just read the newspapers on a regular basis.
Just find any private church in the US, recognize that they're full
of Christian symbols. Notice the absence of ACLU lawsuits.
They even went
after a cross on a monument under 70 feet of water 10 miles off of Key
West. They are red diaper doper babies.
Please provide one example of a non-Christian religious symbol
on government propert that could have been considered a promotion
of religion in the same sense and you'd have a point.
The above claim that Christians don't get discriminated against, has
been refuted.
The fact that you are a liar or delusional has been demonstrated.
--
Corollary to Clarke's Third Law:
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently
advanced.
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| User: "Scott M. Kozel" |
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| Title: Re: US 491-666 |
01 Aug 2003 08:52:28 PM |
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Craig Pennington <cpenning@milo.org> wrote:
Scott M. Kozel <kozelsm@attbi.com> wrote:
They even went
after a cross on a monument under 70 feet of water 10 miles off of Key
West. They are red diaper doper babies.
Please provide one example of a non-Christian religious symbol
on government propert that could have been considered a promotion
of religion in the same sense and you'd have a point.
Public schools promote other non-Christian religions all the time.
Here is one example --
"The following is a letter written by the ACLJ to the Governor of
California, Attorney General of California, and the State Superintendent
of Public Instruction regarding the mandatory Islam course in public
schools:"
January 18, 2002
Dear Governor Davis and General Lockyer:
(Excerpt)
"We understand that the Byron Union Elementary School District ("BUESD")
has instituted a mandatory course for seventh grade History students
which contains an elaborate section teaching the history and traditions
of the Islam religion. The particular methods that BUESD and its agents
have implemented in teaching this course section have led to a number of
complaints by parents regarding violations of their and their children's
First Amendment freedoms. By this letter, the American Center for Law
and Justice ("ACLJ") would like to bring to your attention that the
Islam course section discussed herein contains materials and
requirements that unconstitutionally force students to engage in speech
and practices which conflict with their religion in violation of the
students' free speech and free exercise rights, as well as their
parents' right to direct the education and upbringing of their
children. Additionally, we question two specific exercises employed by
the BUESD and its agents as violating the First Amendment's
Establishment Clause".
http://www.aclj.org/printable.asp?page=/infoletters/islam_in_school2.asp
They have lots of similar lawsuit summaries on their website.
--
Scott M. Kozel Highway and Transportation History Websites
Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com
Philadelphia and Delaware Valley http://www.pennways.com
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: US 491-666 |
03 Aug 2003 09:03:20 PM |
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On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 21:52:28 -0400, "Scott M. Kozel"
<kozelsm@attbi.com> posted in alt.atheism:
"We understand that the Byron Union Elementary School District ("BUESD")
has instituted a mandatory course for seventh grade History students
which contains an elaborate section teaching the history and traditions
of the Islam religion.
So you don't understand the difference between teaching about a
religion and preaching it.
Any valid examples?
--
Zymurgist # 2
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: US 491-666 |
02 Aug 2003 05:07:26 AM |
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On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 21:52:28 -0400, "Scott M. Kozel"
<kozelsm@attbi.com> wrote:
Craig Pennington <cpenning@milo.org> wrote:
Scott M. Kozel <kozelsm@attbi.com> wrote:
They even went
after a cross on a monument under 70 feet of water 10 miles off of Key
West. They are red diaper doper babies.
Please provide one example of a non-Christian religious symbol
on government propert that could have been considered a promotion
of religion in the same sense and you'd have a point.
Public schools promote other non-Christian religions all the time.
Here is one example --
Then you have your own meaning for "promote".
Do you honestly not understand the difference between teaching a
religion as something you want the captive audience to believe to and
teaching its history and traditions AS SOMETHING SOMEBODY ELSE
BELIEVES?
The dishonesty is in calling them BOTH "teaching Christianity" and
"teaching Islam" as the though what was being done in each case were
the same thing.
It's one of the dishonest tricks used by the Christian extremists who
would screazm all sorts of objections if Christianity were taught as a
cultural phenomenon rather than imagined facts they insist on.
So they lie about how both are taught through deliberate equivocation.
"The following is a letter written by the ACLJ to the Governor of
California, Attorney General of California, and the State Superintendent
of Public Instruction regarding the mandatory Islam course in public
schools:"
January 18, 2002
Dear Governor Davis and General Lockyer:
(Excerpt)
"We understand that the Byron Union Elementary School District ("BUESD")
has instituted a mandatory course for seventh grade History students
which contains an elaborate section teaching the history and traditions
of the Islam religion. The particular methods that BUESD and its agents
have implemented in teaching this course section have led to a number of
complaints by parents regarding violations of their and their children's
First Amendment freedoms. By this letter, the American Center for Law
and Justice ("ACLJ") would like to bring to your attention that the
Islam course section discussed herein contains materials and
requirements that unconstitutionally force students to engage in speech
and practices which conflict with their religion in violation of the
students' free speech and free exercise rights, as well as their
parents' right to direct the education and upbringing of their
children. Additionally, we question two specific exercises employed by
the BUESD and its agents as violating the First Amendment's
Establishment Clause".
http://www.aclj.org/printable.asp?page=/infoletters/islam_in_school2.asp
They have lots of similar lawsuit summaries on their website.
And they're being just as dishonest as you are.
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| User: "Scott M. Kozel" |
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| Title: Re: US 491-666 |
02 Aug 2003 09:05:33 AM |
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Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote:
"Scott M. Kozel" <kozelsm@attbi.com> wrote:
"We understand that the Byron Union Elementary School District ("BUESD")
has instituted a mandatory course for seventh grade History students
which contains an elaborate section teaching the history and traditions
of the Islam religion. The particular methods that BUESD and its agents
have implemented in teaching this course section have led to a number of
complaints by parents regarding violations of their and their children's
First Amendment freedoms. By this letter, the American Center for Law
and Justice ("ACLJ") would like to bring to your attention that the
Islam course section discussed herein contains materials and
requirements that unconstitutionally force students to engage in speech
and practices which conflict with their religion in violation of the
students' free speech and free exercise rights, as well as their
parents' right to direct the education and upbringing of their
children. Additionally, we question two specific exercises employed by
the BUESD and its agents as violating the First Amendment's
Establishment Clause".
http://www.aclj.org/printable.asp?page=/infoletters/islam_in_school2.asp
They have lots of similar lawsuit summaries on their website.
And they're being just as dishonest as you are.
I see that you can't discuss without engaging in massive amounts of
personal abuse. That doesn't say much for your ideology or the quality
of your arguments.
The American Center for Law and Justice (ACLJ) is a dedicated to
supporting personal liberties. The ACLJ is also a serious and
determined opponent to the frivolous lawsuits of the ACLU.
--
Scott M. Kozel Highway and Transportation History Websites
Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com
Philadelphia and Delaware Valley http://www.pennways.com
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: US 491-666 |
03 Aug 2003 09:09:43 PM |
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On Sat, 02 Aug 2003 10:05:33 -0400, "Scott M. Kozel"
<kozelsm@attbi.com> posted in alt.atheism:
The American Center for Law and Justice (ACLJ) is a dedicated to
supporting personal liberties
as long as "personal liberties" is as defined by Christians who want
Christianity to be accepted as fact. You DO NOT have the "personal
liberty" to proselytize in a public school, so they can't "support"
that "liberty".
--
"The doctrine that the earth is neither the center of the universe nor immovable, but
moves even with a daily rotation, is absurd, and both philosophically and theologically
false, and at the least an error of faith."
- Catholic Church's decision against Galileo Galilei
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: US 491-666 |
02 Aug 2003 12:08:19 PM |
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On Sat, 02 Aug 2003 10:05:33 -0400, "Scott M. Kozel"
<kozelsm@attbi.com> wrote:
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote:
"Scott M. Kozel" <kozelsm@attbi.com> wrote:
"We understand that the Byron Union Elementary School District ("BUESD")
has instituted a mandatory course for seventh grade History students
which contains an elaborate section teaching the history and traditions
of the Islam religion. The particular methods that BUESD and its agents
have implemented in teaching this course section have led to a number of
complaints by parents regarding violations of their and their children's
First Amendment freedoms. By this letter, the American Center for Law
and Justice ("ACLJ") would like to bring to your attention that the
Islam course section discussed herein contains materials and
requirements that unconstitutionally force students to engage in speech
and practices which conflict with their religion in violation of the
students' free speech and free exercise rights, as well as their
parents' right to direct the education and upbringing of their
children. Additionally, we question two specific exercises employed by
the BUESD and its agents as violating the First Amendment's
Establishment Clause".
http://www.aclj.org/printable.asp?page=/infoletters/islam_in_school2.asp
They have lots of similar lawsuit summaries on their website.
And they're being just as dishonest as you are.
I notice you snipped your own dishonesty.
I see that you can't discuss without engaging in massive amounts of
personal abuse. That doesn't say much for your ideology or the quality
of your arguments.
If you want a discussion then be more honest and stop insisting people
grant your lies as a starting position.
I have given you no personal abuse: if you cannot understand the
difference between being called a liar as an insult and being called
one for lying then there is no hope for you.
The American Center for Law and Justice (ACLJ) is a dedicated to
supporting personal liberties. The ACLJ is also a serious and
determined opponent to the frivolous lawsuits of the ACLU.
*****. The ACLJ is dedicated to supporting those going against the
First Amendment who can't the difference eg between a schoolteacher
acting as an agent of the government, and the same schoolteacher
acting as a private citizen. Clue: when he's in school performing his
role as a teacher he is not a private citizen.
And the ACLU does NOT bring "frivolous lawsuits" but fights for the
freedom of the INDIVIDUAL. Do you honestly not know the difference
between an individual and the government?
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| User: "Scott M. Kozel" |
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| Title: Re: US 491-666 |
02 Aug 2003 07:32:35 PM |
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Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote:
"Scott M. Kozel" <kozelsm@attbi.com> wrote:
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote:
"Scott M. Kozel" <kozelsm@attbi.com> wrote:
http://www.aclj.org/printable.asp?page=/infoletters/islam_in_school2.asp
They have lots of similar lawsuit summaries on their website.
And they're being just as dishonest as you are.
I notice you snipped your own dishonesty.
I see that you can't discuss without engaging in massive amounts of
personal abuse. That doesn't say much for your ideology or the quality
of your arguments.
If you want a discussion then be more honest and stop insisting people
grant your lies as a starting position.
I have given you no personal abuse: if you cannot understand the
difference between being called a liar as an insult and being called
one for lying then there is no hope for you.
No, lying is when you say that something is true when you know it to be
false. I spoke things that I believe to be true, so there was no lie
there. The ACLU has become a controversial organization, and plenty of
people have raised those kind of questions and issues. You are free to
question whether my stated beliefs are correct, and to question whether
my conclusions are correct, but you are not free to accuse me of lying.
Your tactic here has been to shower me with epithets like "liar" and
"dishonest", in what I surmise to be an attempt to bully me into
silence.
There is a special form of lying, called "speaking lies in hypocrisy",
that is much more wrongful than standard lying. That is when the nature
of the lies that you tell, are false accusations that another person is
lying. If "speaking lies in hypocrisy" becomes a habit, that can lead
to "having your conscience seared" (you become an ethical zombie).
I've been fully truthful about what I believe about the issues, and I
have not lied. Even if you are an atheist, God still knows who here is
lying and speaking lies in hypocrisy.
1 Timothy 4:2
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot
iron;.
--
Scott M. Kozel Highway and Transportation History Websites
Virginia/Maryland/Washington, D.C. http://www.roadstothefuture.com
Philadelphia and Delaware Valley http://www.pennways.com
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: US 491-666 |
03 Aug 2003 04:26:55 AM |
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On Sat, 02 Aug 2003 20:32:35 -0400, "Scott M. Kozel"
<kozelsm@attbi.com> wrote:
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote:
"Scott M. Kozel" <kozelsm@attbi.com> wrote:
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote:
"Scott M. Kozel" <kozelsm@attbi.com> wrote:
http://www.aclj.org/printable.asp?page=/infoletters/islam_in_school2.asp
They have lots of similar lawsuit summaries on their website.
And they're being just as dishonest as you are.
I notice you snipped your own dishonesty.
I see that you can't discuss without engaging in massive amounts of
personal abuse. That doesn't say much for your ideology or the quality
of your arguments.
If you want a discussion then be more honest and stop insisting people
grant your lies as a starting position.
I have given you no personal abuse: if you cannot understand the
difference between being called a liar as an insult and being called
one for lying then there is no hope for you.
No, lying is when you say that something is true when you know it to be
false. I spoke things that I believe to be true, so there was no lie
there. The ACLU has become a controversial organization, and plenty of
people have raised those kind of questions and issues. You are free to
question whether my stated beliefs are correct, and to question whether
my conclusions are correct, but you are not free to accuse me of lying.
Only because too many idiots believe the lies told about it.
Your tactic here has been to shower me with epithets like "liar" and
"dishonest", in what I surmise to be an attempt to bully me into
silence.
Another of your lies.
There is a special form of lying, called "speaking lies in hypocrisy",
that is much more wrongful than standard lying. That is when the nature
of the lies that you tell, are false accusations that another person is
lying. If "speaking lies in hypocrisy" becomes a habit, that can lead
to "having your conscience seared" (you become an ethical zombie).
Sounds like you.
I've been fully truthful about what I believe about the issues, and I
have not lied. Even if you are an atheist, God still knows who here is
lying and speaking lies in hypocrisy.
No, you haven't. You have repeated common falsehoods.
1 Timothy 4:2
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot
iron;.
And you're stupid too. What the bible says is utterly irrelevant.
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| User: "Harry Sachz" |
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| Title: Re: US 491-666 |
03 Aug 2003 10:07:06 AM |
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Christopher A. Lee wrote:
Your tactic here has been to shower me with epithets like "liar" and
"dishonest", in what I surmise to be an attempt to bully me into
silence.
Another of your lies.
He's only following the teachings and example of Jesus.
I've been fully truthful about what I believe about the issues, and I
have not lied. Even if you are an atheist, God still knows who here
is
lying and speaking lies in hypocrisy.
No, you haven't. You have repeated common falsehoods.
It's OK to lie for Jebus (where is that damn passage...?)
1 Timothy 4:2
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot
iron;.
And you're stupid too. What the bible says is utterly irrelevant.
Yup.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: US 491-666 |
03 Aug 2003 09:12:06 PM |
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On Sun, 3 Aug 2003 10:07:06 -0500, "Harry Sachz"
<watuziNOSPAM@yahoo.com> posted in alt.atheism:
It's OK to lie for Jebus (where is that damn passage...?)
In the lies of the Nicean Council.
--
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
- Isaac Asimov
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Craig Pennington" |
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| Title: Re: US 491-666 |
01 Aug 2003 10:54:50 PM |
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Scott M. Kozel <kozelsm@attbi.com> wrote:
Craig Pennington <cpenning@milo.org> wrote:
Scott M. Kozel <kozelsm@attbi.com> wrote:
They even went
after a cross on a monument under 70 feet of water 10 miles off of Key
West. They are red diaper doper babies.
Please provide one example of a non-Christian religious symbol
on government propert that could have been considered a promotion
of religion in the same sense and you'd have a point.
Public schools promote other non-Christian religions all the time.
So what? If they do, and if the ACLU is told, and if someone who
has standing chooses to let the ACLU represent them, then the
ACLU will. I was asking for a counter example. This isn't it.
Here is one example --
Do you understand the difference between "teaching about" and
"promoting?" Promoting says "Islam is better than Christianity" or
vice versa. Teaching about is:
... teaching the history and traditions
of the Islam religion.
But that said, I've heard the claim that prayer was solicited.
If it were true, which I might believe if any of the teachers
were actually *Muslim*, this would be a genuine violation.
What I'd like is evidence that the ACLU was presented with
evidence that there was a legitimate violation by someone with
standing, and they turned it down. Pending that, I'll continue
considering you a whiney theocrat pissed that he can't use
government to promote his religion.
[snip]
http://www.aclj.org/printable.asp?page=/infoletters/islam_in_school2.asp
They have lots of similar lawsuit summaries on their website.
Yes, they do. The cases, when they're valid, are cases the ACLU
would also take, or at least wouldn't oppose. In the cases
where the ACLU and the ACLJ actively (that means you have
actual statements from *both* organizations) disagree, the
ACLJ is wrong.
Cheers,
Craig
--
Corollary to Clarke's Third Law:
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently
advanced.
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