| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Donald Stanley Hayden" |
| Date: |
22 Nov 2003 08:12:58 AM |
| Object: |
Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
Al Klein (rukbat@pern.invalid) wrote:
: On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:23:46 -0500, "m" <m2o@memyself&eye.com> posted
: in alt.atheism:
: >Mr. Max P. Diddy wrote in message ...
: >>All of those claims have been debunked. There is no evidence Jesus
: >>ever existed.
: >hmmm....
: >if you truly believed this
: Until someone presents objective evidence that Jesus DID exist, all
: rational people will "believe this".
: --
: "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education and social
: ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he
: had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
: -Albert Einstein
: (random sig, produced by SigChanger)
: rukbat at optonline dot net
Regardless of whether or not you believe in the "supernatural" parts of
the Gospels, the man Jesus of Nazareth did exist. Both Josephus and
Tacitus wrote of the execution of Jesus.
Don H.
--
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| User: "LongDang" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
25 Nov 2003 02:59:09 PM |
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wrote in message ...
None of the Emperor's clothes had been so successful before.
"But he has got nothing on," said a little child.
Mr.Antonio...What Are You Wearing...?
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
25 Nov 2003 04:45:50 PM |
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On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:59:09 -0500, "LongDang" <LD1@bigrichard.com>
wrote:
tonyofbexarremovethis@yahoo.dk wrote in message ...
None of the Emperor's clothes had been so successful before.
"But he has got nothing on," said a little child.
Mr.Antonio...What Are You Wearing...?
How long have you been thinking about it?
None of the Emperor's clothes had been so successful before.
"But he has got nothing on," said a little child.
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| User: "LongDang" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
25 Nov 2003 09:13:04 PM |
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wrote in message ...
On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:59:09 -0500, "LongDang"
<LD1@bigrichard.com>
wrote:
wrote in message ...
None of the Emperor's clothes had been so successful before.
"But he has got nothing on," said a little child.
Mr.Antonio...What Are You Wearing...?
How long have you been thinking about it?
Ever Since You Showed Your *****...In Public...Mr.AntoniAsso...!
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
26 Nov 2003 12:59:21 AM |
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On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 22:13:04 -0500, "LongDang" <LD1@bigrichard.com>
wrote:
tonyofbexarremovethis@yahoo.dk wrote in message ...
On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:59:09 -0500, "LongDang"
<LD1@bigrichard.com>
wrote:
tonyofbexarremovethis@yahoo.dk wrote in message ...
None of the Emperor's clothes had been so successful before.
"But he has got nothing on," said a little child.
Mr.Antonio...What Are You Wearing...?
How long have you been thinking about it?
Ever Since You Showed Your *****...In Public...Mr.AntoniAsso...!
Although I am quite flattered that you find me so attractive, I should
point out that I am heterosexual. I hope you are able to get over it
and find a nice man you can settle down with.
None of the Emperor's clothes had been so successful before.
"But he has got nothing on," said a little child.
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| User: "penitent leper" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
25 Nov 2003 12:28:24 PM |
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On 25 Nov 2003 09:44:57 -0800, (Anatid Bonecki)
wrote:
tonyofbexarremovethis@yahoo.dk wrote in message
We have no evidence that Jesus, as described in the Bible, existed.
Your personal claim is more evidence of your mental illness than of
anything else.
I see,so according to your logic...all written evidence you approve of
on one hand is "true" whereas if it is in the Bible then it is somehow
no longer true? That doesn't make much sense. I can see that like your
compatriots, you have no facility for argumentation.
Nah, that'd be you. You make bald-faced assertions of reincarnation
and immortality without offering a singe iota of proof.
Being contrary
does not mean you are correct in any of your assertions. We have more
evidence for Jesus being real than we have for many so-called
historical characters.
How is that relevant to the fact that you have told us to "take it
on faith" that you are a reincarnated Essene?
Oh, well. Another day, another atheist for
breakfast.
Too hasty a judgment, since you've proven nothing about your central
claim to be a reincarnated Essene and Jesus' uncle.
As for my proposed "mental illness." I'll accept your spurious
diagnosis after I've checked into your imaginary clinic, Dr. Tony.
Not an imaginary clinic. There are plenty of real ones you can
check into to find out why you suffer from this Essene
reincarnationist delusion.
- pl -
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| User: "angelicusrex" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
26 Nov 2003 01:34:11 PM |
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"penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message > > >
Nah, that'd be you. You make bald-faced assertions of reincarnation
and immortality without offering a singe iota of proof.
I have seen little "proof" of reincarnation or immortality anywhere. It's
all hearsay. I just happen to know they both exist. How? God and Angels told
me this is how it is. You want proof? Ask them.
I wrote an entire book on the subject of the "Speaking of Angels." Meanwhile
my so-called "assertions" are articles of my faith. If you don't like them,
tough luck, it's a free internet.
Too hasty a judgment, since you've proven nothing about your central
claim to be a reincarnated Essene and Jesus' uncle.
I said I had a previous life in which I was an Essene. My friend, Essenism
doesn't transfer with the soul. It's a BELIEF system. I was also a cowboy. I
was also a Black kid, I was a lot of different things. So I am way more than
a "reincarnated Essene." I go back a long, long way, as you do. As everyone
does. It's not my assertion. It's a fact. I was not "Jesus' Uncle." I said
he CALLED me Uncle. It was a term of endearment common to our people at the
time. If you didn't know, the Jews had these Tribes. And these Tribes were
ALL related by blood? And by Jesus time there was only a couple of these
left, which meant most Jews in Judea were related distantly to one another.
However I was a little more realted to John's family. And John was related
to Jesus. So they both called me Uncle. Why would that be so hard to
believe?
Not an imaginary clinic.
You don't run these clinics. You are not a doctor, so the point is, take
your diagnosis walkin'.
There are plenty of real ones you can
check into to find out why you suffer from this Essene
reincarnationist delusion.
You could check into one yourself. Just to see if you are still under the
impression that you are a psychiatrist of such note that people everywhere
should listen to you. Hopefully you aren't out there prescribing meds. After
all, I no longer go around teaching people how to write Hebrew.
Saint
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| User: "penitent leper" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
28 Nov 2003 05:40:15 PM |
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On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 12:34:11 -0700, "angelicusrex"
<whisperindave@msn.com> wrote:
"penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message > > >
Nah, that'd be you. You make bald-faced assertions of reincarnation
and immortality without offering a singe iota of proof.
I have seen little "proof" of reincarnation or immortality anywhere. It's
all hearsay. I just happen to know they both exist. How? God and Angels told
me this is how it is. You want proof? Ask them.
Okay, you've stepped beyond rational debate and historical probity.
You've just said something stupid, to the effect, "I just happen to
know that Fairyworld exists. How? The Wee Folk told me this is how
it is. You want proof? Ask them."
Consider yourself plonked.
[ snip meandering useless self-aggrandizement ]
- pl -
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
28 Nov 2003 06:18:24 PM |
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"penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote
Okay, you've stepped beyond rational debate and historical
probity. You've just said something stupid, to the effect, "I
just happen to know that Fairyworld exists. How?
My irony meter just exploded... again.
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| User: "penitent leper" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
28 Nov 2003 07:40:10 PM |
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On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:18:24 -0500, "JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote:
"penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote
Okay, you've stepped beyond rational debate and historical
probity. You've just said something stupid, to the effect, "I
just happen to know that Fairyworld exists. How?
My irony meter just exploded... again.
I wasn't talking to you, Sonny. But since you butted in, it's
obvious that, like the rest of your ineffectual mental apparati, your
"irony meter" is pathologically hypersensitive. I've met several
posters online who disagree with me and it's been a pleasure talking
with them. Unfortunately, you're not one of them. Your eagerness to
provoke, rather than to debate, is evidenced in your attempted police
action, above. It took me too long to realize you're a waste of time,
but welcome to my killfile nonetheless.
- pl -
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
28 Nov 2003 10:10:50 PM |
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"penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote
I wasn't talking to you, Sonny.
I didn't say that you were. But, with your lack of reading
comprehension... your inability to construct an argument
and support it with citations... I can understand the need
for you to chase an ignorant strawman like you're doing.
You're welcome.
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| User: "penitent leper" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
24 Nov 2003 10:25:13 PM |
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On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:06:25 -0700, "angelicusrex"
<whisperindave@msn.com> wrote:
Not all established facts need to have "evidence" to back them up.
Did President Nixon say anything on the "eighteen minute gap" on his tapes
during the Watergate affair? Maybe he was just sitting twiddling his thumbs.
There's no evidence he said anything. But we know he did. We'll just never
know what. What you are considering to be "evidence" is hearsay reporting
from people two thousand years dead and gone. "If Josephus didn't write it,
it couldn't have happened!" Why not? Did Josephus know everything that ever
happened in Judea during his life time? Or had he simply heard reports? Did
Pliny actually go to Africa to see wonders? No. Written information is NOT
evidence.
There is not one shred of written evidence of anyone from that time saying:
"These Christians are loopy! I was there for the whole thirty three years in
Nazareth, in Bethlehem and in Jerusalem and all over the place and I never
once heard tell of any guy named Jesus!" So there is more supporting written
documentation of him then there is swearing he is a fable. Heck, I'd accept
one document from Pontius Pilate exclaiming "Jesus who?" But just because no
"evidence" exists that a thing happened, does not mean it did not happen. We
can make fair assumptions with the knowledge we have that Jesus lived. And
I just happen to have been there. So I know.
Then it's not a "fair assumption...that Jesus lived". It's
_knowledge_ based on your purported personal experience. If you
really were "there", then you must have a myriad of answers to
questions that surround the life and times of Jesus.
But to start with something really easy, let's see a demonstration
of your fluency in Second Temple liturgical Hebrew, Aramaic, koine
Greek, and Latin. After that we can move on to your supplying missing
historical and cultural data.
- pl -
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| User: "Gordon" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
23 Nov 2003 04:38:01 PM |
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penitent leper wrote:
Just the opposite, because the miracles under discussion - as well
as the teachings - are well-documented facts cross-culturally.
(snipperoo)
If you claim that a person (in this case, JC) whose teachings and
miracles are extremely well-documented historically, culturally, and
globally in _other_ cultural religious types, then the burden is on
you to prove the "mythic", non-factual, non-historical nature of
Jesus' teachings and miracles.
If what JC did was and is routine historically, culturally, and
globally in _other_ cultural religious types, then what was and is so
special about him? His claims to being the Son of God and Redeemer of the
world, etc. are -not- justified by the run-of-the-mill commonness of his
doings, assuming they were real. He should have claimed to be a faceless,
look-alike healer and exorcist.
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| User: "angelicusrex" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
23 Nov 2003 11:35:55 PM |
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"Gordon" <Gordon@nospam.net> wrote in message
If what JC did was and is routine historically, culturally, and
globally in _other_ cultural religious types, then what was and is so
special about him?
He was about the only one who preached that the God of the Jews was
everyone's God and that people ought to live in peace one with another. He
also introduced the idea of communal living and worshiping and being
"cleaned" outside the Temple. For A Jew he was a total radical.
His claims to being the Son of God and Redeemer of the
world, etc. are -not- justified by the run-of-the-mill commonness of his
doings, assuming they were real.
Thos claims were made for him, not by him. He never claimed anything of
himself except that all he did and said were from God.
He should have claimed to be a faceless,
look-alike healer and exorcist.
How can one be a "faceless, look-alike?"
he was come in the name of the Hebrew God to bring the House of Israel back
to the true way of God and reconnect them to God. He was a rabbi, a
Spiritual Teacher. Not just a healer and exorcist. And he brought a new
value system of loving one's neighbor, like the Romans and Samaritans who
were absolutely despised at the time. Again, he was a radical. And his
radical ideas changed the world.
Saint
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| User: "Jos Flachs" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
24 Nov 2003 04:36:44 AM |
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On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 22:35:55 -0700, "angelicusrex"
<whisperindave@msn.com> wrote:
"Gordon" <Gordon@nospam.net> wrote in message
If what JC did was and is routine historically, culturally, and
globally in _other_ cultural religious types, then what was and is so
special about him?
He was about the only one who preached that the God of the Jews was
everyone's God and that people ought to live in peace one with another.
Yeah, that is why he came to bring a sword, and to set father against
son.
He
also introduced the idea of communal living and worshiping and being
"cleaned" outside the Temple. For A Jew he was a total radical.
No, not radical at all. The Essenes, remember? You were <snort> one of
them.
His claims to being the Son of God and Redeemer of the
world, etc. are -not- justified by the run-of-the-mill commonness of his
doings, assuming they were real.
Thos claims were made for him, not by him. He never claimed anything of
himself except that all he did and said were from God.
Not even that....
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
24 Nov 2003 03:37:12 AM |
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On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 22:35:55 -0700, "angelicusrex"
<whisperindave@msn.com> wrote:
"Gordon" <Gordon@nospam.net> wrote in message
If what JC did was and is routine historically, culturally, and
globally in _other_ cultural religious types, then what was and is so
special about him?
He was about the only one who preached that the God of the Jews was
everyone's God and that people ought to live in peace one with another. He
also introduced the idea of communal living and worshiping and being
"cleaned" outside the Temple. For A Jew he was a total radical.
He was not the only one.
His claims to being the Son of God and Redeemer of the
world, etc. are -not- justified by the run-of-the-mill commonness of his
doings, assuming they were real.
Thos claims were made for him, not by him. He never claimed anything of
himself except that all he did and said were from God.
We only know what others claimed for him.
He should have claimed to be a faceless,
look-alike healer and exorcist.
How can one be a "faceless, look-alike?"
he was come in the name of the Hebrew God to bring the House of Israel back
to the true way of God and reconnect them to God.
That was the claim.
He was a rabbi, a
Spiritual Teacher. Not just a healer and exorcist. And he brought a new
value system of loving one's neighbor,
Not new.
like the Romans and Samaritans who
were absolutely despised at the time. Again, he was a radical. And his
radical ideas changed the world.
Not so one could notice.
None of the Emperor's clothes had been so successful before.
"But he has got nothing on," said a little child.
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| User: "angelicusrex" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
24 Nov 2003 07:28:49 PM |
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<tonyofbexarremovethis@yahoo.dk> wrote in message
He was about the only one who preached that the God of the Jews was
everyone's God and that people ought to live in peace one with another.
He
also introduced the idea of communal living and worshiping and being
"cleaned" outside the Temple. For A Jew he was a total radical.
He was not the only one.
I said he was ABOUT the only one. And certainly, he's the only one who
counted.
We only know what others claimed for him.
Maybe that's because you never talked to him?
He should have claimed to be a faceless,
look-alike healer and exorcist.
How can one be a "faceless, look-alike?"
he was come in the name of the Hebrew God to bring the House of Israel
back
to the true way of God and reconnect them to God.
That was the claim.
He was a rabbi, a
Spiritual Teacher. Not just a healer and exorcist. And he brought a new
value system of loving one's neighbor,
Not new.
like the Romans and Samaritans who
were absolutely despised at the time. Again, he was a radical. And his
radical ideas changed the world.
Not so one could notice.
Oh, brother, you're just being contrary here. The value system was new.
Considering what he said when they asked him "Who is my neighbor?" And he
answered it was the person you despise the most! Pretty damned fresh and new
in most cultures. And if you didn't notice the change, then you must have
just come out of a fall-out shelter or from under a rock.
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| User: "penitent leper" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
24 Nov 2003 09:50:03 PM |
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On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 18:28:49 -0700, "angelicusrex"
<whisperindave@msn.com> wrote:
<tonyofbexarremovethis@yahoo.dk> wrote in message
He was about the only one who preached that the God of the Jews was
everyone's God and that people ought to live in peace one with another.
He
also introduced the idea of communal living and worshiping and being
"cleaned" outside the Temple. For A Jew he was a total radical.
He was not the only one.
I said he was ABOUT the only one. And certainly, he's the only one who
counted.
He was one among many who "counted" and who continue to count. The
Buddha and Lao Tzu were not chopped liver.
We only know what others claimed for him.
Maybe that's because you never talked to him?
Or maybe JC's not replying.
He should have claimed to be a faceless,
look-alike healer and exorcist.
How can one be a "faceless, look-alike?"
he was come in the name of the Hebrew God to bring the House of Israel
back
to the true way of God and reconnect them to God.
That was the claim.
He was a rabbi, a
Spiritual Teacher. Not just a healer and exorcist.
My posts never made this minimalist claim. I also claimed he was a
transformative sage and anti-Wisdom teacher, and the xian messiah.
And he brought a new
value system of loving one's neighbor,
Not new.
like the Romans and Samaritans who
were absolutely despised at the time. Again, he was a radical. And his
radical ideas changed the world.
Not so one could notice.
Oh, brother, you're just being contrary here. The value system was new.
Considering what he said when they asked him "Who is my neighbor?" And he
answered it was the person you despise the most! Pretty damned fresh and new
in most cultures.
Yes, that's true. He identified "what god wants of us" as loving
and forgiving the most despised people. Yes, pretty fresh in most
cultures, but not unprecedented.
And if you didn't notice the change, then you must have
just come out of a fall-out shelter or from under a rock.
The noticeable change is in reports of founders of religions. There
has been very little social change to notice. Quite the opposite - JC
has been, since Constantine, subsumed into and domesticated by the
military industrial complex. The Bushies are practitioners of this
pseudo-Jesus "religion."
- pl -
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
25 Nov 2003 05:30:49 AM |
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On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 18:28:49 -0700, "angelicusrex"
<whisperindave@msn.com> wrote:
<tonyofbexarremovethis@yahoo.dk> wrote in message
He was about the only one who preached that the God of the Jews was
everyone's God and that people ought to live in peace one with another.
He
also introduced the idea of communal living and worshiping and being
"cleaned" outside the Temple. For A Jew he was a total radical.
He was not the only one.
I said he was ABOUT the only one. And certainly, he's the only one who
counted.
(Sounds of goal posts being moved several miles) He was one of
thousands - if he existed at all.
We only know what others claimed for him.
Maybe that's because you never talked to him?
Your claim cannot be taken seriously.
He should have claimed to be a faceless,
look-alike healer and exorcist.
How can one be a "faceless, look-alike?"
he was come in the name of the Hebrew God to bring the House of Israel
back
to the true way of God and reconnect them to God.
That was the claim.
He was a rabbi, a
Spiritual Teacher. Not just a healer and exorcist. And he brought a new
value system of loving one's neighbor,
Not new.
like the Romans and Samaritans who
were absolutely despised at the time. Again, he was a radical. And his
radical ideas changed the world.
Not so one could notice.
Oh, brother, you're just being contrary here. The value system was new.
Considering what he said when they asked him "Who is my neighbor?" And he
answered it was the person you despise the most! Pretty damned fresh and new
in most cultures. And if you didn't notice the change, then you must have
just come out of a fall-out shelter or from under a rock.
The ideas were not new. There is no evidence that we, as a result of
his teaching them, have absorbed them anymore than past generations
did.
None of the Emperor's clothes had been so successful before.
"But he has got nothing on," said a little child.
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| User: "Sean McHugh" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
23 Nov 2003 05:38:06 PM |
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Gordon wrote:
penitent leper wrote:
Just the opposite, because the miracles under discussion - as well
as the teachings - are well-documented facts cross-culturally.
(snipperoo)
If you claim that a person (in this case, JC) whose teachings and
miracles are extremely well-documented historically, culturally, and
globally in _other_ cultural religious types, then the burden is on
you to prove the "mythic", non-factual, non-historical nature of
Jesus' teachings and miracles.
If what JC did was and is routine historically, culturally, and
globally in _other_ cultural religious types, then what was and is so
special about him? His claims to being the Son of God and Redeemer of the
world, etc. are -not- justified by the run-of-the-mill commonness of his
doings, assuming they were real. He should have claimed to be a faceless,
look-alike healer and exorcist.
Well spotted and excellent aim.
Best Regards,
Sean McHugh
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| User: "penitent leper" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
23 Nov 2003 09:58:42 PM |
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On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 23:38:06 GMT, Sean McHugh <smchugh@shoal.net.au>
wrote:
Gordon wrote:
penitent leper wrote:
Just the opposite, because the miracles under discussion - as well
as the teachings - are well-documented facts cross-culturally.
(snipperoo)
If you claim that a person (in this case, JC) whose teachings and
miracles are extremely well-documented historically, culturally, and
globally in _other_ cultural religious types, then the burden is on
you to prove the "mythic", non-factual, non-historical nature of
Jesus' teachings and miracles.
If what JC did was and is routine historically, culturally, and
globally in _other_ cultural religious types, then what was and is so
special about him? His claims to being the Son of God and Redeemer of the
world, etc. are -not- justified by the run-of-the-mill commonness of his
doings, assuming they were real. He should have claimed to be a faceless,
look-alike healer and exorcist.
Well spotted and excellent aim.
Nah, but a good try. Jesus was unique as messiah and agent of the
Kingdom, just as the Buddha was unique as teacher of the Eightfold
Path, just as Beethoven was unique as composer of Eroica.
You'll have to brush up on your spotting and your aiming.
- pl -
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| User: "Sean McHugh" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
24 Nov 2003 06:57:22 PM |
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penitent leper wrote:
On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 23:38:06 GMT, Sean McHugh <smchugh@shoal.net.au>
wrote:
Gordon wrote:
penitent leper wrote:
Just the opposite, because the miracles under discussion - as well
as the teachings - are well-documented facts cross-culturally.
(snipperoo)
If you claim that a person (in this case, JC) whose teachings and
miracles are extremely well-documented historically, culturally, and
globally in _other_ cultural religious types, then the burden is on
you to prove the "mythic", non-factual, non-historical nature of
Jesus' teachings and miracles.
If what JC did was and is routine historically, culturally, and
globally in _other_ cultural religious types, then what was and is so
special about him? His claims to being the Son of God and Redeemer of the
world, etc. are -not- justified by the run-of-the-mill commonness of his
doings, assuming they were real. He should have claimed to be a faceless,
look-alike healer and exorcist.
Well spotted and excellent aim.
Nah, but a good try. Jesus was unique as messiah and agent of the
Kingdom, just as the Buddha was unique as teacher of the Eightfold
Path, just as Beethoven was unique as composer of Eroica.
You can't have it both ways. If Christians try to excuse the lack
non religious historical corroboration for Jesus, on his lack of
notability, they can't maintain that there is any moral or
intellectual obligation for people to take notice, believe and
WORSHIP him two thousand years later!
You'll have to brush up on your spotting and your aiming.
Huh? I was complimenting Gordon, not myself. I suggest you with
the program before you start handing out advice.
Best Regards,
Sean McHugh
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| User: "penitent leper" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
24 Nov 2003 09:44:25 PM |
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On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 00:57:22 GMT, Sean McHugh <smchugh@shoal.net.au>
wrote:
penitent leper wrote:
On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 23:38:06 GMT, Sean McHugh <smchugh@shoal.net.au>
wrote:
Gordon wrote:
penitent leper wrote:
Just the opposite, because the miracles under discussion - as well
as the teachings - are well-documented facts cross-culturally.
(snipperoo)
If you claim that a person (in this case, JC) whose teachings and
miracles are extremely well-documented historically, culturally, and
globally in _other_ cultural religious types, then the burden is on
you to prove the "mythic", non-factual, non-historical nature of
Jesus' teachings and miracles.
If what JC did was and is routine historically, culturally, and
globally in _other_ cultural religious types, then what was and is so
special about him? His claims to being the Son of God and Redeemer of the
world, etc. are -not- justified by the run-of-the-mill commonness of his
doings, assuming they were real. He should have claimed to be a faceless,
look-alike healer and exorcist.
Well spotted and excellent aim.
Nah, but a good try. Jesus was unique as messiah and agent of the
Kingdom, just as the Buddha was unique as teacher of the Eightfold
Path, just as Beethoven was unique as composer of Eroica.
You can't have it both ways. If Christians try to excuse the lack
non religious historical corroboration for Jesus, on his lack of
notability, they can't maintain that there is any moral or
intellectual obligation for people to take notice, believe and
WORSHIP him two thousand years later!
"Both ways" works just fine. Of course, the gimmick here is "if
Christians try..." which is irrelevant because I'm not a Christian and
I don't care what they think/how they believe. It doesn't matter what
xians try to do with or about Jesus, as they largely don't care about
NT scholarship/history/comparative religions/the enlightenment
traditions.
The point is that the religious significance of JC is as valid as
the musical significance of Beethoven. Yes, JC was a teacher among
teachers, as Beethoven was a composer among composers. Yet
Beethoven's "Eroica" stands on its own as his unique, musical
composition - and so does what Jesus said about the sacred, as _his_
unique, religious "composition."
You'll have to brush up on your spotting and your aiming.
Huh? I was complimenting Gordon, not myself. I suggest you with
the program before you start handing out advice.
My use was plural. Gordon aimed, you supported him in his aiming,
so included you both. No offense intended if I'm wrong on that.
- pl -
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
25 Nov 2003 05:30:48 AM |
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On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:44:25 -0800, penitent leper
<bastaschs@peak.org> wrote:
On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 00:57:22 GMT, Sean McHugh <smchugh@shoal.net.au>
wrote:
penitent leper wrote:
On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 23:38:06 GMT, Sean McHugh <smchugh@shoal.net.au>
wrote:
Gordon wrote:
penitent leper wrote:
Just the opposite, because the miracles under discussion - as well
as the teachings - are well-documented facts cross-culturally.
(snipperoo)
If you claim that a person (in this case, JC) whose teachings and
miracles are extremely well-documented historically, culturally, and
globally in _other_ cultural religious types, then the burden is on
you to prove the "mythic", non-factual, non-historical nature of
Jesus' teachings and miracles.
If what JC did was and is routine historically, culturally, and
globally in _other_ cultural religious types, then what was and is so
special about him? His claims to being the Son of God and Redeemer of the
world, etc. are -not- justified by the run-of-the-mill commonness of his
doings, assuming they were real. He should have claimed to be a faceless,
look-alike healer and exorcist.
Well spotted and excellent aim.
Nah, but a good try. Jesus was unique as messiah and agent of the
Kingdom, just as the Buddha was unique as teacher of the Eightfold
Path, just as Beethoven was unique as composer of Eroica.
You can't have it both ways. If Christians try to excuse the lack
non religious historical corroboration for Jesus, on his lack of
notability, they can't maintain that there is any moral or
intellectual obligation for people to take notice, believe and
WORSHIP him two thousand years later!
"Both ways" works just fine. Of course, the gimmick here is "if
Christians try..." which is irrelevant because I'm not a Christian and
I don't care what they think/how they believe. It doesn't matter what
xians try to do with or about Jesus, as they largely don't care about
NT scholarship/history/comparative religions/the enlightenment
traditions.
The point is that the religious significance of JC is as valid as
the musical significance of Beethoven. Yes, JC was a teacher among
teachers, as Beethoven was a composer among composers. Yet
Beethoven's "Eroica" stands on its own as his unique, musical
composition - and so does what Jesus said about the sacred, as _his_
unique, religious "composition."
Jesus was not unique. There was nothing new in the teachings
attributed to him.
The miracles would be impressive if there was any evidence for them,
but there is not.
None of the Emperor's clothes had been so successful before.
"But he has got nothing on," said a little child.
.
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| User: "Hector Plasmic" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
25 Nov 2003 04:14:35 PM |
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penitent leper <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message news:<hlj5sv0bqndg55eauklm87ilqcfgsv2ela@4ax.com>...
The point is that the religious significance of JC
is as valid as the musical significance of
Beethoven.
You mean "that the religious significance of JC is as valid as the
musical significance of Josie and the Pussycats." Sure. The
religious significance of JC is as significant as that of Cthulhu, if
you'd care not to mix your genres.
Hec
http://hectorplasmic.com
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| User: "angelicusrex" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
26 Nov 2003 01:48:21 PM |
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Boy, Hector, you sure am dumb!
Again, H.P. Lovecraft mentions having made up Cthulhu. I am a published
Lovecraftian writer, BTW, so don't even ***** with me or Cthulhu, because he
will send your soul to the everlasting crawling chaos of the Elder Gods.
Saint
The
religious significance of JC is as significant as that of Cthulhu, if
you'd care not to mix your genres.
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| User: "Hector Plasmic" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
26 Nov 2003 03:53:53 PM |
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"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message news:<bq301l$1spm6n$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de>...
The religious significance of JC is as significant
as that of Cthulhu, if you'd care not to mix your
genres.
Boy, Hector, you sure am dumb!
I'm willin' to let folks judge who is a little slow -- how 'bout you?
:-)
Again, H.P. Lovecraft mentions having made
up Cthulhu.
Answer this simple question: If he hadn't, would that make Cthulhu
real?
There you go. If you still don't get it, did John Carter of Barsoom
exist just because Burroughs claimed to be getting his stories
directly from him in the introductions to the books?
I am a published Lovecraftian writer, BTW
ROFL! Tell us your IQ and GPA, and list your martial arts degrees
next, why don't you?
Instead of meaningless bragging, how about you back up your claims?
Hec
http://hectorplasmic.com
.
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| User: "Satan" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
26 Nov 2003 04:01:53 PM |
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Hector Plasmic wrote:
"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message news:<bq301l$1spm6n$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de>...
The religious significance of JC is as significant
as that of Cthulhu, if you'd care not to mix your
genres.
Boy, Hector, you sure am dumb!
I'm willin' to let folks judge who is a little slow -- how 'bout you?
:-)
Again, H.P. Lovecraft mentions having made
up Cthulhu.
Answer this simple question: If he hadn't, would that make Cthulhu
real?
There you go. If you still don't get it, did John Carter of Barsoom
exist just because Burroughs claimed to be getting his stories
directly from him in the introductions to the books?
I am a published Lovecraftian writer, BTW
ROFL! Tell us your IQ and GPA, and list your martial arts degrees
next, why don't you?
Instead of meaningless bragging, how about you back up your claims?
Hec
http://hectorplasmic.com
Damn nice food service equipment,
especially the "slice and dice" machine.
I might even let you marry my sister, Hec!
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| User: "Hector Plasmic" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
28 Nov 2003 07:08:21 PM |
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On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 22:01:53 +0000, Satan wrote:
I might even let you marry my sister, Hec!
I already married somebody's sister. :-)
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| User: "Satan" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
28 Nov 2003 07:12:05 PM |
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Hector Plasmic wrote:
On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 22:01:53 +0000, Satan wrote:
I might even let you marry my sister, Hec!
I already married somebody's sister. :-)
dammit! wrong family!
nice site, btw - link up sophists, stoics, sceptics, etc...
fun!
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| User: "angelicusrex" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
29 Nov 2003 02:20:13 AM |
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Was it your own sister? ;-)
Saint
"Hector Plasmic" <hectorplasmic@no.att.spam.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.11.28.19.44.44.92777@no.att.spam.net...
On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 22:01:53 +0000, Satan wrote:
I might even let you marry my sister, Hec!
I already married somebody's sister. :-)
.
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