| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Donald Stanley Hayden" |
| Date: |
22 Nov 2003 08:12:58 AM |
| Object: |
Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
Al Klein (rukbat@pern.invalid) wrote:
: On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:23:46 -0500, "m" <m2o@memyself&eye.com> posted
: in alt.atheism:
: >Mr. Max P. Diddy wrote in message ...
: >>All of those claims have been debunked. There is no evidence Jesus
: >>ever existed.
: >hmmm....
: >if you truly believed this
: Until someone presents objective evidence that Jesus DID exist, all
: rational people will "believe this".
: --
: "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education and social
: ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he
: had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
: -Albert Einstein
: (random sig, produced by SigChanger)
: rukbat at optonline dot net
Regardless of whether or not you believe in the "supernatural" parts of
the Gospels, the man Jesus of Nazareth did exist. Both Josephus and
Tacitus wrote of the execution of Jesus.
Don H.
--
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
23 Nov 2003 02:25:24 AM |
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"Donald Stanley Hayden" <ai789@chebucto.ns.ca> wrote
Regardless of whether or not you believe in the "supernatural"
parts of the Gospels, the man Jesus of Nazareth did exist.
Both Josephus and Tacitus wrote of the execution of Jesus.
Although I agree that there was most likely a person (or persons)
that the biblical Jesus was based, he could not have been written
about by either author that you mention.
Both their writings dated to more than a lifetime after the supposed
crucifixion of Jesus, and neither had ever met the man nor anyone
who had met him. Their exposure to Jesus came directly through
Christians.
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| User: "penitent leper" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
23 Nov 2003 03:02:08 AM |
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On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 03:25:24 -0500, "JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Donald Stanley Hayden" <ai789@chebucto.ns.ca> wrote
Regardless of whether or not you believe in the "supernatural"
parts of the Gospels, the man Jesus of Nazareth did exist.
Both Josephus and Tacitus wrote of the execution of Jesus.
Although I agree that there was most likely a person (or persons)
that the biblical Jesus was based, he could not have been written
about by either author that you mention.
Both their writings dated to more than a lifetime after the supposed
crucifixion of Jesus, and neither had ever met the man nor anyone
who had met him. Their exposure to Jesus came directly through
Christians.
That is true for Josephus, Roman writers, and Matthew and Luke.
Mark, however, is said to have gotten some of his data from Peter -
so while Mark did not know JC personally, if this report is correct he
at least had a strong historical connection to him.
"John", who was probably the nameless "Beloved Disciple" of John's
Gospel, claimed direct personal experience of the historical Jesus -
he says that "we" handled the Word which was made flesh in Jesus. The
gospel's redactor in turn refers back to the gospel's originator,
saying that "we know his witness is true." One of these witness-items
is the Beloved Disciple's presence at the crucifixion where he
observed a flow of blood and water issuing from Jesus' pierced side.
- pl -
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| User: "Hector Plasmic" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
25 Nov 2003 04:21:59 PM |
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penitent leper <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message news:<8gt0svooi398r0eoemrirlnmt6e0ift5hk@4ax.com>...
Regardless of whether or not you believe in the "supernatural"
parts of the Gospels, the man Jesus of Nazareth did exist.
Both Josephus and Tacitus wrote of the execution of Jesus.
Although I agree that there was most likely a person (or persons)
that the biblical Jesus was based, he could not have been written
about by either author that you mention.
Both their writings dated to more than a lifetime after the
supposed
crucifixion of Jesus, and neither had ever met the man nor anyone
who had met him. Their exposure to Jesus came directly through
Christians.
IOW, they were merely writing about Christians and their beliefs.
That is true for Josephus, Roman writers, and Matthew and Luke.
Mark, however, is said to have gotten some of his
data from Peter - so while Mark did not know JC
personally, if this report is correct he at least
had a strong historical connection to him.
By whom was this said, and why should we believe it, hmm? :-)
"John", who was probably the nameless "Beloved Disciple"
of John's Gospel, claimed direct personal experience of
the historical Jesus
Yeah, I was there 2,000 years ago and buggered JC myself. I suppose
you'll count that as evidence, too? :-) Silly boy. I lied.
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| User: "Clayton the Yogurt Based Beverage" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
22 Nov 2003 06:15:56 PM |
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"Donald Stanley Hayden" <ai789@chebucto.ns.ca> wrote in message
news:bpnqta$98n$1@News.Dal.Ca...
Al Klein (rukbat@pern.invalid) wrote:
: On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:23:46 -0500, "m" <m2o@memyself&eye.com> posted
: in alt.atheism:
: >Mr. Max P. Diddy wrote in message ...
: >>All of those claims have been debunked. There is no evidence Jesus
: >>ever existed.
: >hmmm....
: >if you truly believed this
: Until someone presents objective evidence that Jesus DID exist, all
: rational people will "believe this".
: --
: "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy,
education and social
: ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in
a poor way if he
: had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after
death."
: -Albert Einstein
: (random sig, produced by SigChanger)
: rukbat at optonline dot net
Regardless of whether or not you believe in the "supernatural" parts of
the Gospels, the man Jesus of Nazareth did exist. Both Josephus and
Tacitus wrote of the execution of Jesus.
J.R.R.Tolken wrote about Hobbits so I guess that means they are real too.
Both Josephus and Tacitus wrote many, many years after the events were
supposed to have happened...neither man was even born at the time...and were
describing THE BELIEFS of the evolving Jesus cult...not a factual
accounting. Have you ever played Chinese Whispers? Well imagine 40 odd
years of that among religious fanatics trying to encourage and intensify
their beliefs. How accurate do you think the stories told to a historian
would be after that? Much of the writings of Josephus about the Jesus cult
has been almost universally dismissed as obviously either a blatant and
clumsy forgery or an "accidentally on purpose" mistranslation and
misinterpretation of an earlier text. Your religion is a religion of lies
and deception and the modern apologist movement carries on that proud
tradition.
Don H.
--
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| User: "Nevermore" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
22 Nov 2003 10:41:22 PM |
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In <3fbffb6c$0$13591$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Clayton the Yogurt
Based Beverage wrote:
"Donald Stanley Hayden" <ai789@chebucto.ns.ca> wrote in message
news:bpnqta$98n$1@News.Dal.Ca...
Al Klein (rukbat@pern.invalid) wrote:
: On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:23:46 -0500, "m" <m2o@memyself&eye.com>
: posted in alt.atheism:
: >Mr. Max P. Diddy wrote in message ...
: >>All of those claims have been debunked. There is no evidence
: >>Jesus ever existed.
: >hmmm....
: >if you truly believed this
: Until someone presents objective evidence that Jesus DID exist, all
: rational people will "believe this".
: --
: "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy,
education and social
: ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed
: be in
a poor way if he
: had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after
death."
: -Albert Einstein
: (random sig, produced by SigChanger)
: rukbat at optonline dot net
Regardless of whether or not you believe in the "supernatural" parts
of the Gospels, the man Jesus of Nazareth did exist. Both Josephus
and Tacitus wrote of the execution of Jesus.
J.R.R.Tolken wrote about Hobbits so I guess that means they are real
too. Both Josephus and Tacitus wrote many, many years after the events
were supposed to have happened...neither man was even born at the time...
and were describing THE BELIEFS of the evolving Jesus cult...not a
factual accounting. Have you ever played Chinese Whispers? Well
imagine 40 odd years of that among religious fanatics trying to
encourage and intensify their beliefs. How accurate do you think the
stories told to a historian would be after that? Much of the writings
of Josephus about the Jesus cult has been almost universally dismissed
as obviously either a blatant and clumsy forgery or an "accidentally
on purpose" mistranslation and misinterpretation of an earlier text.
Your religion is a religion of lies and deception and the modern
apologist movement carries on that proud tradition.
Excellent points, Clayton. It's also well worth remembering that we are
just forty years from the day when JFK was shot in Dallas and look at
all the legitimate questions - and whacked out conspiracy theories -
that event spawned in just four decades.
Further, the differences between trying to figure out what happened to
Kennedy occur in an environment where we have access to a film, numerous
photographs, live news accounts, autopsies, bullet casings, witnesses
interviewed within moments by police and re-interviewed within a day at
the police station with the notes taped and typed out - plus a complete
government investigation! Think what the story of the assassination
would be like today if it took place in a back corner of the desert two
milenia ago with none of those investigative, forensic, or journalistic
resources.
The phenomena in the case of Christianity isn't that so much of the
information is incomplete, inaccurate, and sketchy - the phenomena is
that we have as much of the story surviving as we do. It's a
fascinating piece of cultural history but as a coherent narrative worthy
of abject belief it is less complete and less credible than Santa Claus (
who also has rapidly evolved in synch with the growing number of
adherents in the past 170 years since Christians discovered Christmas!)
Nevermore
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| User: "Steve O" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
23 Nov 2003 06:44:56 AM |
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"Nevermore" <burned@thestake.net> wrote in message
news:20031122234030941-0500@news.valley.net...
In <3fbffb6c$0$13591$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Clayton the Yogurt
Based Beverage wrote:
"Donald Stanley Hayden" <ai789@chebucto.ns.ca> wrote in message
news:bpnqta$98n$1@News.Dal.Ca...
Al Klein (rukbat@pern.invalid) wrote:
: On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:23:46 -0500, "m" <m2o@memyself&eye.com>
: posted in alt.atheism:
factual accounting. Have you ever played Chinese Whispers? Well
imagine 40 odd years of that among religious fanatics trying to
encourage and intensify their beliefs. How accurate do you think the
stories told to a historian would be after that? Much of the writings
of Josephus about the Jesus cult has been almost universally dismissed
as obviously either a blatant and clumsy forgery or an "accidentally
on purpose" mistranslation and misinterpretation of an earlier text.
Your religion is a religion of lies and deception and the modern
apologist movement carries on that proud tradition.
Excellent points, Clayton. It's also well worth remembering that we are
just forty years from the day when JFK was shot in Dallas and look at
all the legitimate questions - and whacked out conspiracy theories -
that event spawned in just four decades.
Who knows what might happen?
Maybe 2000 years down the line JFK might end up as the son of god.
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| User: "Nevermore" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
23 Nov 2003 12:03:24 PM |
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In <bpqa41$1qvtfp$1@ID-136766.news.uni-berlin.de> Steve O wrote:
"Nevermore" <burned@thestake.net> wrote in message
news:20031122234030941-0500@news.valley.net...
In <3fbffb6c$0$13591$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Clayton the
Yogurt Based Beverage wrote:
"Donald Stanley Hayden" <ai789@chebucto.ns.ca> wrote in message
news:bpnqta$98n$1@News.Dal.Ca...
Al Klein (rukbat@pern.invalid) wrote:
: On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:23:46 -0500, "m" <m2o@memyself&eye.com>
: posted in alt.atheism:
factual accounting. Have you ever played Chinese Whispers? Well
imagine 40 odd years of that among religious fanatics trying to
encourage and intensify their beliefs. How accurate do you think
the stories told to a historian would be after that? Much of the
writings of Josephus about the Jesus cult has been almost
universally dismissed as obviously either a blatant and clumsy
forgery or an "accidentally on purpose" mistranslation and
misinterpretation of an earlier text. Your religion is a religion
of lies and deception and the modern apologist movement carries on
that proud tradition.
Excellent points, Clayton. It's also well worth remembering that we
are just forty years from the day when JFK was shot in Dallas and
look at all the legitimate questions - and whacked out conspiracy
theories - that event spawned in just four decades.
Who knows what might happen?
Maybe 2000 years down the line JFK might end up as the son of god.
I think it's entirely possible. The story has got all the mythical
elements of a religion right through to JFK Jr. People are already
praying to Elvis and claiming miracles which isn't really much different
in terms of mechanics than claiming Mother Teressa is a saint. When you
watch the dynamics involved in such modern fairy tales and the hype
people are willing to entertain around celebrities and political events
you realize that it wouldn't have taken much of a "good story" to propel
a popular preacher into the Son of God in a few short decades. In those
times and that instance the lack of documentation worked for the cause
instead of against it.
Nevermore
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| User: "Jos Flachs" |
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| Title: Re: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
23 Nov 2003 10:02:01 PM |
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On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 12:44:56 -0000, "Steve O" <stoboyle@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Excellent points, Clayton. It's also well worth remembering that we are
just forty years from the day when JFK was shot in Dallas and look at
all the legitimate questions - and whacked out conspiracy theories -
that event spawned in just four decades.
Who knows what might happen?
Maybe 2000 years down the line JFK might end up as the son of god.
JFK and Clinton becoming gods... probably fertility gods.
Reagan: the god for those that forget a lot.
Bush: so the dumbo's have a god as well. (And the opposite of Jupiter
Stator, the god that rallies fleeing soldiers.)
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
23 Nov 2003 01:27:26 AM |
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On 23 Nov 2003 04:41:22 GMT, Nevermore <burned@thestake.net> posted in
alt.atheism:
The phenomena in the case of Christianity isn't that so much of the
information is incomplete, inaccurate, and sketchy - the phenomena is
that we have as much of the story surviving as we do.
There are stories from even earlier times that survive today. Now, if
the story of Jesus were journals of a real occurrence ...
--
"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid
consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and
ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who
works on the basis of reward and punishment. "
- Letter to M. Berkowitz, October 25, 1950; Einstein Archive 59-215
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
23 Nov 2003 02:35:56 AM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote
Nevermore <burned@thestake.net> posted in alt.atheism:
The phenomena in the case of Christianity isn't that so much
of the information is incomplete, inaccurate, and sketchy -
the phenomena is that we have as much of the story surviving
as we do.
There are stories from even earlier times that survive today.
Now, if the story of Jesus were journals of a real occurrence ...
What really gets me is how those "even earlier" stories detail
pretty much all the miracles attributed to Jesus. There's wasn't
a single one that I know of which hadn't been culturally known
100 years before the time of Jesus.
Personally, I think there was a Jesus. But, I think that the masses
just would accept a Jesus who was unadorned with the culturally
recognized "powers" of religious authority -- the "miracles."
Heck, it may have even been simpler than that. Maybe it was a
case where the "believers" couldn't resist attributing these
cultural "powers" to Jesus for their own benefit, and not for
recruitment.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
23 Nov 2003 10:06:11 AM |
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On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 03:35:56 -0500, "JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> posted
in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote
Nevermore <burned@thestake.net> posted in alt.atheism:
The phenomena in the case of Christianity isn't that so much
of the information is incomplete, inaccurate, and sketchy -
the phenomena is that we have as much of the story surviving
as we do.
There are stories from even earlier times that survive today.
Now, if the story of Jesus were journals of a real occurrence ...
What really gets me is how those "even earlier" stories detail
pretty much all the miracles attributed to Jesus. There's wasn't
a single one that I know of which hadn't been culturally known
100 years before the time of Jesus.
Personally, I think there was a Jesus. But, I think that the masses
just would accept a Jesus who was unadorned with the culturally
recognized "powers" of religious authority -- the "miracles."
Heck, it may have even been simpler than that. Maybe it was a
case where the "believers" couldn't resist attributing these
cultural "powers" to Jesus for their own benefit, and not for
recruitment.
My take is that there was probably a rabbi names Yeshua, but that Saul
made up the biblical Jesus out of whole cloth long after the time
"Jesus" was supposed to have lived ... long enough that no one could
check. So some people, not wanting to admit that the Emperor was
dressed in underwear, would say, "Yes, I seem to recall the day he
{was crucified|fed the multitude|raised a man from the dead|etc.}. I
was a little {boy|girl}, and ..."
Remember, the Jews of the time NEEDED someone to save them from the
Romans. ("My father can beat up your father.") Why not go along with
a story of someone who could *guarantee* that you'd be one of the
chosen few when you die - for ETERNITY?
--
"...I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand
why I dismiss yours."
- Stephen F. Roberts
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
23 Nov 2003 01:33:44 PM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote
Remember, the Jews of the time NEEDED someone to save
them from the Romans.
By the time Christ really took hold, what they needed was someone
who explained why their God hadn't saved them from the Romans.
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| User: "John Shaluly" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
23 Nov 2003 05:19:58 PM |
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"JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7omdnT3mbolAl1yiRVn-sw@comcast.com...
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote
Remember, the Jews of the time NEEDED someone to save
them from the Romans.
By the time Christ really took hold, what they needed was someone
who explained why their God hadn't saved them from the Romans.
The message of Christ has been distorted by the Church. We are all Gods
children same as he was. Notice how some times he's called the son of
man..and sometimes the son of God. When he raised Lazzerus from the dead he
told the onlooks that they would preform miracles greater than this. It's
time to awaken the God in us all my brothers...Our mission is the same as
Jesus'.....Save the world!
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
23 Nov 2003 03:48:21 PM |
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"John Shaluly" <shalulyj@bellsouth.net> wrote
The message of Christ has been distorted by the Church. We
are all Gods children same as he was.
That would seem consistent with the beliefs of the Essenes.
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| User: "penitent leper" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
23 Nov 2003 04:28:36 PM |
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On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 16:48:21 -0500, "JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote:
"John Shaluly" <shalulyj@bellsouth.net> wrote
The message of Christ has been distorted by the Church. We
are all Gods children same as he was.
That would seem consistent with the beliefs of the Essenes.
It's completely inconsistent with the beliefs of the Essenes.
The Essenes were exclusivists who believed and desired that outside
parties, both Jewish and Gentile, would perish in god's apocalyptic
judgment of the world - with the Essenes surviving, of course.
"We are all God's children" is not an Essene sentiment.
- pl -
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
23 Nov 2003 11:55:27 PM |
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"penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote
"JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote:
"John Shaluly" <shalulyj@bellsouth.net> wrote
The message of Christ has been distorted by the Church. We
are all Gods children same as he was.
That would seem consistent with the beliefs of the Essenes.
It's completely inconsistent with the beliefs of the Essenes.
Bull *****.
The Essenes were exclusivists
You're wrong on two counts. The first is that you misunderstood me
(though I admittedly chose my words poorly so that much isn't your
fault), and the second is that you are no implying something that is
not true.
All of the Essenes were children of the light, children of God. Maybe
they didn't always view others -- non Essenes -- as worthy, but they
certainly did not exclude those others. Not ever. Those others could
have joined them if they wanted.
"We are all God's children" is not an Essene sentiment.
Your statement may be factually correct, but it is effectively incorrect.
The Essenes were a great many things over the years, and what evidence
there is concerning their interactions with other Jews doesn't support
them looking down their noses at everybody else, muttering "we're all
better than you." In fact, not only did the Essenes change over time, but
they appear to have been two different things at the same time.
They'd lead a Jesus + 12 like existence in holy places (like Jerusalem),
and a normal "Jewish" existence (including wife & children) when
elsewhere. Their "Exclusivity" appears to have only applied to their
sacred spaces.
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| User: "penitent leper" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
24 Nov 2003 01:12:14 AM |
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On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 00:55:27 -0500, "JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote:
"penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote
"JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote:
"John Shaluly" <shalulyj@bellsouth.net> wrote
The message of Christ has been distorted by the Church. We
are all Gods children same as he was.
That would seem consistent with the beliefs of the Essenes.
It's completely inconsistent with the beliefs of the Essenes.
Bull *****.
It's your *****. Pick up your shovel.
The Essenes were exclusivists
You're wrong on two counts. The first is that you misunderstood me
(though I admittedly chose my words poorly so that much isn't your
fault), and the second is that you are no implying something that is
not true.
I'm implying nothing but I am stating the truth that the Essenes
were exclusivists which meant that not everybody could join.
Joining under extreme requirements does not invalidate the principle
of exclusivism.
All of the Essenes were children of the light, children of God. Maybe
they didn't always view others -- non Essenes --
Wrongly stated: they _always_ viewed others as unworthy, impure,
and anti-God.
as worthy, but they
certainly did not exclude those others. Not ever. Those others could
have joined them if they wanted.
Wrong. No one could join the Essenes unless they submitted
themselves to the Essene rule, their purity code, and their theology.
Purity groups are exclusivist by definition, and the Essenes were a
purity group which took pride in separating themselves out from
everyone else, including practicing Jews.
If they were inclusive they would, like Christianity, have dropped
all requirements, actively proselytized, and welcomed unclean
Gentiles. They didn't.
"We are all God's children" is not an Essene sentiment.
Your statement may be factually correct,
Facts are historical study's most precious gems.
but it is effectively incorrect.
"If I say I'm an Essene, then by God I'm an Essene." Effective but
incorrect.
The Essenes were a great many things over the years, and what evidence
there is concerning their interactions with other Jews doesn't support
them looking down their noses at everybody else, muttering "we're all
better than you."
They did indeed claim superiority. That is why they had to separate
themselves even from the holiest sacred center in Judaism, the
priesthood-and-Temple. And it's not a matter of "better than you"
because that implies moral superiority. They did believe they were
morally superior, but their "betterment" was their purity, not their
morality.
In fact, not only did the Essenes change over time, but
they appear to have been two different things at the same time.
They'd lead a Jesus + 12 like existence in holy places (like Jerusalem),
Nah, their life style was completely at odds with the Jesus
movement.
and a normal "Jewish" existence (including wife & children) when
elsewhere.
No, they lived a restrictive and "special" Jewish existence. And
they were not celibate at Qumran, except for certain limited and
predictable periods of purification.
Their "Exclusivity" appears to have only applied to their
sacred spaces.
Need some proof of that, please.
- pl -
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
26 Nov 2003 01:03:26 AM |
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"penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote
Wrong. No one could join the Essenes unless they submitted
themselves to the Essene rule, their purity code, and their theology.
So nobody could join unless they wanted to?
Purity groups are exclusivist by definition, and the Essenes were
a purity group which took pride in separating themselves out from
everyone else, including practicing Jews.
Again, this may be true in some theory, but the evidence is such that
it wasn't true in practice.
but it is effectively incorrect.
"If I say I'm an Essene, then by God I'm an Essene." Effective
but incorrect.
You're chasing a strawman here. The facts do not support your
conclusion that the Essenes were somehow exclusive. Again, they
were different things at different points in history, but for the
period of time in question (in or near the 1st century), the evidence
appears to support a group that was one way AT SACRED
LOCATIONS only, and another way elsewhere. Sexual relations
with a woman, for example, would be totally OUTSIDE their
sense of purity, but only when visting a location deemed sacred.
Outside of such a place, these "purity" requirements don't appear to
be any kind of a concern.
Secondly, their interactions with other Jews of this period appear
to have been more than cordial. In fact, they appear to have
garned for themselves a great deal of respect. Hardly what we
might expect for a group that, as you claim, ran around shouting
"Unclean!" and "I'm better than you!" at everybody.
They did indeed claim superiority.
Just as every Christian sect claims they alone got it right, and
all the others got it wrong. This is why there are so many
different Christian sects.
That is why they had to separate themselves even from the
holiest sacred center in Judaism, the priesthood-and-Temple.
The evidence says that they did no such thing. In fact, what
evidence there is has Josephus declaring them "favored" by
Herod the great, and that he provided them with a major center
in Jerusalem.
That, and Jerusalem had the "Gate of the Essenes" in the city
wall.
All of this was written about by Josephus, who claimed to have
actually studied their philosophy with thoughts of joining, and
has been confirmed by archaeological finds.
Yes, I don't place much stock in Josephus either, but much of
what he states about the Essenes has been supported by
archaeological finds... including their poo.
and a normal "Jewish" existence (including wife & children)
when elsewhere.
No, they lived a restrictive and "special" Jewish existence.
There doesn't appear to be any evidence at all to support this, while
there is evidence to support a contradictiory view.
And they were not celibate at Qumran, except for certain limited
and predictable periods of purification.
You're making a great many statements here, none of which has any
support.
Need some proof of that, please.
They freely shared their thoughts & literature with outsiders. We
know this from the writings of Philo dating to before the Jewish
revolt, and the later writings of Josephus.
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| User: "penitent leper" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
28 Nov 2003 05:37:44 PM |
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On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 02:03:26 -0500, "JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote:
"penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote
Wrong. No one could join the Essenes unless they submitted
themselves to the Essene rule, their purity code, and their theology.
So nobody could join unless they wanted to?
Purity groups are exclusivist by definition, and the Essenes were
a purity group which took pride in separating themselves out from
everyone else, including practicing Jews.
Again, this may be true in some theory, but the evidence is such that
it wasn't true in practice.
but it is effectively incorrect.
"If I say I'm an Essene, then by God I'm an Essene." Effective
but incorrect.
You're chasing a strawman here. The facts do not support your
conclusion that the Essenes were somehow exclusive. Again, they
were different things at different points in history, but for the
period of time in question (in or near the 1st century), the evidence
appears to support a group that was one way AT SACRED
LOCATIONS only, and another way elsewhere. Sexual relations
with a woman, for example, would be totally OUTSIDE their
sense of purity, but only when visting a location deemed sacred.
Outside of such a place, these "purity" requirements don't appear to
be any kind of a concern.
Secondly, their interactions with other Jews of this period appear
to have been more than cordial. In fact, they appear to have
garned for themselves a great deal of respect. Hardly what we
might expect for a group that, as you claim, ran around shouting
"Unclean!" and "I'm better than you!" at everybody.
Respect takes different forms. Many respect health-nuts but don't
follow their regimen. Ditto "respect" for Essenes.
They did indeed claim superiority.
Just as every Christian sect claims they alone got it right, and
all the others got it wrong. This is why there are so many
different Christian sects.
They did indeed claim superiority.
That is why they had to separate themselves even from the
holiest sacred center in Judaism, the priesthood-and-Temple.
The evidence says that they did no such thing. In fact, what
evidence there is has Josephus declaring them "favored" by
Herod the great, and that he provided them with a major center
in Jerusalem.
That, and Jerusalem had the "Gate of the Essenes" in the city
wall.
They had to separate themselves even from the holiest sacred center
in Judaism, the priesthood-and-Temple.
This is why they called their own center the "real" Temple and
excoriated the Jerusalem Temple and its priests.
All of this was written about by Josephus, who claimed to have
actually studied their philosophy with thoughts of joining, and
has been confirmed by archaeological finds.
Yes, I don't place much stock in Josephus either, but much of
what he states about the Essenes has been supported by
archaeological finds... including their poo.
and a normal "Jewish" existence (including wife & children)
when elsewhere.
No, they lived a restrictive and "special" Jewish existence.
There doesn't appear to be any evidence at all to support this, while
there is evidence to support a contradictiory view.
Establishing a separate, "pure" cultic center outside of and
opposed to Jerusalem indicates their main claim to be the
Elect-Separatists for whom God would destroy corrupt Jerusalem and the
Gentiles.
And they were not celibate at Qumran, except for certain limited
and predictable periods of purification.
You're making a great many statements here, none of which has any
support.
How so? The myth of a celibate monastic group was a Christian
superimposition on Jewish sectarian Qumran.
Need some proof of that, please.
They freely shared their thoughts & literature with outsiders. We
know this from the writings of Philo dating to before the Jewish
revolt, and the later writings of Josephus.
That doesn't make them non-exclusivist. And it doesn't account
for the fact that they possessed secret doctrines not available to
outsiders.
- pl -
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
28 Nov 2003 06:17:35 PM |
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"penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote
Ditto "respect" for Essenes.
Sources?
They did indeed claim superiority.
Citations?
They had to separate themselves [...]
And the evidence you offer in support of this is... ????
Establishing a separate,
Sources? Quotes? URLs? Let's see them!
You're making a great many statements here, none of which
has any support.
How so?
One big *Duh* for you.
That doesn't make them non-exclusivist.
Sources? Quotes?
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| User: "penitent leper" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
28 Nov 2003 07:35:52 PM |
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On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:17:35 -0500, "JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote:
"penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote
Ditto "respect" for Essenes.
Sources?
Come off it. You haven't cited anything solid, except urls.
They did indeed claim superiority.
Citations?
They had to separate themselves [...]
And the evidence you offer in support of this is... ????
Just as much as you've offered.
Establishing a separate,
Sources? Quotes? URLs? Let's see them!
Right. Let's see them! Here. From your own thinking or from
quotes posted within this thread.
And I'm not going to waste my time re-inventing the Essene wheel.
That they were separatists is undisputed. But if you want to fight
the consensus, go right ahead.
The only useful method here is brief source citation, and
argumentation coming from posters. URLs don't count because they
don't originate with the poster in the context of the thread and they
focus attention on outside data that is not visually presented in the
thread.
That's okay for those who want supplemental reading, but replies
within the thread need to be posted _inside_ the thread. If you
want to quote brief passages from urls and/or books, and base your
argumentation on those, go ahead.
You're making a great many statements here, none of which
has any support.
How so?
One big *Duh* for you.
Not as big as all of your big Duhs, but I'm not collecting them.
That doesn't make them non-exclusivist.
Sources? Quotes?
"Sources/Quotes" are not necessary, as the statement was purely
syllogistic.
If you want to drop the url stuff and post source quotes in the
thread, I might do the same.
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
28 Nov 2003 10:09:04 PM |
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"penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote
"JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote:
"penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote
Ditto "respect" for Essenes.
Sources?
Come off it.
No. You offer nothing but pronouncements. You have no
position here, no argument. All you offer is one baseless
declaration after another.
You haven't cited anything solid, except urls.
....and Josephus and Philo... in addition to URLs....
Right there, that's three citations that I offered.
But you offered nothing, not a damn thing, and now I'm calling
"*****." You have nothing to offer. You're making this stuff
up as you go along. Period.
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| User: "angelicusrex" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
23 Nov 2003 11:20:54 PM |
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"penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
It's completely inconsistent with the beliefs of the Essenes.
The Essenes were exclusivists who believed and desired that outside
parties, both Jewish and Gentile, would perish in god's apocalyptic
judgment of the world - with the Essenes surviving, of course.
"We are all God's children" is not an Essene sentiment.
Actually you are wrong. All Jewish people understood that they and everyone
else was a child of the Living God. Some had simply "fallen away" and were
rejected. They had fallen away because of their habits which made them
"unclean." it was the Unclean and the Sinful which would be wiped off the
earth leaving it to the penitent (even penitent lepers) and the washed. Much
of this dynamic played out in the testament of John and other Gospel
writers. The Essenes were separatists. But they trained Jesus and others
like the Baptist in the secrets of their cult. Part of the understanding was
that all men and women should be given a chance to be clean and repent and
then await patiently the End Times.
Of course the End Times never happened. The Goyim or unclean and unfaithful
destroyed Jerusalem, killed the Essenes and scattered the Jews, destroying
the Temple utterly. The survivors were Rabbinic Jews and Christians, who
both luckily believed in peace and brotherhood, and so were not viewed as
trouble makers right away. I know all this because I was there. Because I
was an Essene. Even the Essenes understood that God was the One creator of
All Things and All people. No devil or angel was the equal of God, therefore
they could not create anything themselves that was not essentially of God.
But they could "reject" God or fall into grevious and blasphemous sin and
idolatry.
The Essenes were not happy with Jesus and John and others whom they had
trained, when they went out and preached to the great unwashed masses and
offered salvation outside of "Damascus" or the Spiritual Center of the
Essenes at Qumran. And the hard-core members wailed about how the Apocalypse
would come and destroy all the unclean. Other members were not quite so
absolute in their beliefs. Some of them helped Jesus in his resurrection and
went on to be Christians themselves. In essence, Jesus caused a schizm in
the group and those who did not see things as strict or as harsh as some
Essene leaders, went on to preach the Gospel in their way. The basis of the
Gospel being that God was Everyon'e Father. And even the Goyim or Gentiles
were acceptable if they took up the faith, and anyone even lepers and
sinners could be clean. They went about healing others and preaching a new
way of life. Eventually this became early Christianity. The rest of the
Essene colony lost their battle with the forces of Darkness, who were the
Romans. Many died at Masada and many in Jerusalem. But they live still. For
this is the truth, that all men who believe inGod and live a virtuous life
seeking truth, are alive fully and forever.
Saint
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| User: "penitent leper" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
24 Nov 2003 12:53:11 AM |
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On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 22:20:54 -0700, "angelicusrex"
<whisperindave@msn.com> wrote:
"penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
It's completely inconsistent with the beliefs of the Essenes.
The Essenes were exclusivists who believed and desired that outside
parties, both Jewish and Gentile, would perish in god's apocalyptic
judgment of the world - with the Essenes surviving, of course.
"We are all God's children" is not an Essene sentiment.
Actually you are wrong. All Jewish people understood that they and everyone
else was a child of the Living God. Some had simply "fallen away" and were
rejected. They had fallen away because of their habits which made them
"unclean." it was the Unclean and the Sinful which would be wiped off the
earth leaving it to the penitent (even penitent lepers) and the washed. Much
of this dynamic played out in the testament of John and other Gospel
writers. The Essenes were separatists. But they trained Jesus and others
like the Baptist in the secrets of their cult. Part of the understanding was
that all men and women should be given a chance to be clean and repent and
then await patiently the End Times.
Nah. They kept their penance and purification only to themselves.
If they had an "understanding" that "all" others be given a chance to
get purified, they would have sought converts among other Jews and
Gentiles. Instead, they held salvation unto themselves as "God's
Elect".
Of course the End Times never happened. The Goyim or unclean and unfaithful
destroyed Jerusalem, killed the Essenes and scattered the Jews, destroying
the Temple utterly. The survivors were Rabbinic Jews and Christians, who
both luckily believed in peace and brotherhood, and so were not viewed as
trouble makers right away. I know all this because I was there. Because I
was an Essene.
Former life? Too bad you weren't paying attention.
Even the Essenes understood that God was the One creator of
All Things and All people.
And they understood that they, and they alone, were the purified
Elect of God.
No devil or angel was the equal of God,
Nope - they had an extremely advanced angelology in which they
practiced "ascent to the heavens" and gained magical power by learning
the angels' secret names. The Essene's angels were functionally
equivalent to God.
therefore
they could not create anything themselves that was not essentially of God.
But they could "reject" God or fall into grevious and blasphemous sin and
idolatry.
The Essenes were not happy with Jesus
They never said anything about Jesus, so how do you verify this
historically?
and John and others whom they had
trained,
There is no evidence that John had been an Essene, although it's a
popular theory.
when they went out and preached to the great unwashed masses and
offered salvation outside of "Damascus" or the Spiritual Center of the
Essenes at Qumran.
Sounds like you've been indoctrinated by the dread Barbara Thiering.
And the hard-core members wailed about how the Apocalypse
would come and destroy all the unclean. Other members were not quite so
absolute in their beliefs. Some of them helped Jesus in his resurrection and
went on to be Christians themselves.
If you're thinking of the white-garbed men in Jesus' tomb, you've
confused mythology with history. Like your obvious mentor, Hugh
Schonfield.
SNIP
- pl -
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| User: "angelicusrex" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
24 Nov 2003 07:47:34 PM |
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"penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
Nah. They kept their penance and purification only to themselves.
If they had an "understanding" that "all" others be given a chance to
get purified, they would have sought converts among other Jews and
Gentiles. Instead, they held salvation unto themselves as "God's
Elect".
So you are saying you have evidence the Essenes accepted no Converted Jew,
but only those born Jewish? Please present it.
Former life? Too bad you weren't paying attention.
So you are saying you presently know more about the obscure sect of the
Essenes than someone who was there? Sort of like you telling Benjamin
Harrison all about the Eighteen Hundreds...
Even the Essenes understood that God was the One creator of
All Things and All people.
And they understood that they, and they alone, were the purified
Elect of God.
This does not negate the assertion that they understood all men were
children of God. Some were just "bad children." But even a bad child could
repent and be saved.
No devil or angel was the equal of God,
Nope - they had an extremely advanced angelology in which they
practiced "ascent to the heavens" and gained magical power by learning
the angels' secret names. The Essene's angels were functionally
equivalent to God.
All Jewish angels are "functionally equivalent to God." This was not a
function of Essene belief alone. The point is the God Head has no equal.
There can therefore be no "dualism" per se in Essene doctrine. There's no
born bad people vs born good people.
therefore
they could not create anything themselves that was not essentially of
God.
But they could "reject" God or fall into grevious and blasphemous sin and
idolatry.
The Essenes were not happy with Jesus
They never said anything about Jesus, so how do you verify this
historically?
Because I was there. I was one of his teachers. So maybe someday I'll dig
out my old letters. Until then, you'll have to take it as an article of my
faith. Unless you want to get into all the same silly "logical argument
rules" the atheists are trying to apply to another person's faith?
and John and others whom they had
trained,
There is no evidence that John had been an Essene, although it's a
popular theory.
Again, I was there. John was a member of my own family. Jesus called me
"Uncle" but I was only distantly related.
when they went out and preached to the great unwashed masses and
offered salvation outside of "Damascus" or the Spiritual Center of the
Essenes at Qumran.
Sounds like you've been indoctrinated by the dread Barbara Thiering.
Sorry, but these things I recalled long before any books on the subjects
came out. I've never heard of Ms. Theiring. If you would like to continue
being glib about it, be my guest. that still won't make you correct, simply
glib.
If you're thinking of the white-garbed men in Jesus' tomb, you've
confused mythology with history. Like your obvious mentor, Hugh
Schonfield.
I have no mentors. And who mentioned anything about the "white garbed men?"
Whomever helped him resurrect came and went silently and took him out of
that tomb alive. I'm sure they wouldn't have stayed around to be accused of
tomb robbing. Again your glibness is what makes others resent your self-back
patting status of being an intellectual. How about being open and asking
questions? No? Allrighty then....
Saint
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| User: "t_nasimith" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
24 Nov 2003 08:05:29 PM |
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"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wigs out:
"penitent leper" wrote:
[...]
They never said anything about Jesus, so how do you verify this
historically?
Because I was there. I was one of his teachers. So maybe someday I'll dig
out my old letters. Until then, you'll have to take it as an article of my
faith.
That's a passle of delusional claims, there Dave ... which
lunatic asilym did you say you were posting from again?
Unless you want to get into all the same silly "logical argument
rules" the atheists are trying to apply to another person's faith?
Sure, why employ rationality when Dave's fantasies are 'true'
because he "just knows" they are?
[...]
Again, I was there. John was a member of my own family. Jesus called me
"Uncle" but I was only distantly related.
Dave, you're the poster-child for whackjob lunatics,
aren't you?
Allrighty then....
Saint Deluded of Wingnut
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| User: "zayton" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
24 Nov 2003 10:01:24 PM |
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"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bpucbc$1suhmj$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de...
"penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
Nah. They kept their penance and purification only to themselves.
If they had an "understanding" that "all" others be given a chance to
get purified, they would have sought converts among other Jews and
Gentiles. Instead, they held salvation unto themselves as "God's
Elect".
So you are saying you have evidence the Essenes accepted no Converted Jew,
but only those born Jewish? Please present it.
That's not what he said. He said they did not accept "converts". That is,
converts to their sect. It did not matter if they were born Jewish or not.
They accepted only male orphans of Priestly families to be fostered by the
community. That was the only way to become an Essene. Their original members
were the remnants of the pre-Hasmonean Highly Priestly family ousted from
the Temple when the descendants of Judas Maccabeas took over the High
Priestly office as well as the kingship of the land.
Joe
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| User: "penitent leper" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
25 Nov 2003 01:28:39 AM |
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On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 22:01:24 -0600, "zayton" <zayton@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bpucbc$1suhmj$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de...
"penitent leper" <bastaschs@peak.org> wrote in message
Nah. They kept their penance and purification only to themselves.
If they had an "understanding" that "all" others be given a chance to
get purified, they would have sought converts among other Jews and
Gentiles. Instead, they held salvation unto themselves as "God's
Elect".
So you are saying you have evidence the Essenes accepted no Converted Jew,
but only those born Jewish? Please present it.
That's not what he said. He said they did not accept "converts". That is,
converts to their sect. It did not matter if they were born Jewish or not.
They accepted only male orphans of Priestly families to be fostered by the
community. That was the only way to become an Essene. Their original members
were the remnants of the pre-Hasmonean Highly Priestly family ousted from
the Temple when the descendants of Judas Maccabeas took over the High
Priestly office as well as the kingship of the land.
Thank you for the data and clarifications. I wonder why Saint's
"personal experience" of a former Essene life conflicts with
historical data. But I'm not wondering _that_ hard!
- pl -
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| User: "Priapus" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
24 Dec 2003 03:53:17 AM |
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"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bpucbc$1suhmj$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de...
I have no mentors.
Ok, then name one of your role models.
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| User: "Priapus" |
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| Title: Re: Was Jesus Christ a fairy tale? |
24 Dec 2003 04:22:25 AM |
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"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bpucbc$1suhmj$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de...
There is no evidence that John had been an Essene, although it's
a
popular theory.
Again, I was there.
Do you mean, in a past life? If so, when did you realize this?
John was a member of my own family. Jesus called me
"Uncle" but I was only distantly related.
How do you know any of this?
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