| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"= Vox Populi ©" |
| Date: |
27 Jun 2004 10:01:10 AM |
| Object: |
Re: What do you swear in court if you are an aetheist? |
Steven O. wrote:
Suppose I'm called into court to testify for some reason. If I inform
the judge, or his clerk, that I'm an aetheist,
No need to do that. Just inform them you'll have nothing
to do with their perverse, grotesque god superstitions and
find the only good use for the holey babble is as an asswipe.
and object to swearing
under God's name, is there a provision for an alternate swearing?
Yes, affirm to tell the truth under penalty of perjury.
Would it vary from state to state, or in Federal court? Same question
for testifying before Congress, or whatever....
Steve O.
Steven AATT Domain DDOOTT com
To send an e-mail, substitute @ for AATT, a . for DDOOTT, and OpComm
for Domain
--
"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our
number one priority and we will not rest until we find him."
~ George Bush Jr. 2001-09-13
"I don't know where he (bin Laden) is. I have no idea and I really
don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
~ George Bush Jr. 2002-03-13
"I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to
get a deferment. Not was I willing to go to Canada. So I chose to
better myself by learning how to fly airplanes."
~George W. Bush on how he dodged the
Vietnam draft---1994
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: What do you swear in court if you are an aetheist? |
28 Jun 2004 05:27:33 PM |
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"=> Vox Populi ©" <vox@popu.li> wrote in message
news:7hBDc.23$%M3.3631@news.uswest.net...
Steven O. wrote:
Suppose I'm called into court to testify for some reason. If I inform
the judge, or his clerk, that I'm an aetheist,
Snippppppppp
and object to swearing
under God's name, is there a provision for an alternate swearing?
Oh ***** !!!!
Bugger !
Sod it.... Urm
Fucking ow.....
You *****.........
cu*t licking slime-chewin-asswipe.....
Yeah.....theres lots of swearing that can be done without 'God' involved !
:)
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: What do you swear in court if you are an aetheist? |
27 Jun 2004 03:39:38 PM |
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"=> Vox Populi ©" <vox@popu.li> wrote in message
news:7hBDc.23$%M3.3631@news.uswest.net...
Steven O. wrote:
Suppose I'm called into court to testify for some reason. If I inform
the judge, or his clerk, that I'm an aetheist,
Well, you could do nothing. On your jury card, write that you're an
Atheist. Then when everyone does the swearing in, you could do one of two
things:
1) jump up, say "Mr Judge, I'm an atheist and swearing religious oaths mean
nothing to me. Have you a non-religious oath?" or . . .
2) don't swear the oath, just keep silent, and see if the judge asks, "Did
everyone take the religious oath, or does someone need a secular oath?"
Chances are the judge doesn't give a rat's ***** about oaths and won't ask if
anyone needs a secular affirmation. So. Let it slide.
If you get picked for a jury, they'll probably administer another oath. Do
the same as you did before. Chances are no one cares, and no one will
notice what you do or don't do.
Then go through the trial. At that point, that gives you an awful lot of
influence over the outcome of things. If you think the outcome isn't going
the way you think it should, you could mention something like, "Gee, judge
(or Mr. Bailiff, or Mr. Defense lawyer, does it really matter if I take
those silly oaths, 'cause I didn't 'cause I'm an atheist." At that point,
the case gets dismissed because of a mistrial, and the judge learns to ask
his potential jurors if anyone needs a secular oath.
You might get asked the obvious question, "Why didn't you say something
about it before?" and the obvious answer is, "Well, no one asked."
You'd think the legal minds would figure out stuff like this before it
happens, but . . .
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| User: "DEATH" |
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| Title: Re: What do you swear in court if you are an aetheist? |
27 Jun 2004 04:00:49 PM |
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You'd think the legal minds would figure out stuff like this before it
happens, but . . .
A legal mind and a 6-year-old playing king of the hill and throwing temper
tantrums because the world wont do as he thinks have a great deal in common.
GOD
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: What do you swear in court if you are an aetheist? |
27 Jun 2004 05:54:57 PM |
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Great Lord <tock@sbcglobal.net>, braving the raging storm, scaled the
mighty crag called alt.atheism on Sun, 27 Jun 2004 20:39:38 GMT and
screamed this to the uncaring Gods.
1) jump up, say "Mr Judge, I'm an atheist and swearing religious oaths mean
nothing to me. Have you a non-religious oath?" or . . .
2) don't swear the oath, just keep silent, and see if the judge asks, "Did
everyone take the religious oath, or does someone need a secular oath?"
Last time I was a juror, God was never mentioned. Not when we were
sworn in as jurors, and not when witnesses were sworn in. No Bible,
either.
The main point of the oath is to insure that the witness knows that
they are obligated to tell the truth, so that perjury charges can be
brought if it can be shown that a witness lied his ***** off on the
stand.
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: What do you swear in court if you are an aetheist? |
28 Jun 2004 12:09:38 AM |
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Last time I was a juror, God was never mentioned. Not when we were
sworn in as jurors, and not when witnesses were sworn in. No Bible,
either.
The main point of the oath is to insure that the witness knows that
they are obligated to tell the truth, so that perjury charges can be
brought if it can be shown that a witness lied his ***** off on the
stand.
I'm in Texas . . . you can't have an orgasm here without saying "Jesus
Christ" or "Omygod." I was called for jury duty 5 times in Denton County,
and I asked for secular affirmations twice, didn't bother the 3rd or 4th
time, served on the jury the 4th time, and didn't bother the 5th. If the
losing side knew I didn't take the oath, they could have a mistrial declared
and get a second chance . . . but, the way I figure it, it's up to the court
to make sure everyone follows their silly little religious formalities.
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| User: "John M Price PhD" |
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| Title: Re: What do you swear in court if you are an aetheist? |
27 Jun 2004 04:16:20 PM |
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In alt.atheism article <egGDc.4355$ET2.2840@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com> wrote:
: "=> Vox Populi ?" <vox@popu.li> wrote in message
: news:7hBDc.23$%M3.3631@news.uswest.net...
: > Steven O. wrote:
: > > Suppose I'm called into court to testify for some reason. If I inform
: > > the judge, or his clerk, that I'm an aetheist,
: Well, you could do nothing. On your jury card, write that you're an
: Atheist. Then when everyone does the swearing in, you could do one of two
: things:
: 1) jump up, say "Mr Judge, I'm an atheist and swearing religious oaths mean
: nothing to me. Have you a non-religious oath?" or . . .
: 2) don't swear the oath, just keep silent, and see if the judge asks, "Did
: everyone take the religious oath, or does someone need a secular oath?"
: Chances are the judge doesn't give a rat's ***** about oaths and won't ask if
: anyone needs a secular affirmation. So. Let it slide.
: If you get picked for a jury, they'll probably administer another oath. Do
: the same as you did before. Chances are no one cares, and no one will
: notice what you do or don't do.
: Then go through the trial. At that point, that gives you an awful lot of
: influence over the outcome of things. If you think the outcome isn't going
: the way you think it should, you could mention something like, "Gee, judge
: (or Mr. Bailiff, or Mr. Defense lawyer, does it really matter if I take
: those silly oaths, 'cause I didn't 'cause I'm an atheist." At that point,
: the case gets dismissed because of a mistrial, and the judge learns to ask
: his potential jurors if anyone needs a secular oath.
Well, no. *You* might be excluded from the jury and an alternate (there
are usually a couple of those selected, and they do hear all teh evidence)
will step in for your open spot.
: You might get asked the obvious question, "Why didn't you say something
: about it before?" and the obvious answer is, "Well, no one asked."
: You'd think the legal minds would figure out stuff like this before it
: happens, but . . .
They do.
(c) 2004. Copyright, John M. Price, PhD. All Rights Reserved.
Contents may not be republished in any form or medium without prior
written consent of the author with the express and only exception of
followup postings limited to and within usenet.
--
John M. Price, PhD
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
There is no question that the feminist effect to rethink hysteria has had
a major positive effort on literary criticism. It has also had real
impact for psychiatry and psychoanalysis. But the feminist embrace of all
abuse narratives and the treatment of all women as survivors have
troubling implications. Claiming hysteria and admiring its victims may
have had inspirational functions in the 1970s: feminism, like other
insurgent movements, needed martyrs. But Saint Dora's days are over.
Today's feminists need models rather than martyrs; we need the courage to
think as well as the courage to heal.
- Elaine Showalter - _Hystories_, p61.
.
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| User: "BTR1701" |
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| Title: Re: What do you swear in court if you are an aetheist? |
27 Jun 2004 10:01:25 PM |
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In article <egGDc.4355$ET2.2840@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com>,
<tock@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Then go through the trial. At that point, that gives you an awful lot
of influence over the outcome of things. If you think the outcome isn't
going the way you think it should, you could mention something like, "Gee,
judge (or Mr. Bailiff, or Mr. Defense lawyer, does it really matter if I take
those silly oaths, 'cause I didn't 'cause I'm an atheist." At that
point, the case gets dismissed because of a mistrial,
It would be a rare judge indeed who would grant a mistrial over
something so trivial. What would really happen is that you'd be kicked
off the jury and one of the alternates would take your place.
You would also get booted off the jury for speaking to the defense
attorney in an ex parte manner as you suggested.
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| User: "= Vox Populi ©" |
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| Title: Re: G Bu$h Sr. = Bigoted Scumnbag ...What do you swear in court if you are an aetheist? |
28 Jun 2004 12:07:13 AM |
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BTR1701 wrote:
In article <egGDc.4355$ET2.2840@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com>,
<tock@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Then go through the trial. At that point, that gives you an awful
lot of influence over the outcome of things. If you think the
outcome isn't going the way you think it should, you could mention
something like, "Gee, judge (or Mr. Bailiff, or Mr. Defense lawyer,
does it really matter if I take those silly oaths, 'cause I didn't
'cause I'm an atheist." At that point, the case gets dismissed
because of a mistrial,
It would be a rare judge indeed who would grant a mistrial over
something so trivial. What would really happen is that you'd be kicked
off the jury and one of the alternates would take your place.
You would also get booted off the jury for speaking to the defense
attorney in an ex parte manner as you suggested.
So what do you think about the scumbag patriarch of your boss's criminal
family ?
When George Bush was campaigning for the presidency, as incumbent vice
president, one of his stops was in Chicago, Illinois, on August 27, 1987. At
O'Hare Airport he held a formal outdoor news conference. There Robert I.
Sherman, a reporter for the American Atheist news journal, fully accredited
by the state of Illinois and by invitation a participating member of the
press corps covering the national candidates had the following exchange with
then Vice President Bush.
Sherman: What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are
Atheists?
Bush: I guess I'm pretty weak in the Atheist community. Faith in god is
important to me.
Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of
Americans who are Atheists?
Bush: No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor
should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.
Sherman (somewhat taken aback): Do you support as a sound constitutional
principle the separation of state and church?
Bush: Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very
high on Atheists.
On October 29, 1988, Mr. Sherman had a confrontation with Ed Murnane,
cochairman of the Bush-Quayle '88 Illinois campaign. This concerned a
law-suit Mr. Sherman had filed to stop the Community Consolidated School
District 21 (Chicago, Illinois, suburb) from forcing his first-grade Atheist
son to pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States "one nation under
God" (Bush's phrase). The following conversation took place.
Sherman: American Atheists filed the Pledge of Allegiance lawsuit yesterday.
Does the Bush campaign have an official response to this filing?
Murnane: It's *****.
Sherman: What is *****?
Murnane: Everything that American Atheists does, Rob, is *****.
Sherman: Thank you for telling me what the official position of the Bush
campaign is on this issue.
Murnane: You're welcome
This suit, now in federal district court for over three years, is not
considered to be ***** by the federal judge before whom it is pending.
During the time it has been in the federal court, Robert Sherman's son, now
age nine, has been physically and psychologically brutalized in his school
for refusing to pledge to a "nation under God."
After Bush's election but before his taking office, American Atheists wrote
to Bush asking that he consider being sworn into office on the Constitution
instead of the Bible and also asking him to retract his August 1987
statement. Bush had his White House buddy, C. Boyden Gray, counsel to the
president, reply on White House stationery on February 21, 1989, stating
that substantively Bush stood by his original statement.
"As you are aware, the President is a religious man who neither supports
atheism nor believes that atheism should be unnecessarily encouraged or
supported by the government."
American Atheists had not asked Bush to either "unnecessarily" or even
"necessarily" encourage or support them. All they wanted was an apology for
the insult. Many Atheists wrote to Bush over the issue and Nelson Lund, the
associate counsel to the president, found it necessary to reply on April 7,
1989, directly to the American Atheist General Headquarters, Inc. This
letter from the White House said that Mr. Gray was adhering to his
statements in the February 21, 1989, letter. On May 4, 1989, Jon Murray,
the president of
American Atheists, again wrote to President Bush demanding a clarification
of and an apology for his statement that Atheists "should not be considered
as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots." Bush ignored the
letter, as did Gray and Lund. Mr. Murray also asked for an appointment so
that a group of representatives of American Atheists could meet with Bush.
Mr. Joseph W. Hagin 11 responded on May 25, 1989, again on White House
stationery. He stated that the president "appreciated your taking the time
to write and your willingness to share your thoughts" but that "due to heavy
commitments on his official calendar" the president could not meet with
representatives of American Atheists. On January 9, 1990, George Bush, in
signing a proclamation for the Martin Luther King holiday, had the gall to
remark that "bigots" must be brought to justice. Again, American Atheists
threw his words back in his face, asking what his designation of Atheists as
being unworthy of citizenship was. On February 5, 1990, Mr. Nelson Lund
replied again on White House stationery--stating
"We believe that our position has been adequately explained in previous
correspondence."
Indeed it has, and that position is that George Bush is a bigot.
On February 21, 1~90, American Atheists wrote to every member of the United
States Congress asking that body to pass a resolution condemning
discrimination against Atheists by any elected or appointed official of
government. The offered resolution read:
"No person in public life may be free to impugn the patriotism of any
minority group because of that group's opinion in respect to religion.
President George Bush is herewith censured for his public expression of
August 27, 1987, at which time he stated: 'I don't know that Atheists should
be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is
one nation under God.'"
You don't need to guess how many senators and representatives answered that
letter: there were none. At this point, American Atheists sent a list of the
members of Congress to all of its membership and asked each one to write or
telephone their congressmen. Hundreds of angry letters and telephone calls
were received at the American Atheist GHQ during the next several months as
it became obvious that the elected Congress was composed entirely of
politicians too damn yellow to challenge Bush. In just one campaign
incident, American Atheists was able to teach thousands of the nation's
top-notch citizens that their government did not give a damn about them.
This exercise added appreciably to the malcontentedness in the nation and
rightly so.
American Atheists then sent every single columnist in the United States a
packet of information-- from Pat Buchanan to Jim Fain. Only one was
courageous enough to write a lengthy article on the matter: Tom Tiede. And
the newspapers in which Tiede was syndicated did print his column taking the
president to task. A little later, the CNN feature program "Larry King Live"
broadcast a quarter-hour interview with Mr. Robert Sherman, as he detailed
the perfidy of President Bush.
When George Bush appeared on the campus of the University of Texas on May
19, 1990, American Atheists placed a full-page advertisement in the Austin
American-Statesman detailing the above and demanding an apology and an
explanation. The founders of American Atheists, a thirty-year-old
organization, are both honorably discharged veterans: Richard E O'Hair, U.S.
Marines (totally and permanently disabled); and Madalyn O'Hair, Women's Army
Corps. Both served in World War II.
On December 23, 1990, in Chicago, Illinois Mr. Robert Sherman met with Ed
Derwinski, the secretary of the Department of Veteran's Affairs, to discuss
exclusion of American Atheists from veteran's groups which have been
chartered by the United States Congress. Mr. Derwinski said he would do
"absolutely nothing" about the discrimination. On January 3, Mr. Sherman
crossed paths with Ed Derwinski again at the Illinois inaugurations. He
asked Mr. Derwinski, at that time, what American Atheists could do to have
the Bush administration take an interest in the problem of discrimination
against American Atheist veterans. Mr. Derwinski's response was:
"What you should do for me is what you should do for everybody: Believe in
God. Get off our backs."
When Mr. Sherman was in Washington, D.C., on another issue on March 20,
1991, he again met with Mr. Derwinski, who, on this occasion, shouted that
the Atheists should "get off his back," that the Bush administration would
do nothing for them, and that they would need to "sue" to end discrimination
against them.
To add pointed insult to injury, the City of Chicago Commission on Human
Rights refused to permit American Atheist Veterans to appear as a group in
the Fourth of July "Welcome Home" parade for the veterans of Desert Storm in
that city.
In the corridors of American history, Atheists have loomed large: Clarence
Darrow, Margaret Sanger, Mark Twain, Henry Ford, Andrew Carnegie, Albert
Einstein, California's Governor Culbert L. Olson, Thomas Edison, the great
botanist Luther Burbank, and James Smithson, founder of the Smithsonian
Institution. The list is [can become very] long.
American Atheists ask that you write to George Bush, President of the United
States, at The White House, 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington, D.C. 20500
and ask him for an apology to this group which comprises 9 percent of the
population.
Copies of this brochure (order #8286) are available at the cost of ten cents
each from:
American Atheist Veterans
7215 Cameron Road, Austin TX 78752
-
"We are going to fight them and impose our will
on them and we will capture or, if necessary, kill
them until we have imposed law and order upon
this country,"
-- US Viceroy Paul Bremer,
how U$A is going to win 'hearts and minds'
of the subjugated people of Iraq
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| User: "Theodore A. Kaldis" |
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| Title: Re: G Bush Sr.: Sensible Position on Atheists |
28 Jun 2004 12:47:02 AM |
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"Vox [non] Populi" wrote:
Bush: No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor
should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.
Hear hear!
--
Theodore A. Kaldis
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: G Bush Sr.: Sensible Position on Atheists |
28 Jun 2004 06:34:42 AM |
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"Theodore A. Kaldis" <kaldis@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:40DFB0D6.4B38A7FC@worldnet.att.net...
"Vox [non] Populi" wrote:
Bush: No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens,
nor
should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.
Just another example of how sick Bush is...
Just like his :
"If this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier - just so
long I'm the dictator." December 18, 2001
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
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| User: "Soi Sensible" |
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| Title: Re: G Bush Sr.: Sensible Position on Atheists |
29 Jun 2004 11:05:19 AM |
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"Theodore A. Kaldis" <kaldis@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<40DFB0D6.4B38A7FC@worldnet.att.net>...
"Vox [non] Populi" wrote:
Bush: No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor
should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.
Hear hear!
Those aren't even the original words. The "under god" was added later.
Dumbass.
I'm sensible
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| User: "= Vox Populi ©" |
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| Title: Re: G Bush Sr.: Sensible Position on Atheists |
28 Jun 2004 01:10:57 AM |
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Theodore A. Kaldis wrote:
"Vox [non] Populi" wrote:
Bush: No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as
citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one
nation under God.
Hear hear!
Said the deaf man ...
PS: ***** your god and ***** what it stands for Ted.
Any questions?
--
the Jew Matthew Quoting the Jew Jesus
10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send
peace, but a sword.
10:35
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the
daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother
in law.
10:36
And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
10:37
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me:
and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
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| User: "Ken Smith" |
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| Title: Re: G Bush Sr.: Sensible Position on Atheists |
28 Jun 2004 09:07:45 AM |
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Theodore A. Kaldis wrote:
"Vox [non] Populi" wrote:
Bush: No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor
should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.
Hear hear!
.....saith the Bush Brownshirt Brigade.
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| User: "BTR1701" |
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| Title: Re: What do you swear in court if you are an aetheist? |
28 Jun 2004 09:53:41 AM |
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In article <vKNDc.584$E25.110267@news.uswest.net>, "=> Vox Populi ©"
<vox@popu.li> wrote:
BTR1701 wrote:
In article <egGDc.4355$ET2.2840@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com>,
<tock@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Then go through the trial. At that point, that gives you an awful
lot of influence over the outcome of things. If you think the
outcome isn't going the way you think it should, you could mention
something like, "Gee, judge (or Mr. Bailiff, or Mr. Defense lawyer,
does it really matter if I take those silly oaths, 'cause I didn't
'cause I'm an atheist." At that point, the case gets dismissed
because of a mistrial,
It would be a rare judge indeed who would grant a mistrial over
something so trivial. What would really happen is that you'd be kicked
off the jury and one of the alternates would take your place.
You would also get booted off the jury for speaking to the defense
attorney in an ex parte manner as you suggested.
So what do you think about the scumbag patriarch of your boss's criminal
family ?
Wow. Two hundred and eleven lines of crap that has absolutely nothing to
do with the topic under discussion.
I think that may be a personal record for you. Congratulations.
.
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| User: "Alun" |
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| Title: Re: What do you swear in court if you are an aetheist? |
28 Jun 2004 10:29:28 PM |
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BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in news:BTR1702-CA6081.10541328062004
@news.west.earthlink.net:
In article <vKNDc.584$E25.110267@news.uswest.net>, "=> Vox Populi ©"
<vox@popu.li> wrote:
BTR1701 wrote:
In article <egGDc.4355$ET2.2840@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com>,
<tock@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Then go through the trial. At that point, that gives you an awful
lot of influence over the outcome of things. If you think the
outcome isn't going the way you think it should, you could mention
something like, "Gee, judge (or Mr. Bailiff, or Mr. Defense lawyer,
does it really matter if I take those silly oaths, 'cause I didn't
'cause I'm an atheist." At that point, the case gets dismissed
because of a mistrial,
It would be a rare judge indeed who would grant a mistrial over
something so trivial. What would really happen is that you'd be kicked
off the jury and one of the alternates would take your place.
You would also get booted off the jury for speaking to the defense
attorney in an ex parte manner as you suggested.
So what do you think about the scumbag patriarch of your boss's criminal
family ?
Wow. Two hundred and eleven lines of crap that has absolutely nothing to
do with the topic under discussion.
I think that may be a personal record for you. Congratulations.
It was very illuminating, though. I didn't know that Bush Sr was bigotted
against us, and now I do.
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| User: "= Vox Populi ©" |
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| Title: Re: What do you swear in court if you are an aetheist? |
28 Jun 2004 11:15:28 PM |
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Alun wrote:
BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
news:BTR1702-CA6081.10541328062004 @news.west.earthlink.net:
In article <vKNDc.584$E25.110267@news.uswest.net>, "=> Vox Populi ©"
<vox@popu.li> wrote:
BTR1701 wrote:
In article <egGDc.4355$ET2.2840@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com>,
<tock@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Then go through the trial. At that point, that gives you an
awful lot of influence over the outcome of things. If you think
the outcome isn't going the way you think it should, you could
mention something like, "Gee, judge (or Mr. Bailiff, or Mr.
Defense lawyer, does it really matter if I take those silly
oaths, 'cause I didn't 'cause I'm an atheist." At that point, the
case gets dismissed because of a mistrial,
It would be a rare judge indeed who would grant a mistrial over
something so trivial. What would really happen is that you'd be
kicked off the jury and one of the alternates would take your
place.
You would also get booted off the jury for speaking to the defense
attorney in an ex parte manner as you suggested.
So what do you think about the scumbag patriarch of your boss's
criminal family ?
Wow. Two hundred and eleven lines of crap that has absolutely
nothing to do with the topic under discussion.
I think that may be a personal record for you. Congratulations.
It was very illuminating, though. I didn't know that Bush Sr was
bigotted against us, and now I do.
And BTR1701 worships and blindly serves the Criminal Bu$h Family ...
--
"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our
number one priority and we will not rest until we find him."
~ George Bush Jr. 2001-09-13
"I don't know where he (bin Laden) is. I have no idea and I really
don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
~ George Bush Jr. 2002-03-13
"I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to
get a deferment. Not was I willing to go to Canada. So I chose to
better myself by learning how to fly airplanes."
~George W. Bush on how he dodged the
Vietnam draft---1994
.
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| User: "= Vox Populi ©" |
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| Title: Re: What do you swear in court if you are an aetheist? |
28 Jun 2004 12:12:30 PM |
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BTR1701 wrote:
In article <vKNDc.584$E25.110267@news.uswest.net>, "=> Vox Populi ©"
<vox@popu.li> wrote:
BTR1701 wrote:
In article <egGDc.4355$ET2.2840@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com>,
<tock@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Then go through the trial. At that point, that gives you an awful
lot of influence over the outcome of things. If you think the
outcome isn't going the way you think it should, you could mention
something like, "Gee, judge (or Mr. Bailiff, or Mr. Defense lawyer,
does it really matter if I take those silly oaths, 'cause I didn't
'cause I'm an atheist." At that point, the case gets dismissed
because of a mistrial,
It would be a rare judge indeed who would grant a mistrial over
something so trivial. What would really happen is that you'd be
kicked off the jury and one of the alternates would take your place.
You would also get booted off the jury for speaking to the defense
attorney in an ex parte manner as you suggested.
So what do you think about the scumbag patriarch of your boss's
criminal family ?
Wow. Two hundred and eleven lines of crap that has absolutely nothing
to do with the topic under discussion.
Wow, the lenghts a coward sycophant like you will go to
deny the perversions and corruptions of your criminal
masters ...
When George Bush was campaigning for the presidency, as incumbent vice
president, one of his stops was in Chicago, Illinois, on August 27, 1987. At
O'Hare Airport he held a formal outdoor news conference. There Robert I.
Sherman, a reporter for the American Atheist news journal, fully accredited
by the state of Illinois and by invitation a participating member of the
press corps covering the national candidates had the following exchange with
then Vice President Bush.
Sherman: What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are
Atheists?
Bush: I guess I'm pretty weak in the Atheist community. Faith in god is
important to me.
Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of
Americans who are Atheists?
Bush: No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor
should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.
Sherman (somewhat taken aback): Do you support as a sound constitutional
principle the separation of state and church?
Bush: Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very
high on Atheists.
On October 29, 1988, Mr. Sherman had a confrontation with Ed Murnane,
cochairman of the Bush-Quayle '88 Illinois campaign. This concerned a
law-suit Mr. Sherman had filed to stop the Community Consolidated School
District 21 (Chicago, Illinois, suburb) from forcing his first-grade Atheist
son to pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States "one nation under
God" (Bush's phrase). The following conversation took place.
Sherman: American Atheists filed the Pledge of Allegiance lawsuit yesterday.
Does the Bush campaign have an official response to this filing?
Murnane: It's *****.
Sherman: What is *****?
Murnane: Everything that American Atheists does, Rob, is *****.
Sherman: Thank you for telling me what the official position of the Bush
campaign is on this issue.
Murnane: You're welcome
This suit, now in federal district court for over three years, is not
considered to be ***** by the federal judge before whom it is pending.
During the time it has been in the federal court, Robert Sherman's son, now
age nine, has been physically and psychologically brutalized in his school
for refusing to pledge to a "nation under God."
After Bush's election but before his taking office, American Atheists wrote
to Bush asking that he consider being sworn into office on the Constitution
instead of the Bible and also asking him to retract his August 1987
statement. Bush had his White House buddy, C. Boyden Gray, counsel to the
president, reply on White House stationery on February 21, 1989, stating
that substantively Bush stood by his original statement.
"As you are aware, the President is a religious man who neither supports
atheism nor believes that atheism should be unnecessarily encouraged or
supported by the government."
American Atheists had not asked Bush to either "unnecessarily" or even
"necessarily" encourage or support them. All they wanted was an apology for
the insult. Many Atheists wrote to Bush over the issue and Nelson Lund, the
associate counsel to the president, found it necessary to reply on April 7,
1989, directly to the American Atheist General Headquarters, Inc. This
letter from the White House said that Mr. Gray was adhering to his
statements in the February 21, 1989, letter. On May 4, 1989, Jon Murray,
the president of
American Atheists, again wrote to President Bush demanding a clarification
of and an apology for his statement that Atheists "should not be considered
as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots." Bush ignored the
letter, as did Gray and Lund. Mr. Murray also asked for an appointment so
that a group of representatives of American Atheists could meet with Bush.
Mr. Joseph W. Hagin 11 responded on May 25, 1989, again on White House
stationery. He stated that the president "appreciated your taking the time
to write and your willingness to share your thoughts" but that "due to heavy
commitments on his official calendar" the president could not meet with
representatives of American Atheists. On January 9, 1990, George Bush, in
signing a proclamation for the Martin Luther King holiday, had the gall to
remark that "bigots" must be brought to justice. Again, American Atheists
threw his words back in his face, asking what his designation of Atheists as
being unworthy of citizenship was. On February 5, 1990, Mr. Nelson Lund
replied again on White House stationery--stating
"We believe that our position has been adequately explained in previous
correspondence."
Indeed it has, and that position is that George Bush is a bigot.
On February 21, 1~90, American Atheists wrote to every member of the United
States Congress asking that body to pass a resolution condemning
discrimination against Atheists by any elected or appointed official of
government. The offered resolution read:
"No person in public life may be free to impugn the patriotism of any
minority group because of that group's opinion in respect to religion.
President George Bush is herewith censured for his public expression of
August 27, 1987, at which time he stated: 'I don't know that Atheists should
be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is
one nation under God.'"
You don't need to guess how many senators and representatives answered that
letter: there were none. At this point, American Atheists sent a list of the
members of Congress to all of its membership and asked each one to write or
telephone their congressmen. Hundreds of angry letters and telephone calls
were received at the American Atheist GHQ during the next several months as
it became obvious that the elected Congress was composed entirely of
politicians too damn yellow to challenge Bush. In just one campaign
incident, American Atheists was able to teach thousands of the nation's
top-notch citizens that their government did not give a damn about them.
This exercise added appreciably to the malcontentedness in the nation and
rightly so.
American Atheists then sent every single columnist in the United States a
packet of information-- from Pat Buchanan to Jim Fain. Only one was
courageous enough to write a lengthy article on the matter: Tom Tiede. And
the newspapers in which Tiede was syndicated did print his column taking the
president to task. A little later, the CNN feature program "Larry King Live"
broadcast a quarter-hour interview with Mr. Robert Sherman, as he detailed
the perfidy of President Bush.
When George Bush appeared on the campus of the University of Texas on May
19, 1990, American Atheists placed a full-page advertisement in the Austin
American-Statesman detailing the above and demanding an apology and an
explanation. The founders of American Atheists, a thirty-year-old
organization, are both honorably discharged veterans: Richard E O'Hair, U.S.
Marines (totally and permanently disabled); and Madalyn O'Hair, Women's Army
Corps. Both served in World War II.
On December 23, 1990, in Chicago, Illinois Mr. Robert Sherman met with Ed
Derwinski, the secretary of the Department of Veteran's Affairs, to discuss
exclusion of American Atheists from veteran's groups which have been
chartered by the United States Congress. Mr. Derwinski said he would do
"absolutely nothing" about the discrimination. On January 3, Mr. Sherman
crossed paths with Ed Derwinski again at the Illinois inaugurations. He
asked Mr. Derwinski, at that time, what American Atheists could do to have
the Bush administration take an interest in the problem of discrimination
against American Atheist veterans. Mr. Derwinski's response was:
"What you should do for me is what you should do for everybody: Believe in
God. Get off our backs."
When Mr. Sherman was in Washington, D.C., on another issue on March 20,
1991, he again met with Mr. Derwinski, who, on this occasion, shouted that
the Atheists should "get off his back," that the Bush administration would
do nothing for them, and that they would need to "sue" to end discrimination
against them.
To add pointed insult to injury, the City of Chicago Commission on Human
Rights refused to permit American Atheist Veterans to appear as a group in
the Fourth of July "Welcome Home" parade for the veterans of Desert Storm in
that city.
In the corridors of American history, Atheists have loomed large: Clarence
Darrow, Margaret Sanger, Mark Twain, Henry Ford, Andrew Carnegie, Albert
Einstein, California's Governor Culbert L. Olson, Thomas Edison, the great
botanist Luther Burbank, and James Smithson, founder of the Smithsonian
Institution. The list is [can become very] long.
American Atheists ask that you write to George Bush, President of the United
States, at The White House, 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington, D.C. 20500
and ask him for an apology to this group which comprises 9 percent of the
population.
I think that may be a personal record for you. Congratulations.
--
"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our
number one priority and we will not rest until we find him."
~ George Bush Jr. 2001-09-13
"I don't know where he (bin Laden) is. I have no idea and I really
don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
~ George Bush Jr. 2002-03-13
"I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to
get a deferment. Not was I willing to go to Canada. So I chose to
better myself by learning how to fly airplanes."
~George W. Bush on how he dodged the
Vietnam draft---1994
.
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| User: "BTR1701" |
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| Title: Re: What do you swear in court if you are an aetheist? |
28 Jun 2004 01:43:18 PM |
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In article <giYDc.28$ST3.26919@news.uswest.net>, "=> Vox Populi ©"
<vox@popu.li> wrote:
BTR1701 wrote:
In article <vKNDc.584$E25.110267@news.uswest.net>, "=> Vox Populi ©"
<vox@popu.li> wrote:
BTR1701 wrote:
In article <egGDc.4355$ET2.2840@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com>,
<tock@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Then go through the trial. At that point, that gives you an awful
lot of influence over the outcome of things. If you think the
outcome isn't going the way you think it should, you could mention
something like, "Gee, judge (or Mr. Bailiff, or Mr. Defense lawyer,
does it really matter if I take those silly oaths, 'cause I didn't
'cause I'm an atheist." At that point, the case gets dismissed
because of a mistrial,
It would be a rare judge indeed who would grant a mistrial over
something so trivial. What would really happen is that you'd be
kicked off the jury and one of the alternates would take your place.
You would also get booted off the jury for speaking to the defense
attorney in an ex parte manner as you suggested.
So what do you think about the scumbag patriarch of your boss's
criminal family ?
Wow. Two hundred and eleven lines of crap that has absolutely nothing
to do with the topic under discussion.
Wow, the lenghts a coward sycophant like you will go to
deny the perversions and corruptions of your criminal
masters ...
Yes, staying on the topic of the discussion is going to such "great
lengths".... riiiiight.
And there you go, posting it again as if that's gonna make any
difference. Are you autisitic, or something?
.
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| User: "abelard" |
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| Title: Re: What do you swear in court if you are an aetheist? |
28 Jun 2004 10:21:52 AM |
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On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 14:53:41 GMT, BTR1701 <BTR1702@ix.netcom.com>
typed:
In article <vKNDc.584$E25.110267@news.uswest.net>, "=> Vox Populi ©"
<vox@popu.li> wrote:
BTR1701 wrote:
In article <egGDc.4355$ET2.2840@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com>,
<tock@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Then go through the trial. At that point, that gives you an awful
lot of influence over the outcome of things. If you think the
outcome isn't going the way you think it should, you could mention
something like, "Gee, judge (or Mr. Bailiff, or Mr. Defense lawyer,
does it really matter if I take those silly oaths, 'cause I didn't
'cause I'm an atheist." At that point, the case gets dismissed
because of a mistrial,
It would be a rare judge indeed who would grant a mistrial over
something so trivial. What would really happen is that you'd be kicked
off the jury and one of the alternates would take your place.
You would also get booted off the jury for speaking to the defense
attorney in an ex parte manner as you suggested.
So what do you think about the scumbag patriarch of your boss's criminal
family ?
Wow. Two hundred and eleven lines of crap that has absolutely nothing to
do with the topic under discussion.
I think that may be a personal record for you. Congratulations.
re your header...you 'affirm'....you will be given a card with the
required form of words if you ask
it amounts to pretty much the same...
the right was won for you by the quakers...particularly george fox air
--
web site at www.abelard.org - news and comment service, logic,
energy, education, politics, etc >750,000 document calls yearly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
all that is necessary for [] walk quietly and carry
the triumph of evil is that [] a big stick.
good people do nothing [] trust actions not words
only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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| User: "Eric Pepke" |
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| Title: Re: What do you swear in court if you are an aetheist? |
27 Jun 2004 10:58:08 PM |
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"=> Vox Populi ©" <vox@popu.li> wrote in message news:<7hBDc.23$%M3.3631@news.uswest.net>...
I got to see a trial in Florida around 1974. The oath was, "I swear by the
penalties and punishment of perjury that what I say is the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth." Doesn't seem much of a deal for me.
However, in some jurisdictions in other states, you need to make advance
arrangements with the bailiff to do a non-religious oath.
.
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| User: "John M Price PhD" |
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| Title: Re: What do you swear in court if you are an aetheist? |
27 Jun 2004 02:32:37 PM |
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In alt.atheism article <7hBDc.23$%M3.3631@news.uswest.net> "=> Vox Populi ?" <vox@popu.li> wrote:
: Steven O. wrote:
: > Suppose I'm called into court to testify for some reason. If I inform
: > the judge, or his clerk, that I'm an aetheist,
: No need to do that. Just inform them you'll have nothing
: to do with their perverse, grotesque god superstitions and
: find the only good use for the holey babble is as an asswipe.
In CA, there are no bibles, and god isn't mentioned in most of the oathes
(YMMV depending on the age of the court officer doing the swearing).
'Do you swear to tell the whole truth, and nothing but the truth' is about
it. That might even be in the statutes.
(c) 2004. Copyright, John M. Price, PhD. All Rights Reserved.
Contents may not be republished in any form or medium without prior
written consent of the author with the express and only exception of
followup postings limited to and within usenet.
--
John M. Price, PhD
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal these words appear:
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
- Shelley
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| User: "= Vox Populi ©" |
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| Title: Re: What do you swear in court if you are an aetheist? |
27 Jun 2004 03:09:48 PM |
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John M Price PhD wrote:
In alt.atheism article <7hBDc.23$%M3.3631@news.uswest.net> "=> Vox
Populi ?" <vox@popu.li> wrote:
Steven O. wrote:
Suppose I'm called into court to testify for some reason. If I
inform
the judge, or his clerk, that I'm an aetheist,
No need to do that. Just inform them you'll have nothing
to do with their perverse, grotesque god superstitions and
find the only good use for the holey babble is as an asswipe.
In CA, there are no bibles, and god isn't mentioned in most of the
oathes (YMMV depending on the age of the court officer doing the
swearing).
'Do you swear to tell the whole truth, and nothing but the truth' is
about
it. That might even be in the statutes.
The problem is in the etymology of the word "swear" which
implies an oath before gaaaawd.
Better to use the word "affirm" ...
(c) 2004.
--
"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our
number one priority and we will not rest until we find him."
~ George Bush Jr. 2001-09-13
"I don't know where he (bin Laden) is. I have no idea and I really
don't care.
It's not that important. It's not our priority."
~ George Bush Jr. 2002-03-13
"I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to
get a
deferment. Not was I willing to go to Canada. So I chose to better
myself by
learning how to fly airplanes."
~George W. Bush on how he dodged the
Vietnam draft---1994
.
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| User: "AngryJohn" |
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| Title: Re: What do you swear in court if you are an aetheist? |
28 Jun 2004 10:14:29 PM |
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On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 09:01:10 -0600, "=> Vox Populi ©" <vox@popu.li>
wrote:
Steven O. wrote:
Suppose I'm called into court to testify for some reason. If I inform
the judge, or his clerk, that I'm an aetheist,
No need to do that. Just inform them you'll have nothing
to do with their perverse, grotesque god superstitions and
find the only good use for the holey babble is as an asswipe.
and object to swearing
under God's name, is there a provision for an alternate swearing?
Yes, affirm to tell the truth under penalty of perjury.
Would it vary from state to state, or in Federal court? Same question
for testifying before Congress, or whatever....
Steve O.
Steven AATT Domain DDOOTT com
To send an e-mail, substitute @ for AATT, a . for DDOOTT, and OpComm
for Domain
Does it matter what you swear or affirm to? Isn't perjury a crime no
matter whether you take an oath or not? Is perjury somehow tied to
taking an oath?
------------------------------
aa#2106
Remove Belief to reply
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: What do you swear in court if you are an aetheist? |
28 Jun 2004 10:53:11 PM |
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"AngryJohn" <AngryJohnBelief@AngryJohn.net> wrote in message
news:kgn1e0hfpplddf6mki6gnmqt99cdgg4prt@4ax.com...
On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 09:01:10 -0600, "=> Vox Populi ©" <vox@popu.li>
wrote:
Does it matter what you swear or affirm to? Isn't perjury a crime no
matter whether you take an oath or not? Is perjury somehow tied to
taking an oath?
Yes. In most cases there is no law against telling a lie so perjury only
applies when you have promised to tell the truth.
California Penal code:
118. (a) Every person who, having taken an oath that he or she will
testify, declare, depose, or certify truly before any competent
tribunal, officer, or person, in any of the cases in which the oath
may by law of the State of California be administered, willfully and
contrary to the oath, states as true any material matter which he or
she knows to be false, and every person who testifies, declares,
deposes, or certifies under penalty of perjury in any of the cases in
which the testimony, declarations, depositions, or certification is
permitted by law of the State of California under penalty of perjury
and willfully states as true any material matter which he or she
knows to be false, is guilty of perjury.
This subdivision is applicable whether the statement, or the
testimony, declaration, deposition, or certification is made or
subscribed within or without the State of California.
.
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| User: "AngryJohn" |
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| Title: Re: What do you swear in court if you are an aetheist? |
28 Jun 2004 11:33:56 PM |
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On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 03:53:11 GMT, "Mike Painter"
<mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
"AngryJohn" <AngryJohnBelief@AngryJohn.net> wrote in message
news:kgn1e0hfpplddf6mki6gnmqt99cdgg4prt@4ax.com...
On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 09:01:10 -0600, "=> Vox Populi ©" <vox@popu.li>
wrote:
Does it matter what you swear or affirm to? Isn't perjury a crime no
matter whether you take an oath or not? Is perjury somehow tied to
taking an oath?
Yes. In most cases there is no law against telling a lie so perjury only
applies when you have promised to tell the truth.
California Penal code:
118. (a) Every person who, having taken an oath that he or she will
testify, declare, depose, or certify truly before any competent
tribunal, officer, or person, in any of the cases in which the oath
may by law of the State of California be administered, willfully and
contrary to the oath, states as true any material matter which he or
she knows to be false, and every person who testifies, declares,
deposes, or certifies under penalty of perjury in any of the cases in
which the testimony, declarations, depositions, or certification is
permitted by law of the State of California under penalty of perjury
and willfully states as true any material matter which he or she
knows to be false, is guilty of perjury.
This subdivision is applicable whether the statement, or the
testimony, declaration, deposition, or certification is made or
subscribed within or without the State of California.
thanks
------------------------------
aa#2106
Remove Belief to reply
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| User: "LP" |
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| Title: Re: What do you swear in court if you are an aetheist? |
27 Jun 2004 04:09:08 PM |
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On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 09:01:10 -0600, "=> Vox Populi ©" <vox@popu.li>
wrote:
Steven O. wrote:
Suppose I'm called into court to testify for some reason. If I inform
the judge, or his clerk, that I'm an aetheist,
No need to do that. Just inform them you'll have nothing
to do with their perverse, grotesque god superstitions and
find the only good use for the holey babble is as an asswipe.
I don't know if there are any states in the USA that still require
this type of oath. The two states I am familiar with do not mention
any bible when taking an oath.
Has anyone reading this in the USA been to a court recently where
they used a bible as part of the swearing in process?
Has anyone reading this in any other country been to a court recently
where they used a bible as part of the swearing in process?
and object to swearing
under God's name, is there a provision for an alternate swearing?
Yes, affirm to tell the truth under penalty of perjury.
Would it vary from state to state, or in Federal court? Same question
for testifying before Congress, or whatever....
Steve O.
Steven AATT Domain DDOOTT com
To send an e-mail, substitute @ for AATT, a . for DDOOTT, and OpComm
for Domain
.
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| User: "Tom Adams" |
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| Title: Re: What do you swear in court if you are an aetheist? |
29 Jun 2004 08:31:31 AM |
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LP <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<b8dud0ti4k3fe73ppv1lcsiaapcqiilej1@4ax.com>...
On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 09:01:10 -0600, "=> Vox Populi ©" <vox@popu.li>
wrote:
Steven O. wrote:
Suppose I'm called into court to testify for some reason. If I inform
the judge, or his clerk, that I'm an aetheist,
No need to do that. Just inform them you'll have nothing
to do with their perverse, grotesque god superstitions and
find the only good use for the holey babble is as an asswipe.
I don't know if there are any states in the USA that still require
this type of oath. The two states I am familiar with do not mention
any bible when taking an oath.
Has anyone reading this in the USA been to a court recently where
they used a bible as part of the swearing in process?
Has anyone reading this in any other country been to a court recently
where they used a bible as part of the swearing in process?
Still used in NC.
A judge in Lexington, NC is trying to switch to a secular oath by
default, but he is getting lots of opposition:
http://www.journalnow.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WSJ%2FMGArticle%2FWSJ_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031776227094&path=!localnews!education&s=1037645509111
and object to swearing
under God's name, is there a provision for an alternate swearing?
Yes, affirm to tell the truth under penalty of perjury.
Would it vary from state to state, or in Federal court? Same question
for testifying before Congress, or whatever....
Steve O.
Steven AATT Domain DDOOTT com
To send an e-mail, substitute @ for AATT, a . for DDOOTT, and OpComm
for Domain
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| User: "The Jester" |
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| Title: Re: What do you swear in court if you are an aetheist? |
28 Jun 2004 01:29:27 PM |
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LP <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<b8dud0ti4k3fe73ppv1lcsiaapcqiilej1@4ax.com>...
On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 09:01:10 -0600, "=> Vox Populi ©" <vox@popu.li>
wrote:
Steven O. wrote:
Suppose I'm called into court to testify for some reason. If I inform
the judge, or his clerk, that I'm an aetheist,
No need to do that. Just inform them you'll have nothing
to do with their perverse, grotesque god superstitions and
find the only good use for the holey babble is as an asswipe.
I don't know if there are any states in the USA that still require
this type of oath. The two states I am familiar with do not mention
any bible when taking an oath.
Has anyone reading this in the USA been to a court recently where
they used a bible as part of the swearing in process?
Has anyone reading this in any other country been to a court recently
where they used a bible as part of the swearing in process?
Well, it was a little local court in rural PA about 5 years ago, but
yes.
Not only was a Bible used, but the oath itself ended with something
like, "in God's name, until that last great day, when we all stand in
his glory." Or something like that (the "until that last great day"
and "in his glory" stick in my head, the rest was something along
those lines.)
-The Jester, 774
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| User: "LP" |
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| Title: Re: What do you swear in court if you are an aetheist? |
28 Jun 2004 04:20:20 PM |
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On 28 Jun 2004 11:29:27 -0700, (The Jester)
wrote:
LP <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<b8dud0ti4k3fe73ppv1lcsiaapcqiilej1@4ax.com>...
On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 09:01:10 -0600, "=> Vox Populi ©" <vox@popu.li>
wrote:
Steven O. wrote:
Suppose I'm called into court to testify for some reason. If I inform
the judge, or his clerk, that I'm an aetheist,
No need to do that. Just inform them you'll have nothing
to do with their perverse, grotesque god superstitions and
find the only good use for the holey babble is as an asswipe.
I don't know if there are any states in the USA that still require
this type of oath. The two states I am familiar with do not mention
any bible when taking an oath.
Has anyone reading this in the USA been to a court recently where
they used a bible as part of the swearing in process?
Has anyone reading this in any other country been to a court recently
where they used a bible as part of the swearing in process?
Well, it was a little local court in rural PA about 5 years ago, but
yes.
Not only was a Bible used, but the oath itself ended with something
like, "in God's name, until that last great day, when we all stand in
his glory." Or something like that (the "until that last great day"
and "in his glory" stick in my head, the rest was something along
those lines.)
I wonder if that is also done in the bigger cities in Pennsylvania.
It doesn't surprise me to hear that the smaller towns are still dong
this. I would be surprised to hear of a large city courthouse where
the Bible oath is still being used.
There hasn't been many responses to this question.
Maybe I should post the question in alt.christianity where (according
to the statistics) there would be a higher number of people who had
recently been to court. : )
Atheist vs. Christian prison statistics:
http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm
http://www.skepticfiles.org/american/prison.htm
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| User: "J Forbes" |
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| Title: Re: What do you swear in court if you are an aetheist? |
30 Jun 2004 10:25:38 AM |
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LP wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 09:01:10 -0600, "=> Vox Populi ©" <vox@popu.li>
wrote:
I don't know if there are any states in the USA that still require
this type of oath. The two states I am familiar with do not mention
any bible when taking an oath.
Has anyone reading this in the USA been to a court recently where
they used a bible as part of the swearing in process?
Has anyone reading this in any other country been to a court recently
where they used a bible as part of the swearing in process?
I was on jury duty earlier this year in Bisbee, AZ. The
swearing in (for witnesses as well as the jury) was done
with bible and ended with "so help me god". At the jury
swearing in, just after everyone else said "I do" (or
whatever it was), I spoke up and said that I cannot swear
because I don't know what god is. The judge (a very
reasonable man) asked if I would affirm, and I said yes.
Later I got into a fun discussion with a highly religious
old lady on the jury about the god stuff. I was polite :)
She was the juror picked later as the alternate, so was
not in deliberation. We found the guy guilty of possessing
drugs for sale. An interesting experience.
--
Jim
Visit the Selectric Typewriter Museum at it's new home!
http://www.selectric.org
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