Religions > Atheism > Re: What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us! (was Re: Why Modern Society Wages War On Church)
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"mountain man" |
| Date: |
22 Feb 2006 06:21:12 AM |
| Object: |
Re: What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us! (was Re: Why Modern Society Wages War On Church) |
"mountain man" <hobbit@southern_seaweed.com.op> wrote in message news:...
"Bonnie B" <bonnieb@fifismaxi.pad> footnoted in message
news:gnvmv156b0j4alpvps8ibq76kifu2gm70v@fe04.buzzardnews.com...
"What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!"
Pope Leo X
See further, quoted from Alexander VI (1492-1503),
not Leo X (1513-1521) ...
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/e3996ce3b1b34bba?hl=en
==========[Extract]========================
Well, the quotation, as given, is, indeed, documented -- but it is from
Alexander VI (1492-1503), not Leo X (1513-1521). The original can be found
in Johannes Burchard, <Johannis Burchardi Argentinensis Capelle Pontificie
Sacrorum Rituum Magistri Diarium, sive Rerum Urbanarum Commentarii
(1483-1506)>, edited by L Thuasne, 3 vols. (Paris: E. Leroux, 1883-1885).
I think you will find the passage near the front of volume three, in the
material Burchard records on the Jubilee of 1500.
==========[/Extract]========================
--
Pete Brown
www.mountainman.com.au/essenes
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| User: "Bonnie B" |
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| Title: Re: What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us! (was Re: Why Modern Society Wages War On Church) |
22 Feb 2006 02:03:35 PM |
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On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 12:21:12 GMT, the faaaaabulous supreme deity
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, Ruler of the heavens and host of fab parties,
opened the heavens and shone his light upon the wisdom of "mountain
man" <hobbit@southern_seaweed.com.op>
"mountain man" <hobbit@southern_seaweed.com.op> wrote in message news:...
"Bonnie B" <bonnieb@fifismaxi.pad> footnoted in message
news:gnvmv156b0j4alpvps8ibq76kifu2gm70v@fe04.buzzardnews.com...
"What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!"
Pope Leo X
See further, quoted from Alexander VI (1492-1503),
not Leo X (1513-1521) ...
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/e3996ce3b1b34bba?hl=en
==========[Extract]========================
Well, the quotation, as given, is, indeed, documented -- but it is from
Alexander VI (1492-1503), not Leo X (1513-1521). The original can be found
in Johannes Burchard, <Johannis Burchardi Argentinensis Capelle Pontificie
Sacrorum Rituum Magistri Diarium, sive Rerum Urbanarum Commentarii
(1483-1506)>, edited by L Thuasne, 3 vols. (Paris: E. Leroux, 1883-1885).
I think you will find the passage near the front of volume three, in the
material Burchard records on the Jubilee of 1500.
And then we have:
"Of course, Burchard's portrait of Alexander is highly unflattering,
since he did not advance in his career under the Borgia pope -- so his
commentary must be taken with a grain of salt."
Oops. Perhaps merely an oversight on your part, rather than a
deliberate attempt to appear more learned or what have you.
Nice cite, but your source even admits that the source of the cite
can't be trusted for accuracy.
So, why did you leave that bit out?
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| User: "mountain man" |
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| Title: Re: What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us! (was Re: Why Modern Society Wages War On Church) |
22 Feb 2006 05:53:44 PM |
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"Bonnie B" <bonnieb@fifismaxi.pad> wrote in message
news:n4gpv19g4klornv3mervdga8k08gq2r4nb@fe04.buzzardnews.com...
On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 12:21:12 GMT, the faaaaabulous supreme deity
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, Ruler of the heavens and host of fab parties,
opened the heavens and shone his light upon the wisdom of "mountain
man" <hobbit@southern_seaweed.com.op>
"mountain man" <hobbit@southern_seaweed.com.op> wrote in message news:...
"Bonnie B" <bonnieb@fifismaxi.pad> footnoted in message
news:gnvmv156b0j4alpvps8ibq76kifu2gm70v@fe04.buzzardnews.com...
"What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!"
Pope Leo X
See further, quoted from Alexander VI (1492-1503),
not Leo X (1513-1521) ...
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/e3996ce3b1b34bba?hl=en
==========[Extract]========================
Well, the quotation, as given, is, indeed, documented -- but it is from
Alexander VI (1492-1503), not Leo X (1513-1521). The original can be found
in Johannes Burchard, <Johannis Burchardi Argentinensis Capelle Pontificie
Sacrorum Rituum Magistri Diarium, sive Rerum Urbanarum Commentarii
(1483-1506)>, edited by L Thuasne, 3 vols. (Paris: E. Leroux, 1883-1885).
I think you will find the passage near the front of volume three, in the
material Burchard records on the Jubilee of 1500.
And then we have:
"Of course, Burchard's portrait of Alexander is highly unflattering,
since he did not advance in his career under the Borgia pope -- so his
commentary must be taken with a grain of salt."
Oops. Perhaps merely an oversight on your part, rather than a
deliberate attempt to appear more learned or what have you.
Nice cite, but your source even admits that the source of the cite
can't be trusted for accuracy.
So, why did you leave that bit out?
I am an ascii conservative from way back.
An extract is an extract, and the full article
I am happy to see you found, so noone is
at a loss, it would appear.
--
Pete Brown
www.mountainman.com.au
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| User: "Bonnie B" |
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| Title: Re: What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us! (was Re: Why Modern Society Wages War On Church) |
22 Feb 2006 06:22:09 PM |
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On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 23:53:44 GMT, the faaaaabulous supreme deity
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, Ruler of the heavens and host of fab parties,
opened the heavens and shone his light upon the wisdom of "mountain
man" <hobbit@southern_seaweed.com.op>
"Bonnie B" <bonnieb@fifismaxi.pad> wrote in message
news:n4gpv19g4klornv3mervdga8k08gq2r4nb@fe04.buzzardnews.com...
On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 12:21:12 GMT, the faaaaabulous supreme deity
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, Ruler of the heavens and host of fab parties,
opened the heavens and shone his light upon the wisdom of "mountain
man" <hobbit@southern_seaweed.com.op>
"mountain man" <hobbit@southern_seaweed.com.op> wrote in message news:...
"Bonnie B" <bonnieb@fifismaxi.pad> footnoted in message
news:gnvmv156b0j4alpvps8ibq76kifu2gm70v@fe04.buzzardnews.com...
"What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!"
Pope Leo X
See further, quoted from Alexander VI (1492-1503),
not Leo X (1513-1521) ...
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/e3996ce3b1b34bba?hl=en
==========[Extract]========================
Well, the quotation, as given, is, indeed, documented -- but it is from
Alexander VI (1492-1503), not Leo X (1513-1521). The original can be found
in Johannes Burchard, <Johannis Burchardi Argentinensis Capelle Pontificie
Sacrorum Rituum Magistri Diarium, sive Rerum Urbanarum Commentarii
(1483-1506)>, edited by L Thuasne, 3 vols. (Paris: E. Leroux, 1883-1885).
I think you will find the passage near the front of volume three, in the
material Burchard records on the Jubilee of 1500.
And then we have:
"Of course, Burchard's portrait of Alexander is highly unflattering,
since he did not advance in his career under the Borgia pope -- so his
commentary must be taken with a grain of salt."
Oops. Perhaps merely an oversight on your part, rather than a
deliberate attempt to appear more learned or what have you.
Nice cite, but your source even admits that the source of the cite
can't be trusted for accuracy.
So, why did you leave that bit out?
I am an ascii conservative from way back.
An extract is an extract, and the full article
I am happy to see you found, so noone is
at a loss, it would appear.
Well, aardvark concrete, window cat blue.
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| User: "Roger Pearse" |
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| Title: Re: What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us! (was Re: Why Modern Society Wages War On Church) |
22 Feb 2006 02:09:10 PM |
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mountain man wrote:
"mountain man" <hobbit@southern_seaweed.com.op> wrote in message news:...
"Bonnie B" <bonnieb@fifismaxi.pad> footnoted in message
news:gnvmv156b0j4alpvps8ibq76kifu2gm70v@fe04.buzzardnews.com...
"What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!"
Pope Leo X
See further, quoted from Alexander VI (1492-1503),
not Leo X (1513-1521) ...
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/e3996ce3b1b34bba?hl=en
==========[Extract]========================
Well, the quotation, as given, is, indeed, documented -- but it is from
Alexander VI (1492-1503), not Leo X (1513-1521). The original can be found
in Johannes Burchard, <Johannis Burchardi Argentinensis Capelle Pontificie
Sacrorum Rituum Magistri Diarium, sive Rerum Urbanarum Commentarii
(1483-1506)>, edited by L Thuasne, 3 vols. (Paris: E. Leroux, 1883-1885).
I think you will find the passage near the front of volume three, in the
material Burchard records on the Jubilee of 1500.
==========[/Extract]========================
This information is incorrect. After seeing this post (to which I
responded in that thread) I examined Thuasne, and looked through it for
every mention of the word 'Christ' in the text dealing with the year
1500 (which sounds hard, but there were fewer than one might suppose).
None of them contained this 'quotation.'
However J.P.Holding has tracked it down to some fiction by John Bale:
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/popeleox.html
All the best,
Roger Pearse
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| User: "mountain man" |
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| Title: Re: What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us! (was Re: Why Modern Society Wages War On Church) |
22 Feb 2006 05:53:43 PM |
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"Roger Pearse" <roger_pearse@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1140638950.507068.138590@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
mountain man wrote:
"mountain man" <hobbit@southern_seaweed.com.op> wrote in message news:...
"Bonnie B" <bonnieb@fifismaxi.pad> footnoted in message
news:gnvmv156b0j4alpvps8ibq76kifu2gm70v@fe04.buzzardnews.com...
"What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!"
Pope Leo X
See further, quoted from Alexander VI (1492-1503),
not Leo X (1513-1521) ...
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/soc.history.ancient/msg/e3996ce3b1b34bba?hl=en
==========[Extract]========================
Well, the quotation, as given, is, indeed, documented -- but it is from
Alexander VI (1492-1503), not Leo X (1513-1521). The original can be
found
in Johannes Burchard, <Johannis Burchardi Argentinensis Capelle
Pontificie
Sacrorum Rituum Magistri Diarium, sive Rerum Urbanarum Commentarii
(1483-1506)>, edited by L Thuasne, 3 vols. (Paris: E. Leroux, 1883-1885).
I think you will find the passage near the front of volume three, in the
material Burchard records on the Jubilee of 1500.
==========[/Extract]========================
This information is incorrect. After seeing this post (to which I
responded in that thread) I examined Thuasne, and looked through it for
every mention of the word 'Christ' in the text dealing with the year
1500 (which sounds hard, but there were fewer than one might suppose).
None of them contained this 'quotation.'
It reminds me of the task in sourcing the words attributed to Chief
Seattle, which I had first read in, of all things, an Irish newspaper,
but which later were found to be attributable to a playright:
http://www.mountainman.com.au/thechief.html
Perhaps it is elsewhere, or perhaps it does not exist,
or perhaps it no longer exists. You have taken the trail
along further, so I thank you.
However J.P.Holding has tracked it down to some fiction by John Bale:
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/popeleox.html
The conclusion of the above article actually points back to
your earlier contributions in the matter, concluding:
"Note, 7/05: Tekton Research Assistant "Punkish" brought
our attention to a discussion here between Roger Pearse and
another person who claimed the source of the quote as
Pope Alexander VI"
Best wishes,
--
Pete Brown
www.mountainman.com.au
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us! (was Re: Why Modern Society Wages War On Church) |
22 Feb 2006 08:33:45 PM |
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However J.P.Holding has tracked it down to some fiction by John Bale:
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/popeleox.html
Good research Roger
I guess people who believe
in nothing, will fall for anything.
Regards,
Jim
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| User: "Pierre" |
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| Title: Re: What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us! (was Re: Why Modern Society Wages War On Church) |
23 Feb 2006 10:12:59 AM |
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".. the fable of Jesus Christ"
If there was no historical Jesus, it would be a myth (not in the popular
sense but in the sense the Joseph Campbell used the word), not a fable. A
myth can be just as useful for the individual and for civilization as a
historical reality, and perhap more. A fable is like a child's fairy tale,
but myths that people live by are extremely valuable and perhaps even
essential to human life. Trying to live life by following the example of
Jesus Christ as he is perceived by Catholics achieves much the same thing on
earth for both the individual and society in general no matter whether Jesus
really existed or not. What it does after life is another matter, but nobody
can know that. When it comes to an afterlife, we can only speculate
ourselves or believe other people's speculations.
Peter
<jwsheffield@satx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1140662025.613356.218530@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
However J.P.Holding has tracked it down to some fiction by John Bale:
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/popeleox.html
Good research Roger
I guess people who believe
in nothing, will fall for anything.
Regards,
Jim
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us! (was Re: Why Modern Society Wages War On Church) |
27 Feb 2006 11:58:27 AM |
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On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 11:12:59 -0500, "Pierre" <nospam@anonymous.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
".. the fable of Jesus Christ"
If there was no historical Jesus, it would be a myth (not in the popular
sense but in the sense the Joseph Campbell used the word), not a fable. A
myth can be just as useful for the individual and for civilization as a
historical reality, and perhap more. A fable is like a child's fairy tale,
but myths that people live by are extremely valuable and perhaps even
essential to human life.
So witches should be put to the 'question' and then burned.
Trying to live life by following the example of
Jesus Christ as he is perceived by Catholics achieves much the same thing on
earth for both the individual and society in general no matter whether Jesus
really existed or not.
Let's see; fear-mongering, coercion, threats, slavery, paedophelia,
false witness, bigotry, ignorance, prejudice, hypocrisy, and more are
not what I would consider good.
What it does after life is another matter, but nobody
can know that. When it comes to an afterlife, we can only speculate
ourselves or believe other people's speculations.
What *afterlife* would that be?
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a cornucopia of splinters.
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| User: "VtSkier" |
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| Title: Re: What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us! (was Re:Why Modern Society Wages War On Church) |
23 Feb 2006 03:54:36 PM |
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Pierre wrote:
".. the fable of Jesus Christ"
If there was no historical Jesus, it would be a myth (not in the popular
sense but in the sense the Joseph Campbell used the word), not a fable. A
myth can be just as useful for the individual and for civilization as a
historical reality, and perhap more. A fable is like a child's fairy tale,
but myths that people live by are extremely valuable and perhaps even
essential to human life. Trying to live life by following the example of
Jesus Christ as he is perceived by Catholics achieves much the same thing on
earth for both the individual and society in general no matter whether Jesus
really existed or not. What it does after life is another matter, but nobody
can know that. When it comes to an afterlife, we can only speculate
ourselves or believe other people's speculations.
Peter
Seems to me that there may not be a lot of difference between
fable and myth. Myths are generally taken as truth by a group
and are considered words to live by. They give moral credence
to the lifestyle of the group.
A fable, on the other hand, a fable is known to be concocted
as a story for entertainment while also giving moral credence
or imparting a moral lesson for the group.
It would seem to me further, that if someone wanted to deny
Christianity, using the word that implies that the story is
known to be made up adds a perjoritive bit to his statement.
If he had said "...the myth of Jesus Christ", he would be
implying that most people (in Christendom) believed that story
of Jesus was true.
Or maybe there wasn't that big a difference between the words
at the time they were written...
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| User: "Pierre" |
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| Title: Re: What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us! (was Re: Why Modern Society Wages War On Church) |
23 Feb 2006 04:50:21 PM |
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"VtSkier" <VtSkier@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:466p8vF9nmmaU1@individual.net...
Pierre wrote:
".. the fable of Jesus Christ"
If there was no historical Jesus, it would be a myth (not in the popular
sense but in the sense the Joseph Campbell used the word), not a fable. A
myth can be just as useful for the individual and for civilization as a
historical reality, and perhap more. A fable is like a child's fairy
tale, but myths that people live by are extremely valuable and perhaps
even essential to human life. Trying to live life by following the
example of Jesus Christ as he is perceived by Catholics achieves much the
same thing on earth for both the individual and society in general no
matter whether Jesus really existed or not. What it does after life is
another matter, but nobody can know that. When it comes to an afterlife,
we can only speculate ourselves or believe other people's speculations.
Peter
Seems to me that there may not be a lot of difference between
fable and myth. Myths are generally taken as truth by a group
and are considered words to live by. They give moral credence
to the lifestyle of the group.
A fable, on the other hand, a fable is known to be concocted
as a story for entertainment while also giving moral credence
or imparting a moral lesson for the group.
It would seem to me further, that if someone wanted to deny
Christianity, using the word that implies that the story is
known to be made up adds a perjoritive bit to his statement.
If he had said "...the myth of Jesus Christ", he would be
implying that most people (in Christendom) believed that story
of Jesus was true.
Or maybe there wasn't that big a difference between the words
at the time they were written...
1) You're using the word "myth" in its common every day sense instead of its
philosophical or theological sense, and
2) You accept the "fable" that Pope Leo or Alexander actually said that
about the "Christ fable".
Pierre
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| User: "Bonnie B." |
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| Title: Re: What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us! (was Re: Why Modern Society Wages War On Church) |
23 Feb 2006 05:12:50 PM |
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On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 17:50:21 -0500, the faaaaabulous supreme deity
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, Ruler of the heavens and host of fab parties,
opened the heavens and shone his light upon the wisdom of "Pierre"
<nospam@anonymous.com>
the "fable" that Pope Leo or Alexander actually said that
about the "Christ fable".
And your proof of that is what, exactly?
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| User: "Martin Edwards" |
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| Title: Re: What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us! (was Re:Why Modern Society Wages War On Church) |
23 Feb 2006 09:37:51 AM |
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wrote:
However J.P.Holding has tracked it down to some fiction by John Bale:
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/popeleox.html
Good research Roger
I guess people who believe
in nothing, will fall for anything.
Regards,
Jim
If you can get as far as the actual argument in that load of drivel, you
are a better man than I. The writer says he lives outside Area 51.
Only just outside, I imagine.
--
You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause - Chico Marx
www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955
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| User: "Martin Edwards" |
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| Title: Re: What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us! (was Re:Why Modern Society Wages War On Church) |
24 Feb 2006 10:50:02 AM |
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Martin Edwards wrote:
jwsheffield@satx.rr.com wrote:
However J.P.Holding has tracked it down to some fiction by John Bale:
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/popeleox.html
Good research Roger
I guess people who believe
in nothing, will fall for anything.
Regards,
Jim
If you can get as far as the actual argument in that load of drivel, you
are a better man than I. The writer says he lives outside Area 51. Only
just outside, I imagine.
Eventually I did wade through to the argument. Apparently a Catholic
apostate called John Bale included it in a play; but he was a Protestant
at the time of writing: why would he want to claim that it was a myth?
--
You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause - Chico Marx
www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us! (was Re: Why Modern Society Wages War On Church) |
27 Feb 2006 11:54:55 AM |
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On 22 Feb 2006 18:33:45 -0800, wrote in
alt.atheism
However J.P.Holding has tracked it down to some fiction by John Bale:
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/popeleox.html
Good research Roger
I guess people who believe
in nothing, will fall for anything.
You mean once one swallows the Christian superstition, or another, all
other cons are simplicity itself to swallow-oh liar for jayzus.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a cornucopia of splinters.
.
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