| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
04 Sep 2007 05:15:03 PM |
| Object: |
Re: When did Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians? |
Approximately A.D. 61-63.
Some have stated the letter dates back earlier to the imprisonment in
Caesarea.
Since the early 19th century, much of critical scholarship has
considered the letter's style and use of words, its concept of the
church, and other points of doctrine put forward by the writer as
grounds for serious doubt about authorship by Paul. The letter may
then be the work of a secretary writing at the apostle's direction or
of a later disciple who sought to develop Paul's ideas for a new
situation around A.D. 80-100.
.
|
|
| User: "Darrell Stec" |
|
| Title: Re: When did Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians? |
04 Sep 2007 09:04:04 PM |
|
|
wrote:
Approximately A.D. 61-63.
Some have stated the letter dates back earlier to the imprisonment in
Caesarea.
Since the early 19th century, much of critical scholarship has
considered the letter's style and use of words, its concept of the
church, and other points of doctrine put forward by the writer as
grounds for serious doubt about authorship by Paul. The letter may
then be the work of a secretary writing at the apostle's direction or
of a later disciple who sought to develop Paul's ideas for a new
situation around A.D. 80-100.
Can you provide evidence, any evidence other than wishful thinking and blind
faith, that any Epistle was written prior to 135 CE?
--
Later,
Darrell Stec
Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
.
|
|
|
| User: "Greywolf" |
|
| Title: Re: When did Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians? |
04 Sep 2007 10:41:50 PM |
|
|
"Darrell Stec" <darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote in message
news:46de0ffc$0$4082$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
vivapadrepio@aol.com wrote:
Approximately A.D. 61-63.
Some have stated the letter dates back earlier to the imprisonment in
Caesarea.
Since the early 19th century, much of critical scholarship has
considered the letter's style and use of words, its concept of the
church, and other points of doctrine put forward by the writer as
grounds for serious doubt about authorship by Paul. The letter may
then be the work of a secretary writing at the apostle's direction or
of a later disciple who sought to develop Paul's ideas for a new
situation around A.D. 80-100.
Can you provide evidence, any evidence other than wishful thinking and
blind
faith, that any Epistle was written prior to 135 CE?
--
Later,
Darrell Stec
Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
I'm sorry to have to admit I've forgotten quite a bit in regards to the
Pauline Epistles. I had a quite good biblical research home library that was
destroyed three years ago. And had copious notes regarding some 'juicy'
details in regards to the bible. But that was then and now is now. Sufficed
to say that the real 'heavyweight' scholars date the Letter to the Ephesians
between 58 and 62 C. E. The cross-checking of the early church fathers and
'internal' information gleaned over the years makes the aforementioned
dating pretty solid. 135 is far too late a date.
Believe you me it is both frustrating and heartbreaking as all Hell not to
be able to provide you with rock-solid reasons why the 'big-boys' date
Ephesians so early.
Here's a link to one site that you may find worth a look-see:
http://www.errantskeptics.org/DatingNT.htm
Ughhhh. This was painful. I've forgotten so much it is bringing me down. E.
P. Sanders is a towering, if controversial, specialist when it comes to
Pauline literature. He's worth checking out.
Greywolf
.
|
|
|
| User: "Darrell Stec" |
|
| Title: Re: When did Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians? |
05 Sep 2007 06:08:12 PM |
|
|
Greywolf wrote:
"Darrell Stec" <darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote in message
news:46de0ffc$0$4082$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
vivapadrepio@aol.com wrote:
Approximately A.D. 61-63.
Some have stated the letter dates back earlier to the imprisonment in
Caesarea.
Since the early 19th century, much of critical scholarship has
considered the letter's style and use of words, its concept of the
church, and other points of doctrine put forward by the writer as
grounds for serious doubt about authorship by Paul. The letter may
then be the work of a secretary writing at the apostle's direction or
of a later disciple who sought to develop Paul's ideas for a new
situation around A.D. 80-100.
Can you provide evidence, any evidence other than wishful thinking and
blind
faith, that any Epistle was written prior to 135 CE?
--
Later,
Darrell Stec
Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
I'm sorry to have to admit I've forgotten quite a bit in regards to the
Pauline Epistles. I had a quite good biblical research home library that
was destroyed three years ago. And had copious notes regarding some
'juicy' details in regards to the bible. But that was then and now is now.
Sufficed to say that the real 'heavyweight' scholars date the Letter to
the Ephesians between 58 and 62 C. E. The cross-checking of the early
church fathers and 'internal' information gleaned over the years makes the
aforementioned dating pretty solid. 135 is far too late a date.
Believe you me it is both frustrating and heartbreaking as all Hell not to
be able to provide you with rock-solid reasons why the 'big-boys' date
Ephesians so early.
Here's a link to one site that you may find worth a look-see:
http://www.errantskeptics.org/DatingNT.htm
I'm sorry but that site is entirely useless. And do you know why? It is
because they do not give any evidence for their explanation. It is because
everyone listed in regards to the Epistles is a Christian with a
prestigious position at Christian Seminary or of Christian studies at a
prestigious university with something to lose if the books of the bible
were demonstated to be a second century phenomenon, because it would show
that the story of the hero is just that a story, a fable. It is because a
good many of those "experts" listed were 19th century experts and have
missed more than a 100 years of new manuscript and archaeological evidence.
It is missing the entire Thurbinger and Dutch schools of experts who not
only provide verse by verse evidence of the Epistles lateness but also show
my they are not the work of one man.
Ughhhh. This was painful. I've forgotten so much it is bringing me down.
E. P. Sanders is a towering, if controversial, specialist when it comes to
Pauline literature. He's worth checking out.
E.P. Sanders was not listed in reference to any Epistle. And he is to be
included for all the reasons listed above.
Ask youself who was the first to mention the Pauline Epistles and use
extracts of them? And more importantly WHEN was that first mention of
Paul's Epistles?
The best conclusive INTERNAL evidence of which those experts speak is one
phrase in one sentence among all the verses of all the epistles. And
remember Paul himself declares he is capable of lying to spread the faith.
Greywolf
--
Later,
Darrell Stec
Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
.
|
|
|
| User: "John McComb" |
|
| Title: Re: When did Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians? |
05 Sep 2007 10:02:26 PM |
|
|
Darrell Stec wrote:
I'm sorry but that site is entirely useless. And do you know why? It is
because they do not give any evidence for their explanation. It is because
everyone listed in regards to the Epistles is a Christian with a
prestigious position at Christian Seminary or of Christian studies at a
prestigious university with something to lose if the books of the bible
were demonstated to be a second century phenomenon, because it would show
that the story of the hero is just that a story, a fable. It is because a
good many of those "experts" listed were 19th century experts and have
missed more than a 100 years of new manuscript and archaeological evidence.
Really? Now there's an interesting twist. Experts can't be trusted
because the very fact that they were interested enough to devote their
lives to becoming experts proves they have a vested interest in being
taken seriously. Excuse me while I stand up and applaud.
It is missing the entire Thurbinger and Dutch schools of experts who not
only provide verse by verse evidence of the Epistles lateness but also show
my they are not the work of one man.
Thurbinger and Dutch schools, eh? Why do I get the feeling that you're
just making this up as you go along. Oh well, never mind. There's no
question that there are plenty of 'scholars' out there who are dedicated
to muddying clear waters.
But just a minute now. Can these experts from the Thurbinger and Dutch
schools be trusted? Don't they have a vested interest in having their
agenda taken seriously?
Ask youself who was the first to mention the Pauline Epistles and use
extracts of them? And more importantly WHEN was that first mention of
Paul's Epistles?
The first? Ooh! That's a hard question. That would take a lot of
research and exact dates would probably not be forthcoming. However
if you want an example, read the following excerpt from the epistle
of Ignatius to the Ephesians written sometime in the 1st century.
It actually quotes the epistle. Ignatius was a contemporary of Paul
and a disciple of John:
And indeed Onesimus himself greatly commends your good order in God,
that ye all live according to the truth, and that no sect ‘has any
dwelling-place among you. Nor indeed do ye hearken to any one rather
than to Jesus Christ, the true Shepherd and Teacher. And ye are, as
Paul wrote to you, “one body and one spirit, because ye have also been
called in one hope of the faith.48 Since also “there is one Lord, one
faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all, and
through all, and in all.”49 Such, then, are ye, having been taught by
such instructors, Paul the Christ-bearer, and Timothy the most
faithful.
Roberts, A., Donaldson, J., & Coxe, A. C. 1997.
The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol.I
The best conclusive INTERNAL evidence of which those experts speak is one
phrase in one sentence among all the verses of all the epistles. And
remember Paul himself declares he is capable of lying to spread the faith.
Would you mind providing me with a reference for that last statement
please.
Yours in Christ
John
.
|
|
|
| User: "Darrell Stec" |
|
| Title: Re: When did Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians? |
05 Sep 2007 11:24:15 PM |
|
|
John McComb wrote:
Darrell Stec wrote:
I'm sorry but that site is entirely useless. And do you know why? It is
because they do not give any evidence for their explanation. It is
because everyone listed in regards to the Epistles is a Christian with a
prestigious position at Christian Seminary or of Christian studies at a
prestigious university with something to lose if the books of the bible
were demonstated to be a second century phenomenon, because it would show
that the story of the hero is just that a story, a fable. It is because
a good many of those "experts" listed were 19th century experts and have
missed more than a 100 years of new manuscript and archaeological
evidence.
Really? Now there's an interesting twist. Experts can't be trusted
because the very fact that they were interested enough to devote their
lives to becoming experts proves they have a vested interest in being
taken seriously. Excuse me while I stand up and applaud.
They were already brainwashed before they began their studies. They just
set out to reinforce their own beliefs. And both their jobs and prestige
depend upon maintaining the party line.
It is missing the entire Thurbinger and Dutch schools of experts who not
only provide verse by verse evidence of the Epistles lateness but also
show my they are not the work of one man.
Thurbinger and Dutch schools, eh? Why do I get the feeling that you're
just making this up as you go along.
Because you are stupid and never studied either school, nor bothered
learning the languages of scripture?
Oh well, never mind. There's no
question that there are plenty of 'scholars' out there who are dedicated
to muddying clear waters.
But just a minute now. Can these experts from the Thurbinger and Dutch
schools be trusted? Don't they have a vested interest in having their
agenda taken seriously?
No because they stated what they found. And for the most part suffered for
it. They might have maintained their prestige if they towed the party
line. But then this conversation is senseless because you have no idea who
those groups are and have amply demonstrated your ignorance.
Ask youself who was the first to mention the Pauline Epistles and use
extracts of them? And more importantly WHEN was that first mention of
Paul's Epistles?
The first? Ooh! That's a hard question. That would take a lot of
research and exact dates would probably not be forthcoming.
Johnnie, you are an idiot. It is well known that Marcion was the first to
mention Paul and provide some Epistles of his. Why do you dabble in such
topics when others of us have had a formal education in it?
However
if you want an example, read the following excerpt from the epistle
of Ignatius to the Ephesians written sometime in the 1st century.
Ignatius was a contemporary of Polycarp and was said to have been martyred
in the second half of the second century CE.
It actually quotes the epistle. Ignatius was a contemporary of Paul
and a disciple of John:
He could not have been a contemporary of Paul unless Paul was as I have
maintained a second century writer. You have thus confirmed what I wrote
but stupidly put Ignatius in the wrong century.
And indeed Onesimus himself greatly commends your good order in God,
that ye all live according to the truth, and that no sect ?has any
dwelling-place among you. Nor indeed do ye hearken to any one rather
than to Jesus Christ, the true Shepherd and Teacher. And ye are, as
Paul wrote to you, ?one body and one spirit, because ye have also been
called in one hope of the faith.?48 Since also ?there is one Lord, one
faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all, and
through all, and in all.??49 Such, then, are ye, having been taught by
such instructors, Paul the Christ-bearer, and Timothy the most
faithful.
Roberts, A., Donaldson, J., & Coxe, A. C. 1997.
The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol.I
That is rather a vague "quote" even in English. How far off do you think
the Greek is? Do you think that just because Ignatius has a few words in
common with the Pauline Epistles, he is quoting from them? Do you realize
the earliest copies of Ignatius dates from the 13th century CE, and almost
all subsequent copies (including the one from the 13th century were and are
in the hands of the Roman Catholic Church)?
The best conclusive INTERNAL evidence of which those experts speak is one
phrase in one sentence among all the verses of all the epistles. And
remember Paul himself declares he is capable of lying to spread the
faith.
Would you mind providing me with a reference for that last statement
please.
What evidence do you have to the contrary? To make matters worse, the vast
majority of scholars consider that one phrase to be a later interpolation.
You are saying there is internal evidence for the Pauline Epistles having
been written in the third quarter of the first century. I say there is but
one uncertain one. Your positive assertion requires evidence. If you even
know what that evidence is it will have included the one I remarked upon.
Seeing that you have to ask what my one point is, demonstrates that you do
not know what any of that internal evidence is and betrays your ignorance
on the subject matter.
Yours in Christ
John
--
Later,
Darrell Stec
Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
.
|
|
|
| User: "John McComb" |
|
| Title: Re: When did Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians? |
06 Sep 2007 12:05:35 AM |
|
|
Darrell Stec wrote:
remember Paul himself declares he is capable of lying to spread the
faith.
Would you mind providing me with a reference for that last statement
please.
What evidence do you have to the contrary? To make matters worse, the vast
majority of scholars consider that one phrase to be a later interpolation.
You are saying there is internal evidence for the Pauline Epistles having
been written in the third quarter of the first century. I say there is but
one uncertain one. Your positive assertion requires evidence. If you even
know what that evidence is it will have included the one I remarked upon.
Seeing that you have to ask what my one point is, demonstrates that you do
not know what any of that internal evidence is and betrays your ignorance
on the subject matter.
Well kid, now that we're all clear that you haven't got a clue what
you're talking about we might as well forgo this pretense that you are
educated in anything but Internet surfing and comic books and drop it.
However I would like an answer to this last question. I wasn't
challenging you for evidence of anything. I was simply asking you to
direct me to the reference where Paul said that he was capable of
lying to spread the faith. That shouldn't be too hard.
Yours in Christ
John
.
|
|
|
| User: "Darrell Stec" |
|
| Title: Re: When did Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians? |
06 Sep 2007 01:11:18 AM |
|
|
John McComb wrote:
Darrell Stec wrote:
remember Paul himself declares he is capable of lying to spread the
faith.
Would you mind providing me with a reference for that last statement
please.
What evidence do you have to the contrary? To make matters worse, the
vast majority of scholars consider that one phrase to be a later
interpolation. You are saying there is internal evidence for the Pauline
Epistles having
been written in the third quarter of the first century. I say there is
but
one uncertain one. Your positive assertion requires evidence. If you
even know what that evidence is it will have included the one I remarked
upon. Seeing that you have to ask what my one point is, demonstrates that
you do not know what any of that internal evidence is and betrays your
ignorance on the subject matter.
Well kid, now that we're all clear that you haven't got a clue what
you're talking about we might as well forgo this pretense that you are
educated in anything but Internet surfing and comic books and drop it.
OK fundie, perhaps you can show your education by answering a couple of
questions every fundie in the last 10 years has avoided. It is obvious you
sidestepped the request to show the evidence for dating the Pauline
Epistles. Here are the questions (and I know for a fact you will give some
reason for avoiding them or perhaps pretend you never saw them):
**********
How does one determine which might deceive the reader:
vayosef af-adonai lakharot beyisrael vayaset et-david bahem lemor lekh mene
et-yisrael veet-yehuda
OR THIS
vayaamod satan al-yisrael vayaset et-david limnot et-yisrael
**********
Can you explain what we should do:
lo-taasu avel bamishpat lo-tisa fenei-dal velo tehdarpenei gadol betsedek
tishpot amitekha
OR THIS
me krinete ina me krithete
**********
Which of these is the basis of Christian belief and which do you believe:
hos de an blasphemese eis to pneuma to hagion ouk echei aphesin eis ton
aiona all enochos estin aioniou kriseos
OR THIS
in hoc omnis qui credit iustificatur
OR THIS
horate toinun oti ex ergon dikaioutai anthropos kai ouk ek pisteos monon
OR THIS
te gar chariti este sesosmenoi dia tes pisteos kai touto ouk ex humon theou
to doron ouk ex ergon hina me tis kauchesetai
**********
However I would like an answer to this last question. I wasn't
challenging you for evidence of anything. I was simply asking you to
direct me to the reference where Paul said that he was capable of
lying to spread the faith. That shouldn't be too hard.
If that is your question then it is obvious you haven't read Paul at all.
But OK here it is:
???????? ???? ????????? ??????? ??? ???? ???????? ??????? ???? ????? ??????
????? ??? ?????? ????? ????
I thought you meant about the one phrase that scholars use to date Paul's
works.
Yours in Christ
John
--
Later,
Darrell Stec
Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
.
|
|
|
| User: "John McComb" |
|
| Title: Re: When did Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians? |
08 Sep 2007 12:12:06 AM |
|
|
Darrell Stec wrote:
OK fundie, perhaps you can show your education by answering a couple of
questions every fundie in the last 10 years has avoided. It is obvious you
sidestepped the request to show the evidence for dating the Pauline
Epistles. Here are the questions (and I know for a fact you will give some
reason for avoiding them or perhaps pretend you never saw them):
Fundie. Heh, heh. Anyway, you know perfectly well that I didn't
sidestep anything. I provided you with a passage from a first
century document that directly quoted Paul and you responded with
some immature wisecracks, some unsupported allegations that Paul's
epistles were penned by a first century heretic, some false dates
based on the fact that Ignatius was a contemporary of Polycarp, a
man who was also a contemporary of Paul and a disciple of John and
a denial that the text quoted Paul when it says right in the text
that he is quoting Paul. In truth you're the one who hasn't provided
a shred of evidence supporting anything that you've said. Well, that's
o.k. with me. I really don't care if you do or you don't.
Epistles. Here are the questions (and I know for a fact you will give some
reason for avoiding them or perhaps pretend you never saw them):
Oh right. I've seen you spamming newsgroups with this silly game.
Well, I don't really want to play. No offense but I don't really
like discussing theology with people who are wholly motivated to
remain ignorant of the meaning of scripture. However, if there's
any chance that the spam will go away if I spoil the milk I'll
provide the references for those who don't have the tools or the
inclination to find them.
How does one determine which might deceive the reader:
2 Sam 24:1
OR THIS
1 Cron 21:1
**********
Can you explain what we should do:
Lev 19:15
OR THIS
Luke 6:37
**********
Which of these is the basis of Christian belief and which do you believe:
Mark 3:29
OR THIS
Acts 13:39
OR THIS
James 2:24
OR THIS
Eph 2:8,9
If that is your question then it is obvious you haven't read Paul at all.
But OK here it is:
???????? ???? ????????? ??????? ??? ???? ???????? ??????? ???? ????? ??????
????? ??? ?????? ????? ????
If you want to post Greek then you need to set your browser to Unicode.
But never mind. The moments been spoiled anyway.
Yours in Christ
John
.
|
|
|
| User: "Darrell Stec" |
|
| Title: Re: When did Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians? |
08 Sep 2007 01:12:46 AM |
|
|
John McComb wrote:
Darrell Stec wrote:
OK fundie, perhaps you can show your education by answering a couple of
questions every fundie in the last 10 years has avoided. It is obvious
you sidestepped the request to show the evidence for dating the Pauline
Epistles. Here are the questions (and I know for a fact you will give
some reason for avoiding them or perhaps pretend you never saw them):
Fundie. Heh, heh. Anyway, you know perfectly well that I didn't
sidestep anything. I provided you with a passage from a first
century document that directly quoted Paul and you responded with
some immature wisecracks, some unsupported allegations that Paul's
epistles were penned by a first century heretic,
I said no such thing. In fact I have never maintained in these newsgroups
that Paul was first century.
some false dates
based on the fact that Ignatius was a contemporary of Polycarp, a
man who was also a contemporary of Paul and a disciple of John and
a denial that the text quoted Paul when it says right in the text
that he is quoting Paul.
Ignatius is second century as was Polycarp. Damn, that is such a simple
fact to confirm. And we have nothing by Ignatius nor Polycarp. We have
later people supposedly quoting them and those are 1000 year old copies.
In truth you're the one who hasn't provided
a shred of evidence supporting anything that you've said. Well, that's
o.k. with me. I really don't care if you do or you don't.
Why quote a source for such a well know fact of when Ignatius and Polycarp
lived. Hell, you can find that information in the highly biased Catholic
Lives of the Saints.
Epistles. Here are the questions (and I know for a fact you will give
some reason for avoiding them or perhaps pretend you never saw them):
Oh right. I've seen you spamming newsgroups with this silly game.
I don't invoke "spamming newsgroups" I subscribe to a very few. In this
particular case alt.atheism. Fault those who added the other groups to the
discussion. Since I do not know from which group a post originates I do
not doctor the headings. And I notice you didn't actually answer the
questions.
Well, I don't really want to play. No offense but I don't really
like discussing theology with people who are wholly motivated to
remain ignorant of the meaning of scripture.
That seems to highlight your case rather than mine. My formal education
included theology and languages of scripture. You on the other hand are
playing with an empty deck. But congratulations on your successful use of
a Google search engine in at least figuring out what verses I used. Still
you didn't answer the questions.
However, if there's
any chance that the spam will go away if I spoil the milk I'll
provide the references for those who don't have the tools or the
inclination to find them.
How does one determine which might deceive the reader:
2 Sam 24:1
OR THIS
1 Cron 21:1
**********
Can you explain what we should do:
Lev 19:15
OR THIS
Luke 6:37
**********
Which of these is the basis of Christian belief and which do you believe:
Mark 3:29
OR THIS
Acts 13:39
OR THIS
James 2:24
OR THIS
Eph 2:8,9
You didn't answer the questions.
If that is your question then it is obvious you haven't read Paul at all.
But OK here it is:
???????? ???? ????????? ??????? ??? ???? ???????? ??????? ???? ?????
?????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ????
If you want to post Greek then you need to set your browser to Unicode.
But never mind. The moments been spoiled anyway.
What an idiot. I do not use a browser to post to newsgroups so it makes no
difference what character set I use (actually UTF8) and I don't use a
browser to read newsgroups either.
If the fonts did not show, it is because they were filtered out within the
cataloging process.
Yours in Christ
John
--
Later,
Darrell Stec
Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
.
|
|
|
| User: "John McComb" |
|
| Title: Re: When did Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians? |
08 Sep 2007 01:35:50 AM |
|
|
Darrell Stec wrote:
What an idiot. I do not use a browser to post to newsgroups so it makes no
difference what character set I use (actually UTF8) and I don't use a
browser to read newsgroups either.
I beg your pardon. I meant news reader. That's what I use and it's
really very simple. See below and please note the citation.
20 και εγενομην τοις ιουδαιοις ως ιουδαιος ινα ιουδαιους κερδησω τοις
υπο νομον ως υπο νομον μη ων αυτος υπο νομον ινα τους υπο νομον κερδησω
21 τοις ανομοις ως ανομος μη ων ανομος θεου αλλ εννομος χριστου ινα
κερδανω τους ανομους
22 εγενομην τοις ασθενεσιν ασθενης ινα τους ασθενεις κερδησω τοις πασιν
γεγονα παντα ινα παντως τινας σωσω
1 Cor 9:20-22
Westcott and Hort GNT
Yours in Christ
John
.
|
|
|
| User: "Darrell Stec" |
|
| Title: Re: When did Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians? |
08 Sep 2007 02:30:39 AM |
|
|
John McComb wrote:
Darrell Stec wrote:
What an idiot. I do not use a browser to post to newsgroups so it makes
no difference what character set I use (actually UTF8) and I don't use a
browser to read newsgroups either.
I beg your pardon. I meant news reader. That's what I use and it's
really very simple. See below and please note the citation.
20 και εγενομην τοις ιουδαιοις ως ιουδαιος ινα ιουδαιους κερδησω τοις
υπο νομον ως υπο νομον μη ων αυτος υπο νομον ινα τους υπο νομον κερδησω
21 τοις ανομοις ως ανομος μη ων ανομος θεου αλλ εννομος χριστου ινα
κερδανω τους ανομους
22 εγενομην τοις ασθενεσιν ασθενης ινα τους ασθενεις κερδησω τοις πασιν
γεγονα παντα ινα παντως τινας σωσω
1 Cor 9:20-22
Westcott and Hort GNT
Yours in Christ
Which Christ, the king, the donkey or the loaf of bread?
John
Ok, you are right. It appears that some of my newsreader setting have been
changed, the character set among them.
--
Later,
Darrell Stec
Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: When did Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians? |
08 Sep 2007 03:02:55 AM |
|
|
On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 06:35:50 GMT, John McComb
<Gotta_lose@this_spam.com> wrote:
Darrell Stec wrote:
What an idiot. I do not use a browser to post to newsgroups so it makes no
difference what character set I use (actually UTF8) and I don't use a
browser to read newsgroups either.
I beg your pardon. I meant news reader. That's what I use and it's
really very simple. See below and please note the citation.
20 ??? ???????? ???? ????????? ?? ???????? ??? ????????? ??????? ????
??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???????
21 ???? ??????? ?? ?????? ?? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ??????? ??????? ???
??????? ???? ???????
22 ???????? ???? ????????? ??????? ??? ???? ???????? ??????? ???? ?????
?????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ????
1 Cor 9:20-22
Westcott and Hort GNT
Yours in Christ
His mouth or his *****?
John
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Darrell Stec" |
|
| Title: Re: When did Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians? |
06 Sep 2007 11:51:11 AM |
|
|
Darrell Stec wrote:
However I would like an answer to this last question. I wasn't
challenging you for evidence of anything. I was simply asking you to
direct me to the reference where Paul said that he was capable of
lying to spread the faith. That shouldn't be too hard.
If that is your question then it is obvious you haven't read Paul at all.
But OK here it is:
???????? ???? ????????? ??????? ??? ???? ???????? ??????? ???? ?????
?????? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ????
Sorry about that. Apparently the Greek font did not show up once the post
was published. Here it is transliterated:
kai egenomen tois ioudaiois hos ioudaios hina ioudaious kerdeso tois hupo
nomon hos hupo nomon me hon autos hupo nomon hina tous hupo nomon kerdeso
tois anomois hos anomos me on anomos theou all ennomos Christou hina
kerdano tous anomous egenomen tois asthenesin asthenes hina tous astheneis
kerdeso tois pasin gegona panta hina pantos tinas soso
Plainly Paul admits to shenanigans.
--
Later,
Darrell Stec
Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
.
|
|
|
| User: "John McComb" |
|
| Title: Re: When did Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians? |
08 Sep 2007 12:36:18 AM |
|
|
Darrell Stec wrote:
Sorry about that. Apparently the Greek font did not show up once the post
was published. Here it is transliterated:
kai egenomen tois ioudaiois hos ioudaios hina ioudaious kerdeso tois hupo
nomon hos hupo nomon me hon autos hupo nomon hina tous hupo nomon kerdeso
tois anomois hos anomos me on anomos theou all ennomos Christou hina
kerdano tous anomous egenomen tois asthenesin asthenes hina tous astheneis
kerdeso tois pasin gegona panta hina pantos tinas soso
Plainly Paul admits to shenanigans.
Oh, o.k. Thank you so much for the transliteration. You know, a
simple bible reference would be perfectly acceptable. 1 Cor 9:20-22.
You see,... short, sweet and to the point. I realize that posting
transliterated text with no references probably does instill awe in
one or two of our more gullible fellow posters but, come on, while
it does take a little bit of skill for the reader to find the
references, any 16 year old kid with an ISP can post this stuff.
Your Hebrew transliterations could use a little work by the way.
Anyway, This scripture doesn't say anything of the sort. However,
that's not the reason I asked. If you want to go around saying that
it does, then be my guest.
The reason I brought it up is because you say that Paul said it, based
on what's written in this epistle. So, if 1 Cor 9 was penned by Paul,
as you assert, and Paul, who I'm sure you'll agree was martyred prior
to 70 AD, then I take it you concede that at least one of the epistles
was composed before 135 AD.
Yours in Christ
John
.
|
|
|
| User: "Darrell Stec" |
|
| Title: Re: When did Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians? |
08 Sep 2007 01:23:02 AM |
|
|
John McComb wrote:
Darrell Stec wrote:
Sorry about that. Apparently the Greek font did not show up once the
post
was published. Here it is transliterated:
kai egenomen tois ioudaiois hos ioudaios hina ioudaious kerdeso tois hupo
nomon hos hupo nomon me hon autos hupo nomon hina tous hupo nomon kerdeso
tois anomois hos anomos me on anomos theou all ennomos Christou hina
kerdano tous anomous egenomen tois asthenesin asthenes hina tous
astheneis kerdeso tois pasin gegona panta hina pantos tinas soso
Plainly Paul admits to shenanigans.
Oh, o.k. Thank you so much for the transliteration. You know, a
simple bible reference would be perfectly acceptable. 1 Cor 9:20-22.
I suppose you like the KJV? I think the Greek was more to the point.
You see,... short, sweet and to the point. I realize that posting
transliterated text with no references probably does instill awe in
one or two of our more gullible fellow posters but, come on, while
it does take a little bit of skill for the reader to find the
references, any 16 year old kid with an ISP can post this stuff.
Your Hebrew transliterations could use a little work by the way.
Actually both the Hebrew and Greek transliteration are perfectly acceptable
though alternate ones. They are used to prevent exactly what you just
did -- use Google to figure out what they were. And you are the first
pretender to have actually figured out what the verses were though you
avoided answering the questions.
Anyway, This scripture doesn't say anything of the sort.
It most certainly does. It says the writer using the name of Paul will lie
and pretend to be anything and everything to promote his cause. There is
not other reading possible.
However,
that's not the reason I asked. If you want to go around saying that
it does, then be my guest.
The reason I brought it up is because you say that Paul said it, based
on what's written in this epistle. So, if 1 Cor 9 was penned by Paul,
I did not mean a specific Paul only a particular school who wrote the core
of what many mainstream scholar consider authentic Pauline.
as you assert, and Paul, who I'm sure you'll agree was martyred prior
to 70 AD,
I do not even think Paul existed. There certainly is no evidence he did.
And especially no evidence his works were created in the first century CE.
Sorry but with all the Christian martyrs, they are fabrications.
then I take it you concede that at least one of the epistles
was composed before 135 AD.
No internal nor external evidence.
Yours in Christ
John
--
Later,
Darrell Stec
Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
.
|
|
|
| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: When did Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians? |
08 Sep 2007 02:41:15 AM |
|
|
On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 02:23:02 -0400, Darrell Stec
<darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote:
John McComb wrote:
Darrell Stec wrote:
Sorry about that. Apparently the Greek font did not show up once the
post
was published. Here it is transliterated:
kai egenomen tois ioudaiois hos ioudaios hina ioudaious kerdeso tois hupo
nomon hos hupo nomon me hon autos hupo nomon hina tous hupo nomon kerdeso
tois anomois hos anomos me on anomos theou all ennomos Christou hina
kerdano tous anomous egenomen tois asthenesin asthenes hina tous
astheneis kerdeso tois pasin gegona panta hina pantos tinas soso
Plainly Paul admits to shenanigans.
Oh, o.k. Thank you so much for the transliteration. You know, a
simple bible reference would be perfectly acceptable. 1 Cor 9:20-22.
I suppose you like the KJV? I think the Greek was more to the point.
Or is it that he cannot read Greek? ;)
:
.
|
|
|
| User: "Darrell Stec" |
|
| Title: Re: When did Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians? |
08 Sep 2007 03:46:25 AM |
|
|
Michael Gray wrote:
On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 02:23:02 -0400, Darrell Stec
<darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote:
John McComb wrote:
Darrell Stec wrote:
Sorry about that. Apparently the Greek font did not show up once the
post
was published. Here it is transliterated:
kai egenomen tois ioudaiois hos ioudaios hina ioudaious kerdeso tois
hupo nomon hos hupo nomon me hon autos hupo nomon hina tous hupo nomon
kerdeso tois anomois hos anomos me on anomos theou all ennomos Christou
hina kerdano tous anomous egenomen tois asthenesin asthenes hina tous
astheneis kerdeso tois pasin gegona panta hina pantos tinas soso
Plainly Paul admits to shenanigans.
Oh, o.k. Thank you so much for the transliteration. You know, a
simple bible reference would be perfectly acceptable. 1 Cor 9:20-22.
I suppose you like the KJV? I think the Greek was more to the point.
Or is it that he cannot read Greek? ;)
:
But he can as he has shown us cut and paste it into Google to get a
reference. I do have to commend him as being the first Fundie in the 10+
years to ever do that. Of course we saw that even after finding out what
the passages were, he didn't answer the questions. But I do think he
should be commended for at least trying.
Now if only he might be prompted to think about what he reads then.... No
that would be asking too much.
--
Later,
Darrell Stec
Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: When did Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians? |
08 Sep 2007 01:23:37 AM |
|
|
On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 05:36:18 GMT, John McComb
<Gotta_lose@this_spam.com> wrote:
Darrell Stec wrote:
Sorry about that. Apparently the Greek font did not show up once the post
was published. Here it is transliterated:
kai egenomen tois ioudaiois hos ioudaios hina ioudaious kerdeso tois hupo
nomon hos hupo nomon me hon autos hupo nomon hina tous hupo nomon kerdeso
tois anomois hos anomos me on anomos theou all ennomos Christou hina
kerdano tous anomous egenomen tois asthenesin asthenes hina tous astheneis
kerdeso tois pasin gegona panta hina pantos tinas soso
Plainly Paul admits to shenanigans.
Oh, o.k. Thank you so much for the transliteration. You know, a
simple bible reference would be perfectly acceptable. 1 Cor 9:20-22.
You see,... short, sweet and to the point. I realize that posting
transliterated text with no references probably does instill awe in
one or two of our more gullible fellow posters but, come on, while
it does take a little bit of skill for the reader to find the
references, any 16 year old kid with an ISP can post this stuff.
Your Hebrew transliterations could use a little work by the way.
In what way?
Please do not hesitate to be precise and to the point.
Anyway, This scripture doesn't say anything of the sort. However,
that's not the reason I asked. If you want to go around saying that
it does, then be my guest.
The reason I brought it up is because you say that Paul said it, based
on what's written in this epistle. So, if 1 Cor 9 was penned by Paul,
as you assert, and Paul, who I'm sure you'll agree was martyred prior
to 70 AD, then I take it you concede that at least one of the epistles
was composed before 135 AD.
Yours in Christ
John
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: When did Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians? |
06 Sep 2007 03:56:45 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 02:11:18 -0400, Darrell Stec
<darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote:
John McComb wrote:
Darrell Stec wrote:
remember Paul himself declares he is capable of lying to spread the
faith.
Would you mind providing me with a reference for that last statement
please.
What evidence do you have to the contrary? To make matters worse, the
vast majority of scholars consider that one phrase to be a later
interpolation. You are saying there is internal evidence for the Pauline
Epistles having
been written in the third quarter of the first century. I say there is
but
one uncertain one. Your positive assertion requires evidence. If you
even know what that evidence is it will have included the one I remarked
upon. Seeing that you have to ask what my one point is, demonstrates that
you do not know what any of that internal evidence is and betrays your
ignorance on the subject matter.
Well kid, now that we're all clear that you haven't got a clue what
you're talking about we might as well forgo this pretense that you are
educated in anything but Internet surfing and comic books and drop it.
OK fundie, perhaps you can show your education by answering a couple of
questions every fundie in the last 10 years has avoided. It is obvious you
sidestepped the request to show the evidence for dating the Pauline
Epistles. Here are the questions (and I know for a fact you will give some
reason for avoiding them or perhaps pretend you never saw them):
:
This should as boring as all the other loud-mouthed theists who have
managed to 'not receive' your challenge, for some bizarre internet
related failure connected exclusively with this "challenge"!!!
I wonder what Johnny-boy's excuse will be?
Most do not bother to offer one, and choose to ignore the revelation
of their abject ignorance that you so amply forward.
Well, Johnny-boy?
As you are so self-professedly learned, what are the answers?
Or have you realised the limits of your erudtition, such as it is?
Or, perhaps, maybe, you have concluded that you are talking out of
your backside on matters biblical?
Should I ask that in Hebrew?
Or Aramaic?
Or Greek?
Or Latin?
The bibles were not written in English, I hope you know.
(Or Perhaps you don't)
.
|
|
|
| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: When did Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians? |
06 Sep 2007 12:01:49 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 18:26:45 +0930, Michael Gray
<mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote:
The bibles were not written in English, I hope you know.
(Or Perhaps you don't)
You mean the Fundamentalist claims that Jesus himself used the KJV
aren't true?
<where's that crowbar - my tongue seems to be stuck>
.
|
|
|
| User: "Darrell Stec" |
|
| Title: Re: When did Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians? |
06 Sep 2007 12:52:17 PM |
|
|
Al Klein wrote:
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 18:26:45 +0930, Michael Gray
<mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote:
The bibles were not written in English, I hope you know.
(Or Perhaps you don't)
You mean the Fundamentalist claims that Jesus himself used the KJV
aren't true?
<where's that crowbar - my tongue seems to be stuck>
Everybody knows the KJV was translated back into Aramaic for Jesus and his
disciples.
--
Later,
Darrell Stec
Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
.
|
|
|
| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: When did Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians? |
06 Sep 2007 04:09:13 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:52:17 -0400, Darrell Stec
<darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote:
Al Klein wrote:
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 18:26:45 +0930, Michael Gray
<mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote:
The bibles were not written in English, I hope you know.
(Or Perhaps you don't)
You mean the Fundamentalist claims that Jesus himself used the KJV
aren't true?
<where's that crowbar - my tongue seems to be stuck>
Everybody knows the KJV was translated back into Aramaic for Jesus and his
disciples.
And then sent back in time, huh?
What about the story that Jesus was an alien in a human meat suit, and
he was sky high on pain killers when he was on the cross?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Darrell Stec" |
|
| Title: Re: When did Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians? |
06 Sep 2007 07:55:58 PM |
|
|
Al Klein wrote:
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:52:17 -0400, Darrell Stec
<darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote:
Al Klein wrote:
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 18:26:45 +0930, Michael Gray
<mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote:
The bibles were not written in English, I hope you know.
(Or Perhaps you don't)
You mean the Fundamentalist claims that Jesus himself used the KJV
aren't true?
<where's that crowbar - my tongue seems to be stuck>
Everybody knows the KJV was translated back into Aramaic for Jesus and his
disciples.
And then sent back in time, huh?
What about the story that Jesus was an alien in a human meat suit, and
he was sky high on pain killers when he was on the cross?
Well Mark says he was offered wine mixed with myrrh which is a psychotropic
ingredient and more costly than gold. This parallels Seneca's play. Seems
as though the others didn't want to copy that part with Matthew offering
cheap wine with a poison often translated as gall.
--
Later,
Darrell Stec
Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: When did Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians? |
06 Sep 2007 03:49:25 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 05:05:35 GMT, John McComb
<Gotta_lose@this_spam.com> wrote:
Darrell Stec wrote:
remember Paul himself declares he is capable of lying to spread the
faith.
Would you mind providing me with a reference for that last statement
please.
What evidence do you have to the contrary? To make matters worse, the vast
majority of scholars consider that one phrase to be a later interpolation.
You are saying there is internal evidence for the Pauline Epistles having
been written in the third quarter of the first century. I say there is but
one uncertain one. Your positive assertion requires evidence. If you even
know what that evidence is it will have included the one I remarked upon.
Seeing that you have to ask what my one point is, demonstrates that you do
not know what any of that internal evidence is and betrays your ignorance
on the subject matter.
Well kid, now that we're all clear that you haven't got a clue what
you're talking about we might as well forgo this pretense that you are
educated in anything but Internet surfing and comic books and drop it.
Are you joking???
Have you bothered to find out his qualifications?
I shal, here and now, wager you a hundred thousand dollars (Aus), that
Darryl is more learned in biblical scholarship than you could ever
hope to become.
I predict that you will refuse to accept the wager, and further
predict that you proffer the most pathetic excuses for chickening out
of it.
However I would like an answer to this last question. I wasn't
challenging you for evidence of anything. I was simply asking you to
direct me to the reference where Paul said that he was capable of
lying to spread the faith. That shouldn't be too hard.
Yours in Christ
That says it all...
John
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: When did Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians? |
05 Sep 2007 10:08:27 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 03:02:26 GMT, John McComb
<Gotta_lose@this_spam.com> wrote:
Darrell Stec wrote:
I'm sorry but that site is entirely useless. And do you know why? It is
because they do not give any evidence for their explanation. It is because
everyone listed in regards to the Epistles is a Christian with a
prestigious position at Christian Seminary or of Christian studies at a
prestigious university with something to lose if the books of the bible
were demonstated to be a second century phenomenon, because it would show
that the story of the hero is just that a story, a fable. It is because a
good many of those "experts" listed were 19th century experts and have
missed more than a 100 years of new manuscript and archaeological evidence.
Really? Now there's an interesting twist. Experts can't be trusted
because the very fact that they were interested enough to devote their
lives to becoming experts proves they have a vested interest in being
taken seriously. Excuse me while I stand up and applaud.
Have trouble reading for comprehension?
What part of "they do not give any evidence for their explanation"
didn't you understand?
It is missing the entire Thurbinger and Dutch schools of experts who not
only provide verse by verse evidence of the Epistles lateness but also show
my they are not the work of one man.
Thurbinger and Dutch schools, eh? Why do I get the feeling that you're
just making this up as you go along. Oh well, never mind. There's no
question that there are plenty of 'scholars' out there who are dedicated
to muddying clear waters.
Do they give evidence for their explanation?
But just a minute now. Can these experts from the Thurbinger and Dutch
schools be trusted? Don't they have a vested interest in having their
agenda taken seriously?
It's all about evidenciarly support for what they say.
What a strange concept.
Perhaps people who can't think for themselves, believe what experts
say just because they're experts. But the rest of us need to know
_Why_ they reach their conclusions.
Ask youself who was the first to mention the Pauline Epistles and use
extracts of them? And more importantly WHEN was that first mention of
Paul's Epistles?
The first? Ooh! That's a hard question. That would take a lot of
research and exact dates would probably not be forthcoming. However
if you want an example, read the following excerpt from the epistle
of Ignatius to the Ephesians written sometime in the 1st century.
It actually quotes the epistle. Ignatius was a contemporary of Paul
and a disciple of John:
And indeed Onesimus himself greatly commends your good order in God,
that ye all live according to the truth, and that no sect has any
dwelling-place among you. Nor indeed do ye hearken to any one rather
than to Jesus Christ, the true Shepherd and Teacher. And ye are, as
Paul wrote to you, one body and one spirit, because ye have also been
called in one hope of the faith.?48 Since also there is one Lord, one
faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all, and
through all, and in all.?49 Such, then, are ye, having been taught by
such instructors, Paul the Christ-bearer, and Timothy the most
faithful.
Worthless gobbledygook.
Roberts, A., Donaldson, J., & Coxe, A. C. 1997.
The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol.I
The best conclusive INTERNAL evidence of which those experts speak is one
phrase in one sentence among all the verses of all the epistles. And
remember Paul himself declares he is capable of lying to spread the faith.
Would you mind providing me with a reference for that last statement
please.
Yours in Christ
His mouth or his *****?
John
.
|
|
|
| User: "John McComb" |
|
| Title: Re: When did Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians? |
05 Sep 2007 11:39:11 PM |
|
|
Christopher A.Lee wrote:
Have trouble reading for comprehension?
What part of "they do not give any evidence for their explanation"
didn't you understand?
Well actually I was ignoring that arbitrary and thoroughly vacuous
observation. I was talking about the part where he said, "It is
because everyone listed in regards to the Epistles is a Christian
with a prestigious position at Christian Seminary or of Christian
studies at a prestigious university with something to lose if the
books of the bible show that the story of the hero is just that a
story, a fable." You know sometimes, if you really make an effort
to think these things through, it 'will' sink in.
It is missing the entire Thurbinger and Dutch schools of experts who not
only provide verse by verse evidence of the Epistles lateness but also show
my they are not the work of one man.
Thurbinger and Dutch schools, eh? Why do I get the feeling that you're
just making this up as you go along. Oh well, never mind. There's no
question that there are plenty of 'scholars' out there who are dedicated
to muddying clear waters.
Do they give evidence for their explanation?
Not any that I've seen. What was that you were saying about reading
comprehension?
But just a minute now. Can these experts from the Thurbinger and Dutch
schools be trusted? Don't they have a vested interest in having their
agenda taken seriously?
It's all about evidenciarly support for what they say.
What a strange concept.
Perhaps people who can't think for themselves, believe what experts
say just because they're experts. But the rest of us need to know
_Why_ they reach their conclusions.
So, provide the evidence. I provided you with hard evidence that the
135 AD or later date was not true. You responded with a childish remark.
Ask youself who was the first to mention the Pauline Epistles and use
extracts of them? And more importantly WHEN was that first mention of
Paul's Epistles?
The first? Ooh! That's a hard question. That would take a lot of
research and exact dates would probably not be forthcoming. However
if you want an example, read the following excerpt from the epistle
of Ignatius to the Ephesians written sometime in the 1st century.
It actually quotes the epistle. Ignatius was a contemporary of Paul
and a disciple of John:
And indeed Onesimus himself greatly commends your good order in God,
that ye all live according to the truth, and that no sect has any
dwelling-place among you. Nor indeed do ye hearken to any one rather
than to Jesus Christ, the true Shepherd and Teacher. And ye are, as
Paul wrote to you, one body and one spirit, because ye have also been
called in one hope of the faith.?48 Since also there is one Lord, one
faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all, and
through all, and in all.?49 Such, then, are ye, having been taught by
such instructors, Paul the Christ-bearer, and Timothy the most
faithful.
Worthless gobbledygook.
You know I don't think you are enhancing your credibility by making
remarks like this.
His mouth or his *****?
Mmmmm, clever. I can't tell you what a joy it is to exchange ideas
with people like yourself. How did you get out of my kill file anyway.
Yours in Christ
John
.
|
|
|
| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: When did Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians? |
06 Sep 2007 11:57:41 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 04:39:11 GMT, John McComb
<Gotta_lose@this_spam.com> wrote:
So, provide the evidence. I provided you with hard evidence that the
135 AD or later date was not true.
How is an assertion (regardless of who made it) "hard evidence"?
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: When did Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians? |
06 Sep 2007 12:19:37 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 03:02:26 GMT, John McComb
<Gotta_lose@this_spam.com> wrote:
The best conclusive INTERNAL evidence of which those experts speak is one
phrase in one sentence among all the verses of all the epistles. And
remember Paul himself declares he is capable of lying to spread the faith.
Would you mind providing me with a reference for that last statement
please.
"If the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory,
why am I judged a sinner?" (Rom. iii. 16.)
Yours in Christ
His mouth or his *****?
John
What I don't understand is why these idiots imagine lying for their
faith fools anybody outside it. Or why their excuse for doing it, is
worth anything to those they lie to.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: When did Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians? |
05 Sep 2007 03:13:35 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 4 Sep 2007 22:41:50 -0500, "Greywolf"
<greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote:
"Darrell Stec" <darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote in message
news:46de0ffc$0$4082$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
vivapadrepio@aol.com wrote:
Approximately A.D. 61-63.
Some have stated the letter dates back earlier to the imprisonment in
Caesarea.
Since the early 19th century, much of critical scholarship has
considered the letter's style and use of words, its concept of the
church, and other points of doctrine put forward by the writer as
grounds for serious doubt about authorship by Paul. The letter may
then be the work of a secretary writing at the apostle's direction or
of a later disciple who sought to develop Paul's ideas for a new
situation around A.D. 80-100.
Can you provide evidence, any evidence other than wishful thinking and
blind
faith, that any Epistle was written prior to 135 CE?
--
Later,
Darrell Stec
Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
I'm sorry to have to admit I've forgotten quite a bit in regards to the
Pauline Epistles. I had a quite good biblical research home library that was
destroyed three years ago. And had copious notes regarding some 'juicy'
details in regards to the bible. But that was then and now is now. Sufficed
to say that the real 'heavyweight' scholars date the Letter to the Ephesians
between 58 and 62 C. E. The cross-checking of the early church fathers and
'internal' information gleaned over the years makes the aforementioned
dating pretty solid. 135 is far too late a date.
That can't be true, when they have those outdated liberals
who said otherwise! :)
--
To email me, just remove the underscores.
A liberal is someone who will give away everything
except his/her own possessions.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Darrell Stec" |
|
| Title: Re: When did Paul write the Letter to the Ephesians? |
05 Sep 2007 06:17:41 PM |
|
|
Pastor Dave wrote:
On Tue, 4 Sep 2007 22:41:50 -0500, "Greywolf"
<greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote:
"Darrell Stec" <darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote in message
news:46de0ffc$0$4082$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
vivapadrepio@aol.com wrote:
Approximately A.D. 61-63.
Some have stated the letter dates back earlier to the imprisonment in
Caesarea.
Since the early 19th century, much of critical scholarship has
considered the letter's style and use of words, its concept of the
church, and other points of doctrine put forward by the writer as
grounds for serious doubt about authorship by Paul. The letter may
then be the work of a secretary writing at the apostle's direction or
of a later disciple who sought to develop Paul's ideas for a new
situation around A.D. 80-100.
Can you provide evidence, any evidence other than wishful thinking and
blind
faith, that any Epistle was written prior to 135 CE?
--
Later,
Darrell Stec
Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
I'm sorry to have to admit I've forgotten quite a bit in regards to the
Pauline Epistles. I had a quite good biblical research home library that
was destroyed three years ago. And had copious notes regarding some
'juicy' details in regards to the bible. But that was then and now is now.
Sufficed to say that the real 'heavyweight' scholars date the Letter to
the Ephesians between 58 and 62 C. E. The cross-checking of the early
church fathers and 'internal' information gleaned over the years makes the
aforementioned dating pretty solid. 135 is far too late a date.
That can't be true, when they have those outdated liberals
who said otherwise! :)
Davie, I have far more expertise in scripture than you will ever get. I
have had a formal education in theology and have had a formal education in
the languages of scripture including the late ones like Latin. You on the
other hand have had none of that. In fact you display a total lack of
education beyond that of a sophomore in high school and that is being
generous. You can prove me wrong by answering a couple of little questions
(ones which you and every other fundie expert has avoided in the last 10 or
so years):
**********
How does one determine which might deceive the reader:
vayosef af-adonai lakharot beyisrael vayaset et-david bahem lemor lekh mene
et-yisrael veet-yehuda
OR THIS
vayaamod satan al-yisrael vayaset et-david limnot et-yisrael
**********
Can you explain what we should do:
lo-taasu avel bamishpat lo-tisa fenei-dal velo tehdarpenei gadol betsedek
tishpot amitekha
OR THIS
me krinete ina me krithete
**********
Which of these is the basis of Christian belief and which do you believe:
hos de an blasphemese eis to pneuma to hagion ouk echei aphesin eis ton
aiona all enochos estin aioniou kriseos
OR THIS
in hoc omnis qui credit iustificatur
OR THIS
horate toinun oti ex ergon dikaioutai anthropos kai ouk ek pisteos monon
OR THIS
te gar chariti este sesosmenoi dia tes pisteos kai touto ouk ex humon theou
to doron ouk ex ergon hina me tis kauchesetai
**********
Put up or shut up Davie.
--
Later,
Darrell Stec
Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
