| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
05 Oct 2007 02:30:37 PM |
| Object: |
Re: when jesus died on the cross ... |
just john wrote:
... did he lose bladder and sphincter control?
I'd wager "no". As he'd hung there for three days, he likely pissed
and
***** himself long before dying, if he didn't have the ***** literally
kicked
out of him before he ever even got nailed up. Sometimes a sympathetic
guard would allow the condemned a taste of bitter wine as he hung on
the
cross, but certainly not enough to fill a bladder. Considering Christ
was
also stabbed in the side, it's conceivable he could have bled out of
his
***** upon his demise.
Aren't you glad you asked?
robcypher.livejournal.com
(561) 454-2914
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: when jesus died on the cross ... |
05 Oct 2007 06:15:13 PM |
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|
On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 12:30:37 -0700, wrote:
just john wrote:
... did he lose bladder and sphincter control?
I'd wager "no". As he'd hung there for three days, he likely pissed
and
***** himself long before dying, if he didn't have the ***** literally
kicked
out of him before he ever even got nailed up. Sometimes a sympathetic
guard would allow the condemned a taste of bitter wine as he hung on
the
cross, but certainly not enough to fill a bladder. Considering Christ
was
also stabbed in the side, it's conceivable he could have bled out of
his
***** upon his demise.
Aren't you glad you asked?
Why are you discussing a mythical person, and a mythical event as
though it were real?
.
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|
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| User: "Alt.Drugs.Hard" |
|
| Title: Re: when jesus died on the cross ... |
06 Oct 2007 12:21:41 AM |
|
|
"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:g0hdg31acf0942kincd50fg056cj60rdir@4ax.com...
On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 12:30:37 -0700, wrote:
just john wrote:
... did he lose bladder and sphincter control?
I'd wager "no". As he'd hung there for three days, he likely pissed
and
***** himself long before dying, if he didn't have the ***** literally
kicked
out of him before he ever even got nailed up. Sometimes a sympathetic
guard would allow the condemned a taste of bitter wine as he hung on
the
cross, but certainly not enough to fill a bladder. Considering Christ
was
also stabbed in the side, it's conceivable he could have bled out of
his
***** upon his demise.
Aren't you glad you asked?
Why are you discussing a mythical person, and a mythical event as
though it were real?
I was under the impresssion that Jesus was a real person who was crucified,
although I don't buy into any of the "healing the lame, walking on water,
turning water into wine" *****. I say this because I believe he was mentioned
in other writings.(Josephus) Yeah, I don't doubt he lived, but to me, if
Christians were to admit he was "just" a normal human being, without the
"son of God" stuff, his stock goes up. I mean,if you're the son of God,
hell, you're pretty much Superman. But if you preach love and peace and all
that, ata time when he had to know where he was headed, makes me consider
him a truly amazing guy. But if you're Superman, well then, that kind of
stuff is no big deal.
Mike
.
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| User: "Lizard" |
|
| Title: Re: when jesus died on the cross ... |
06 Oct 2007 07:45:53 AM |
|
|
On Oct 6, 1:21 am, "Alt.Drugs.Hard" <doneganm...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
"Michael Gray" <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:g0hdg31acf0942kincd50fg056cj60rdir@4ax.com...
On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 12:30:37 -0700, wrote:
just john wrote:
... did he lose bladder and sphincter control?
I'd wager "no". As he'd hung there for three days, he likely pissed
and
***** himself long before dying, if he didn't have the ***** literally
kicked
out of him before he ever even got nailed up. Sometimes a sympathetic
guard would allow the condemned a taste of bitter wine as he hung on
the
cross, but certainly not enough to fill a bladder. Considering Christ
was
also stabbed in the side, it's conceivable he could have bled out of
his
***** upon his demise.
Aren't you glad you asked?
Why are you discussing a mythical person, and a mythical event as
though it were real?
I was under the impresssion that Jesus was a real person who was crucified,
although I don't buy into any of the "healing the lame, walking on water,
turning water into wine" *****. I say this because I believe he was mentioned
in other writings.(Josephus) Yeah, I don't doubt he lived, but to me, if
Christians were to admit he was "just" a normal human being, without the
"son of God" stuff, his stock goes up. I mean,if you're the son of God,
hell, you're pretty much Superman. But if you preach love and peace and all
that, ata time when he had to know where he was headed, makes me consider
him a truly amazing guy. But if you're Superman, well then, that kind of
stuff is no big deal.
Mike
Jesus is mentioned twice in Josephus, (once directly, and once as the
brother of James the Just) but both mentions are probably spurious
additions added by the Church transcribers as late as 320 AD. in
about 100 AD, there was a written debate on the historical veracity of
Jesus between Justin the Philosopher and a jew named Typhro. Justin
the Philosopher makes repeated reference to Josephus but never refers
to the two passages in which he is supposed to mention Jesus. This is
a very good indicator that, at least in Justin's copy of Josephus,
there was no mention of him. In fact, NO early church writer mentions
Josephus' s Jesus references until 315 AD.
The historical reality of a guy named Jesus mucking about in the
middle east is still very much an open issue.
Lizard
.
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| User: "Alt.Drugs.Hard" |
|
| Title: Re: when jesus died on the cross ... |
08 Oct 2007 07:56:22 AM |
|
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"Lizard" <lizardpriest@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1191674753.099886.88810@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 6, 1:21 am, "Alt.Drugs.Hard" <doneganm...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
"Michael Gray" <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:g0hdg31acf0942kincd50fg056cj60rdir@4ax.com...
On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 12:30:37 -0700, wrote:
just john wrote:
... did he lose bladder and sphincter control?
I'd wager "no". As he'd hung there for three days, he likely pissed
and
***** himself long before dying, if he didn't have the ***** literally
kicked
out of him before he ever even got nailed up. Sometimes a sympathetic
guard would allow the condemned a taste of bitter wine as he hung on
the
cross, but certainly not enough to fill a bladder. Considering Christ
was
also stabbed in the side, it's conceivable he could have bled out of
his
***** upon his demise.
Aren't you glad you asked?
Why are you discussing a mythical person, and a mythical event as
though it were real?
I was under the impresssion that Jesus was a real person who was
crucified,
although I don't buy into any of the "healing the lame, walking on water,
turning water into wine" *****. I say this because I believe he was
mentioned
in other writings.(Josephus) Yeah, I don't doubt he lived, but to me, if
Christians were to admit he was "just" a normal human being, without the
"son of God" stuff, his stock goes up. I mean,if you're the son of God,
hell, you're pretty much Superman. But if you preach love and peace and
all
that, ata time when he had to know where he was headed, makes me
consider
him a truly amazing guy. But if you're Superman, well then, that kind of
stuff is no big deal.
Mike
Jesus is mentioned twice in Josephus, (once directly, and once as the
brother of James the Just) but both mentions are probably spurious
additions added by the Church transcribers as late as 320 AD. in
about 100 AD, there was a written debate on the historical veracity of
Jesus between Justin the Philosopher and a jew named Typhro. Justin
the Philosopher makes repeated reference to Josephus but never refers
to the two passages in which he is supposed to mention Jesus. This is
a very good indicator that, at least in Justin's copy of Josephus,
there was no mention of him. In fact, NO early church writer mentions
Josephus' s Jesus references until 315 AD.
The historical reality of a guy named Jesus mucking about in the
middle east is still very much an open issue.
Lizard
I'm always amazed (and ashamed of my own half assed knowledge) at how many
ADH-ers are so damn smart. I don't think I've ever asked a question here
that wasn't answered in detail within 24 hours. Thanks Lizard.
Mike
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: when jesus died on the cross ... |
06 Oct 2007 08:03:02 AM |
|
|
On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 12:45:53 -0000, Lizard <lizardpriest@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Oct 6, 1:21 am, "Alt.Drugs.Hard" <doneganm...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
"Michael Gray" <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:g0hdg31acf0942kincd50fg056cj60rdir@4ax.com...
On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 12:30:37 -0700, wrote:
just john wrote:
... did he lose bladder and sphincter control?
I'd wager "no". As he'd hung there for three days, he likely pissed
and
***** himself long before dying, if he didn't have the ***** literally
kicked
out of him before he ever even got nailed up. Sometimes a sympathetic
guard would allow the condemned a taste of bitter wine as he hung on
the
cross, but certainly not enough to fill a bladder. Considering Christ
was
also stabbed in the side, it's conceivable he could have bled out of
his
***** upon his demise.
Aren't you glad you asked?
Why are you discussing a mythical person, and a mythical event as
though it were real?
I was under the impresssion that Jesus was a real person who was crucified,
although I don't buy into any of the "healing the lame, walking on water,
turning water into wine" *****. I say this because I believe he was mentioned
in other writings.(Josephus) Yeah, I don't doubt he lived, but to me, if
Christians were to admit he was "just" a normal human being, without the
"son of God" stuff, his stock goes up. I mean,if you're the son of God,
hell, you're pretty much Superman. But if you preach love and peace and all
that, ata time when he had to know where he was headed, makes me consider
him a truly amazing guy. But if you're Superman, well then, that kind of
stuff is no big deal.
Mike
Jesus is mentioned twice in Josephus, (once directly, and once as the
brother of James the Just) but both mentions are probably spurious
additions added by the Church transcribers as late as 320 AD. in
about 100 AD, there was a written debate on the historical veracity of
Jesus between Justin the Philosopher and a jew named Typhro. Justin
the Philosopher makes repeated reference to Josephus but never refers
to the two passages in which he is supposed to mention Jesus. This is
a very good indicator that, at least in Justin's copy of Josephus,
there was no mention of him. In fact, NO early church writer mentions
Josephus' s Jesus references until 315 AD.
The historical reality of a guy named Jesus mucking about in the
middle east is still very much an open issue.
Lizard
"josephus" is a long and well acknowledged forgery.
.
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| User: "Lizard" |
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| Title: Re: when jesus died on the cross ... |
06 Oct 2007 08:11:31 AM |
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On Oct 6, 9:03 am, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 12:45:53 -0000, Lizard <lizardpri...@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Oct 6, 1:21 am, "Alt.Drugs.Hard" <doneganm...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
"Michael Gray" <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:g0hdg31acf0942kincd50fg056cj60rdir@4ax.com...
On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 12:30:37 -0700, wrote:
just john wrote:
... did he lose bladder and sphincter control?
I'd wager "no". As he'd hung there for three days, he likely pissed
and
***** himself long before dying, if he didn't have the ***** literally
kicked
out of him before he ever even got nailed up. Sometimes a sympathetic
guard would allow the condemned a taste of bitter wine as he hung on
the
cross, but certainly not enough to fill a bladder. Considering Christ
was
also stabbed in the side, it's conceivable he could have bled out of
his
***** upon his demise.
Aren't you glad you asked?
Why are you discussing a mythical person, and a mythical event as
though it were real?
I was under the impresssion that Jesus was a real person who was crucified,
although I don't buy into any of the "healing the lame, walking on water,
turning water into wine" *****. I say this because I believe he was mentioned
in other writings.(Josephus) Yeah, I don't doubt he lived, but to me, if
Christians were to admit he was "just" a normal human being, without the
"son of God" stuff, his stock goes up. I mean,if you're the son of God,
hell, you're pretty much Superman. But if you preach love and peace and all
that, ata time when he had to know where he was headed, makes me consider
him a truly amazing guy. But if you're Superman, well then, that kind of
stuff is no big deal.
Mike
Jesus is mentioned twice in Josephus, (once directly, and once as the
brother of James the Just) but both mentions are probably spurious
additions added by the Church transcribers as late as 320 AD. in
about 100 AD, there was a written debate on the historical veracity of
Jesus between Justin the Philosopher and a jew named Typhro. Justin
the Philosopher makes repeated reference to Josephus but never refers
to the two passages in which he is supposed to mention Jesus. This is
a very good indicator that, at least in Justin's copy of Josephus,
there was no mention of him. In fact, NO early church writer mentions
Josephus' s Jesus references until 315 AD.
The historical reality of a guy named Jesus mucking about in the
middle east is still very much an open issue.
Lizard
"josephus" is a long and well acknowledged forgery.
While Josephus CONTAINS several forgeries, the works of Josephus
themselves are not at issue. In fact, we have a much better grasp on
who Josephus was (an apostate Jew working for Rome) and what he did
than we do Jesus. Josephus, while inacurate in several places and
modified in several others, is not a forgery, and we can precisely
date his writings.
Lizard
.
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| User: "Roger Pearse" |
|
| Title: Re: when jesus died on the cross ... |
12 Oct 2007 02:34:02 AM |
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On 6 Oct, 14:11, Lizard <lizardpri...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 6, 9:03 am, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
Jesus is mentioned twice inJosephus, (once directly, and once as the
brother of James the Just) but both mentions are probably spurious
additions added by the Church transcribers as late as 320 AD. in
about 100 AD, there was a written debate on the historical veracity of
Jesus between Justin the Philosopher and a jew named Typhro. Justin
the Philosopher makes repeated reference toJosephusbut never refers
to the two passages in which he is supposed to mention Jesus. This is
a very good indicator that, at least in Justin's copy ofJosephus,
there was no mention of him.
Um, Justin makes no mention of Josephus at all in the Dialogue with
Trypho. The work dates to ca. 150 AD. It does not discuss the
historical veracity of Jesus; no-one questioned this until the idea
was invented ca. 1700 by some atheists.
In fact, NO early church writer mentions
Josephus' s Jesus references until 315 AD.
This is less impressive than it sounds, however, since the same is
true for most of Josephus. Indeed there is no evidence that anyone
other than two writers had access to any of Antiquities 11-20.
Remember that 99% of ancient literature is lost, so arguments from
silence of this kind are all unsound.
The historical reality of a guy named Jesus mucking about in the
middle east is still very much an open issue.
No professor of ancient history in any university in the world would
agree with you.
"josephus" is a long and well acknowledged forgery.
WhileJosephusCONTAINS several forgeries, the works ofJosephus
themselves are not at issue.
The idea that Josephus contains forgeries is mistaken. The doubtful
status of the so-called Testimonium Flavianum is the only point at
issue, and these days is generally considered genuine but corrupt.
See the article by Alice Whealey at the following link for some stuff
on this:
http://josephus.yorku.ca/links-articles.htm
The reference to Jesus in Ant. 20 is almost universally considered
genuine and always has been.
All the best,
Roger Pearse
.
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| User: "Budikka666" |
|
| Title: Re: when jesus died on the cross ... |
06 Oct 2007 09:18:04 AM |
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|
On Oct 6, 8:11 am, Lizard <lizardpri...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 6, 9:03 am, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 12:45:53 -0000, Lizard <lizardpri...@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Oct 6, 1:21 am, "Alt.Drugs.Hard" <doneganm...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
"Michael Gray" <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:g0hdg31acf0942kincd50fg056cj60rdir@4ax.com...
On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 12:30:37 -0700, wrote:
just john wrote:
... did he lose bladder and sphincter control?
I'd wager "no". As he'd hung there for three days, he likely pissed
and
***** himself long before dying, if he didn't have the ***** literally
kicked
out of him before he ever even got nailed up. Sometimes a sympathetic
guard would allow the condemned a taste of bitter wine as he hung on
the
cross, but certainly not enough to fill a bladder. Considering Christ
was
also stabbed in the side, it's conceivable he could have bled out of
his
***** upon his demise.
Aren't you glad you asked?
Why are you discussing a mythical person, and a mythical event as
though it were real?
I was under the impresssion that Jesus was a real person who was crucified,
although I don't buy into any of the "healing the lame, walking on water,
turning water into wine" *****. I say this because I believe he was mentioned
in other writings.(Josephus) Yeah, I don't doubt he lived, but to me, if
Christians were to admit he was "just" a normal human being, without the
"son of God" stuff, his stock goes up. I mean,if you're the son of God,
hell, you're pretty much Superman. But if you preach love and peace and all
that, ata time when he had to know where he was headed, makes me consider
him a truly amazing guy. But if you're Superman, well then, that kind of
stuff is no big deal.
Mike
Jesus is mentioned twice in Josephus, (once directly, and once as the
brother of James the Just) but both mentions are probably spurious
additions added by the Church transcribers as late as 320 AD. in
about 100 AD, there was a written debate on the historical veracity of
Jesus between Justin the Philosopher and a jew named Typhro. Justin
the Philosopher makes repeated reference to Josephus but never refers
to the two passages in which he is supposed to mention Jesus. This is
a very good indicator that, at least in Justin's copy of Josephus,
there was no mention of him. In fact, NO early church writer mentions
Josephus' s Jesus references until 315 AD.
The historical reality of a guy named Jesus mucking about in the
middle east is still very much an open issue.
Lizard
"josephus" is a long and well acknowledged forgery.
While Josephus CONTAINS several forgeries, the works of Josephus
themselves are not at issue. In fact, we have a much better grasp on
who Josephus was (an apostate Jew working for Rome) and what he did
than we do Jesus. Josephus, while inacurate in several places and
modified in several others, is not a forgery, and we can precisely
date his writings.
Lizard
And tellingly, whilst Josephus reports a manner of Herodian scandal,
he never once mentions anything about Herod ordering the killing of
infants.
In short, the very text that idiot Christians ignorantly call into
service to support the historical reality of their mythical messiah,
actually refutes the gospels!
Budikka
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: when jesus died on the cross ... |
06 Oct 2007 08:43:03 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 07:18:04 -0700, Budikka666 <budikka1@netscape.net>
wrote:
On Oct 6, 8:11 am, Lizard <lizardpri...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 6, 9:03 am, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 12:45:53 -0000, Lizard <lizardpri...@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Oct 6, 1:21 am, "Alt.Drugs.Hard" <doneganm...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
"Michael Gray" <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:g0hdg31acf0942kincd50fg056cj60rdir@4ax.com...
On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 12:30:37 -0700, wrote:
just john wrote:
... did he lose bladder and sphincter control?
I'd wager "no". As he'd hung there for three days, he likely pissed
and
***** himself long before dying, if he didn't have the ***** literally
kicked
out of him before he ever even got nailed up. Sometimes a sympathetic
guard would allow the condemned a taste of bitter wine as he hung on
the
cross, but certainly not enough to fill a bladder. Considering Christ
was
also stabbed in the side, it's conceivable he could have bled out of
his
***** upon his demise.
Aren't you glad you asked?
Why are you discussing a mythical person, and a mythical event as
though it were real?
I was under the impresssion that Jesus was a real person who was crucified,
although I don't buy into any of the "healing the lame, walking on water,
turning water into wine" *****. I say this because I believe he was mentioned
in other writings.(Josephus) Yeah, I don't doubt he lived, but to me, if
Christians were to admit he was "just" a normal human being, without the
"son of God" stuff, his stock goes up. I mean,if you're the son of God,
hell, you're pretty much Superman. But if you preach love and peace and all
that, ata time when he had to know where he was headed, makes me consider
him a truly amazing guy. But if you're Superman, well then, that kind of
stuff is no big deal.
Mike
Jesus is mentioned twice in Josephus, (once directly, and once as the
brother of James the Just) but both mentions are probably spurious
additions added by the Church transcribers as late as 320 AD. in
about 100 AD, there was a written debate on the historical veracity of
Jesus between Justin the Philosopher and a jew named Typhro. Justin
the Philosopher makes repeated reference to Josephus but never refers
to the two passages in which he is supposed to mention Jesus. This is
a very good indicator that, at least in Justin's copy of Josephus,
there was no mention of him. In fact, NO early church writer mentions
Josephus' s Jesus references until 315 AD.
The historical reality of a guy named Jesus mucking about in the
middle east is still very much an open issue.
Lizard
"josephus" is a long and well acknowledged forgery.
While Josephus CONTAINS several forgeries, the works of Josephus
themselves are not at issue. In fact, we have a much better grasp on
who Josephus was (an apostate Jew working for Rome) and what he did
than we do Jesus. Josephus, while inacurate in several places and
modified in several others, is not a forgery, and we can precisely
date his writings.
Lizard
And tellingly, whilst Josephus reports a manner of Herodian scandal,
he never once mentions anything about Herod ordering the killing of
infants.
In short, the very text that idiot Christians ignorantly call into
service to support the historical reality of their mythical messiah,
actually refutes the gospels!
Lizard claims that he was involved in the precise dating of these
documents, although I suspect this to be a lie on many levels.
.
|
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| User: "Lizard" |
|
| Title: Re: when jesus died on the cross ... |
07 Oct 2007 02:05:15 AM |
|
|
On Oct 6, 9:43 pm, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 07:18:04 -0700, Budikka666 <budik...@netscape.net>
wrote:
On Oct 6, 8:11 am, Lizard <lizardpri...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 6, 9:03 am, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 12:45:53 -0000, Lizard <lizardpri...@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Oct 6, 1:21 am, "Alt.Drugs.Hard" <doneganm...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
"Michael Gray" <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:g0hdg31acf0942kincd50fg056cj60rdir@4ax.com...
On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 12:30:37 -0700, wrote:
just john wrote:
... did he lose bladder and sphincter control?
I'd wager "no". As he'd hung there for three days, he likely pissed
and
***** himself long before dying, if he didn't have the ***** literally
kicked
out of him before he ever even got nailed up. Sometimes a sympathetic
guard would allow the condemned a taste of bitter wine as he hung on
the
cross, but certainly not enough to fill a bladder. Considering Christ
was
also stabbed in the side, it's conceivable he could have bled out of
his
***** upon his demise.
Aren't you glad you asked?
Why are you discussing a mythical person, and a mythical event as
though it were real?
I was under the impresssion that Jesus was a real person who was crucified,
although I don't buy into any of the "healing the lame, walking on water,
turning water into wine" *****. I say this because I believe he was mentioned
in other writings.(Josephus) Yeah, I don't doubt he lived, but to me, if
Christians were to admit he was "just" a normal human being, without the
"son of God" stuff, his stock goes up. I mean,if you're the son of God,
hell, you're pretty much Superman. But if you preach love and peace and all
that, ata time when he had to know where he was headed, makes me consider
him a truly amazing guy. But if you're Superman, well then, that kind of
stuff is no big deal.
Mike
Jesus is mentioned twice in Josephus, (once directly, and once as the
brother of James the Just) but both mentions are probably spurious
additions added by the Church transcribers as late as 320 AD. in
about 100 AD, there was a written debate on the historical veracity of
Jesus between Justin the Philosopher and a jew named Typhro. Justin
the Philosopher makes repeated reference to Josephus but never refers
to the two passages in which he is supposed to mention Jesus. This is
a very good indicator that, at least in Justin's copy of Josephus,
there was no mention of him. In fact, NO early church writer mentions
Josephus' s Jesus references until 315 AD.
The historical reality of a guy named Jesus mucking about in the
middle east is still very much an open issue.
Lizard
"josephus" is a long and well acknowledged forgery.
While Josephus CONTAINS several forgeries, the works of Josephus
themselves are not at issue. In fact, we have a much better grasp on
who Josephus was (an apostate Jew working for Rome) and what he did
than we do Jesus. Josephus, while inacurate in several places and
modified in several others, is not a forgery, and we can precisely
date his writings.
Lizard
And tellingly, whilst Josephus reports a manner of Herodian scandal,
he never once mentions anything about Herod ordering the killing of
infants.
In short, the very text that idiot Christians ignorantly call into
service to support the historical reality of their mythical messiah,
actually refutes the gospels!
Lizard claims that he was involved in the precise dating of these
documents, although I suspect this to be a lie on many levels.
By "we" I mean researchers, both with letters after their names and
amateur historians who like to research such things in our spare time.
Historical documents are dated mostly by reference. That is, we (see
above definition of simple word) look for other historical documents
that draw from them.
Rome was letigious and largely literate, they left records about
everything, including precise dating of it's citizen's lives.
Josephus was a prominent citizen, and his three major works were
widely read, and frequently commented upon, in his own time.
You will hardly get cut-and-pastes from christian websites from me, I
am an animist minister. And an amateur historian.
Lizard
.
|
|
|
| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: when jesus died on the cross ... |
07 Oct 2007 05:18:38 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 07 Oct 2007 07:05:15 -0000, Lizard <lizardpriest@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Oct 6, 9:43 pm, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 07:18:04 -0700, Budikka666 <budik...@netscape.net>
wrote:
On Oct 6, 8:11 am, Lizard <lizardpri...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 6, 9:03 am, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 12:45:53 -0000, Lizard <lizardpri...@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Oct 6, 1:21 am, "Alt.Drugs.Hard" <doneganm...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
"Michael Gray" <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:g0hdg31acf0942kincd50fg056cj60rdir@4ax.com...
On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 12:30:37 -0700, wrote:
just john wrote:
... did he lose bladder and sphincter control?
I'd wager "no". As he'd hung there for three days, he likely pissed
and
***** himself long before dying, if he didn't have the ***** literally
kicked
out of him before he ever even got nailed up. Sometimes a sympathetic
guard would allow the condemned a taste of bitter wine as he hung on
the
cross, but certainly not enough to fill a bladder. Considering Christ
was
also stabbed in the side, it's conceivable he could have bled out of
his
***** upon his demise.
Aren't you glad you asked?
Why are you discussing a mythical person, and a mythical event as
though it were real?
I was under the impresssion that Jesus was a real person who was crucified,
although I don't buy into any of the "healing the lame, walking on water,
turning water into wine" *****. I say this because I believe he was mentioned
in other writings.(Josephus) Yeah, I don't doubt he lived, but to me, if
Christians were to admit he was "just" a normal human being, without the
"son of God" stuff, his stock goes up. I mean,if you're the son of God,
hell, you're pretty much Superman. But if you preach love and peace and all
that, ata time when he had to know where he was headed, makes me consider
him a truly amazing guy. But if you're Superman, well then, that kind of
stuff is no big deal.
Mike
Jesus is mentioned twice in Josephus, (once directly, and once as the
brother of James the Just) but both mentions are probably spurious
additions added by the Church transcribers as late as 320 AD. in
about 100 AD, there was a written debate on the historical veracity of
Jesus between Justin the Philosopher and a jew named Typhro. Justin
the Philosopher makes repeated reference to Josephus but never refers
to the two passages in which he is supposed to mention Jesus. This is
a very good indicator that, at least in Justin's copy of Josephus,
there was no mention of him. In fact, NO early church writer mentions
Josephus' s Jesus references until 315 AD.
The historical reality of a guy named Jesus mucking about in the
middle east is still very much an open issue.
Lizard
"josephus" is a long and well acknowledged forgery.
While Josephus CONTAINS several forgeries, the works of Josephus
themselves are not at issue. In fact, we have a much better grasp on
who Josephus was (an apostate Jew working for Rome) and what he did
than we do Jesus. Josephus, while inacurate in several places and
modified in several others, is not a forgery, and we can precisely
date his writings.
Lizard
And tellingly, whilst Josephus reports a manner of Herodian scandal,
he never once mentions anything about Herod ordering the killing of
infants.
In short, the very text that idiot Christians ignorantly call into
service to support the historical reality of their mythical messiah,
actually refutes the gospels!
Lizard claims that he was involved in the precise dating of these
documents, although I suspect this to be a lie on many levels.
By "we" I mean researchers, both with letters after their names and
amateur historians who like to research such things in our spare time.
Historical documents are dated mostly by reference. That is, we (see
above definition of simple word) look for other historical documents
that draw from them.
Rome was letigious and largely literate, they left records about
everything, including precise dating of it's citizen's lives.
Josephus was a prominent citizen, and his three major works were
widely read, and frequently commented upon, in his own time.
You will hardly get cut-and-pastes from christian websites from me, I
am an animist minister. And an amateur historian.
I note the evasion on these 'precise' dating techniques that you did
not outline.
Evasion, pure and simple, because you claimed that "we" have precise
dates on these documents, yet you cannot even show me wehre an
original is!!
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Lizard" |
|
| Title: Re: when jesus died on the cross ... |
07 Oct 2007 02:08:33 AM |
|
|
On Oct 6, 9:43 pm, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 07:18:04 -0700, Budikka666 <budik...@netscape.net>
wrote:
On Oct 6, 8:11 am, Lizard <lizardpri...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 6, 9:03 am, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 12:45:53 -0000, Lizard <lizardpri...@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Oct 6, 1:21 am, "Alt.Drugs.Hard" <doneganm...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
"Michael Gray" <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:g0hdg31acf0942kincd50fg056cj60rdir@4ax.com...
On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 12:30:37 -0700, wrote:
just john wrote:
... did he lose bladder and sphincter control?
I'd wager "no". As he'd hung there for three days, he likely pissed
and
***** himself long before dying, if he didn't have the ***** literally
kicked
out of him before he ever even got nailed up. Sometimes a sympathetic
guard would allow the condemned a taste of bitter wine as he hung on
the
cross, but certainly not enough to fill a bladder. Considering Christ
was
also stabbed in the side, it's conceivable he could have bled out of
his
***** upon his demise.
Aren't you glad you asked?
Why are you discussing a mythical person, and a mythical event as
though it were real?
I was under the impresssion that Jesus was a real person who was crucified,
although I don't buy into any of the "healing the lame, walking on water,
turning water into wine" *****. I say this because I believe he was mentioned
in other writings.(Josephus) Yeah, I don't doubt he lived, but to me, if
Christians were to admit he was "just" a normal human being, without the
"son of God" stuff, his stock goes up. I mean,if you're the son of God,
hell, you're pretty much Superman. But if you preach love and peace and all
that, ata time when he had to know where he was headed, makes me consider
him a truly amazing guy. But if you're Superman, well then, that kind of
stuff is no big deal.
Mike
Jesus is mentioned twice in Josephus, (once directly, and once as the
brother of James the Just) but both mentions are probably spurious
additions added by the Church transcribers as late as 320 AD. in
about 100 AD, there was a written debate on the historical veracity of
Jesus between Justin the Philosopher and a jew named Typhro. Justin
the Philosopher makes repeated reference to Josephus but never refers
to the two passages in which he is supposed to mention Jesus. This is
a very good indicator that, at least in Justin's copy of Josephus,
there was no mention of him. In fact, NO early church writer mentions
Josephus' s Jesus references until 315 AD.
The historical reality of a guy named Jesus mucking about in the
middle east is still very much an open issue.
Lizard
"josephus" is a long and well acknowledged forgery.
While Josephus CONTAINS several forgeries, the works of Josephus
themselves are not at issue. In fact, we have a much better grasp on
who Josephus was (an apostate Jew working for Rome) and what he did
than we do Jesus. Josephus, while inacurate in several places and
modified in several others, is not a forgery, and we can precisely
date his writings.
Lizard
And tellingly, whilst Josephus reports a manner of Herodian scandal,
he never once mentions anything about Herod ordering the killing of
infants.
In short, the very text that idiot Christians ignorantly call into
service to support the historical reality of their mythical messiah,
actually refutes the gospels!
Lizard claims that he was involved in the precise dating of these
documents, although I suspect this to be a lie on many levels.
Darn, I missed the post calling me a liar until after I responded to
your first question. Oh well. I was going to say something nasty,
but since you have already demonstrated your resounding intellect,
I'll wait. No sense in kicking a wounded man.
Lizard
.
|
|
|
| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: when jesus died on the cross ... |
07 Oct 2007 05:19:42 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 07 Oct 2007 07:08:33 -0000, Lizard <lizardpriest@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Oct 6, 9:43 pm, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 07:18:04 -0700, Budikka666 <budik...@netscape.net>
wrote:
On Oct 6, 8:11 am, Lizard <lizardpri...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 6, 9:03 am, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 12:45:53 -0000, Lizard <lizardpri...@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Oct 6, 1:21 am, "Alt.Drugs.Hard" <doneganm...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
"Michael Gray" <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:g0hdg31acf0942kincd50fg056cj60rdir@4ax.com...
On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 12:30:37 -0700, wrote:
just john wrote:
... did he lose bladder and sphincter control?
I'd wager "no". As he'd hung there for three days, he likely pissed
and
***** himself long before dying, if he didn't have the ***** literally
kicked
out of him before he ever even got nailed up. Sometimes a sympathetic
guard would allow the condemned a taste of bitter wine as he hung on
the
cross, but certainly not enough to fill a bladder. Considering Christ
was
also stabbed in the side, it's conceivable he could have bled out of
his
***** upon his demise.
Aren't you glad you asked?
Why are you discussing a mythical person, and a mythical event as
though it were real?
I was under the impresssion that Jesus was a real person who was crucified,
although I don't buy into any of the "healing the lame, walking on water,
turning water into wine" *****. I say this because I believe he was mentioned
in other writings.(Josephus) Yeah, I don't doubt he lived, but to me, if
Christians were to admit he was "just" a normal human being, without the
"son of God" stuff, his stock goes up. I mean,if you're the son of God,
hell, you're pretty much Superman. But if you preach love and peace and all
that, ata time when he had to know where he was headed, makes me consider
him a truly amazing guy. But if you're Superman, well then, that kind of
stuff is no big deal.
Mike
Jesus is mentioned twice in Josephus, (once directly, and once as the
brother of James the Just) but both mentions are probably spurious
additions added by the Church transcribers as late as 320 AD. in
about 100 AD, there was a written debate on the historical veracity of
Jesus between Justin the Philosopher and a jew named Typhro. Justin
the Philosopher makes repeated reference to Josephus but never refers
to the two passages in which he is supposed to mention Jesus. This is
a very good indicator that, at least in Justin's copy of Josephus,
there was no mention of him. In fact, NO early church writer mentions
Josephus' s Jesus references until 315 AD.
The historical reality of a guy named Jesus mucking about in the
middle east is still very much an open issue.
Lizard
"josephus" is a long and well acknowledged forgery.
While Josephus CONTAINS several forgeries, the works of Josephus
themselves are not at issue. In fact, we have a much better grasp on
who Josephus was (an apostate Jew working for Rome) and what he did
than we do Jesus. Josephus, while inacurate in several places and
modified in several others, is not a forgery, and we can precisely
date his writings.
Lizard
And tellingly, whilst Josephus reports a manner of Herodian scandal,
he never once mentions anything about Herod ordering the killing of
infants.
In short, the very text that idiot Christians ignorantly call into
service to support the historical reality of their mythical messiah,
actually refutes the gospels!
Lizard claims that he was involved in the precise dating of these
documents, although I suspect this to be a lie on many levels.
Darn, I missed the post calling me a liar until after I responded to
your first question. Oh well. I was going to say something nasty,
but since you have already demonstrated your resounding intellect,
I'll wait. No sense in kicking a wounded man.
Lizard
Another evasion of actually answering my question.
I know why: you quite simply cannot support your outrageous claim of
precise dating.
.
|
|
|
| User: "MobiusDick" |
|
| Title: Re: when jesus died on the cross ... |
07 Oct 2007 10:35:24 PM |
|
|
OK, here's the real question: if Jesus was God, he has eternal life
(at least according to Christianity). So he really didn't die as He
and the Father are One and The father didn't die.
Also, does God feel existential depression because He has no God to
worship? I guess if God is omnipotent and omniscient, then He know
that there was no Creator greater than he was. I guess God is the
ultimate existentialist realizing that all meaning is local and
created by your own interpretation. What's all this stuff about
Holiness? Even superman knows that "Evil prospers when good men do
nothing to stop it." So why didn't He stop Hitler or them there A-rabs
(that's a long A as in A-rabs) on 9/11. Is He evil or just likes it
when ***** blows up?
MobiusDick
.
|
|
|
| User: "the Bede" |
|
| Title: Re: when jesus died on the cross ... |
08 Oct 2007 12:32:11 AM |
|
|
"MobiusDick" <MobiusDick@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1191814524.549956.239320@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
OK, here's the real question: if Jesus was God, he has eternal life
(at least according to Christianity). So he really didn't die as He
and the Father are One and The father didn't die.
dude, you a Jenius!
.
|
|
|
| User: "Smart Ape - JENsa member" |
|
| Title: Re: when jesus died on the cross ... |
08 Oct 2007 05:58:48 AM |
|
|
"the Bede" <rspwsownthebede@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:gejOi.3678$a8.1509@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
"MobiusDick" <MobiusDick@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1191814524.549956.239320@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
OK, here's the real question: if Jesus was God, he has eternal life
(at least according to Christianity). So he really didn't die as He
and the Father are One and The father didn't die.
dude, you a Jenius!
Wanna buy him a T-shirt?
http://www.customink.com/designs/boygrey/6571584-501545
--
--- 8th Funniest Poster of 2004, 6th in 2005 and 5th in 2006.
--- 5th Most Improved Poster of 2004, 6th in 2005 and 3rd in 2006.
--- Winner of 2006's Worst Feud/Flamewar/Thread and of 2007's RSPW Rumble
--- 3rd Highest Vote-Getter in the 2005 KORSPW (I got screwed in 2006)
--- In the Final Four of the 2006 RSPW Rumble
--- Ranked 4th on Lvubun's Top 127 RSPW Posters of 2005
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Sean Carroll" |
|
| Title: Re: when jesus died on the cross ... |
08 Oct 2007 02:42:47 AM |
|
|
MobiusDick wrote:
Also, does God feel existential depression because He has no God to
worship?
Actually, I think the Gnostics believed he did. Or maybe some other
group. There's someone who believed the earthly world was created by a
deity called the Demiurge, in order to keep himself from going mad from
boredom.
--
--Sean
http://spclsd223.livejournal.com/
Vegetative State Guy: You know what? I didn't let you come along so you
could suck all the fun out of my one day of life.
House: Well, you're out of luck, 'cause that's totally why I'm here!
.
|
|
|
| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: when jesus died on the cross ... |
08 Oct 2007 03:37:18 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 03:42:47 -0400, Sean Carroll
<seanc130@hotmail.com> wrote:
MobiusDick wrote:
Also, does God feel existential depression because He has no God to
worship?
Actually, I think the Gnostics believed he did. Or maybe some other
group. There's someone who believed the earthly world was created by a
deity called the Demiurge, in order to keep himself from going mad from
boredom.
What kept that entity from going mad from boredom?
Another entity?
And what about that?
The endless Amway Pyramid of ever clever deties!
With the same runaway impossible absurdities.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Lizard" |
|
| Title: Re: when jesus died on the cross ... |
07 Oct 2007 05:46:05 AM |
|
|
On Oct 7, 6:19 am, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Sun, 07 Oct 2007 07:08:33 -0000, Lizard <lizardpri...@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Oct 6, 9:43 pm, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 07:18:04 -0700, Budikka666 <budik...@netscape.net>
wrote:
On Oct 6, 8:11 am, Lizard <lizardpri...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 6, 9:03 am, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 12:45:53 -0000, Lizard <lizardpri...@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Oct 6, 1:21 am, "Alt.Drugs.Hard" <doneganm...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
"Michael Gray" <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:g0hdg31acf0942kincd50fg056cj60rdir@4ax.com...
On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 12:30:37 -0700, wrote:
just john wrote:
... did he lose bladder and sphincter control?
I'd wager "no". As he'd hung there for three days, he likely pissed
and
***** himself long before dying, if he didn't have the ***** literally
kicked
out of him before he ever even got nailed up. Sometimes a sympathetic
guard would allow the condemned a taste of bitter wine as he hung on
the
cross, but certainly not enough to fill a bladder. Considering Christ
was
also stabbed in the side, it's conceivable he could have bled out of
his
***** upon his demise.
Aren't you glad you asked?
Why are you discussing a mythical person, and a mythical event as
though it were real?
I was under the impresssion that Jesus was a real person who was crucified,
although I don't buy into any of the "healing the lame, walking on water,
turning water into wine" *****. I say this because I believe he was mentioned
in other writings.(Josephus) Yeah, I don't doubt he lived, but to me, if
Christians were to admit he was "just" a normal human being, without the
"son of God" stuff, his stock goes up. I mean,if you're the son of God,
hell, you're pretty much Superman. But if you preach love and peace and all
that, ata time when he had to know where he was headed, makes me consider
him a truly amazing guy. But if you're Superman, well then, that kind of
stuff is no big deal.
Mike
Jesus is mentioned twice in Josephus, (once directly, and once as the
brother of James the Just) but both mentions are probably spurious
additions added by the Church transcribers as late as 320 AD. in
about 100 AD, there was a written debate on the historical veracity of
Jesus between Justin the Philosopher and a jew named Typhro. Justin
the Philosopher makes repeated reference to Josephus but never refers
to the two passages in which he is supposed to mention Jesus. This is
a very good indicator that, at least in Justin's copy of Josephus,
there was no mention of him. In fact, NO early church writer mentions
Josephus' s Jesus references until 315 AD.
The historical reality of a guy named Jesus mucking about in the
middle east is still very much an open issue.
Lizard
"josephus" is a long and well acknowledged forgery.
While Josephus CONTAINS several forgeries, the works of Josephus
themselves are not at issue. In fact, we have a much better grasp on
who Josephus was (an apostate Jew working for Rome) and what he did
than we do Jesus. Josephus, while inacurate in several places and
modified in several others, is not a forgery, and we can precisely
date his writings.
Lizard
And tellingly, whilst Josephus reports a manner of Herodian scandal,
he never once mentions anything about Herod ordering the killing of
infants.
In short, the very text that idiot Christians ignorantly call into
service to support the historical reality of their mythical messiah,
actually refutes the gospels!
Lizard claims that he was involved in the precise dating of these
documents, although I suspect this to be a lie on many levels.
Darn, I missed the post calling me a liar until after I responded to
your first question. Oh well. I was going to say something nasty,
but since you have already demonstrated your resounding intellect,
I'll wait. No sense in kicking a wounded man.
Lizard
Another evasion of actually answering my question.
I know why: you quite simply cannot support your outrageous claim of
precise dating.
You may, of course, believe anything you like. I encourage you to
research the subject. You don't need to take my word for it.
You have not demonstrated the slightest bit of evidence to support
your claim that i am a liar, or even that I am wrong. You are the one
casting aspersions, and you made the first factual claim (that
Josephus was a forgery), and yet you accuse me of evasion. Put up or
shut up, *****. Prove me wrong. If you manage to come up with
something more credible than "You are wrong" I might engage with you,
until then, you are just boring me. Until then, this is my last word
on this subject. But please feel free to rant and rave some more.
Lizard
Lizard
.
|
|
|
| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: when jesus died on the cross ... |
07 Oct 2007 09:03:36 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 07 Oct 2007 10:46:05 -0000, Lizard <lizardpriest@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Oct 7, 6:19 am, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Sun, 07 Oct 2007 07:08:33 -0000, Lizard <lizardpri...@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Oct 6, 9:43 pm, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 07:18:04 -0700, Budikka666 <budik...@netscape.net>
wrote:
On Oct 6, 8:11 am, Lizard <lizardpri...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 6, 9:03 am, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 12:45:53 -0000, Lizard <lizardpri...@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Oct 6, 1:21 am, "Alt.Drugs.Hard" <doneganm...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
"Michael Gray" <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:g0hdg31acf0942kincd50fg056cj60rdir@4ax.com...
On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 12:30:37 -0700, wrote:
just john wrote:
... did he lose bladder and sphincter control?
I'd wager "no". As he'd hung there for three days, he likely pissed
and
***** himself long before dying, if he didn't have the ***** literally
kicked
out of him before he ever even got nailed up. Sometimes a sympathetic
guard would allow the condemned a taste of bitter wine as he hung on
the
cross, but certainly not enough to fill a bladder. Considering Christ
was
also stabbed in the side, it's conceivable he could have bled out of
his
***** upon his demise.
Aren't you glad you asked?
Why are you discussing a mythical person, and a mythical event as
though it were real?
I was under the impresssion that Jesus was a real person who was crucified,
although I don't buy into any of the "healing the lame, walking on water,
turning water into wine" *****. I say this because I believe he was mentioned
in other writings.(Josephus) Yeah, I don't doubt he lived, but to me, if
Christians were to admit he was "just" a normal human being, without the
"son of God" stuff, his stock goes up. I mean,if you're the son of God,
hell, you're pretty much Superman. But if you preach love and peace and all
that, ata time when he had to know where he was headed, makes me consider
him a truly amazing guy. But if you're Superman, well then, that kind of
stuff is no big deal.
Mike
Jesus is mentioned twice in Josephus, (once directly, and once as the
brother of James the Just) but both mentions are probably spurious
additions added by the Church transcribers as late as 320 AD. in
about 100 AD, there was a written debate on the historical veracity of
Jesus between Justin the Philosopher and a jew named Typhro. Justin
the Philosopher makes repeated reference to Josephus but never refers
to the two passages in which he is supposed to mention Jesus. This is
a very good indicator that, at least in Justin's copy of Josephus,
there was no mention of him. In fact, NO early church writer mentions
Josephus' s Jesus references until 315 AD.
The historical reality of a guy named Jesus mucking about in the
middle east is still very much an open issue.
Lizard
"josephus" is a long and well acknowledged forgery.
While Josephus CONTAINS several forgeries, the works of Josephus
themselves are not at issue. In fact, we have a much better grasp on
who Josephus was (an apostate Jew working for Rome) and what he did
than we do Jesus. Josephus, while inacurate in several places and
modified in several others, is not a forgery, and we can precisely
date his writings.
Lizard
And tellingly, whilst Josephus reports a manner of Herodian scandal,
he never once mentions anything about Herod ordering the killing of
infants.
In short, the very text that idiot Christians ignorantly call into
service to support the historical reality of their mythical messiah,
actually refutes the gospels!
Lizard claims that he was involved in the precise dating of these
documents, although I suspect this to be a lie on many levels.
Darn, I missed the post calling me a liar until after I responded to
your first question. Oh well. I was going to say something nasty,
but since you have already demonstrated your resounding intellect,
I'll wait. No sense in kicking a wounded man.
Lizard
Another evasion of actually answering my question.
I know why: you quite simply cannot support your outrageous claim of
precise dating.
You may, of course, believe anything you like. I encourage you to
research the subject. You don't need to take my word for it.
You have not demonstrated the slightest bit of evidence to support
your claim that i am a liar, or even that I am wrong. You are the one
casting aspersions, and you made the first factual claim (that
Josephus was a forgery), and yet you accuse me of evasion. Put up or
shut up, *****. Prove me wrong. If you manage to come up with
something more credible than "You are wrong" I might engage with you,
until then, you are just boring me. Until then, this is my last word
on this subject. But please feel free to rant and rave some more.
*You* made the utterly ridiculous and unsupportabel assertion!!
It is not up to me to disprove it!!
Jesus H. Christ on a crutch, you are infuriatinglyu illogical and
criminally evasive, yet you blame me for your failings!
You are not worth the time of day.
*PLONK*
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| User: "Lizard" |
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| Title: Re: when jesus died on the cross ... |
08 Oct 2007 11:39:01 AM |
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*You* made the utterly ridiculous and unsupportabel assertion!!
God, I really hate morons with computers. Look, you CAN'T be
illiterate, you can use a keyboard.
If you can read, go back and look at the correspondence. the first
factually absurd claim was made by you. "Josephus is a forgery".
This leads to three almost completely irrefutable points.
1) you have no clue what you are talking about (Josephus is not a
text that can or cannot be dated, He was a Jew living in Palestine a
few thousand years ago. He WROTE 4 major works. I was referring
mostly the "the Jewish War" by Josephus, but also "Jewish Antiquities"
and one other minor text.
2) you are wrong, and a simple google search will demonstrate to
anybody with a functioning brain.
3) You have the I.Q. of a lobotomized tadpole.
It is not my responsibility to do your research for you, so I won't.
Have a nice day. :-)
Lizard
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: when jesus died on the cross ... |
06 Oct 2007 08:41:48 PM |
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On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 13:11:31 -0000, Lizard <lizardpriest@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Oct 6, 9:03 am, Michael Gray <mikeg...@newsguy.com> wrote:
:
"josephus" is a long and well acknowledged forgery.
While Josephus CONTAINS several forgeries, the works of Josephus
themselves are not at issue. In fact, we have a much better grasp on
who Josephus was (an apostate Jew working for Rome) and what he did
than we do Jesus. Josephus, while inacurate in several places and
modified in several others, is not a forgery, and we can precisely
date his writings.
"We"???
Who are "we" exactly, and why do you place yourself in that category?
And I would be very pleased to know exactly how these non-original
documents can be dated "precisely".
Carbon dating of copies of copies?
Nuclear activation of 13th C copies of copies?
Feel free to explain this, as you clearly include yourself in those
who have dated the Josephus frauds.
Don't skimp now.
I await your responses, not a bunch of cut-n-paste rubbish from a
Christian website.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: when jesus died on the cross ... |
05 Oct 2007 07:26:12 PM |
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"Michael Gray" <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:g0hdg31acf0942kincd50fg056cj60rdir@4ax.com...
On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 12:30:37 -0700, wrote:
just john wrote:
... did he lose bladder and sphincter control?
I'd wager "no". As he'd hung there for three days, he likely pissed
and
***** himself long before dying, if he didn't have the ***** literally
kicked
out of him before he ever even got nailed up. Sometimes a sympathetic
guard would allow the condemned a taste of bitter wine as he hung on
the
cross, but certainly not enough to fill a bladder. Considering Christ
was
also stabbed in the side, it's conceivable he could have bled out of
his
***** upon his demise.
Aren't you glad you asked?
Why are you discussing a mythical person, and a mythical event as
though it were real?
why are you falling into the trap of asking why? that's what the puppet
masters want you to do; waste time on pointing out your truth to your fake
enemies.
they're gonna own you then you won't even have the freedom to ***** on
mythical creations
myths are good for getting at truth, though
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: when jesus died on the cross ... |
07 Oct 2007 04:41:03 PM |
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On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 08:45:13 +0930, Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote:
Why are you discussing a mythical person, and a mythical event as
though it were real?
Eye witnesses.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "Joseph Littleshoes" |
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| Title: Re: when jesus died on the cross ... |
07 Oct 2007 06:19:47 PM |
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duke wrote:
On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 08:45:13 +0930, Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote:
Why are you discussing a mythical person, and a mythical event as
though it were real?
Eye witnesses.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Merely as an example of dissenting thought on the Priestly Monopoly.
And they belief that any one can and should practice the Mass.
http://www.hermetic.com/sabazius/gnostic_mass.htm
The Creed (Credo)
The DEACON and all the PEOPLE: I believe in one secret and ineffable
LORD; and in one Star in the Company of Stars of whose fire we are
created, and to which we shall return; and in one Father of Life,
Mystery of Mystery, in His name CHAOS, the sole viceregent of the Sun
upon the Earth; and in one Air the nourisher of all that breathes.
And I believe in one Earth, the Mother of us all, and in one Womb
wherein all men are begotten, and wherein they shall rest, Mystery of
Mystery, in Her name BABALON.
And I believe in the Serpent and the Lion, Mystery of Mystery, in His
name BAPHOMET.
And I believe in one Gnostic and Catholic Church of Light, Life, Love
and Liberty, the Word of whose Law is THELÊMA.
And I believe in the communion of Saints.
And, forasmuch as meat and drink are transmuted in us daily into
spiritual substance, I believe in the Miracle of the Mass.
And I confess one Baptism of Wisdom whereby we accomplish the Miracle of
Incarnation.
And I confess my life one, individual, and eternal that was, and is, and
is to come.
The Anthem
The PRIEST:
Thou who art I, beyond all I am,
Who hast no nature and no name,
Who art, when all but Thou are gone,
Thou, centre and secret of the Sun,
Thou, hidden spring of all things known
And unknown, Thou aloof, alone,
Thou, the true fire within the reed
Brooding and breeding, source and seed
Of life, love, liberty, and light,
Thou beyond speech and beyond sight,
Thee I invoke, my faint fresh fire
Kindling as mine intents aspire.
Thee I invoke, abiding one,
Thee, centre and secret of the Sun,
And that most holy mystery
Of which the vehicle am I.
Appear, most awful and most mild,
As it is lawful, in thy child!
The CHORUS:
For of the Father and the Son
The Holy Spirit is the norm;
Male-female, quintessential, one,
Man-being veiled in Woman-form.
Glory and worship in the highest,
Thou Dove, mankind that deifiest,
Being that race, most royally run
To spring sunshine through winter storm.
Glory and worship be to Thee,
Sap of the world-ash, wonder-tree!
First Semichorus, MEN:
Glory to Thee from Gilded Tomb!
Second Semichorus, WOMEN:
Glory to Thee from Waiting Womb!
MEN:
Glory to Thee from earth unploughed!
WOMEN:
Glory to Thee from virgin vowed!
MEN:
Glory to Thee, true Unity
Of the Eternal Trinity!
WOMEN:
Glory to Thee, thou sire and dam
And self of I am that I am!
MEN:
Glory to Thee, beyond all term,
Thy spring of sperm, thy seed and germ!
WOMEN:
Glory to Thee, eternal Sun,
Thou One in Three, Thou Three in One!
CHORUS:
Glory and worship be to Thee,
Sap of the world-ash, wonder-tree!
--
JL
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: when jesus died on the cross ... |
07 Oct 2007 04:39:56 PM |
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On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 12:30:37 -0700, wrote:
just john wrote:
... did he lose bladder and sphincter control?
I'd wager "no". As he'd hung there for three days,
??? Say what?
Aren't you glad you asked?
robcypher.livejournal.com
(561) 454-2914
Well, let's just say he's still waiting on an answer.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "Conspiracy of Doves" |
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| Title: Re: when jesus died on the cross ... |
05 Oct 2007 02:55:30 PM |
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On Oct 5, 3:30 pm, wrote:
just john wrote:
... did he lose bladder and sphincter control?
I'd wager "no". As he'd hung there for three days, he likely pissed
and
***** himself long before dying, if he didn't have the ***** literally
kicked
out of him before he ever even got nailed up. Sometimes a sympathetic
guard would allow the condemned a taste of bitter wine as he hung on
the
cross, but certainly not enough to fill a bladder. Considering Christ
was
also stabbed in the side, it's conceivable he could have bled out of
his
***** upon his demise.
Aren't you glad you asked?
robcypher.livejournal.com
(561) 454-2914
According to the story, he was up there for less than a day.
Yes, normally when someone was crucified, they were up there for three
days.
/Just sayin'
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| User: "jellybean stonerfish" |
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| Title: Re: when jesus died on the cross ... |
05 Oct 2007 11:06:51 PM |
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On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 12:55:30 -0700, Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
According to the story, he was up there for less than a day.
Yes, normally when someone was crucified, they were up there for three
days.
Hey Peter, . . . I can see your house from up here!
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| User: "So you Diane I" |
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| Title: Re: when jesus died on the cross ... |
06 Oct 2007 03:56:09 PM |
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"jellybean stonerfish" <stonerfish@geocities.com> wrote in message
news:vRDNi.38490$RX.4382@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net...
On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 12:55:30 -0700, Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
According to the story, he was up there for less than a day.
Yes, normally when someone was crucified, they were up there for three
days.
Hey Peter, . . . I can see your house from up here!
He died ?? When was that ?? Why didn't anyone tell me ?? Ooops .. .sorry .
..I forgot. I am a jew, I killed him. Nevermind ...
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| User: "Alt.Drugs.Hard" |
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| Title: Re: when jesus died on the cross ... |
08 Oct 2007 07:52:16 AM |
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"So you Diane I" <dianewhatever@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:t--dnVnTtsLca5ranZ2dnUVZ_uSgnZ2d@giganews.com...
"jellybean stonerfish" <stonerfish@geocities.com> wrote in message
news:vRDNi.38490$RX.4382@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net...
On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 12:55:30 -0700, Conspiracy of Doves wrote:
According to the story, he was up there for less than a day.
Yes, normally when someone was crucified, they were up there for three
days.
Hey Peter, . . . I can see your house from up here!
He died ?? When was that ?? Why didn't anyone tell me ?? Ooops .. .sorry .
.I forgot. I am a jew, I killed him. Nevermind ...
What really kills me are these redneck swastika goosestepping moron groups
who call themelves Christians...but hate the Jews. Is it somehow possible
that they're just too stupid, or perhaps illiterate to realize that Jesus
was a Jew? How do they rationalize that one? I'd love to have one of them
explain it to me, but I'm thinking intelligent discussion isn't one of their
strong points.
Mike
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