| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Sara" |
| Date: |
04 Apr 2004 08:21:22 AM |
| Object: |
Re: Where are all the transitional fossils ? |
No super-humans if medicine remains on the same track. If anything I
believe we will become weaker. In nature, only the strongest survive and go
on to reproduce. In human civilization, especially in technologically
advanced civilizations, we try to help everyone to survive. What is that
doing to our gene pool? I don't know, but it sounds as if we are not
helping our gene pool out very much.
Don't get me wrong, Medicine is a wonderful thing. I am just throwing an
idea out there that not a lot of people think of.
Sara the student
"El-Bazooll" <bazooll@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d82c0552.0403301540.47b4c68@posting.google.com...
"ROCK" <no@email.com> wrote in message
news:<baadna66fOPkWfXdRVn-hQ@comcast.com>...
Okay the question is. Where are all the human fossils?
Where are all the transitional fossils for both human and animal?
I just want to know.
Aren't all fossils transitional? I'm just asking because I see biology
as a continuity, not a series of steps. Saying that a species is
transitional is not very fair to the species in question. Maybe we're
just a transitional form between our ancestors and a future species of
"super-humans" :P
(I'm just asking :P)
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| User: "Steve Schaffner" |
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| Title: Re: Where are all the transitional fossils ? |
05 Apr 2004 11:56:35 AM |
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"Sara" <sara1@cafes.net> writes:
No super-humans if medicine remains on the same track. If anything I
believe we will become weaker. In nature, only the strongest survive and go
on to reproduce. In human civilization, especially in technologically
advanced civilizations, we try to help everyone to survive. What is that
doing to our gene pool? I don't know, but it sounds as if we are not
helping our gene pool out very much.
Don't get me wrong, Medicine is a wonderful thing. I am just throwing an
idea out there that not a lot of people think of.
Medicine has had a significant effect on human survival for an
extremely short time, genetically speaking. I don't doubt that we
will be manipulating our genomes long before we have to worry about
medicine increasing the frequency of "bad" traits.
--
Steve Schaffner
Immediate assurance is an excellent sign of probable lack of
insight into the topic. Josiah Royce
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| User: "Eric Witte" |
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| Title: Re: Where are all the transitional fossils ? |
15 Apr 2004 12:15:22 PM |
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Steve Schaffner <sfs@darwin.broad.mit.edu> wrote in message news:<ydl7jwujrcs.fsf@darwin.broad.mit.edu>...
"Sara" <sara1@cafes.net> writes:
No super-humans if medicine remains on the same track. If anything I
believe we will become weaker. In nature, only the strongest survive and go
on to reproduce. In human civilization, especially in technologically
advanced civilizations, we try to help everyone to survive. What is that
doing to our gene pool? I don't know, but it sounds as if we are not
helping our gene pool out very much.
Don't get me wrong, Medicine is a wonderful thing. I am just throwing an
idea out there that not a lot of people think of.
Medicine has had a significant effect on human survival for an
extremely short time, genetically speaking. I don't doubt that we
will be manipulating our genomes long before we have to worry about
medicine increasing the frequency of "bad" traits.
Really. Who cares if we eventually remove all of the bad traits ourselves?
Eric
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| User: "Kermit" |
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| Title: Re: Where are all the transitional fossils ? |
16 Apr 2004 10:54:37 AM |
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"Sara" <sara1@cafes.net> wrote in message news:<40700bc7@news.isdn.net>...
No super-humans if medicine remains on the same track. If anything I
believe we will become weaker. In nature, only the strongest survive and go
on to reproduce. In human civilization, especially in technologically
advanced civilizations, we try to help everyone to survive. What is that
doing to our gene pool? I don't know, but it sounds as if we are not
helping our gene pool out very much.
Don't get me wrong, Medicine is a wonderful thing. I am just throwing an
idea out there that not a lot of people think of.
Sara the student
Oh, yeah, sure. I'm extremely near-sighted, and would not have
survived as a hunter-gatherer. Probably not as a medieval farmer. But
my kids are brighter than average, and my adult son has had his eyes
fixed surgically. My daughter will in a few more years. Are we well
adapted to this environment? Is it better to be average and 20-20, or
smart and fixable?
It's all moot anyway. We have already retroactively cured genetic
diseases (several "bubble-boy" babies in France). In another
generation my descendants will be born with genetically perfect eyes.
We are about to embark on a self-directed course of genetic change,
one only partially affected by natural selection. For good or ill,
soon all bets will be off.
"El-Bazooll" <bazooll@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d82c0552.0403301540.47b4c68@posting.google.com...
"ROCK" <no@email.com> wrote in message
news:<baadna66fOPkWfXdRVn-hQ@comcast.com>...
Okay the question is. Where are all the human fossils?
Where are all the transitional fossils for both human and animal?
I just want to know.
Aren't all fossils transitional? I'm just asking because I see biology
as a continuity, not a series of steps. Saying that a species is
transitional is not very fair to the species in question. Maybe we're
just a transitional form between our ancestors and a future species of
"super-humans" :P
(I'm just asking :P)
Kermit
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| User: "Terry/Anti" |
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| Title: Re: Where are all the transitional fossils ? |
05 Apr 2004 01:20:22 AM |
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"Sara" <sara1@cafes.net> wrote in message news:40700bc7@news.isdn.net...
No super-humans if medicine remains on the same track. If anything I
believe we will become weaker. In nature, only the strongest survive and
go
on to reproduce. In human civilization, especially in technologically
advanced civilizations, we try to help everyone to survive. What is that
doing to our gene pool? I don't know, but it sounds as if we are not
helping our gene pool out very much.
Don't get me wrong, Medicine is a wonderful thing. I am just throwing an
idea out there that not a lot of people think of.
Sara the student
Don't be so sure about that. I've thought of that. And if I have, I'll bet
many others have too. I think it's one of those things you keep to yourself
for fear of being called insensitive, or worse.
Gramps
Move the @ ahead of hot to email me.
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| User: "Aardvark G. Bandersnatch, CPE, RCA, IBM, LSMFT" |
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| Title: Re: Where are all the transitional fossils ? |
06 Apr 2004 10:06:10 AM |
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"Terry/Anti" <GrandpaTDhot@mail.com> wrote in message
news:1071uq81paljncf@corp.supernews.com...
"Sara" <sara1@cafes.net> wrote in message news:40700bc7@news.isdn.net...
No super-humans if medicine remains on the same track. If anything I
believe we will become weaker. In nature, only the strongest survive
and
go
on to reproduce.
like opossums and skunks and skinks. They are so like really strong and
stuff.
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| User: "Wexford" |
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| Title: Re: Where are all the transitional fossils ? |
05 Apr 2004 08:12:16 AM |
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"Terry/Anti" <GrandpaTDhot@mail.com> wrote in message news:<1071uq81paljncf@corp.supernews.com>...
"Sara" <sara1@cafes.net> wrote in message news:40700bc7@news.isdn.net...
No super-humans if medicine remains on the same track. If anything I
believe we will become weaker. In nature, only the strongest survive and
go
on to reproduce. In human civilization, especially in technologically
advanced civilizations, we try to help everyone to survive. What is that
doing to our gene pool? I don't know, but it sounds as if we are not
helping our gene pool out very much.
Don't get me wrong, Medicine is a wonderful thing. I am just throwing an
idea out there that not a lot of people think of.
Sara the student
Don't be so sure about that. I've thought of that. And if I have, I'll bet
many others have too. I think it's one of those things you keep to yourself
for fear of being called insensitive, or worse.
The NAZIs thought quite a bit about it and their scientific
successors, the Eugenics people, think and write about it all the
time. Following "gene pool" logic, one of the greatest theoretical
physicists of all time, Steven Hawking, who has MS, would have been
forbidden from reproducing. I'm certain that if you looked at the
family history of any number of great and famous men, there would be
reasons to declare them unfit. The Mayo brothers were short. John F.
Kennedy had Addison's Disease. Abraham Lincoln was subject to
depression. Winston Churchill was a poor student. As a child, Edison
was considered "addled." One of my co-workers had Hodgkins Disease
when he was a teenager. He survived well enough to enter the Army
when he was 22. Aside from a military career that took him to the
rank of full Colonel, he earned a Ph.D. in Industrial Engineering and
is a published author in the field. Should he have been chemically
castrated at 17? How about people born with cleft pallets, or club
feet, or any one of a thousand easily curable disorders? Would the
world be a better place, would mankind be stronger if we tied their
tubes?
And if you still think it's a good idea, who would we anoint with the
power to determine who should be able to reproduce and who shouldn't?
John Ashcroft? Some Ayatollah? An elected judge?
Wexford
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| User: "Terry/Anti" |
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| Title: Re: Where are all the transitional fossils ? |
05 Apr 2004 12:29:58 PM |
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"Wexford" <wexford1778@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f53a27bf.0404050512.3df3628@posting.google.com...
"Terry/Anti" <GrandpaTDhot@mail.com> wrote in message
news:<1071uq81paljncf@corp.supernews.com>...
"Sara" <sara1@cafes.net> wrote in message news:40700bc7@news.isdn.net...
No super-humans if medicine remains on the same track. If anything I
believe we will become weaker. In nature, only the strongest survive
and
go
on to reproduce. In human civilization, especially in technologically
advanced civilizations, we try to help everyone to survive. What is
that
doing to our gene pool? I don't know, but it sounds as if we are not
helping our gene pool out very much.
Don't get me wrong, Medicine is a wonderful thing. I am just throwing
an
idea out there that not a lot of people think of.
Sara the student
Don't be so sure about that. I've thought of that. And if I have, I'll
bet
many others have too. I think it's one of those things you keep to
yourself
for fear of being called insensitive, or worse.
The NAZIs thought quite a bit about it and their scientific
successors, the Eugenics people, think and write about it all the
time. Following "gene pool" logic, one of the greatest theoretical
physicists of all time, Steven Hawking, who has MS, would have been
forbidden from reproducing. I'm certain that if you looked at the
family history of any number of great and famous men, there would be
reasons to declare them unfit. The Mayo brothers were short. John F.
Kennedy had Addison's Disease. Abraham Lincoln was subject to
depression. Winston Churchill was a poor student. As a child, Edison
was considered "addled." One of my co-workers had Hodgkins Disease
when he was a teenager. He survived well enough to enter the Army
when he was 22. Aside from a military career that took him to the
rank of full Colonel, he earned a Ph.D. in Industrial Engineering and
is a published author in the field. Should he have been chemically
castrated at 17? How about people born with cleft pallets, or club
feet, or any one of a thousand easily curable disorders? Would the
world be a better place, would mankind be stronger if we tied their
tubes?
And if you still think it's a good idea, who would we anoint with the
power to determine who should be able to reproduce and who shouldn't?
John Ashcroft? Some Ayatollah? An elected judge?
Wexford
You read way more into my post than was there. I am pro life and have no
desire for anyone to be sterilized. My concern is what science is doing to
the gene pool. Your response is a perfect example of why I people keep their
thoughts on it to themselves.
Gramps
Move the @ ahead of hot to email me.
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| User: "David Jensen" |
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| Title: Re: Where are all the transitional fossils ? |
04 Apr 2004 10:52:27 AM |
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In alt.talk.creationism, "Sara" <sara1@cafes.net> wrote in
<40700bc7@news.isdn.net>:
No super-humans if medicine remains on the same track. If anything I
believe we will become weaker. In nature, only the strongest survive and go
on to reproduce. In human civilization, especially in technologically
advanced civilizations, we try to help everyone to survive. What is that
doing to our gene pool? I don't know, but it sounds as if we are not
helping our gene pool out very much.
Why not? Intelligence is a major value in society today that is not
limited to those who are physically most robust. Children died as they
were being born because c-sections had not been perfected. Diabetics
live far longer.
Don't get me wrong, Medicine is a wonderful thing. I am just throwing an
idea out there that not a lot of people think of.
I'm not persuaded.
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| User: "r norman" |
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| Title: Re: Where are all the transitional fossils ? |
04 Apr 2004 08:46:28 AM |
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On Sun, 4 Apr 2004 08:21:22 -0500, "Sara" <sara1@cafes.net> wrote:
No super-humans if medicine remains on the same track. If anything I
believe we will become weaker. In nature, only the strongest survive and go
on to reproduce. In human civilization, especially in technologically
advanced civilizations, we try to help everyone to survive. What is that
doing to our gene pool? I don't know, but it sounds as if we are not
helping our gene pool out very much.
Don't get me wrong, Medicine is a wonderful thing. I am just throwing an
idea out there that not a lot of people think of.
Did you ever consider that, even with modern medicine, it is still the
"strongest" that survive? It is just that, in the context of modern
civilization which includes public health measures and medical
intervention, the notion of fitness has changed.
It is always true that fitness depends on the environment, including
the social environment, in which an organism is living. It is common
for organisms to incapable of surviving in isolation. They depend on
the support from others in the environment including, for many, the
actions of conspecifics in their social group.
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| User: "John Popelish" |
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| Title: Re: Where are all the transitional fossils ? |
05 Apr 2004 08:48:46 AM |
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Sara wrote:
No super-humans if medicine remains on the same track. If anything I
believe we will become weaker. In nature, only the strongest survive and go
on to reproduce. In human civilization, especially in technologically
advanced civilizations, we try to help everyone to survive. What is that
doing to our gene pool? I don't know, but it sounds as if we are not
helping our gene pool out very much.
Don't get me wrong, Medicine is a wonderful thing. I am just throwing an
idea out there that not a lot of people think of.
The real test for a species occurs when conditions change
dramatically. And the way that species survive such tests is not by
being all very similar and well tuned to the old conditions, but by
having a large population of variations so that some might be better
suited to the new conditions than others are. Modern medicine and
other technology allows the human race to support a much wider range
of variations than would otherwise be possible. This improves the
chance that enough members of our species will survive changes in our
situation to keep the species viable.
--
John Popelish
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| User: "Lam Son 719" |
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| Title: Re: Where are all the transitional fossils ? |
08 Apr 2004 11:46:57 AM |
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Your terminology ("super", "weaker", "strongest") is loaded with just
the sort of value judgements that natural selection doesn't make.
Which is "stronger", an earthworm or a tapeworm? An E. coli or an
elephant? Life bifurcates and explores--every method of producing
viable copy-making copies is fair game. Perhaps modern medicine will
alter the selection criteria long enough to produce a human genetic
stock that is no longer optimized for a paleolithic lifestyle. So
what? Eyeglasses probably did that a long time ago. Maybe a few tens
of thousands of years ago, someone noticed that the habit of wearing
other creatures' furs was encouraging the survival of virtually
hairless freaks, and wrung their hands over the "weakened" gene pool.
So far, the loss hasn't counted for much.
It may not be pretty, but the disappearance of formerly adaptive
traits in new selective regimes is itself adaptive.
"Sara" <sara1@cafes.net> wrote in message news:<40700bc7@news.isdn.net>...
No super-humans if medicine remains on the same track. If anything I
believe we will become weaker. In nature, only the strongest survive and go
on to reproduce. In human civilization, especially in technologically
advanced civilizations, we try to help everyone to survive. What is that
doing to our gene pool? I don't know, but it sounds as if we are not
helping our gene pool out very much.
Don't get me wrong, Medicine is a wonderful thing. I am just throwing an
idea out there that not a lot of people think of.
Sara the student
"El-Bazooll" <bazooll@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d82c0552.0403301540.47b4c68@posting.google.com...
"ROCK" <no@email.com> wrote in message
news:<baadna66fOPkWfXdRVn-hQ@comcast.com>...
Okay the question is. Where are all the human fossils?
Where are all the transitional fossils for both human and animal?
I just want to know.
Aren't all fossils transitional? I'm just asking because I see biology
as a continuity, not a series of steps. Saying that a species is
transitional is not very fair to the species in question. Maybe we're
just a transitional form between our ancestors and a future species of
"super-humans" :P
(I'm just asking :P)
.
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| User: "Ivan Turosky" |
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| Title: Re: Where are all the transitional fossils ? |
08 Apr 2004 12:14:13 PM |
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Lam Son 719 wrote:
There is a name I haven't heard in 30 years. Were you in that
operation? I was with a Marine radar controlled bombing unit there.
Or maybe all this is just a coincidence....
Ivan T.
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| User: "Lam Son 719" |
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| Title: Re: Where are all the transitional fossils ? |
09 Apr 2004 08:27:30 PM |
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There is a name I haven't heard in 30 years. Were you in that
operation? I was with a Marine radar controlled bombing unit there.
Or maybe all this is just a coincidence....
Ivan T.
Sorry, Ivan. Didn't mean to spark any flashbacks. I was eight years
old in the North side of Chicago when Lam Son 719 occurred. Pressed by
Google for a posting name, I decided to pick an obscure (for most
people) historical reference that might nonetheless have a certain
chilly resonance at the moment.
Besides, it might have had a role in our evolution as a species.
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| User: "zolota" |
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| Title: Re: Where are all the transitional fossils ? |
14 Apr 2004 11:41:08 PM |
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"Lam Son 719" <scriptfish@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:24745476.0404091727.1717c511@posting.google.com...
There is a name I haven't heard in 30 years. Were you in that
operation? I was with a Marine radar controlled bombing unit there.
Or maybe all this is just a coincidence....
Ivan T.
Sorry, Ivan. Didn't mean to spark any flashbacks. I was eight years
old in the North side of Chicago when Lam Son 719 occurred. Pressed by
Google for a posting name, I decided to pick an obscure (for most
people) historical reference that might nonetheless have a certain
chilly resonance at the moment.
Besides, it might have had a role in our evolution as a species.
It certainly terminated some gene lines.
Z
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