| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Monday Mourning" |
| Date: |
20 Nov 2003 08:42:03 PM |
| Object: |
Re: Why fear of God is stupid |
"bear163" <bear163@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<U3Gqb.752$6c3.371@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
Why is it dangerous not to fear God? Is God cruel? Ought we dread our maker?
The Bible insists that God is good. Is the Bible wrong? No, indeed? God is
good and God is dangerous. In fact, God is dangerous precisely because he is
good. God is so good that he will be entirely impartial on the coming day
when he judges the world.
Many years ago I accompanied to the court a woman being divorced by her
famous husband. The judge sold his soul while we all watched. In order to
serve the interests of the team for whom the husband played, the judge
ignored the facts that favored the wife and ruled for the husband. When God
reopens that case the outcome will be entirely different. Because God is
good and cannot be bribed he will render a righteous judgment. We who
believe ought to live out our days with the reverence and awe of God that
the Bible rightly calls fear. It is this fear of the Lord that is the
beginning of wisdom.
Fear is not the beginning of wisdom, moron. It's the end of intelligence.
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| User: "Mark Earnest" |
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| Title: Re: Why fear of God is stupid |
20 Nov 2003 10:32:07 PM |
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"Monday Mourning" <mondaze_mourning@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:afdc7c71.0311201842.2856cd02@posting.google.com...
"bear163" <bear163@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:<U3Gqb.752$6c3.371@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
Why is it dangerous not to fear God? Is God cruel? Ought we dread our
maker?
The Bible insists that God is good. Is the Bible wrong? No, indeed? God
is
good and God is dangerous. In fact, God is dangerous precisely because
he is
good. God is so good that he will be entirely impartial on the coming
day
when he judges the world.
Many years ago I accompanied to the court a woman being divorced by her
famous husband. The judge sold his soul while we all watched. In order
to
serve the interests of the team for whom the husband played, the judge
ignored the facts that favored the wife and ruled for the husband. When
God
reopens that case the outcome will be entirely different. Because God is
good and cannot be bribed he will render a righteous judgment. We who
believe ought to live out our days with the reverence and awe of God
that
the Bible rightly calls fear. It is this fear of the Lord that is the
beginning of wisdom.
Fear is not the beginning of wisdom, moron. It's the end of intelligence.
Why do you not walk out in the woods through bushes with rattles coming from
it?
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| User: "the cutest atheist" |
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| Title: Re: Why fear of God is stupid |
21 Nov 2003 02:18:21 AM |
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"Mark Earnest" <gmearnest@SPAMLESSairmail.net> wrote in message
news:bpk4eh$1l8@library1.airnews.net...
"Monday Mourning" <mondaze_mourning@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:afdc7c71.0311201842.2856cd02@posting.google.com...
"bear163" <bear163@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:<U3Gqb.752$6c3.371@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
Why is it dangerous not to fear God? Is God cruel? Ought we dread our
maker?
The Bible insists that God is good. Is the Bible wrong? No, indeed?
God
is
good and God is dangerous. In fact, God is dangerous precisely because
he is
good. God is so good that he will be entirely impartial on the coming
day
when he judges the world.
Many years ago I accompanied to the court a woman being divorced by
her
famous husband. The judge sold his soul while we all watched. In order
to
serve the interests of the team for whom the husband played, the judge
ignored the facts that favored the wife and ruled for the husband.
When
God
reopens that case the outcome will be entirely different. Because God
is
good and cannot be bribed he will render a righteous judgment. We who
believe ought to live out our days with the reverence and awe of God
that
the Bible rightly calls fear. It is this fear of the Lord that is the
beginning of wisdom.
Fear is not the beginning of wisdom, moron. It's the end of
intelligence.
Why do you not walk out in the woods through bushes with rattles coming
from
it?
is this some kind of code?
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: Why fear of God is stupid |
21 Nov 2003 11:24:25 AM |
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In article <bpk4eh$1l8@library1.airnews.net>,
gmearnest@SPAMLESSairmail.net says...
"Monday Mourning" <mondaze_mourning@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:afdc7c71.0311201842.2856cd02@posting.google.com...
"bear163" <bear163@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:<U3Gqb.752$6c3.371@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
Why is it dangerous not to fear God? Is God cruel? Ought we dread our
maker?
The Bible insists that God is good. Is the Bible wrong? No, indeed? God
is
good and God is dangerous. In fact, God is dangerous precisely because
he is
good. God is so good that he will be entirely impartial on the coming
day
when he judges the world.
Many years ago I accompanied to the court a woman being divorced by her
famous husband. The judge sold his soul while we all watched. In order
to
serve the interests of the team for whom the husband played, the judge
ignored the facts that favored the wife and ruled for the husband. When
God
reopens that case the outcome will be entirely different. Because God is
good and cannot be bribed he will render a righteous judgment. We who
believe ought to live out our days with the reverence and awe of God
that
the Bible rightly calls fear. It is this fear of the Lord that is the
beginning of wisdom.
Fear is not the beginning of wisdom, moron. It's the end of intelligence.
Why do you not walk out in the woods through bushes with rattles coming from
it?
If it's possible to parse your rather awkward prose I would answer that
herpetologists (no jokes please) do this all the time. Some of them do
wear big leather chaps and shin guards though :). But unlike a healthy
fear of poisonous snakes, which are real things, fear of god is merely
fearing a childish fantasy which has no basis in reality.
--
_____________________________________________________
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.
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| User: "angelicusrex" |
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| Title: Re: Why fear of God is stupid |
21 Nov 2003 11:50:55 AM |
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"quibbler" <quibbler247@atyahoo.com> wrote in message
If it's possible to parse your rather awkward prose I would answer that
herpetologists (no jokes please) do this all the time. Some of them do
wear big leather chaps and shin guards though :). But unlike a healthy
fear of poisonous snakes, which are real things, fear of god is merely
fearing a childish fantasy which has no basis in reality.
--
Your disbelief in God is just as much as a fantasy as a belief in God. If
what you are saying is that you "believe" there is no God, but cannot prove
it.
There is a God. There is absolutely no need to fear God.
Saint
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| User: "the cutest atheist" |
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| Title: Re: Why fear of God is stupid |
21 Nov 2003 08:18:04 PM |
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"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bplj97$1qj0a0$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de...
"quibbler" <quibbler247@atyahoo.com> wrote in message
If it's possible to parse your rather awkward prose I would answer that
herpetologists (no jokes please) do this all the time. Some of them do
wear big leather chaps and shin guards though :). But unlike a healthy
fear of poisonous snakes, which are real things, fear of god is merely
fearing a childish fantasy which has no basis in reality.
--
Your disbelief in God is just as much as a fantasy as a belief in God.
except that there's plenty of evidence to disabuse ourselves of the tales
told in the bible, and zero evidence supporting it or any other creator
If
what you are saying is that you "believe" there is no God, but cannot
prove
it.
for certain types of gods, lack of evidence is an evidence of lack...
There is a God. There is absolutely no need to fear God.
thanks for that, you just convinced me
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
that you're a fucking moron who doesn't know his bible por what it's like
out here in the real world
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| User: "Blast Femur" |
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| Title: Re: Why fear of God is stupid |
21 Nov 2003 04:52:45 PM |
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(angelicusrex) wrote in
<bplj97$1qj0a0$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de>:
"quibbler" <quibbler247@atyahoo.com> wrote in message
If it's possible to parse your rather awkward prose I would answer
that herpetologists (no jokes please) do this all the time. Some of
them do wear big leather chaps and shin guards though :). But unlike
a healthy fear of poisonous snakes, which are real things, fear of god
is merely fearing a childish fantasy which has no basis in reality.
--
Your disbelief in God is just as much as a fantasy as a belief in God.
So you're willing to admit belief in gods is a fantasy. Good start.
If what you are saying is that you "believe" there is no God, but cannot
prove it.
Actually, the foot's on the other shoe.
There is a God.
And there's the assertion. Now prove it, wise *****.
There is absolutely no need to fear God.
I tend to agree. I don't fear that which does not exist.
--
Blast Femur
______________
"A long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided
it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of
years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and
pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine
Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just for you? Doesn't it
seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of being God if
every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and *****
up Your Plan?"
-- George Carlin (NYC, 2/6/99)
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: Why fear of God is stupid |
21 Nov 2003 12:20:18 PM |
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In article <bplj97$1qj0a0$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de>,
whisperindave@msn.com says...
"quibbler" <quibbler247@atyahoo.com> wrote in message
If it's possible to parse your rather awkward prose I would answer that
herpetologists (no jokes please) do this all the time. Some of them do
wear big leather chaps and shin guards though :). But unlike a healthy
fear of poisonous snakes, which are real things, fear of god is merely
fearing a childish fantasy which has no basis in reality.
--
Your disbelief in God is just as much as a fantasy as a belief in God.
Yes and Martin Luther King was a racist for fighting racism and baldness
is a hair color and freedom is just another form of slavery. I've heard
all your idiotic chop-logic before.
If
what you are saying is that you "believe" there is no God, but cannot prove
it.
You make an assertion that all of nature was created and is controlled by
a mysterious, undetectable being. That's up to you to prove and it's a
rather tall order. I only have to point out that the evidence does not
yet support your conclusion. In fact you don't even have a single shred
of evidence you can show in your favor. So it's back to the drawing
board for you and your kindergarten apologetics, because your best args
apparently didn't even make it past the laugh test. Try again, you
pathetic putz.
There is a God.
You've not shown any evidence or argument or even a logically coherent
definition of god. As such, your claim is meaningless and the default
position is lack belief in a ridiculous proposition of this kind.
There is absolutely no need to fear God.
Wrong. According to your bible god is fear. I agree that hebrews just
personified their irrational fears and tried to name it god. However,
this doesn't mean that their fictional construct has any reality.
Saint
If you do say so yourself, eh? Theists are so arrogant and self-
worshipping. You seem to be a good example of that.
--
_____________________________________________________
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Why fear of God is stupid |
22 Nov 2003 01:39:08 AM |
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On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:50:55 -0700, "angelicusrex"
<whisperindave@msn.com> posted in alt.atheism:
"quibbler" <quibbler247@atyahoo.com> wrote in message
If it's possible to parse your rather awkward prose I would answer that
herpetologists (no jokes please) do this all the time. Some of them do
wear big leather chaps and shin guards though :). But unlike a healthy
fear of poisonous snakes, which are real things, fear of god is merely
fearing a childish fantasy which has no basis in reality.
Your disbelief in God is just as much as a fantasy as a belief in God. If
what you are saying is that you "believe" there is no God
What he's saying, as an atheist, is that he doesn't believe in any
god. Same as you - the only difference is that he lacks belief in one
more god than you do.
but cannot prove it.
Fallacy of shifting the burden. Your proof that your god DOES exist?
There is a God.
Merely your assertion.
There is absolutely no need to fear God.
Of course there isn't. Or any objective evidence that any god
objectively exists.
--
"A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he
unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand."
-- Bertrand Russell.
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "angelicusrex" |
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| Title: Re: Why fear of God is stupid |
22 Nov 2003 02:28:06 PM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
What he's saying, as an atheist, is that he doesn't believe in any
god. Same as you -
I do believe in God. Your translation is not necessary. I do speak English.
the only difference is that he lacks belief in one
more god than you do.
Choosing not to believe is not the same as "lacking" belief.
Fallacy of shifting the burden.
There is no fallacy here. Making a a statement of faith is not based on
logic. Faith cannot be either proved or disproved by logic.
Your proof that your god DOES exist?
There is no substantial objective proof that any God exists. However, since
my God has saved my life many times over, I would suppose I am living proof
that my God exists. I ned only prove it to myself. Not to anyone else. I am
not prostletyzing.
There is a God.
Merely your assertion.
This is an article of Faith. Not an assertion per se. I was speaking only to
the Faithful. The assertion here is for faithful people. Which I have enough
to argue with. Fear of God IS stupid, because God does NOT want you to fear
God. This is an article of my faith. You may believe there is no God, or
there are several gods, or that God is an octopus. But that doesn't mean it
is true. However who am I to lambaste you for worshiping an octopus?
There is absolutely no need to fear God.
Of course there isn't. Or any objective evidence that any god
objectively exists.
However subjective references and evidences are massive that something we
call God exists, even if we cannot define it, confine it or comprehend it
enough to describe it well enough to manufacture some technical way to prove
it. 100,000 years of human history posits some sort of deity. Now, either
all of those humans for all those years were illogical, irrational beings,
incapable of making any sort of rational judgements, or, rationalism and
faith have co-existed from the dawn of our history to the present time and
for whatever reason, subjectively, God exists for the majority of humanity
in one form or another. This means that relative to humanity, God exists.
Once again, this does not make it "logical" proof of God. But if one hundred
men have seen an elephant, and attempted a description which sound very much
like an elephant, Big, grey, tusks, a trunk, wrinkly skin, etc. and one man
says they are wrong, they saw no elephant, but cannot describe what it is
they saw, then we have to assume they saw the elephant and the one man did
not. Logic in the end is a great workable system for scientific analysis and
argumentation. But you cannot argue against another person's faith. It is
not within logical capacity to do so and is, in the end, unless the person
is badgering you, not really rational to argue with someone over their
faith.
Saint
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| User: "Blast Femur" |
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| Title: Re: Why fear of God is stupid |
22 Nov 2003 08:20:29 PM |
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"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in
news:bpogsl$1pplb0$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de:
<snip>
Fallacy of shifting the burden.
There is no fallacy here. Making a statement of faith is not based
on logic. Faith cannot be either proved or disproved by logic.
Exactly, and for that reason faith has no place in modern society.
Your proof that your god DOES exist?
There is no substantial objective proof that any God exists.
Good for you!
However,
since my God has saved my life many times over, I would suppose I am
living proof that my God exists.
And when a stone-age cave-dweller threw a virgin into a volcano and the
volcanic activity coincidently ceased, is this living proof there are
volcano gods?
I need only prove it to myself. Not to
anyone else. I am not prostletyzing.
Thank you.
There is a God.
Merely your assertion.
This is an article of Faith. Not an assertion per se.
Heh - please explain the difference.
I was speaking
only to the Faithful.
Yet you maintained the crosspost to alt.atheism.
The assertion here is for faithful people. Which
I have enough to argue with. Fear of God IS stupid, because God does
NOT want you to fear God. This is an article of my faith.
Which contradicts the teachings of the bible, of course. The entire
flood story is about fear of the wrath of god. Why is this in the bible
if the bible teaches that god is love?
You may
believe there is no God, or there are several gods, or that God is an
octopus. But that doesn't mean it is true. However who am I to
lambaste you for worshiping an octopus?
We, however, lambaste you for worshiping anything supernatural. Gods,
Jeebuses, devils, angels, holy ghosts... HOOEY!
There is absolutely no need to fear God.
Of course there isn't. Or any objective evidence that any god
objectively exists.
However subjective references and evidences are massive that something
we call God exists, even if we cannot define it, confine it or
comprehend it enough to describe it well enough to manufacture some
technical way to prove it. 100,000 years of human history posits some
sort of deity.
Yet the bible claims the universe began just over 6000 years ago. Please
explain.
Now, either all of those humans for all those years
were illogical, irrational beings, incapable of making any sort of
rational judgements, or, rationalism and faith have co-existed from
the dawn of our history to the present time and for whatever reason,
subjectively, God exists for the majority of humanity in one form or
another.
Don't you just hate those dieties that keep changing form? You JUST
cant' keep track of them...
This means that relative to humanity, God exists.
I say he doesn't. You say he does. It's your assertion in the positive.
Prove it. If you can't (as nobody on this planet can) we'll have to
assume non-existence.
Once again,
this does not make it "logical" proof of God. But if one hundred men
have seen an elephant, and attempted a description which sound very
much like an elephant, Big, grey, tusks, a trunk, wrinkly skin, etc.
and one man says they are wrong, they saw no elephant, but cannot
describe what it is they saw, then we have to assume they saw the
elephant and the one man did not.
The problem here is that elephants do exist, and I can show you one. Now
show me a god.
<snip>
--
Blast Femur
______________
"We look at the ancient Greeks with their gods on a mountain top throwing
lightning bolts and say, 'Those ancient Greeks. They were so silly. So
primitive and naive. Not like our religions. We have burning bushes
talking to people and guys walking on water. We're ...sophisticated.'"
-Paul Provenza
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| User: "Nevermore" |
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| Title: Re: Why fear of God is stupid |
22 Nov 2003 09:20:29 PM |
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In <bpogsl$1pplb0$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de> angelicusrex wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
What he's saying, as an atheist, is that he doesn't believe in any
god. Same as you -
I do believe in God. Your translation is not necessary. I do speak
English.
the only difference is that he lacks belief in one
more god than you do.
Choosing not to believe is not the same as "lacking" belief.
This is a distinction without a difference. Young children and adult
idiots argue whether a glass is half full or half empty. Intelligent
people realize that it contains the exact same volume of water in either
case.
If you don't believe in God then you don't believe in God. Whether you
started at that conclusion or ended there doesn't change the fact of it.
Nevermore
Fallacy of shifting the burden.
There is no fallacy here. Making a a statement of faith is not based
on logic. Faith cannot be either proved or disproved by logic.
Your proof that your god DOES exist?
There is no substantial objective proof that any God exists. However,
since my God has saved my life many times over, I would suppose I am
living proof that my God exists. I ned only prove it to myself. Not to
anyone else. I am not prostletyzing.
There is a God.
Merely your assertion.
This is an article of Faith. Not an assertion per se. I was speaking
only to the Faithful. The assertion here is for faithful people. Which
I have enough to argue with. Fear of God IS stupid, because God does
NOT want you to fear God. This is an article of my faith. You may
believe there is no God, or there are several gods, or that God is an
octopus. But that doesn't mean it is true. However who am I to
lambaste you for worshiping an octopus?
There is absolutely no need to fear God.
Of course there isn't. Or any objective evidence that any god
objectively exists.
However subjective references and evidences are massive that something
we call God exists, even if we cannot define it, confine it or
comprehend it enough to describe it well enough to manufacture some
technical way to prove it. 100,000 years of human history posits some
sort of deity. Now, either all of those humans for all those years
were illogical, irrational beings, incapable of making any sort of
rational judgements, or, rationalism and faith have co-existed from
the dawn of our history to the present time and for whatever reason,
subjectively, God exists for the majority of humanity in one form or
another. This means that relative to humanity, God exists. Once again,
this does not make it "logical" proof of God. But if one hundred men
have seen an elephant, and attempted a description which sound very
much like an elephant, Big, grey, tusks, a trunk, wrinkly skin, etc.
and one man says they are wrong, they saw no elephant, but cannot
describe what it is they saw, then we have to assume they saw the
elephant and the one man did not. Logic in the end is a great workable
system for scientific analysis and argumentation. But you cannot argue
against another person's faith. It is not within logical capacity to
do so and is, in the end, unless the person is badgering you, not
really rational to argue with someone over their faith.
Saint
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: Why fear of God is stupid |
22 Nov 2003 09:23:17 PM |
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In article <bpogsl$1pplb0$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de>,
whisperindave@msn.com says...
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
What he's saying, as an atheist, is that he doesn't believe in any
god. Same as you -
I do believe in God.
You don't believe in the thousands of alleged gods of other religions,
however. As Al said, I simply believe in one fewer than you do.
Your translation is not necessary. I do speak English.
Perhaps, but you don't appear to write it or read it very well.
the only difference is that he lacks belief in one
more god than you do.
Choosing not to believe is not the same as "lacking" belief.
I think I know what you're trying to say, but you fucked it up as per
usual. In actual fact, even a person who "chose" to not believe would
lack belief. However, you make the dubious suggestion that believing is
a matter of choice, rather than being convinced by the evidence. That
shows how empty your so-called faith is. You appear to think that life
is about nothing more than attempting to force yourself to believe
magical nonsense, so that santa christ will reward you for your loyal
effort in heaven.
Fallacy of shifting the burden.
There is no fallacy here.
The fallacy is in criticizing atheism for not doing your homework for
you.
Making a a statement of faith is not based on
logic.
That's for sure.
Faith cannot be either proved or disproved by logic.
It would depend on what you mean. Some theologians distinguish between
faith and "blind faith".
Your proof that your god DOES exist?
There is no substantial objective proof that any God exists.
There's not even a coherent definition of god which can usually be
furnished by mainline religions.
However, since
my God has saved my life
Yawn. Exaggerations and personal anecdotes of this type are
traditionally the least reliable information around.
many times over, I would suppose I am living proof
The only thing you're living proof of, is that theist rots the brain.
that my God exists.
Nope. Try again. That "proof", after you just admitted that there was
no proof of gawd, really, really sucked.
I ned only prove it to myself.
Wrong. You need to prove it to others or you will be taken for the crack
pot and the liar that theist blowhards of your ilk are labelled.
Not to anyone else. I am
not prostletyzing.
Try clicking on the spell check button before spewing out more garbage.
Thanks.
There is a God.
Merely your assertion.
This is an article of Faith. Not an assertion per se.
An article of faith is an assertion.
I was speaking only to
the Faithful. The assertion here is for faithful people.
You're asserting it to us. It's not jus *for* faithful people. It would
be nice if you kept your nonsense to yourself, but you can't seem to
manage that.
Which I have enough
to argue with. Fear of God IS stupid, because God does NOT want you to fear
God.
I wouldn't fear the ***** even if he were real. There is nothing
that he can to me to make me voluntarily act other than I please. He
might use his magic powers to force me to do certain things, but
presumably he could have done that from the very beginning and not gone
through the whole charade.
This is an article of my faith. You may believe there is no God, or
there are several gods, or that God is an octopus. But that doesn't mean it
is true. However who am I to lambaste you for worshiping an octopus?
Ummm....you might want to put the bong down for a while...
There is absolutely no need to fear God.
Of course there isn't. Or any objective evidence that any god
objectively exists.
However subjective references and evidences are massive
Subjective evidence is massive for every crazy thing from faked moon
landings and the flat earth to hindu maharishis being able to fly by
contracting their sphincter muscles.
that something we
call God exists,
No, not really. Very little of what you folks trade in counts as
evidence at all. A book claiming that people claim to have seen Jebus
walk on water is not *evidence*. It is only repeated assertion and
question begging.
even if we cannot define it
If you cannot define it then you cannot speak intelligibly about it.
It's like saying, "I believe X exists". Unless we know what X is, we
can't meaningfully evaluate the claim.
, confine it or comprehend it
Again, if you can't comprehend what you believe in any way, then it's
impossible to claim you have a belief about something.
enough to describe it well enough to manufacture some technical way to prove
it. 100,000 years of human history posits some sort of deity.
No they don't. Even assuming that you accept the results of recent human
archeaology, it certainly has not been established that they worshipped a
single deity.
Now, either
all of those humans for all those years were illogical
That would be ad populum.
, irrational beings,
incapable of making any sort of rational judgements,
People can make mistakes. That doesn't necessarily mean that they are
irrational or have no ability to make intelligent judgments.
or, rationalism and
faith have co-existed from the dawn of our history
They have not. There was undoubtedly a time when man was neither highly
rational, nor did he have faith. Think about many animals you see in the
wild. Many of them do not appear to be particularly deep thinkers and
they certainly don't show evidence of religious faith.
to the present time and
for whatever reason, subjectively, God exists
Nice false alternative. Those aren't the only options. As far as god
existing subjectively, you've conveniently moved the goal posts and
assumed that it makes any sense to talk about something existing
subjectively. When distinguishing between the real and the imaginary the
standard we apply is that belief is not enough. The asserted existence
has to be verifiably true, according to data that can in principle be
objectively collected. To say that god exists subjectively is no better
than saying that mickey mouse exists subjectively. By this standard,
literally anything could be said to exist.
for the majority of humanity
in one form or another.
That's another bogus piece of theist illogic. They use conflicting
stories of different cultural traditions and myths as evidence for their
god. It would be like me arguing that people from all over the world
confirm the existence of a unicorn because in some stories they talk
about an animal similar to a snake, whereas in others they talk about
something like a gopher and in still others they talk about something
like a bat. The various different god stories of ancient people are so
different that they in no way corroborate the general monotheism concept.
This means that relative to humanity, God exists.
Yes and relative to an outhouse you're still full of *****.
Once again, this does not make it "logical" proof of God.
My, my your god is starting to sound like a post-modernist abstraction.
But if one hundred
men have seen an elephant, and attempted a description which sound very much
like an elephant, Big, grey, tusks, a trunk, wrinkly skin, etc. and one man
says they are wrong, they saw no elephant, but cannot describe what it is
they saw, then we have to assume they saw the elephant and the one man did
not.
Naw. It helps if the naysayer can offer theories about what people saw,
but it's not necessary. It's been well established that eye-witness
testimony is quite unreliable. Some people are prone to imaginative
embellishment of what actually happened. Other times, whole groups of
people appear to convince themselves that they see what they want to see
(usually with the help of a little peyote or lsd).
Logic in the end is a great workable system for scientific analysis and
argumentation. But you cannot argue against another person's faith.
I can point out that some of their doctrines appear to be at odds with
empirical evidence and that some of their assertions appear internally
inconsistent, among other things.
It is
not within logical capacity to do so
Correction. It's not within your logical capacity, but that' hardly
surprising.
and is, in the end, unless the person
is badgering you, not really rational to argue with someone over their
faith.
So badgering causes propositions to shift from irrational to rational?
--
_____________________________________________________
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Why fear of God is stupid |
23 Nov 2003 12:38:11 AM |
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On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 13:28:06 -0700, "angelicusrex"
<whisperindave@msn.com> posted in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
What he's saying, as an atheist, is that he doesn't believe in any
god. Same as you -
I do believe in God. Your translation is not necessary. I do speak English.
the only difference is that he lacks belief in one
more god than you do.
Choosing not to believe is not the same as "lacking" belief.
Yes, which is why we're atheists - we lack belief. Some atheists,
it's true, choose to not believe, but atheism is about lacking belief,
not about why one lacks belief. Many Christians are Italian. Does
that mean that the definition of "Christian" includes having been born
in Italy? If your god exists, he must have given you that brain for a
reason. Use it.
Fallacy of shifting the burden.
There is no fallacy here.
Not here, but there was in the post I responded to.
Making a a statement of faith is not based on
logic. Faith cannot be either proved or disproved by logic.
If you make an existentially positive assertion you assume the burden
of proof, regardless of the reason you made the assertion.
Your proof that your god DOES exist?
There is no substantial objective proof that any God exists.
Then no one is interested in your assertions that yours does.
However, since
my God has saved my life many times over, I would suppose I am living proof
that my God exists.
Assertions (that's all yours is) aren't proof of anything more than
that they were made.
I ned only prove it to myself. Not to anyone else. I am
not prostletyzing.
No, you're making an existentially positive assertion, so you prove
it, withdraw it or be taken for a fool by any rational people who hear
you.
There is a God.
Merely your assertion.
This is an article of Faith.
Regardless of whether it is or not, it's still merely your assertion.
Not an assertion per se.
It's either an assertion or a statement backed up by objective
evidence. Since you claim there is no objective evidence to back it
up, you're saying that it IS merely an assertion. Not my problem if
you can't think very clearly.
I was speaking only to the Faithful.
In alt.atheism? Not too smart of you, then.
There is absolutely no need to fear God.
Of course there isn't. Or any objective evidence that any god
objectively exists.
However subjective references
Otherwise known as "opinions", therefore worthless to anyone but the
person holding them.
--
"Christians, it is needless to say, utterly detest each other. They slander each
other constantly with the vilest forms of abuse and cannot come to any sort of
agreement in their teachings. Each sect brands its own, fills the head of its own
with deceitful nonsense, and makes perfect little pigs of those it wins over to its
side."
- Celsus (2nd century C.E.)
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "angelicusrex" |
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| Title: Re: Why fear of God is stupid |
23 Nov 2003 02:44:24 PM |
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Only idiots and obsessed people continue to split hairs like you atheists
do.
You lack belief because you CHOOSE not to believe, not because belief
somehow stopped dwelling in you. You try and use your brain. You actually
"believe" you have given up belief. Which is in itself, a belief.
Atheists believe in something. Just not God. And since I do believe in God,
why is it necessary that we speak to one another at all? This is a waste of
both our time and energy.
Saint 0;-)
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Why fear of God is stupid |
23 Nov 2003 04:47:10 PM |
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"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bpr673$1rkf49$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de...
Only idiots and obsessed people continue to split hairs like you atheists
do.
You lack belief because you CHOOSE not to believe, not because belief
somehow stopped dwelling in you. You try and use your brain. You actually
"believe" you have given up belief. Which is in itself, a belief.
We lack belief because there is no evidence for a god.
Atheists believe in something. Just not God. And since I do believe in
God,
why is it necessary that we speak to one another at all? This is a waste
of
both our time and energy.
Then stop crossposting to alt.atheism.
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| User: "angelicusrex" |
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| Title: Re: Why fear of God is stupid |
23 Nov 2003 11:04:32 PM |
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"Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net> wrote in message
We lack belief because there is no evidence for a god.
There is evidence for a God. It's all around you and indwelling you. You
simply refuse to believe what is obvious. You say there is no evidence
because it makes it easier to believe that there is nothing to believe in.
I have no personal 'evidence' that there are tiny mites living in my
eyebrows. Only scientists with powerful electron microscopes and lots of
money and time can find this fact out. They relay it to us and we tend to
believe it. You have no personal evidence that there is a God. Yet if
someone tells you that you can have the evidence, free, no charge and
nothing to have faith in even if you do find out there is a God, you will
continue to argue against it. "It makes no sense! It is not logical!" You
say. "There is no evidence!" And you keep saying it over and over like a
battle cry.
The very fact that you are here talking about it rationally in a world which
allows you to have food on your plate every night and a computer to play
with, is proof of God working in your life. Instead of sharing your good
fortune with others, or finding out how you can make a real difference in
our world, you would rather play the hair-splitting game. Thankfully God
allows even for that.
Now, you bastards crossposted to our NG first. And you are still there,
every day spreading your creepy materialistic world view around like it was
the New Gospel. You take alt.religion.angels out of your headers and stop
telling people who do believe in God and Angels to stop believing.
Otherwise, crossposting will go one between us. You people proselytize as
much as any bunch of fundies or Jehovah's Witnesses, and you pat one another
on the back about it as well! "We're Atheists and we're proud! We see no
evidence of God, that makes us smarter than the rest!" Essentially how is
this different from any other group of people who all believe the same
thing? You might as well be a cult or a political party or a lodge or any
other group of people who all thinkthey finally have the secret answer to
the universe.
You are fooling yourselves.
Saint
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| User: "the cutest atheist" |
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| Title: Re: Why fear of God is stupid |
24 Nov 2003 02:44:55 AM |
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"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message
news:bps3gp$1ribis$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de...
"Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net> wrote in message
We lack belief because there is no evidence for a god.
There is evidence for a God. It's all around you and indwelling you.
and indistinguishable from a natural world that's not god
You
simply refuse to believe what is obvious. You say there is no evidence
because it makes it easier to believe that there is nothing to believe in.
I have no personal 'evidence' that there are tiny mites living in my
eyebrows. Only scientists with powerful electron microscopes and lots of
money and time can find this fact out.
actually, such things are multicellular and can be viewed with an ordinary
microscope. you could do it yourself with a layman's one, in fact, you just
don't care enough to go and check facts, and instead go around stating
idiocy as if it's fact (electron microscopes are used to look at
intra-cellular machinery and incredibly tiny chemical structures), by this I
mean your poor grasp of science and your tight grasp on a faith that no one
here in AA can experience, because it's *all in your head.* The fabulous
thing about science is that you can test it out for yourself, people have
the same results independantly. Religion is just new-age shite dressed in
tradition, where people go along with their own as well as a shared fantasy.
They relay it to us and we tend to
believe it. You have no personal evidence that there is a God. Yet if
someone tells you that you can have the evidence, free, no charge and
nothing to have faith in even if you do find out there is a God, you will
continue to argue against it. "It makes no sense! It is not logical!"
if we have evidence, I believe there is not one of us here who would not
accept that god exists. there is NO evidence. zero. not a fucking scrap, not
one bit the size of the mites in your eyebrows. ABSOLUTELY ***** ALL
EVIDENCE. I wish there was a god, but I'm not going to get sucked into a
delusion just because I want it to be true
You
say. "There is no evidence!" And you keep saying it over and over like a
battle cry.
The very fact that you are here talking about it rationally in a world
which
allows you to have food on your plate every night and a computer to play
with, is proof of God working in your life.
most of the world lives in poverty, fuckhead. where's god in that?
Instead of sharing your good
fortune with others, or finding out how you can make a real difference in
our world,
I believe atheists are in fact more charitable people. we had a thread not
long ago in AA about that very thing. you're just spouting nonsense again
you would rather play the hair-splitting game. Thankfully God
allows even for that.
Now, you bastards crossposted to our NG first. And you are still there,
every day spreading your creepy materialistic world view around like it
was
the New Gospel.
ATHEISM IS NOT A RIVAL RELIGION
You take alt.religion.angels out of your headers and stop
telling people who do believe in God and Angels to stop believing.
Otherwise, crossposting will go one between us. You people proselytize as
much as any bunch of fundies or Jehovah's Witnesses, and you pat one
another
on the back about it as well! "We're Atheists and we're proud! We see no
evidence of God, that makes us smarter than the rest!" Essentially how is
this different from any other group of people who all believe the same
thing? You might as well be a cult or a political party or a lodge or any
other group of people who all thinkthey finally have the secret answer to
the universe.
we have no objectives though, not even converting you. you seem to be the
absolute source of all fallacies o divine one. too bad there's no afterlife,
we can't rub in the fact that we were right and didn't waste our lives
You are fooling yourselves.
I'm rubber, you're glue
<smirk>
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| User: "Billy Goat" |
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| Title: Re: Why fear of God is stupid |
24 Nov 2003 11:13:54 PM |
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"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message news:<bps3gp$1ribis$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de>...
"Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net> wrote in message
We lack belief because there is no evidence for a god.
There is evidence for a God. It's all around you and indwelling you. You
simply refuse to believe what is obvious.
Is it obvious that God had a son named Jesus? Is it obvious that God
demands bloodshed as payment for sins? Is it obvious that the first
woman met a talking snake? Is it obvious that Heaven and Hell exist?
Is Purgatory obvious? Is it obvious that some angels have four animal
faces and six wings?
How much of your religion truly is obvious?
--Billy
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| User: "Barry OGrady" |
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| Title: Re: Why fear of God is stupid |
26 Nov 2003 07:51:01 PM |
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On 24 Nov 2003 21:13:54 -0800, (Billy Goat) wrote:
"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote in message news:<bps3gp$1ribis$1@ID-168098.news.uni-berlin.de>...
"Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net> wrote in message
We lack belief because there is no evidence for a god.
There is evidence for a God. It's all around you and indwelling you. You
simply refuse to believe what is obvious.
Is it obvious that God had a son named Jesus? Is it obvious that God
demands bloodshed as payment for sins? Is it obvious that the first
woman met a talking snake? Is it obvious that Heaven and Hell exist?
Is Purgatory obvious? Is it obvious that some angels have four animal
faces and six wings?
How much of your religion truly is obvious?
It's obvious there is no good God.
--Billy
-Barry
========
Web page: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~barry.og
Atheist, radio scanner, LIPD information.
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| User: "t_nasimith" |
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| Title: Re: Why fear of God is stupid |
24 Nov 2003 12:09:25 AM |
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"angelicusrex" wrote:
"Mike Painter" wrote:
We lack belief because there is no evidence for a god.
"angelicusrex" made this claim:
There is evidence for a God. It's all around you and indwelling you.
This is as sophist as if you were to claim that the "evidence" for
'invisible purple creator gnomes' is all around and within. Your
false attributions are challenged. Support your claim.
You
simply refuse to believe what is obvious. You say there is no evidence
because it makes it easier to believe that there is nothing to believe in.
Non sequitur. It is not "obvious" merely because you announce that
it is so. There is no evidence which _does not_ require belief/faith
and therefore, no objective evidence has been presented. Subjective
evidence is a two-fold misnomer.
I have no personal 'evidence' that there are tiny mites living in my
eyebrows.
Such a thing only emphasizes your ignorance of a fact, not the
lack of mites. The 'line of unreasoning' which follows, does so
from a false premise:
Only scientists with powerful electron microscopes and lots of
money and time can find this fact out. They relay it to us and we tend to
believe it. You have no personal evidence that there is a God. Yet if
someone tells you that you can have the evidence, free, no charge and
nothing to have faith in even if you do find out there is a God, you will
continue to argue against it. "It makes no sense! It is not logical!" You
say. "There is no evidence!" And you keep saying it over and over like a
battle cry.
You have not supported your initial claim and have further failed to
produce the same sort of 'evidence' that your mite-hunters can produce.
Where is your invisible 'god-mite', "angelicusrex"?
The very fact that you are here talking about it rationally in a world
which
allows you to have food on your plate every night and a computer to play
with, is proof of God working in your life.
No, such things are the result of humans using tools which other humans
developed to accomplish those ends. Trying to slip some invisible mite-god
into the works is specious.
Instead of sharing your good
fortune with others, or finding out how you can make a real difference in
our world, you would rather play the hair-splitting game. Thankfully God
allows even for that.
These are not hairs, they are refutations of your irrational belief system
and you are naturally defensive about that happening. No mite-gods had
to allow it, it remains the result of something you find difficult to use;
critical
thinking.
You take alt.religion.angels out of your headers and stop
telling people who do believe in God and Angels to stop believing.
On the contrary, you may wallow in whichever self-delusions strike
your fancy, "analicusrex". When you let your delusions loose upon
the readers of Usenet, expect some to guffaw at your nonsense.
We are fooling ourselves.
Saint
Faith is an insidious mirage, without a doubt.
T.N.
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| User: "angelicusrex" |
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| Title: Re: Why fear of God is stupid |
24 Nov 2003 07:04:55 PM |
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"t_nasimith" <t_naismith@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:bps758
On the contrary, you may wallow in whichever self-delusions strike
your fancy, "analicusrex".
The above statement proves you are a moron. I don't have too many dealings
with morons, if I can help it. So *****.
Saint
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| User: "t_nasimith" |
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| Title: Re: Why fear of God is stupid |
24 Nov 2003 07:30:10 PM |
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"analicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote:
"t_nasimith" wrote <after dave feared the context>:
On the contrary, you may wallow in whichever self-delusions strike
your fancy, "analicusrex".
The above statement proves you are a moron.
No, the above statement indicates that you've snipped the entirety
of a post which refuted your nonsense. Then you became defensive
and posted a random ad hominem in response.
I don't have too many dealings
with morons, if I can help it.
If this is your 'finely articulated' way of admitting that you
cannot substantiate your nonsense, your concession is
accepted. Now, would you prefer your head piked or
do you have a brave run-away speech to utter first?
So *****.
I applaud your surrender speech for it's brevity, "analickrex".
T.N.
Saint Deluded
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| User: "Nevermore" |
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| Title: Re: Why fear of God is stupid |
24 Nov 2003 07:45:43 PM |
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In <bpub63$1rsli5$1@ID-140581.news.uni-berlin.de> t_nasimith wrote:
"analicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote:
"t_nasimith" wrote <after dave feared the context>:
On the contrary, you may wallow in whichever self-delusions strike
your fancy, "analicusrex".
The above statement proves you are a moron.
No, the above statement indicates that you've snipped the entirety
of a post which refuted your nonsense. Then you became defensive
and posted a random ad hominem in response.
I don't have too many dealings
with morons, if I can help it.
If this is your 'finely articulated' way of admitting that you
cannot substantiate your nonsense, your concession is
accepted. Now, would you prefer your head piked or
do you have a brave run-away speech to utter first?
So *****.
I applaud your surrender speech for it's brevity, "analickrex".
T.N.
Saint Deluded
Since the Goddess of Groundhogs is in hibernation I will take the
liberty of awarding the head of Saint to Trevor. Pike it proudly.
Nevermore
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| User: "t_nasimith" |
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| Title: Re: Why fear of God is stupid |
24 Nov 2003 08:19:45 PM |
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"Nevermore" wrote:
"t_nasimith" wrote:
"analicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wrote:
"t_nasimith" wrote <after dave feared the context>:
On the contrary, you may wallow in whichever self-delusions strike
your fancy, "analicusrex".
The above statement proves you are a moron.
No, the above statement indicates that you've snipped the entirety
of a post which refuted your nonsense. Then you became defensive
and posted a random ad hominem in response.
I don't have too many dealings
with morons, if I can help it.
If this is your 'finely articulated' way of admitting that you
cannot substantiate your nonsense, your concession is
accepted. Now, would you prefer your head piked or
do you have a brave run-away speech to utter first?
So *****.
I applaud your surrender speech for it's brevity, "analickrex".
T.N.
Saint Deluded
Since the Goddess of Groundhogs is in hibernation I will take the
liberty of awarding the head of Saint to Trevor. Pike it proudly.
Nevermore
Well, if the head-shrinking ceremonies are complete, I
suppose 'Saint Deluded's' head can be join the other lawn
ornament pikes.
They also make for passable tikki-torches
during solstice rituals.
T.N.
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| User: "angelicusrex" |
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| Title: Re: Why fear of God is stupid |
24 Nov 2003 07:02:36 PM |
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Please read my post to Mr. Martin Crisp at alt.atheism. It explains
everything.
Saint
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| User: "Zsarnok" |
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| Title: Re: Why fear of God is stupid |
25 Nov 2003 12:02:53 AM |
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Everything? So your's is an all-encompassing delusion, then.
Zsarnok
angelicusrex wrote:
Please read my post to Mr. Martin Crisp at alt.atheism. It explains
everything.
Saint
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| User: "t_nasimith" |
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| Title: Re: Why fear of God is stupid |
25 Nov 2003 12:33:41 AM |
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That one thinks he was Jeebus' teacher and uncle 'Dave'.
Then he woke up screaming that his little paper pill-cup
had somehow gone empty.
"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wigs out:
"penitent leper" wrote:
[...]
They never said anything about Jesus, so how do you verify this
historically?
Because I was there. I was one of his teachers. So maybe someday I'll dig
out my old letters. Until then, you'll have to take it as an article of my
faith.
"Zsarnok" wrote:
Everything? So your's is an all-encompassing delusion, then.
Zsarnok
angelicusrex wrote:
Please read my post to Mr. Martin Crisp at alt.atheism. It explains
everything.
Saint
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| User: "Zsarnok" |
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| Title: Re: Why fear of God is stupid |
25 Nov 2003 12:41:49 AM |
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It is more than a little frightening to watch. Like a death vigil.
Zsarnok
t_nasimith wrote:
That one thinks he was Jeebus' teacher and uncle 'Dave'.
Then he woke up screaming that his little paper pill-cup
had somehow gone empty.
"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wigs out:
"penitent leper" wrote:
[...]
They never said anything about Jesus, so how do you verify this
historically?
Because I was there. I was one of his teachers. So maybe someday I'll dig
out my old letters. Until then, you'll have to take it as an article of my
faith.
"Zsarnok" wrote:
Everything? So your's is an all-encompassing delusion, then.
Zsarnok
angelicusrex wrote:
Please read my post to Mr. Martin Crisp at alt.atheism. It explains
everything.
Saint
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| User: "t_nasimith" |
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| Title: Re: Why fear of God is stupid |
25 Nov 2003 05:02:51 AM |
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One would hope that if he displays such derangements offline,
they'll net him and send him to the paper cup place of pills.
"Zsarnok" wrote:
It is more than a little frightening to watch. Like a death vigil.
Zsarnok
"t_nasimith" wrote:
That one thinks he was Jeebus' teacher and uncle 'Dave'.
Then he woke up screaming that his little paper pill-cup
had somehow gone empty.
"angelicusrex" <whisperindave@msn.com> wigs out:
"penitent leper" wrote:
[...]
They never said anything about Jesus, so how do you verify this
historically?
Because I was there. I was one of his teachers. So maybe someday I'll
dig
out my old letters. Until then, you'll have to take it as an article of
my
faith.
"Zsarnok" wrote:
Everything? So your's is an all-encompassing delusion, then.
Zsarnok
angelicusrex wrote:
Please read my post to Mr. Martin Crisp at alt.atheism. It explains
everything.
Saint
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| User: "Anatid Bonecki" |
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| Title: Re: Why fear of God is stupid |
25 Nov 2003 11:49:45 AM |
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"Zsarnok" wrote:
It is more than a little frightening to watch. Like a death vigil.
Zsarnok
"t_nasimith" wrote:
That one thinks he was Jeebus' teacher and uncle 'Dave'.
Then he woke up screaming that his little paper pill-cup
had somehow gone empty.
Sounds like you have a lot of experience with mental institutions. Are
you a doctor or a patient?
Anatid
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